I have a friend who is trying to repair an old sorghum mill. The
major problem with this machine is the condition of the bearings.

This machine has three rollers that crush the cane. Two are
adjustable and a half bearing shell is used to adjust pressure. One
remaining half bearing shell fragment appears to be made from bronze.
It looks like someone has tried to repair these bearings in the past
by pouring a lead or babbitt bearing. The poured bearing quickly
failed under load.

Has anyone had experience repairing these mills? And is there any
information available on the bearings used with these machines?

Any leads will be appreciated

John Normile

I have a friend who is trying to repair an old sorghum mill. The
major problem with this machine is the condition of the bearings.

This machine has three rollers that crush the cane. Two are
adjustable and a half bearing shell is used to adjust pressure. One
remaining half bearing shell fragment appears to be made from bronze.
It looks like someone has tried to repair these bearings in the past
by pouring a lead or babbitt bearing. The poured bearing quickly
failed under load.

Has anyone had experience repairing these mills? And is there any
information available on the bearings used with these machines?

Any leads will be appreciated

John Normile

I think a lot of older equipment using pressing rollers were designed
this way, but you may be better off trying to convert it to ball or
roller bearings - else you may have to "make" your bronze bearing
halfs to replace the originals.
Ken

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:30:50 GMT, Ken Sterling (Ken Sterling) wrote:

I have a friend who is trying to repair an old sorghum mill. The
major problem with this machine is the condition of the bearings.

This machine has three rollers that crush the cane. Two are
adjustable and a half bearing shell is used to adjust pressure. One
remaining half bearing shell fragment appears to be made from bronze.
It looks like someone has tried to repair these bearings in the past
by pouring a lead or babbitt bearing. The poured bearing quickly
failed under load.

Has anyone had experience repairing these mills? And is there any
information available on the bearings used with these machines?

Any leads will be appreciated

John Normile

I think a lot of older equipment using pressing rollers were designed
this way, but you may be better off trying to convert it to ball or
roller bearings - else you may have to "make" your bronze bearing
halfs to replace the originals.
Ken

My friend looked into converting it to ball bearings, but there
doesn't appear to be enough room. And one of the roller journals is
made with a taper. We assume that the taper is there to handle
thrust in the machine.

The bearing system is unique, at least to me. There is only one
"half shell" type bearing on each journal. This is on the side that
takes the pressure from squeezing the cane. The block that retains
the bearing is similar to an automotive crankshaft bearing cap. But
instead of being about an inch or so thick, it is about 5" thick.
And the diameter that holds the bearing shell is recessed down into
this holder block. A lip of material then retains the shell and
prevents it from turning.

None of the original bearing material is left. Any idea what the
preferred bearing material would be for this application? I am
assuming that a bearing bronze would be the choice for this
application. This is a low speed, high pressure application

John

John Normile wrote:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:30:50 GMT, Ken Sterling (Ken Sterling) wrote:


I have a friend who is trying to repair an old sorghum mill. The
major problem with this machine is the condition of the bearings.

This machine has three rollers that crush the cane. Two are
adjustable and a half bearing shell is used to adjust pressure. One
remaining half bearing shell fragment appears to be made from bronze.
It looks like someone has tried to repair these bearings in the past
by pouring a lead or babbitt bearing. The poured bearing quickly
failed under load.

Has anyone had experience repairing these mills? And is there any
information available on the bearings used with these machines?

Any leads will be appreciated

John Normile


I think a lot of older equipment using pressing rollers were designed
this way, but you may be better off trying to convert it to ball or
roller bearings - else you may have to "make" your bronze bearing
halfs to replace the originals.
Ken


My friend looked into converting it to ball bearings, but there
doesn't appear to be enough room. And one of the roller journals is
made with a taper. We assume that the taper is there to handle
thrust in the machine.

The bearing system is unique, at least to me. There is only one
"half shell" type bearing on each journal. This is on the side that
takes the pressure from squeezing the cane. The block that retains
the bearing is similar to an automotive crankshaft bearing cap. But
instead of being about an inch or so thick, it is about 5" thick.
And the diameter that holds the bearing shell is recessed down into
this holder block. A lip of material then retains the shell and
prevents it from turning.

