"Cliff" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:47:07 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:37:13 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:

Gunner Lied:

And as Ive said..at the moment..there is
no reliable way to tell if you are impared on the job, or not.

Bull****, Gunner. Such tests _already_ exist. Typically somewhat like a
video game, doing reaction-time testing, and perhaps other things
depending on the nature of the job. Not able to do the task in the test,
not allowed to operate the train, press, plane, whatever. Perhaps even
get the breathalyzer, ****, blood, and/or other test - for cause -
unless you want to be fired.

Yes such tests do exist. They are expensive, time consuming and a
number of them involve equipment that requires a lab tech to operate.

Sort of like an IQ test for wingers.
Or a sobriety test needed to start your car. Watch the pretty
lights, push the pretty buttons .... to complicated, right?

The example I've seen tests motor and cognitive ability, and would run on a
laptop and maybe even the better PDAs. It only takes a few minutes,
certainly much less than a drug test, and gives instant results. It does
not distinguish between various causes of impairment, such as drugs v.
simple fatigue. It's cheap, reliable and non-invasive, too.

So, naturally, there's no market for it. Much better to get the guy who
smoked a joint 2 weeks ago and let your hung-over, over tired or caffeine
addled employees keep operating that heavy equipment, right? Government
regulation of worker's compensation insurance and employer liability very
frequently offer employers financial incentives for drug testing programs,
only. In FL, I think it's a 5% discount on worker's comp rates.


And they are often wrong.

Sort of like all the false positives for a drug test, right?

Im an ex cop. I can "usually" tell if someone is on drugs and can
often times tell you which one.

Better than any such test I'm certain, right?

Research shows that cops overestimate their ability to detect alcohol or
drug impairment, more so for the latter, less so for the former.

Jeff

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:35:14 GMT, "Jeffrey McCann"
said:


"Cliff" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:47:07 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:37:13 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:

Gunner Lied:

And as Ive said..at the moment..there is
no reliable way to tell if you are impared on the job, or not.

Bull****, Gunner. Such tests _already_ exist. Typically somewhat like a
video game, doing reaction-time testing, and perhaps other things
depending on the nature of the job. Not able to do the task in the test,
not allowed to operate the train, press, plane, whatever. Perhaps even
get the breathalyzer, ****, blood, and/or other test - for cause -
unless you want to be fired.

Yes such tests do exist. They are expensive, time consuming and a
number of them involve equipment that requires a lab tech to operate.

Sort of like an IQ test for wingers.
Or a sobriety test needed to start your car. Watch the pretty
lights, push the pretty buttons .... to complicated, right?

The example I've seen tests motor and cognitive ability, and would run on a
laptop and maybe even the better PDAs. It only takes a few minutes,
certainly much less than a drug test, and gives instant results. It does
not distinguish between various causes of impairment, such as drugs v.
simple fatigue. It's cheap, reliable and non-invasive, too.

So, naturally, there's no market for it. Much better to get the guy who
smoked a joint 2 weeks ago and let your hung-over, over tired or caffeine
addled employees keep operating that heavy equipment, right? Government
regulation of worker's compensation insurance and employer liability very
frequently offer employers financial incentives for drug testing programs,
only. In FL, I think it's a 5% discount on worker's comp rates.


I'm all for this sort of test.

After all how many pot smokers (non-alcoholic) do you know who beat
their wives and abuse their kids ? I dont know any nor have I
personally heard of any potheads who do. However I know many drunks
who do and have heard my share of other horror stories involving
drunks.

Ecnerwal wrote in message ...
In article ,

Gunner Lied:

And as Ive said..at the moment..there is
no reliable way to tell if you are impared on the job, or not.

I (Ecnerwal) wrote:
Bull****, Gunner. Such tests _already_ exist. Typically somewhat like a
video game, doing reaction-time testing, and perhaps other things
depending on the nature of the job. Not able to do the task in the test,
not allowed to operate the train, press, plane, whatever. Perhaps even
get the breathalyzer, ****, blood, and/or other test - for cause -
unless you want to be fired.

