I would like to plug a 220V welder into my dryer outlet, since that is
the only 220V outlet I have. But the house I'm renting is old enough
that the dryer outlet is a hot-hot-neutral outlet with no separate
ground. Would there be any problem (either in terms of the electrical
code or in terms of risk to myself or the equipment or the house) with
using the neutral wire as the grounding wire for the welder? Of
course, I'll need a plug adaptor -- I thought I'd use a 3-wire dryer
cord and connect the pigtails to an outlet matching the welder plug.

Thanks for any advice.

Bert

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 10:56:25 GMT, Bert wrote:

I would like to plug a 220V welder into my dryer outlet, since that is
the only 220V outlet I have. But the house I'm renting is old enough
that the dryer outlet is a hot-hot-neutral outlet with no separate
ground. Would there be any problem (either in terms of the electrical
code or in terms of risk to myself or the equipment or the house) with
using the neutral wire as the grounding wire for the welder? Of
course, I'll need a plug adaptor -- I thought I'd use a 3-wire dryer
cord and connect the pigtails to an outlet matching the welder plug.

Thanks for any advice.

Bert



Bert,

Don't do it lad. The dryer outlet is usually only rated for 20 amps.
For a 220v welder you'll likely need 50 amps.

As far as the wiring part goes, yes it would work, but the risk of
overload is much too great.

I had a similar problem in my house. I ended up getting a sub-panel
installed, with the appropriate sized wiring and breakers. If your
house panel and line in from the pole isn't rated for at least 100
amps, you would be taking quite a chance.

It may end up costing you a bit of money, but the cost is peanuts
compared to having a fire.


Hope this helps,

Intrepid

Bert...........It depends on the welder that you are planning on plugging
into it. My HH175 is 220volt and came with a 6-50 plug on it. I wired up a
220volt 20amp circuit using #12 copper wire as per the owners manual. My
Dynasty 200DX and Spectrum 375 plasma cutter plug into the same receptacle.
They all work very nicely on this circuit ( one at a time of course ). Your
requirements will be determined by the welder you are planning on using. You
will have to read the owners manual to see what is required. DO NOT PUT A
LARGER AMP BREAKER IN THE DRYER CIRCUIT. If you pull too many amps for the
present circuit the breaker will trip. Remember that the breaker is there to
protect the wiring not the device plugged into it. I would assume that the
present breaker and wiring are properly sized but you should check to be
sure. If you have any doubts check with a qualied electrician. Good luck.


"Bert" wrote in message
...
I would like to plug a 220V welder into my dryer outlet, since that is
the only 220V outlet I have. But the house I'm renting is old enough
that the dryer outlet is a hot-hot-neutral outlet with no separate
ground. Would there be any problem (either in terms of the electrical
code or in terms of risk to myself or the equipment or the house) with
using the neutral wire as the grounding wire for the welder? Of
course, I'll need a plug adaptor -- I thought I'd use a 3-wire dryer
cord and connect the pigtails to an outlet matching the welder plug.

Thanks for any advice.

Bert

I would like to plug a 220V welder into my dryer outlet

Two thoughts:

If you have an electric stove, check that too.

I use a 225A buzzbox on a 30A dryer circuit with no
problems, with this caveat: I've never used more than
120A, so am only drawing about 30A or less from the
input side. If yours is 30A and all you're welding
is 1/8" or so angle iron and the like, you'll be fine.
If you're laying down multiple passes of 3/16 rod to
weld 1/2" plate, you will probably have issues.

If this is a wire welder, someone else will have to
give you their take on whether this would work. We
can give you better information if you mention the
size of the breaker/fuse for this circuit and the
make and model of the welder...

--Glenn Lyford

Doesn't mean its right or wrong, but my welder is plugged into a 3 lead 220
line, the real electrician said I would only need the separate ground if I was
planning on tapping off a 110 outlet at the end. (I think that is what he said,
time fades memories)

John H.

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 10:56:25 GMT, Bert wrote:

I would like to plug a 220V welder into my dryer outlet, since that is
the only 220V outlet I have. But the house I'm renting is old enough
that the dryer outlet is a hot-hot-neutral outlet with no separate
ground. Would there be any problem (either in terms of the electrical
code or in terms of risk to myself or the equipment or the house) with
using the neutral wire as the grounding wire for the welder?

You can use that 3-wire circuit, since there is no neutral load
(120V devices) in any welders I've seen. The neutral wire is bonded
to ground at the main panel, so for all practical purposes they're the
same thing - but they don't want you connecting any load returns (like
the dryer drum light or the oven light) to the safety ground.

