I just finished pouring footings...

Turns out the only day the kid can help me with the slab is tommorrow
P.M. or 48 hours after the footings. I surfed the web to verify this
is enough cure time, tons of stuff about 1 week and longer vs. time,
could find nada about two days.

I wanted to find PSI compressive strength estimate at 48hours.

Anyone know?

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 11:59:45 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I just finished pouring footings...

Turns out the only day the kid can help me with the slab is tommorrow
P.M. or 48 hours after the footings. I surfed the web to verify this
is enough cure time, tons of stuff about 1 week and longer vs. time,
could find nada about two days.

I wanted to find PSI compressive strength estimate at 48hours.

Anyone know?

I have no experience with such short times. However, the research
shows that, at 50 hours and 70 deg. F, you have between 1/3 and 2/3 of
maximum strength.

Most mixes show around 40% of maximum strength. Higher-strength
mixtures generally show a higher percentage of strength at 50 hours;
weaker mixes show a lower percentage.

Good luck!

--
Ed Huntress

Karl Townsend fired this volley in
:

I just finished pouring footings...

Turns out the only day the kid can help me with the slab is tommorrow
P.M. or 48 hours after the footings. I surfed the web to verify this
is enough cure time, tons of stuff about 1 week and longer vs. time,
could find nada about two days.

I wanted to find PSI compressive strength estimate at 48hours.

Anyone know?

The old manual rule of thumb is 6-6-6-6. Six bags per yard (90lb
Portland), six gallons of water per bag, six percent entrained air, and
six days' wet cure.

At that point, it has to dry enough for the surface to harden. The
compression strength is up by then, but marring of the surface can easily
occur until it's visibly dry. Of course, that's no issue with footers,
only the slab.

Lloyd

Lloyd

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:01:58 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Karl Townsend fired this volley in
:

I just finished pouring footings...

Turns out the only day the kid can help me with the slab is tommorrow
P.M. or 48 hours after the footings. I surfed the web to verify this
is enough cure time, tons of stuff about 1 week and longer vs. time,
could find nada about two days.

I wanted to find PSI compressive strength estimate at 48hours.

Anyone know?

The old manual rule of thumb is 6-6-6-6. Six bags per yard (90lb
Portland), six gallons of water per bag, six percent entrained air, and
six days' wet cure.

At that point, it has to dry enough for the surface to harden. The
compression strength is up by then, but marring of the surface can easily
occur until it's visibly dry. Of course, that's no issue with footers,
only the slab.

Lloyd

Lloyd

I don't know about that "rule of thumb," Lloyd, but concrete hardens
best when it's completely under water. You don't want it to dry at
all. And the surface should harden even when it's soaking wet, if the
mix wasn't too wet to begin with.

Once it dries, the hardening cure stops. It can't be restored. So,
whether it's a couple of days or a couple of years, that's the end of
the road for continued hardening.

Maximum strength is obtained in about three years of continuous
soaking, but the gain after 28 days (a standard for measuring maximum
strength) is very small.

When ferrocement boats were all the rage, back in the '70s, some of
the larger ones were finished and then intentionally sunk and kept
under water for a year. They were made with a standard sand mix, like
some kinds of mortar.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

I don't know about that "rule of thumb," Lloyd, but concrete hardens
best when it's completely under water. You don't want it to dry at
all. And the surface should harden even when it's soaking wet, if the
mix wasn't too wet to begin with.

You don't read, do you, Ed?

What about "six days' WET cure" didn't you understand?
The surface will not become durable until it dries, but it has to cure
throughout first.

Pay attention. You might learn something -- like how to read.

Lloyd

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:34:56 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

I don't know about that "rule of thumb," Lloyd, but concrete hardens
best when it's completely under water. You don't want it to dry at
all. And the surface should harden even when it's soaking wet, if the
mix wasn't too wet to begin with.

You don't read, do you, Ed?

What about "six days' WET cure" didn't you understand?

Oh, I think I understand it pretty well, Lloyd

The surface will not become durable until it dries, but it has to cure
throughout first.

The surface is "durable" as soon as it cures. It has nothing to do
with "drying," unless you screwed up.


Pay attention. You might learn something -- like how to read.

Ok, Mr. Over-the-Top. For almost 20 years, I studied, wrote about, and
experimented with post-tensioned concrete and ferrocement. I'm well
aware of how Portland cement concrete cures.