And now gunner says:
Yes such tests do exist.

So first you say they don't, and now you say they do. Flip-flopper.

They are expensive, time consuming and a
number of them involve equipment that requires a lab tech to operate.

And then you start lying about the cost, time, complexity; and you
previously lied about worker acceptance - most places that use such
tests report that workers are far happier knowing that everyone around
them has had to take exactly the same test they did to get onto the job
site, and is functional _today_. The cost of a machine or set of
machines (bought once) to test every worker every day is diddly compared
to the cost (every single test) to "randomly" collect piddle. Most
require nobody to operate them but the worker, and take only a minute or
so. The information is freely available on the web.

Please point out which common field test, other than the breathyliser
will point out not only how much drugs by percentage are in your
system, but which drug, and wether or not you are impaired or not.

As I've said, I really don't care what you're on, or if you're on
nothing at all - the _impairment_ test has no need to determine that. If
the test shows that you are _impaired_, you can either get fired on the
spot, or take a sick day and go get any number of tests to show exactly
what you are or are not on when you fail the test. And you _don't_ get
to go to work while you are a danger to others, regardless of whether
you are a danger to others because you didn't sleep last night, or you
got drunk last night, or you got drunk this morning, or you have a legal
prescription for oxycontin, or you had your maid get you oxycontin
illegally. I really don't feel a bit better about getting killed by some
guy who's "just sleep deprived" or "just drunk" or "just has an ear
infection" than I do about getting killed my some guy who's "stoned".

Personally, I stick to caffeine, theobromine, and a very small amount of
ethanol in the appropriate time relationship to working. But that does
not mean I have any interest in working at places which are more
interested in "reefer madness" than they are in "worker safety".


I used to work with a guy who had a serious drug problem. You could
tell the days when he WASN'T high, he pulled his hat down low, and
wore sunglasses to keep the ceiling lights from blinding him.
One Monday he didn't show up. About 10am the OWNER left to go bail him
out of jail so he could drive the fork truck around, unload trucks,
move material and chip drums.
He had been busted late the night before, driving after burning crack
cocaine and heroin all weekend.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:44:03 GMT, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Gunner
wrote back on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:09:41 GMT
in misc.survivalism :

Actually, I dont drink anywhere near as much as I used to either.

--

SVL


For the best buzz try morning exercise. Doesn't matter what the activity as
long as you break a sweat and give your heart a good beating at least 20
minutes a day.

We're told we need to get our pulse rate up and the blood flowing for
twenty minutes. That's why I start the day with a cigarettes and a cup of
coffee.

Yep. Me, too. Only tea instead of coffee.


There is something else which does the same, but this is a family
newsgroup.

That, too. ;o)
Sue

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:34:01 -0500, North wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:49:31 GMT, Gunner
said:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:51:39 -0500, North wrote:


Frankly I dont give a damn if you burn the herb on your own time. Jost
dont come to work impared. And as Ive said..at the moment..there is
no reliable way to tell if you are impared on the job, or not.

Bull****, there is to a test to see if one is impared or not. I forget
what the cops call it, but they do it everytime the think some one is
****ed up behind the wheel. Oh yeah....It's call the sobrity test, you
know walk the line put your finger on your nose that sort of
thing....It is not just for testing drunks. Many pill poppers
potheads, and even folks who took "cold medicine" have been handed
DUI's for failing the test.

You can tell if some one is "geeking" on coke or crank just by
watching them for ten mins. or so. (I'm sure you know what I mean.)

cliff snipped

n.
Yes indeed. However if you have an inner ear infection, you will often
fail the field sobriety test. God knows I conducted enough of them.

If you have any number of neurological diseases, you will also fail,
and will in many cases appear to be groked.

Only blood or **** testing can be used to make the case of consumption
and imparement, and only then based on human averages.