All new installs are supposed to be 4-wire with separate neutral and
ground. Old installs are grandfathered as-is, but you can change
them over to 4-wire if you want, and can (if they're in conduit or you
have 4-wire Romex in the walls).

Of
course, I'll need a plug adaptor -- I thought I'd use a 3-wire dryer
cord and connect the pigtails to an outlet matching the welder plug.

Will work fine - but make sure the breaker is rated to protect the
wires, don't change it out for a larger one. And if you crank the
welder up all the way and start laying big beads, you might trip it
out.

If the main panel is convenient to the garage and has some capacity
left, you can add your own 50A welder receptacle - unless you have an
oddball main panel like a Zinsco or ITE Pushmatic, it can be done for
under $50 in parts. Just use a short piece of flex conduit and put a
surface mount plug below the panel - or if the panel is on the outside
of the garage wall, use a nipple out the back of the panel can, and
surface mount a 4S box right behind it in the garage.

Buy the breaker seal and knockout plug now, and you can remove it
all fast and plug the holes when you move. Or just remove the breaker
and receptacle and blank off the new 4S box, leave the box so the next
renter can use it.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Thanks for the info, Bruce. I've got a couple more questions below if
you don't mind.

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

You can use that 3-wire circuit, since there is no neutral load
(120V devices) in any welders I've seen. The neutral wire is bonded
to ground at the main panel, so for all practical purposes they're the
same thing - but they don't want you connecting any load returns (like
the dryer drum light or the oven light) to the safety ground.

That's what I thought; I just wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking
some nuance of the neutral line concept that would end up wreaking
havoc on my welder (or me!).

Of
course, I'll need a plug adaptor -- I thought I'd use a 3-wire dryer
cord and connect the pigtails to an outlet matching the welder plug.

Will work fine - but make sure the breaker is rated to protect the
wires, don't change it out for a larger one. And if you crank the
welder up all the way and start laying big beads, you might trip it
out.

The welder specs say that max output for TIG mode requires a 208V/32A
or 230V/29A input circuit; for max stick output, the required input is
208V/40A or 230V/38A. My dryer circuit is 30A and I measured the
voltage to be about 240V. So, I don't expect any problems for TIG; for
stick, I'll have to stay below max to keep from tripping the breaker,
but I expect I'll be using TIG mode 90 % of the time anyway.

If the main panel is convenient to the garage and has some capacity
left, you can add your own 50A welder receptacle - unless you have an
oddball main panel like a Zinsco or ITE Pushmatic, it can be done for
under $50 in parts. Just use a short piece of flex conduit and put a
surface mount plug below the panel - or if the panel is on the outside
of the garage wall, use a nipple out the back of the panel can, and
surface mount a 4S box right behind it in the garage.

Adding a welder receptacle in the garage is what I would like to do,
but I'm not sure that's an (economical) option. The main panel has
only one empty breaker slot, but I assume I would need two slots for a
new 240V circuit, correct? That means I would have to add another
panel (at a cost considerably higher than $50), right? Or are there
other options? Could I for instance connect both the welder outlet and
the range outlet to the same 50A breaker (and still meet code)?

Bert

Depending on the specific brand and configuration of the breaker panel,
you might be able to get a double 120volt breaker. These have two 120
volt breakers in one housing that is ONE slot wide. That should free up
the slot you need to put the 240 breaker which takes two slots. Not all
the brands have these available.

Bert wrote:
Thanks for the info, Bruce. I've got a couple more questions below if
you don't mind.

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:


You can use that 3-wire circuit, since there is no neutral load
(120V devices) in any welders I've seen. The neutral wire is bonded
to ground at the main panel, so for all practical purposes they're the
same thing - but they don't want you connecting any load returns (like
the dryer drum light or the oven light) to the safety ground.


That's what I thought; I just wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking
some nuance of the neutral line concept that would end up wreaking
havoc on my welder (or me!).


Of
course, I'll need a plug adaptor -- I thought I'd use a 3-wire dryer
cord and connect the pigtails to an outlet matching the welder plug.

Will work fine - but make sure the breaker is rated to protect the
wires, don't change it out for a larger one. And if you crank the
welder up all the way and start laying big beads, you might trip it
out.


The welder specs say that max output for TIG mode requires a 208V/32A
or 230V/29A input circuit; for max stick output, the required input is
208V/40A or 230V/38A. My dryer circuit is 30A and I measured the
voltage to be about 240V. So, I don't expect any problems for TIG; for
stick, I'll have to stay below max to keep from tripping the breaker,
but I expect I'll be using TIG mode 90 % of the time anyway.