None of the original bearing material is left. Any idea what the
preferred bearing material would be for this application? I am
assuming that a bearing bronze would be the choice for this
application. This is a low speed, high pressure application

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, because I'm
not an expert on these things.

I'd design an oil bearing system. Duplicate the
original bronze bearing as well as you can then
fit it with several small oil passages and a way
to presurize the oil into them. The goal is to get
the journal to positively ride up on a layer of
oil. This is how lots of big, slow high pressure
bearings work.

Alternately, you could just try to duplicate an
old-style railway journal bearing. As near as
I can remember, it's nothing more than the journal,
a half shell bearing on top and the journal sitting
in oil at about half it's diameter high. Now that's
pretty much what you've described, but without the
oil bath. Is it possible that someone removed
the oil containers years ago?

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:05:25 GMT, (John Normile)
wrote:

I have a friend who is trying to repair an old sorghum mill. The
major problem with this machine is the condition of the bearings.

This machine has three rollers that crush the cane. Two are
adjustable and a half bearing shell is used to adjust pressure. One
remaining half bearing shell fragment appears to be made from bronze.
It looks like someone has tried to repair these bearings in the past
by pouring a lead or babbitt bearing. The poured bearing quickly
failed under load.

Has anyone had experience repairing these mills? And is there any
information available on the bearings used with these machines?

Any leads will be appreciated

John Normile
Can you post a picture at www.metalworking.com in the dropbox? That
would make it easier to to describe a possible repair. Use some sort
of scale in the picture, such as a tape measure,
ERS

Jim Stewart wrote:

John Normile wrote:

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:30:50 GMT, Ken Sterling (Ken Sterling) wrote:


I have a friend who is trying to repair an old sorghum mill. The
major problem with this machine is the condition of the bearings.
This machine has three rollers that crush the cane. Two are
adjustable and a half bearing shell is used to adjust pressure. One
remaining half bearing shell fragment appears to be made from bronze.
It looks like someone has tried to repair these bearings in the past
by pouring a lead or babbitt bearing. The poured bearing quickly
failed under load.

Has anyone had experience repairing these mills? And is there any
information available on the bearings used with these machines?

Any leads will be appreciated

John Normile


I think a lot of older equipment using pressing rollers were designed
this way, but you may be better off trying to convert it to ball or
roller bearings - else you may have to "make" your bronze bearing
halfs to replace the originals.
Ken



My friend looked into converting it to ball bearings, but there
doesn't appear to be enough room. And one of the roller journals is
made with a taper. We assume that the taper is there to handle
thrust in the machine.

The bearing system is unique, at least to me. There is only one
"half shell" type bearing on each journal. This is on the side that
takes the pressure from squeezing the cane. The block that retains
the bearing is similar to an automotive crankshaft bearing cap. But
instead of being about an inch or so thick, it is about 5" thick.
And the diameter that holds the bearing shell is recessed down into
this holder block. A lip of material then retains the shell and
prevents it from turning.

None of the original bearing material is left. Any idea what the
preferred bearing material would be for this application? I am
assuming that a bearing bronze would be the choice for this
application. This is a low speed, high pressure application


I'm gonna go out on a limb here, because I'm
not an expert on these things.

I'd design an oil bearing system. Duplicate the
original bronze bearing as well as you can then
fit it with several small oil passages and a way
to presurize the oil into them. The goal is to get
the journal to positively ride up on a layer of
oil. This is how lots of big, slow high pressure
bearings work.

Alternately, you could just try to duplicate an
old-style railway journal bearing. As near as
I can remember, it's nothing more than the journal,
a half shell bearing on top and the journal sitting
in oil at about half it's diameter high. Now that's
pretty much what you've described, but without the
oil bath. Is it possible that someone removed
the oil containers years ago?


I think you might be on to something here...most factories that did that
kind of steel casting at the time were mainly doing railroad stuff.
Possibly it's a railroad sized journal formed on a machine instead?
Maybe with some rough sizes listed someone here with an old RR book can
match it to a standard journal and material for the shoe.