Gunner


Agreed however the **** test should only be used after one fails the
sobrity test, my opinion of course.

But I must admitt that I drug test my employees, but my workmans
policy states that I have to.

How "secure" are your tests? My son used to occasionally volunteer
his clean pee to his friends.
Sue

A buddy ****ed off a cop one night. Hed had NOTHING to drink. When
arrested, the officer claimed he had a BA of .09, which put him into
the intoxicated catagory.

Friend demanded a blood test and was refused. So immediately upon his
6 hour hold release, he went to a hospital, and had himself blood
tested.

When going to court, he was able to demonstrate to the judge that
there were Zero amounts of alcohol in his blood stream. Then he
pressed charges against the arresting officer and the department. He
won of course and paid off his mortgage, and bought a nice little
house and some acreage 200 miles away and lives a life of quiet
retirement.

Gunner

Fking cops are dangerous criminals with guns. They lie, they steal,
they cheat and they sit around complaining they're not "compensated"
enough. When you drive by a parking lot at night here you'll see two
cop cars 69-ing and hours later you drive by again and the 2 cars are
still there.

In article , Gunner says...

SOL? No...tort reform does not prevent settlements. It just limits
the dollar amounts.

Imagine outlawing contingency fees. That's what your friend
benefitted from - the fact that the lawyer took the case
with no money up front.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Gunner says...

Did your friend's lawyer get paid out of the settlement?

Yep. A fixed rate of 12% of the award.

The attorney must have been a friend of the friend.
Your buddy got a very good deal. Typical numbers
tend towards 20-30 percent.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 23 Nov 2004 18:32:57 -0800, (Laz) wrote:

A buddy ****ed off a cop one night. Hed had NOTHING to drink. When
arrested, the officer claimed he had a BA of .09, which put him into
the intoxicated catagory.

Friend demanded a blood test and was refused. So immediately upon his
6 hour hold release, he went to a hospital, and had himself blood
tested.

When going to court, he was able to demonstrate to the judge that
there were Zero amounts of alcohol in his blood stream. Then he
pressed charges against the arresting officer and the department. He
won of course and paid off his mortgage, and bought a nice little
house and some acreage 200 miles away and lives a life of quiet
retirement.

Gunner

Fking cops are dangerous criminals with guns. They lie, they steal,
they cheat and they sit around complaining they're not "compensated"
enough. When you drive by a parking lot at night here you'll see two
cop cars 69-ing and hours later you drive by again and the 2 cars are
still there.

Actually..most of them are not. However it takes only a few bad actors
to give them a really bad name.

Gunner



"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
around."

"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right
before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:56:51 GMT, "Bill Roberto"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:19:10 GMT, "Bill Roberto"
wrote:


"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

"Bill Roberto" wrote in
message
ink.net...


Hi, Bill.

Actually, I dont drink anywhere near as much as I used to either.

--

SVL


For the best buzz try morning exercise. Doesn't matter what the activity
as
long as you break a sweat and give your heart a good beating at least 20
minutes a day.

Endorphines. The brains answer to super heroin.

G

Gunner


Yup, just as addicting. How's it going Gunner?

Making it. I could use a bit more work..shrug..but Im almost covering
expenses.

The ticker is holding out fine and dandy now that Im buying most of my
meds. Two of them are still too expensive..shrug.

I saw that you bailed on the gear shop. Not knowing the details I
witheld comment. But I think you did the right thing. You do what
you do damned well and are extremely well thought of by your clients.
I suspect we share a few as some of mine know you, or of you.

Thanks for asking.
Hope you have a marvelous Thanksgiving.

Gunner



"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
around."

"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right
before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001

On 23 Nov 2004 19:33:49 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Did your friend's lawyer get paid out of the settlement?

Yep. A fixed rate of 12% of the award.

The attorney must have been a friend of the friend.
Your buddy got a very good deal. Typical numbers
tend towards 20-30 percent.