If the main panel is convenient to the garage and has some capacity
left, you can add your own 50A welder receptacle - unless you have an
oddball main panel like a Zinsco or ITE Pushmatic, it can be done for
under $50 in parts. Just use a short piece of flex conduit and put a
surface mount plug below the panel - or if the panel is on the outside
of the garage wall, use a nipple out the back of the panel can, and
surface mount a 4S box right behind it in the garage.


Adding a welder receptacle in the garage is what I would like to do,
but I'm not sure that's an (economical) option. The main panel has
only one empty breaker slot, but I assume I would need two slots for a
new 240V circuit, correct? That means I would have to add another
panel (at a cost considerably higher than $50), right? Or are there
other options? Could I for instance connect both the welder outlet and
the range outlet to the same 50A breaker (and still meet code)?

Bert

I have a simular question..Just got a Miller Syncrowave 180SD and the
manual shows connecting to a lock out box... I want to be able to move
it around the shop... I have 3 wall mounted plug-ins ( dryer type plugs)
connected to a 50 amp breaker. Can I just wire it up with a dryer type plug?
Jack

P.S. thanks for any thoughts anybody has on this..

Bert wrote:
I would like to plug a 220V welder into my dryer outlet, since that is
the only 220V outlet I have. But the house I'm renting is old enough
that the dryer outlet is a hot-hot-neutral outlet with no separate
ground. Would there be any problem (either in terms of the electrical
code or in terms of risk to myself or the equipment or the house) with
using the neutral wire as the grounding wire for the welder? Of
course, I'll need a plug adaptor -- I thought I'd use a 3-wire dryer
cord and connect the pigtails to an outlet matching the welder plug.

Thanks for any advice.

Bert

Jack wrote:

I have a simular question..Just got a Miller Syncrowave 180SD and the
manual shows connecting to a lock out box... I want to be able to move
it around the shop... I have 3 wall mounted plug-ins ( dryer type plugs)
connected to a 50 amp breaker. Can I just wire it up with a dryer type plug?
Jack

P.S. thanks for any thoughts anybody has on this..

Bert wrote:
I would like to plug a 220V welder into my dryer outlet, since that is
the only 220V outlet I have. But the house I'm renting is old enough
that the dryer outlet is a hot-hot-neutral outlet with no separate
ground. Would there be any problem (either in terms of the electrical
code or in terms of risk to myself or the equipment or the house) with
using the neutral wire as the grounding wire for the welder? Of
course, I'll need a plug adaptor -- I thought I'd use a 3-wire dryer
cord and connect the pigtails to an outlet matching the welder plug.

Thanks for any advice.

Bert



Yes! That's what the electritions did to the one in my shop at work. I
think they were also looking forward to the time when physical plant
people might need to borrow it (which the recently did). If I remember
right the manual called for a 60 A circuit, but if you don't run it at
max it shouldn't be a problem.

Ken Moffett wrote:
Jack wrote:

I have a simular question..Just got a Miller Syncrowave 180SD and the
manual shows connecting to a lock out box... I want to be able to move
it around the shop... I have 3 wall mounted plug-ins ( dryer type plugs)
connected to a 50 amp breaker. Can I just wire it up with a dryer type plug?
Jack

P.S. thanks for any thoughts anybody has on this..

Bert wrote:

I would like to plug a 220V welder into my dryer outlet, since that is
the only 220V outlet I have. But the house I'm renting is old enough
that the dryer outlet is a hot-hot-neutral outlet with no separate
ground. Would there be any problem (either in terms of the electrical
code or in terms of risk to myself or the equipment or the house) with
using the neutral wire as the grounding wire for the welder? Of
course, I'll need a plug adaptor -- I thought I'd use a 3-wire dryer
cord and connect the pigtails to an outlet matching the welder plug.

Thanks for any advice.

Bert




Yes! That's what the electritions did to the one in my shop at work. I
think they were also looking forward to the time when physical plant
people might need to borrow it (which the recently did). If I remember
right the manual called for a 60 A circuit, but if you don't run it at
max it shouldn't be a problem.

thanks, I thought that it would be alright...

The manual said, Max circuit breaker or fuse in amperes:
Time delay = 60 (time delay fuses are class "RH5")
Normal operating = 80 ( UL class "K5" upto and including 60 amp - UL
class "H" 65 amp and above)
Jack

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:31:58 -0600, Jack wrote:

I have a simular question..Just got a Miller Syncrowave 180SD and the
manual shows connecting to a lock out box... I want to be able to move
it around the shop... I have 3 wall mounted plug-ins ( dryer type plugs)
connected to a 50 amp breaker. Can I just wire it up with a dryer type plug?
Jack

In a commercial shop they'll insist on making everything easy to
Lockout & Tagout. If the equipment is hard-wired to the wall, it
always needs a safety switch of some sort (even in a home shop!) - but
if it's cord connected, there's your disconnect.