Your comments suggest that, like many concrete workers, you're used to
working with overly wet mixtures that are soft on top, NOT because
there was water on top, but because the mix was too wet to begin with
and settled out before it cured, it was poorly mixed, or it was hit
too hard with a hose as soon as it was poured. Portland cement does
NOT harden upon "drying."

Now, you want to challenge that? Go ahead.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

Portland cement does
NOT harden upon "drying."



It's a pity, that after those decades of 'study' you never learned
anything about surfacing and finishing.

Structural strength is the most important aspect, of course, but you
obviously haven't a clue about what it takes to make 'skating rink'
quality finishes.

A wet portland surface marrs more easily than a dry one.

Even 'burnt' hard-trowled finishes must dry before friction traffic is
allowed on them.

No, I'm not one of those idiots who thinks "concrete has to dry to cure".
I know for a fact that a finished surface on a Portland slab has to dry
to achieve ultimate durability.

"Post-tensioning" and "ferro-cement" are affiliated with structures, not
finishes.

Like I said... you don't read, even about what you 'study' for 20 years.

LLoyd

Ed Huntress on Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:12:40
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:01:58 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Karl Townsend fired this volley in
m:

I just finished pouring footings...

Turns out the only day the kid can help me with the slab is tommorrow
P.M. or 48 hours after the footings. I surfed the web to verify this
is enough cure time, tons of stuff about 1 week and longer vs. time,
could find nada about two days.

I wanted to find PSI compressive strength estimate at 48hours.

Anyone know?

The old manual rule of thumb is 6-6-6-6. Six bags per yard (90lb
Portland), six gallons of water per bag, six percent entrained air, and
six days' wet cure.

At that point, it has to dry enough for the surface to harden. The
compression strength is up by then, but marring of the surface can easily
occur until it's visibly dry. Of course, that's no issue with footers,
only the slab.

Lloyd

Lloyd

I don't know about that "rule of thumb," Lloyd, but concrete hardens
best when it's completely under water. You don't want it to dry at
all. And the surface should harden even when it's soaking wet, if the
mix wasn't too wet to begin with.

Ah, that explains why my dad covered the patio with burlap bags
and kept wetting them down.

Once it dries, the hardening cure stops. It can't be restored. So,
whether it's a couple of days or a couple of years, that's the end of
the road for continued hardening.

Maximum strength is obtained in about three years of continuous
soaking, but the gain after 28 days (a standard for measuring maximum
strength) is very small.

When ferrocement boats were all the rage, back in the '70s, some of
the larger ones were finished and then intentionally sunk and kept
under water for a year. They were made with a standard sand mix, like
some kinds of mortar.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:56:45 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

Portland cement does
NOT harden upon "drying."



It's a pity, that after those decades of 'study' you never learned
anything about surfacing and finishing.

Structural strength is the most important aspect, of course, but you
obviously haven't a clue about what it takes to make 'skating rink'
quality finishes.

A wet portland surface marrs more easily than a dry one.

What you said, and I objected to, was this:

"At that point, it has to dry enough for the surface to harden."

The surface doesn't get any harder by drying.

"The compression strength is up by then, but marring of the surface
can easily occur until it's visibly dry."

That may be, but it's not because the surface is harder. It would be
because the surface is dryer.

Once concrete is cured, if any part is soft, it's because it wasn't
mixed or handled right. If it's wet, and it's soft, it will be powdery
or flaky when it's dry.

But it doesn't get any "harder." It just gets less wet. And if it was
wet and soft at the surface, because water floated to the top before
it was cured (too much water in the mix, or other handling issues), it
will be dry and equally soft when it dries.

Even 'burnt' hard-trowled finishes must dry before friction traffic is
allowed on them.

No, I'm not one of those idiots who thinks "concrete has to dry to cure".
I know for a fact that a finished surface on a Portland slab has to dry
to achieve ultimate durability.

"Durability" is ambiguous and I wouldn't have argued it. "Harden" is
not ambiguous. And it is not correct.


"Post-tensioning" and "ferro-cement" are affiliated with structures, not
finishes.

The hardness and behavior of Portland cement concrete doesn't care if
it's in a bridge or a garage floor.


Like I said... you don't read, even about what you 'study' for 20 years.

LLoyd

I read Ok. You just don't write. You said the surface has to be dry
enough to "harden." That's what I objected to.

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 12:55:52 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Ed Huntress on Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:12:40
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:01:58 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Karl Townsend fired this volley in
:

I just finished pouring footings...

Turns out the only day the kid can help me with the slab is tommorrow
P.M. or 48 hours after the footings. I surfed the web to verify this
is enough cure time, tons of stuff about 1 week and longer vs. time,
could find nada about two days.