Jim

He negotiates well.

Gunner



"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
around."

"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right
before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:56:51 GMT, "Bill Roberto"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:19:10 GMT, "Bill Roberto"
wrote:


"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

"Bill Roberto" wrote in
message
ink.net...


Hi, Bill.

Actually, I dont drink anywhere near as much as I used to either.

--

SVL


For the best buzz try morning exercise. Doesn't matter what the activity
as
long as you break a sweat and give your heart a good beating at least 20
minutes a day.

Endorphines. The brains answer to super heroin.

G

Gunner


Yup, just as addicting. How's it going Gunner?


And which drugs make you nutz? The natural ones?
Sounds like we need to ban exercise & guns .... nasty
things, endorphines.
--
Cliff

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:24:51 -0500, North wrote:

I'm all for this sort of test.

All that would be needed would be an entry system, probably.
Solve the logic & hand-eye coordination problem (a new one
each day) and the door opens.

Sadly, most fundies & wingers would fail ...... but we could
use the same test for voting ......
--
Cliff

On 23 Nov 2004 10:46:02 -0800, (Harry Conover) wrote:

Fortunately a hospital blood test will quickly clear up the situation,
but by that time you have already been handcuffed and your car towed
away!

You could be arrested on suspicion after exiting someplace
that serves alcohol. This is in fact often done.
Wait a few hours with 4 recent drinks on top of the food ....
then get tested .... probably you would *then* fail.

In any case, they would poke you, perhaps keep your DNA
in their new police, FBI & anyone else's database,
and THEN BILL YOU. For the impound too.

HTH
--
Cliff

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:31:30 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

I see you have never done a roadside sobriety test. Virtually every
subject will stare at on coming headlights

They probably want to get out of the way.
Feel free to stand there though.
--
Cliff

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:17:23 GMT, (DW)
wrote:

OK Cliff g, go back and re-read your post...no, n/m, here it is:

Actually, I'd not yet read this subthread G.

Give Gunner the old rock. Saves me the trouble.
One of these days he might actually get something right.
We can hope, anyway.
--
Cliff

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:31:08 -0500, "Robin S."
wrote:


"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

You are generally impaired for weeks if not months, and sometimes years
after smoking pot heavily for any extended length of time.


But that's the issue that Gunner is failing to recognise (or acknowledge).

Just because someone has been using a substance doesn't mean they use it in
a chronic fashion or are addicted.

Of course not. There are lots of weekend recreational uses. None of
them will be working for me however.

Lots of people drink - doesn't mean they're alcoholics.

Of course not.


Regards,

Robin

Gunner



"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
around."

"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right
before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:56:51 GMT, "Bill Roberto"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:19:10 GMT, "Bill Roberto"
wrote:


"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

"Bill Roberto" wrote in
message
ink.net...


Hi, Bill.

Actually, I dont drink anywhere near as much as I used to either.

--

SVL


For the best buzz try morning exercise. Doesn't matter what the
activity
as
long as you break a sweat and give your heart a good beating at least
20
minutes a day.

Endorphines. The brains answer to super heroin.

G

Gunner


Yup, just as addicting. How's it going Gunner?

Making it. I could use a bit more work..shrug..but Im almost covering
expenses.

The ticker is holding out fine and dandy now that Im buying most of my
meds. Two of them are still too expensive..shrug.

I saw that you bailed on the gear shop. Not knowing the details I
witheld comment. But I think you did the right thing. You do what
you do damned well and are extremely well thought of by your clients.
I suspect we share a few as some of mine know you, or of you.

Thanks for asking.
Hope you have a marvelous Thanksgiving.

Gunner


I have a customer in Stafford Arizona with an Akira Sieki looking for some
help with the toolchanger. E-mail me if you are interested.

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:05:13 -0500, Cliff wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:17:23 GMT, (DW)
wrote:

OK Cliff g, go back and re-read your post...no, n/m, here it is:

Actually, I'd not yet read this subthread G.