Just buy one of the Universal Cord Lockouts - or build one, which
can be as simple as an old small toolbox with a notch (or sets of
various sized notches) on the lid and a locking hasp, painted red.
And a padlock that /only one responsible person/ has the key or knows
the combination.

Unplug the welder and stick the plug inside the box, lock the lid
closed, and nobody is going to be plugging it in on you.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:35:14 GMT, Bert wrote:
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

You can use that 3-wire circuit, since there is no neutral load
(120V devices) in any welders I've seen. The neutral wire is bonded
to ground at the main panel, so for all practical purposes they're the
same thing - but they don't want you connecting any load returns (like
the dryer drum light or the oven light) to the safety ground.

That's what I thought; I just wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking
some nuance of the neutral line concept that would end up wreaking
havoc on my welder (or me!).

If the main panel is convenient to the garage and has some capacity
left, you can add your own 50A welder receptacle - unless you have an
oddball main panel like a Zinsco or ITE Pushmatic, it can be done for
under $50 in parts. Just use a short piece of flex conduit and put a
surface mount plug below the panel - or if the panel is on the outside
of the garage wall, use a nipple out the back of the panel can, and
surface mount a 4S box right behind it in the garage.

Adding a welder receptacle in the garage is what I would like to do,
but I'm not sure that's an (economical) option. The main panel has
only one empty breaker slot, but I assume I would need two slots for a
new 240V circuit, correct? That means I would have to add another
panel (at a cost considerably higher than $50), right? Or are there
other options?

Tell us what brand panel you have, the model breakers it takes (or
can take) and what's in there now.

If you still have the label on the panel cover you're golden, it
will tell you whether you can use "duplex" breakers that fill one 1"
slot and give you two circuits, and which slots they will fit in.

Or the "quad" breakers that'll give you one 50A 2-pole for the
welder and two single 15A or 20A poles for the branch circuits you
unplugged to make room. (They also make 250-230 quads that will feed
the welder and dryer or water heater from the same 2" space - but
that's drawing too much power for the bus-bar stabs in most panels,
especially if it's an Aluminum buss panel.)

If the label is missing, does it have the stabs that have a "notch"
in the middle (Cutler Hammer/Challenger or Crouse Hinds/Murray/
Siemens) or the T fitting with the horizontal bar (GE)? That's what
you need to plug in thin breakers.

If it's a Zinsco, does it have "bumps" on the busbars to reject the
RC-38 double breakers? And on Federal Pacific, it needs to have the
right slots punched out on the busbars where the breaker plugs in.

Could I for instance connect both the welder outlet and
the range outlet to the same 50A breaker (and still meet code)?

Strict interpretation, no way. If an inspector sees it, he's not
going to pass it. You're not supposed to make splices inside the
panel for openers. And when you add the second branch breaker he'll
insist on a new load calculation, the numbers of which will probably
call for a service panel upgrade from 100A/125A to 200A, or 200A to
300A/400A"...

But as long as you don't try to cook and weld at the same time, and
you make a neat bolted connection in the panel, go for it. (And
remember that "we never had this conversation"...) ;-P

You'll need to splice the welder leads and the stove leads to a
short chunk of piece-out wire to go into the breaker (split-bolt
puttied and taped, or Polaris insulated splice), and then tuck
everything back in neatly so the cover goes back on.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Bert wrote:
I would like to plug a 220V welder into my dryer outlet, since that is
the only 220V outlet I have. But the house I'm renting is old enough
that the dryer outlet is a hot-hot-neutral outlet with no separate
ground.

I strongly suggest that you clear any renovations with your
landlord. He's gonna want proof that you have a safe work
area and adequate insurance to protect his investment. Then
he's going to want you to hire a competent electrician to do
the work.

Failure to do this might get you evicted.

Stuart

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
| On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:35:14 GMT, Bert wrote:
| Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
SNIP|
| Strict interpretation, no way. If an inspector sees it, he's not
| going to pass it. You're not supposed to make splices inside the
| panel for openers. And when you add the second branch breaker he'll
| insist on a new load calculation, the numbers of which will probably
| call for a service panel upgrade from 100A/125A to 200A, or 200A to
| 300A/400A"...
|
| But as long as you don't try to cook and weld at the same time, and
| you make a neat bolted connection in the panel, go for it. (And
| remember that "we never had this conversation"...) ;-P
|
| You'll need to splice the welder leads and the stove leads to a
| short chunk of piece-out wire to go into the breaker (split-bolt
| puttied and taped, or Polaris insulated splice), and then tuck
| everything back in neatly so the cover goes back on.
|
| -- Bruce --
|
| --
| Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
| Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
| 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
| Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.