Koz

snip
My friend looked into converting it to ball bearings, but there
doesn't appear to be enough room. And one of the roller journals is
made with a taper. We assume that the taper is there to handle
thrust in the machine.
Any chance the taper is just "wear"? Maybe good needle bearings
would work instead of ball bearings - although the bearing bronze
mentioned below would probably give you long enough life provided
sufficient lube was available.
Ken.

The bearing system is unique, at least to me. There is only one
"half shell" type bearing on each journal. This is on the side that
takes the pressure from squeezing the cane. The block that retains
the bearing is similar to an automotive crankshaft bearing cap. But
instead of being about an inch or so thick, it is about 5" thick.
And the diameter that holds the bearing shell is recessed down into
this holder block. A lip of material then retains the shell and
prevents it from turning.

None of the original bearing material is left. Any idea what the
preferred bearing material would be for this application? I am
assuming that a bearing bronze would be the choice for this
application. This is a low speed, high pressure application

John

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:05:30 +0000, John Normile wrote:


None of the original bearing material is left. Any idea what the
preferred bearing material would be for this application? I am
assuming that a bearing bronze would be the choice for this
application. This is a low speed, high pressure application


I know that it is claimed that cast iron is supposed to
work well as a bearing for hardened steel.

As to Babbitt metal, I was unable to locate the PDF scan
of an old book called "The Magnolia Metal Bearing Book",
as all of the links to it seem to be dead. I had a copy
of it once and it's since been lost, but I do remember
that there are at least two kinds of Babbitt Metal, for
different kinds of applications. If I remember correctly
you would want the type of Babbitt metal that has no lead
in it. I think it is an alloy that is mostly tin, antimony,
and copper.

Oh, wait! I just found a working link:

http://files.owwm.com/PDF/FAQ/Magnolia.pdf

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:37:35 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote:

John Normile wrote:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:30:50 GMT, Ken Sterling (Ken Sterling) wrote:


I have a friend who is trying to repair an old sorghum mill. The
major problem with this machine is the condition of the bearings.

This machine has three rollers that crush the cane. Two are
adjustable and a half bearing shell is used to adjust pressure. One
remaining half bearing shell fragment appears to be made from bronze.
It looks like someone has tried to repair these bearings in the past
by pouring a lead or babbitt bearing. The poured bearing quickly
failed under load.

Has anyone had experience repairing these mills? And is there any
information available on the bearings used with these machines?

Any leads will be appreciated

John Normile


I think a lot of older equipment using pressing rollers were designed
this way, but you may be better off trying to convert it to ball or
roller bearings - else you may have to "make" your bronze bearing
halfs to replace the originals.
Ken


My friend looked into converting it to ball bearings, but there
doesn't appear to be enough room. And one of the roller journals is
made with a taper. We assume that the taper is there to handle
thrust in the machine.

The bearing system is unique, at least to me. There is only one
"half shell" type bearing on each journal. This is on the side that
takes the pressure from squeezing the cane. The block that retains
the bearing is similar to an automotive crankshaft bearing cap. But
instead of being about an inch or so thick, it is about 5" thick.
And the diameter that holds the bearing shell is recessed down into
this holder block. A lip of material then retains the shell and
prevents it from turning.

None of the original bearing material is left. Any idea what the
preferred bearing material would be for this application? I am
assuming that a bearing bronze would be the choice for this
application. This is a low speed, high pressure application

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, because I'm
not an expert on these things.

I'd design an oil bearing system. Duplicate the
original bronze bearing as well as you can then
fit it with several small oil passages and a way
to presurize the oil into them. The goal is to get
the journal to positively ride up on a layer of
oil. This is how lots of big, slow high pressure
bearings work.

Alternately, you could just try to duplicate an
old-style railway journal bearing. As near as
I can remember, it's nothing more than the journal,
a half shell bearing on top and the journal sitting
in oil at about half it's diameter high. Now that's
pretty much what you've described, but without the
oil bath. Is it possible that someone removed
the oil containers years ago?

From what little I know about this application, any lubricants must be
"food grade" materials. They curently use a grease.

There are no signs that there was ever any other lubrication system.