Give Gunner the old rock. Saves me the trouble.
One of these days he might actually get something right.

And one of these days, YOU might actually directly answer a question asked
of you.....














....nahhh...wishful thinking.

- DW

"Bill Roberto" wrote in message nk.net...
"Gunner" wrote in message
...

I have a customer in Stafford Arizona with an Akira Sieki looking for some
help with the toolchanger. E-mail me if you are interested.

That's near our old friend jb's last known,right?
Go for it G.
--
Cliff

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:15:35 GMT, the renowned "Bill Roberto"
wrote:

I have a customer in Stafford Arizona with an Akira Sieki looking for
some
help with the toolchanger. E-mail me if you are interested.

Safford? I've actually been there. ;-)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers:
http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers:
http://www.speff.com


Oops. Yup Safford.

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:15:35 GMT, the renowned "Bill Roberto"
wrote:

I have a customer in Stafford Arizona with an Akira Sieki looking for some
help with the toolchanger. E-mail me if you are interested.

Safford? I've actually been there. ;-)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Gunner wrote in message . ..
On 23 Nov 2004 10:46:02 -0800, (Harry Conover) wrote:



And Parkinsons does NOT impare ones ability to perform their job
fucntion for most trades. Brain surgeon or diamond cutter......

My wife died of parkinsons, ****head, if you want to talk about not
impared, maybe you better find aomeone thats as stupid a fool as you
are. Or better yet, make sure your head is all the way in your ass
and your two faces can talk to each other.

As I've said all along, gummer is all mouth, no brain, and something
to be avoided at all cost, fortunately he's not contagious outside of
the state of confusion, I mean kalifornee.

Gunner wrote in message . ..
On 23 Nov 2004 18:32:57 -0800, (Laz) wrote:


Actually..most of them are not. However it takes only a few bad actors
to give them a really bad name.

Gunner

I know....and I apologize to the honest cops out there...but my
attitude came only after a number of run-ins with cops who
unfortunately fit that mold.

On 24 Nov 2004 17:34:08 -0800, (Laz) wrote:

Gunner wrote in message . ..
On 23 Nov 2004 18:32:57 -0800, (Laz) wrote:


Actually..most of them are not. However it takes only a few bad actors
to give them a really bad name.

Gunner

I know....and I apologize to the honest cops out there...but my
attitude came only after a number of run-ins with cops who
unfortunately fit that mold.

There are also bad Departments which encourage or allow such behavior.
Most are quite good, but..

Gunner



Come shed a tear for Michael Moore-
Though he smirked and lied like a two-bit whore
George Bush has just won another four.
Poor, sad little Michael Moore

Diogenes

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show
(Lennie the Lurker) wrote back on 24 Nov 2004 14:31:37 -0800 in
misc.survivalism :


And Parkinsons does NOT impare ones ability to perform their job
fucntion for most trades. Brain surgeon or diamond cutter......

My wife died of parkinsons, ****head, if you want to talk about not
impared, maybe you better find aomeone thats as stupid a fool as you
are. Or better yet, make sure your head is all the way in your ass
and your two faces can talk to each other.

As I've said all along, gummer is all mouth, no brain, and something
to be avoided at all cost, fortunately he's not contagious outside of
the state of confusion, I mean kalifornee.

Boy howdy, thet there Parkinson's must be contagious, and in your case
caused a severe case of reading incomprehension.
In the mean time, is the chiropractor able to help your back, what with
the contortions you have to go through to get your cranium so far up your
intestinal tract?


tschus
pyotr



--
pyotr filipivich
Denial is not a river in Egypt, "Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme,
a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the
denying person knows the truth on some level." LTC Grossman.

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:42:15 -0500, North wrote:


"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
around."

"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right
before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001


"As long as we may think as we will, and speak as we think the condition of
men will proceed in improvement"
Thomas Jefferson

Kman