Good thing we have electricians about like you who can baffle the rest
of us. You might be overloading the poor fellow! Pun not intended.

Old rental house. Best it ain't more than 150A service, and bet that
his landlord will not at all approve of any revisions to his wiring. If the
landlord knows about it and something happens, hell will have to pay because
for sure his insurance company won't!

An option that might just pass muster with everyone is having a properly
capable electrician make up a heavy duty extension cable to reach from your
range outlet to the welder you plan on using. This way you don't endanger
the house or its wiring, and since it's temporary, your renters insurance
will cover any issues. Yeah, it ain't cheap, but neither are any of the
problems you're going to create by messing with wiring in an old house you
don't own! I suppose when you don't need it anymore, you might find an
electrician who'll buy it back from you for pennies on the dollar that you
paid. Can you even get 8/3 or 6/3 SO/SJ cord?

While I got you here, Bruce, I wired up an additional 40A outlet for the
welder to my 150amp service panel. I've got some baseboard heaters taken
out of service, so I've gained some capacity there, so where can I go to
find the load ratings and what the guidelines for capacity are?

Unless you have an inverter welder, you don't have enough supply amperage.


"Bert" wrote in message
...
I would like to plug a 220V welder into my dryer outlet, since that is
the only 220V outlet I have. But the house I'm renting is old enough
that the dryer outlet is a hot-hot-neutral outlet with no separate
ground. Would there be any problem (either in terms of the electrical
code or in terms of risk to myself or the equipment or the house) with
using the neutral wire as the grounding wire for the welder? Of
course, I'll need a plug adaptor -- I thought I'd use a 3-wire dryer
cord and connect the pigtails to an outlet matching the welder plug.

Thanks for any advice.

Bert

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:35:14 GMT, Bert wrote:

Adding a welder receptacle in the garage is what I would like to do,
but I'm not sure that's an (economical) option. The main panel has
only one empty breaker slot, but I assume I would need two slots for a
new 240V circuit, correct? That means I would have to add another
panel (at a cost considerably higher than $50), right? Or are there
other options?

Tell us what brand panel you have, the model breakers it takes (or
can take) and what's in there now.

If you still have the label on the panel cover you're golden, it
will tell you whether you can use "duplex" breakers that fill one 1"
slot and give you two circuits, and which slots they will fit in.

Or the "quad" breakers that'll give you one 50A 2-pole for the
welder and two single 15A or 20A poles for the branch circuits you
unplugged to make room. (They also make 250-230 quads that will feed
the welder and dryer or water heater from the same 2" space - but
that's drawing too much power for the bus-bar stabs in most panels,
especially if it's an Aluminum buss panel.)

The panel is a Bryant/Westinghouse Cat. No. 12-24 FN, SN Type 1
Enclosure, Max Mains Rating 125A. The diagram on the label indicates
that all slots can use duplex breakers, though oddly the diagram
doesn't exactly match the panel -- it shows 12 slots but there are
actually 16. There is no indication of quad breakers on the diagram.
The list of breaker types allowed is BR, BRH, BD, BQ, BJ, BJH, GFCB,
GFCBH, BRWH, BRSN. (Is BQ a quad breaker?) The bus panel and bus bars
are aluminum; wiring is copper.

The current configuration is
2 slots occupied by main breaker (Bryant type BR2100)
2 slots occupied by range breaker (Bryant type BR250)
2 slots occupied by dryer breaker (Bryant type BR230)
4 slots occupied by duplex 20A breakers (Bryant type BRD BD20-20)
5 slots occupied by duplex 15A breakers (Bryant type BRD BD15-15)
1 slot open.

Could I for instance connect both the welder outlet and
the range outlet to the same 50A breaker (and still meet code)?

Strict interpretation, no way. If an inspector sees it, he's not
going to pass it. You're not supposed to make splices inside the
panel for openers. And when you add the second branch breaker he'll
insist on a new load calculation, the numbers of which will probably
call for a service panel upgrade from 100A/125A to 200A, or 200A to
300A/400A"...

But as long as you don't try to cook and weld at the same time, and
you make a neat bolted connection in the panel, go for it. (And
remember that "we never had this conversation"...) ;-P

What conversation? ;-)

You'll need to splice the welder leads and the stove leads to a
short chunk of piece-out wire to go into the breaker (split-bolt
puttied and taped, or Polaris insulated splice), and then tuck
everything back in neatly so the cover goes back on.