John

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 02:14:58 GMT, Ken Sterling (Ken Sterling) wrote:

snip
My friend looked into converting it to ball bearings, but there
doesn't appear to be enough room. And one of the roller journals is
made with a taper. We assume that the taper is there to handle
thrust in the machine.

Any chance the taper is just "wear"? Maybe good needle bearings
would work instead of ball bearings - although the bearing bronze
mentioned below would probably give you long enough life provided
sufficient lube was available.
Ken.

No, I don't think the taper is from wear. Both journals are too
uniform, while the bearing retainers have significantly different wear
patterns. Just no room for ball or roller bearings.
John

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 23:51:26 -0400, Artemia Salina
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:05:30 +0000, John Normile wrote:

None of the original bearing material is left. Any idea what the
preferred bearing material would be for this application? I am
assuming that a bearing bronze would be the choice for this
application. This is a low speed, high pressure application


I know that it is claimed that cast iron is supposed to
work well as a bearing for hardened steel.

As to Babbitt metal, I was unable to locate the PDF scan
of an old book called "The Magnolia Metal Bearing Book",
as all of the links to it seem to be dead. I had a copy
of it once and it's since been lost, but I do remember
that there are at least two kinds of Babbitt Metal, for
different kinds of applications. If I remember correctly
you would want the type of Babbitt metal that has no lead
in it. I think it is an alloy that is mostly tin, antimony,
and copper.

Oh, wait! I just found a working link:

http://files.owwm.com/PDF/FAQ/Magnolia.pdf

Thanks the babbit info was real interesting.

After looking around for bearing materials, I thought of two other
possibilities. Linnen filled bakelite and UHMW. I believe the
bakelite has the compressive striength, but I am not sure about the
UHMW.

John

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 05:31:12 GMT, (John Normile)
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 23:51:26 -0400, Artemia Salina
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:05:30 +0000, John Normile wrote:


snip

Oh, wait! I just found a working link:

http://files.owwm.com/PDF/FAQ/Magnolia.pdf

Thanks the babbit info was real interesting.

After looking around for bearing materials, I thought of two other
possibilities. Linnen filled bakelite and UHMW. I believe the
bakelite has the compressive striength, but I am not sure about the
UHMW.

John

It doesn't sound like you have the room, but any chance of using wood?
My father used hard maple boiled in oil, then greased for axle
bearings on his levee rollers. These were field implements consisting
of a concrete spool of about 2 tons with a 1-1/2" axle and heavy angle
iron frame. They were pulled behind the "push" which formed the
levees in rice fields. He tried roller bearings, but they failed
within one season. The maple would last for over a decade. This was
a high pressure, low speed, very dirty application.

Pete Keillor

John Normile wrote:

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 23:51:26 -0400, Artemia Salina
wrote:



On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:05:30 +0000, John Normile wrote:



None of the original bearing material is left. Any idea what the
preferred bearing material would be for this application? I am
assuming that a bearing bronze would be the choice for this
application. This is a low speed, high pressure application


I know that it is claimed that cast iron is supposed to
work well as a bearing for hardened steel.

As to Babbitt metal, I was unable to locate the PDF scan
of an old book called "The Magnolia Metal Bearing Book",
as all of the links to it seem to be dead. I had a copy
of it once and it's since been lost, but I do remember
that there are at least two kinds of Babbitt Metal, for
different kinds of applications. If I remember correctly
you would want the type of Babbitt metal that has no lead
in it. I think it is an alloy that is mostly tin, antimony,
and copper.

Oh, wait! I just found a working link:

http://files.owwm.com/PDF/FAQ/Magnolia.pdf



Thanks the babbit info was real interesting.

After looking around for bearing materials, I thought of two other
possibilities. Linnen filled bakelite and UHMW. I believe the
bakelite has the compressive striength, but I am not sure about the
UHMW.

John



UHMW will not work at those pressures. It will tend to cold flow and/or
reach it's yield strength quickly.

The person who posted about wood bearing has an interesting idea. Those
have been used in certain industries for years. Although probably not
the ideal solution, it may get the machine up and running more quickly
so that your friend has time to make final decisions about the bearings.
Heck, you may find that the wood lasts and lasts.

Koz