-- Bruce --

I guess you are talking about a bloody big industrial welder - here in Oz
we are on 240v (though my supply is around 220v) and most home welders run
off either a 10amp or 15amp outlet. My mig and my stick welder both run
off a 15 amp outlet (not at the same time of course)

The big boy welders in factories tend to use 440v 3 phase

David - who doesn't know much about welding, but a little about
electricity

Intrepid wrote


Don't do it lad. The dryer outlet is usually only rated for 20 amps.
For a 220v welder you'll likely need 50 amps.

this is dangerous, but it's your life. I've seen the neutral line miswired
as hot before, I've seen the neutral to ground bond fail as well. why not
just install a ground - just a wire to a water pipe, or a long rod driven
into wet ground, or even a connection to the metal conduit around the wiring
(unless it's that horrible plastic stuff)

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 10:56:25 GMT, Bert wrote:

I would like to plug a 220V welder into my dryer outlet, since that is
the only 220V outlet I have. But the house I'm renting is old enough
that the dryer outlet is a hot-hot-neutral outlet with no separate
ground. Would there be any problem (either in terms of the electrical
code or in terms of risk to myself or the equipment or the house) with
using the neutral wire as the grounding wire for the welder?

You can use that 3-wire circuit, since there is no neutral load
(120V devices) in any welders I've seen. The neutral wire is bonded
to ground at the main panel, so for all practical purposes they're the
same thing - but they don't want you connecting any load returns (like
the dryer drum light or the oven light) to the safety ground.

All new installs are supposed to be 4-wire with separate neutral and
ground. Old installs are grandfathered as-is, but you can change
them over to 4-wire if you want, and can (if they're in conduit or you
have 4-wire Romex in the walls).

Of
course, I'll need a plug adaptor -- I thought I'd use a 3-wire dryer
cord and connect the pigtails to an outlet matching the welder plug.

Will work fine - but make sure the breaker is rated to protect the
wires, don't change it out for a larger one. And if you crank the
welder up all the way and start laying big beads, you might trip it
out.

If the main panel is convenient to the garage and has some capacity
left, you can add your own 50A welder receptacle - unless you have an
oddball main panel like a Zinsco or ITE Pushmatic, it can be done for
under $50 in parts. Just use a short piece of flex conduit and put a
surface mount plug below the panel - or if the panel is on the outside
of the garage wall, use a nipple out the back of the panel can, and
surface mount a 4S box right behind it in the garage.

Buy the breaker seal and knockout plug now, and you can remove it
all fast and plug the holes when you move. Or just remove the breaker
and receptacle and blank off the new 4S box, leave the box so the next
renter can use it.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
snip--------
You can use that 3-wire circuit, since there is no neutral load
(120V devices) in any welders I've seen.

Oh, they're out there. My Lincoln 300/300 has a convenience outlet on the
front panel-----120V, 8 amps. Could have a transformer inside, though.
Dunno.

Harold

A Bryant type BR2100 is a 100amp main breaker. If you need some information
on dwelling calculation trye this link.
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homew...calc/index.htm

For articles on wiring use this link.
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homew...2002/index.htm

"Bert" wrote in message
...
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:35:14 GMT, Bert wrote:

Adding a welder receptacle in the garage is what I would like to do,
but I'm not sure that's an (economical) option. The main panel has
only one empty breaker slot, but I assume I would need two slots for a
new 240V circuit, correct? That means I would have to add another
panel (at a cost considerably higher than $50), right? Or are there
other options?

Tell us what brand panel you have, the model breakers it takes (or
can take) and what's in there now.

If you still have the label on the panel cover you're golden, it
will tell you whether you can use "duplex" breakers that fill one 1"
slot and give you two circuits, and which slots they will fit in.

Or the "quad" breakers that'll give you one 50A 2-pole for the
welder and two single 15A or 20A poles for the branch circuits you
unplugged to make room. (They also make 250-230 quads that will feed
the welder and dryer or water heater from the same 2" space - but
that's drawing too much power for the bus-bar stabs in most panels,
especially if it's an Aluminum buss panel.)

The panel is a Bryant/Westinghouse Cat. No. 12-24 FN, SN Type 1
Enclosure, Max Mains Rating 125A. The diagram on the label indicates
that all slots can use duplex breakers, though oddly the diagram
doesn't exactly match the panel -- it shows 12 slots but there are
actually 16. There is no indication of quad breakers on the diagram.
The list of breaker types allowed is BR, BRH, BD, BQ, BJ, BJH, GFCB,
GFCBH, BRWH, BRSN. (Is BQ a quad breaker?) The bus panel and bus bars
are aluminum; wiring is copper.

The current configuration is
2 slots occupied by main breaker (Bryant type BR2100)
2 slots occupied by range breaker (Bryant type BR250)
2 slots occupied by dryer breaker (Bryant type BR230)
4 slots occupied by duplex 20A breakers (Bryant type BRD BD20-20)
5 slots occupied by duplex 15A breakers (Bryant type BRD BD15-15)
1 slot open.

Could I for instance connect both the welder outlet and
the range outlet to the same 50A breaker (and still meet code)?

Strict interpretation, no way. If an inspector sees it, he's not
going to pass it. You're not supposed to make splices inside the
panel for openers. And when you add the second branch breaker he'll
insist on a new load calculation, the numbers of which will probably
call for a service panel upgrade from 100A/125A to 200A, or 200A to
300A/400A"...

But as long as you don't try to cook and weld at the same time, and
you make a neat bolted connection in the panel, go for it. (And
remember that "we never had this conversation"...) ;-P

What conversation? ;-)

You'll need to splice the welder leads and the stove leads to a
short chunk of piece-out wire to go into the breaker (split-bolt
puttied and taped, or Polaris insulated splice), and then tuck
everything back in neatly so the cover goes back on.

-- Bruce --

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:21:56 GMT, Bert wrote:

The panel is a Bryant/Westinghouse Cat. No. 12-24 FN, SN Type 1
Enclosure, Max Mains Rating 125A. The diagram on the label indicates
that all slots can use duplex breakers, though oddly the diagram
doesn't exactly match the panel -- it shows 12 slots but there are
actually 16.

If that's the style I think it is, they don't want you using the two
breaker positions directly opposite the Main Breaker, and they'll have
a "Do Not Remove This Knockout" sticker on those two breaker KOs.
They are already pumping 100 Amps through those stabs which is about
all they can handle, they don't want a load breaker there to keep from
melting the stabs. Partly exposed, they'll get some cooling from air
circulation inside the can.

There is no indication of quad breakers on the diagram.
The list of breaker types allowed is BR, BRH, BD, BQ, BJ, BJH, GFCB,
GFCBH, BRWH, BRSN. (Is BQ a quad breaker?) The bus panel and bus bars
are aluminum; wiring is copper.

The current configuration is
2 slots occupied by main breaker (Bryant type BR2100)
2 slots occupied by range breaker (Bryant type BR250)
2 slots occupied by dryer breaker (Bryant type BR230)
4 slots occupied by duplex 20A breakers (Bryant type BRD BD20-20)
5 slots occupied by duplex 15A breakers (Bryant type BRD BD15-15)
1 slot open.

I would pull the dryer breaker (save it for when you move) and use a
Bryant BRD BQ-250-230 quad breaker. (Eaton Cutler-Hammer makes them
now, find a local C-H supplier.) Put a small dab of Noalox on the bus
before you plug it in as insurance, in case the tin plating is damaged
it will seal out the corrosion and prevent arcing - you hope...

That gives you a 50A 220V pair on the inside for the welder, and a
30A 220V with the big hoop handle-tie for the water heater. Install
your welder receptacle "temporarily" on the wall (so you can remove it
quickly with a few screws and spackle the holes) and you're done.

And that's going to make that panel just about full load-wise -
don't try running everything at once, or you'll be tripping the Main
Breaker and dealing with an annoyed SWMBO who doesn't like the
unscheduled blackouts.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Check the breakers. Some are 20, some are 30 (mine) and some are 50 like I had.
The value depends on how many baby diapers you have to dry at once !

Martin

Intrepid wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 10:56:25 GMT, Bert wrote:


I would like to plug a 220V welder into my dryer outlet, since that is
the only 220V outlet I have. But the house I'm renting is old enough
that the dryer outlet is a hot-hot-neutral outlet with no separate
ground. Would there be any problem (either in terms of the electrical
code or in terms of risk to myself or the equipment or the house) with
using the neutral wire as the grounding wire for the welder? Of
course, I'll need a plug adaptor -- I thought I'd use a 3-wire dryer
cord and connect the pigtails to an outlet matching the welder plug.

Thanks for any advice.

Bert




Bert,

Don't do it lad. The dryer outlet is usually only rated for 20 amps.
For a 220v welder you'll likely need 50 amps.

As far as the wiring part goes, yes it would work, but the risk of
overload is much too great.

I had a similar problem in my house. I ended up getting a sub-panel
installed, with the appropriate sized wiring and breakers. If your
house panel and line in from the pole isn't rated for at least 100
amps, you would be taking quite a chance.

It may end up costing you a bit of money, but the cost is peanuts
compared to having a fire.


Hope this helps,

Intrepid


--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

"carl mciver" wrote:


"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
.. .
|
| You'll need to splice the welder leads and the stove leads to a
| short chunk of piece-out wire to go into the breaker (split-bolt
| puttied and taped, or Polaris insulated splice), and then tuck
| everything back in neatly so the cover goes back on.

Good thing we have electricians about like you who can baffle the rest
of us. You might be overloading the poor fellow! Pun not intended.

Yep, I'll need to do a little googling for some of the terminology in
that paragraph.

Old rental house. Best it ain't more than 150A service, and bet that
his landlord will not at all approve of any revisions to his wiring. If the
landlord knows about it and something happens, hell will have to pay because
for sure his insurance company won't!

I appreciate the concern expressed by yourself and others here. My
plan is to get my landlords' blessing before I make any changes to the
service panel, but I want to know what the options are so I'll have a
better idea what I'm talking about when I approach them. Since they
plan to use this as their retirement home, I'm hoping to convince them
of the virtue of having 220V power in the garage, and maybe even get
them to pay for (or at least split) the cost.

An option that might just pass muster with everyone is having a properly
capable electrician make up a heavy duty extension cable to reach from your
range outlet to the welder you plan on using. This way you don't endanger
the house or its wiring, and since it's temporary, your renters insurance
will cover any issues. Yeah, it ain't cheap, but neither are any of the
problems you're going to create by messing with wiring in an old house you
don't own! I suppose when you don't need it anymore, you might find an
electrician who'll buy it back from you for pennies on the dollar that you
paid. Can you even get 8/3 or 6/3 SO/SJ cord?

Using the range outlet would be considerably less convenient than
using the dryer outlet and would add 20 feet to the extension length
(though it would give me another 20A). Using the dryer outlet, I can
get by with a standard 6' dryer cord wired to an appropriate
welder-type outlet.

Bert

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:21:56 GMT, Bert wrote:

The panel is a Bryant/Westinghouse Cat. No. 12-24 FN, SN Type 1
Enclosure, Max Mains Rating 125A. The diagram on the label indicates
that all slots can use duplex breakers, though oddly the diagram
doesn't exactly match the panel -- it shows 12 slots but there are
actually 16.

If that's the style I think it is, they don't want you using the two
breaker positions directly opposite the Main Breaker, and they'll have
a "Do Not Remove This Knockout" sticker on those two breaker KOs.
They are already pumping 100 Amps through those stabs which is about
all they can handle, they don't want a load breaker there to keep from
melting the stabs. Partly exposed, they'll get some cooling from air
circulation inside the can.

If that's the case, whoever installed system wasn't aware of it, since
one of the slots opposite the main is used for half of the range
breaker. The one open slot is also opposite the main, but there's no
"Do Not Remove" sticker.

There is no indication of quad breakers on the diagram.
The list of breaker types allowed is BR, BRH, BD, BQ, BJ, BJH, GFCB,
GFCBH, BRWH, BRSN. (Is BQ a quad breaker?) The bus panel and bus bars
are aluminum; wiring is copper.

The current configuration is
2 slots occupied by main breaker (Bryant type BR2100)
2 slots occupied by range breaker (Bryant type BR250)
2 slots occupied by dryer breaker (Bryant type BR230)
4 slots occupied by duplex 20A breakers (Bryant type BRD BD20-20)
5 slots occupied by duplex 15A breakers (Bryant type BRD BD15-15)
1 slot open.

I would pull the dryer breaker (save it for when you move) and use a
Bryant BRD BQ-250-230 quad breaker. (Eaton Cutler-Hammer makes them
now, find a local C-H supplier.) Put a small dab of Noalox on the bus
before you plug it in as insurance, in case the tin plating is damaged
it will seal out the corrosion and prevent arcing - you hope...

That gives you a 50A 220V pair on the inside for the welder, and a
30A 220V with the big hoop handle-tie for the water heater. Install
your welder receptacle "temporarily" on the wall (so you can remove it
quickly with a few screws and spackle the holes) and you're done.

Thanks. That sounds like a good option once I get motivated to do
something more involved than using the existing dryer outlet.

And that's going to make that panel just about full load-wise -
don't try running everything at once, or you'll be tripping the Main
Breaker and dealing with an annoyed SWMBO who doesn't like the
unscheduled blackouts.

At least that's one issue I don't have to worry about..

Bert.

"Lance" wrote:

A Bryant type BR2100 is a 100amp main breaker. If you need some information
on dwelling calculation trye this link.
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homew...calc/index.htm

For articles on wiring use this link.
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homew...2002/index.htm


Thanks for the links.

Bert