I wanted to find PSI compressive strength estimate at 48hours.

Anyone know?

The old manual rule of thumb is 6-6-6-6. Six bags per yard (90lb
Portland), six gallons of water per bag, six percent entrained air, and
six days' wet cure.

At that point, it has to dry enough for the surface to harden. The
compression strength is up by then, but marring of the surface can easily
occur until it's visibly dry. Of course, that's no issue with footers,
only the slab.

Lloyd

Lloyd

I don't know about that "rule of thumb," Lloyd, but concrete hardens
best when it's completely under water. You don't want it to dry at
all. And the surface should harden even when it's soaking wet, if the
mix wasn't too wet to begin with.

Ah, that explains why my dad covered the patio with burlap bags
and kept wetting them down.

Yep, that's the common old method, and it's still a good one. You
don't want any water standing on it until it reaches an initial cure
(I forget the stages of cure). After that, keep it as wet as you can
for as long as you can, if you want maximum strength. If it dries out,
curing is done for.


Once it dries, the hardening cure stops. It can't be restored. So,
whether it's a couple of days or a couple of years, that's the end of
the road for continued hardening.

Maximum strength is obtained in about three years of continuous
soaking, but the gain after 28 days (a standard for measuring maximum
strength) is very small.

When ferrocement boats were all the rage, back in the '70s, some of
the larger ones were finished and then intentionally sunk and kept
under water for a year. They were made with a standard sand mix, like
some kinds of mortar.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

Yep, that's the common old method, and it's still a good one. You
don't want any water standing on it until it reaches an initial cure
(I forget the stages of cure).

It's _easy_ to tell when that 'initial cure' has occurred. When the
concrete sucks up all of its surface water, and becomes 'solid' (not dry)
to the touch, the initial cure has occurred. You can scratch it with a
fingernail, but not disturb the surface with the ball of your finger.

At that point, if you're not finishing, let it sit another couple of
hours to make sure the whole of the surface is at the same level of cure,
then gently flood it with water, and keep it that wet for six days.
It'll achieve about 75% of it's ultimate strength in (about) six days.

If you want to finish it, on the other hand, you have mere minutes to get
trowels on the surface before it becomes too hard to move the surface
material around. For 'hard troweling', you may have to do it in steps,
because when you move the cement (not the aggs) around, you break up the
gypsum crystals it's forming; it becomes motile again, and must re-cure
for a time between trowelings.

Lloyd

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:27:03 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 11:59:45 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I just finished pouring footings...

Turns out the only day the kid can help me with the slab is tommorrow
P.M. or 48 hours after the footings. I surfed the web to verify this
is enough cure time, tons of stuff about 1 week and longer vs. time,
could find nada about two days.

I wanted to find PSI compressive strength estimate at 48hours.

Anyone know?

I have no experience with such short times. However, the research
shows that, at 50 hours and 70 deg. F, you have between 1/3 and 2/3 of
maximum strength.

Most mixes show around 40% of maximum strength. Higher-strength
mixtures generally show a higher percentage of strength at 50 hours;
weaker mixes show a lower percentage.

Good luck!

Thanks Ed. I just did a rough calc of 400 lb/ft2 max force on the
footing for the final pour so I'm in great shape. I had guessed the
number to be three times that. i guess that's why we do engineering.

Sorry about the **** match below.

karl

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 16:38:31 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:27:03 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 11:59:45 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I just finished pouring footings...

Turns out the only day the kid can help me with the slab is tommorrow
P.M. or 48 hours after the footings. I surfed the web to verify this
is enough cure time, tons of stuff about 1 week and longer vs. time,
could find nada about two days.

I wanted to find PSI compressive strength estimate at 48hours.

Anyone know?

I have no experience with such short times. However, the research
shows that, at 50 hours and 70 deg. F, you have between 1/3 and 2/3 of
maximum strength.

Most mixes show around 40% of maximum strength. Higher-strength
mixtures generally show a higher percentage of strength at 50 hours;
weaker mixes show a lower percentage.

Good luck!

Thanks Ed. I just did a rough calc of 400 lb/ft2 max force on the
footing for the final pour so I'm in great shape. I had guessed the
number to be three times that. i guess that's why we do engineering.

Sorry about the **** match below.

karl

Eh, what else is new? d8-)

Lloyd doesn't usually start off like that. Maybe he had a bad day.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

Lloyd doesn't usually start off like that. Maybe he had a bad day.

Lloyd had a real bad day... Customer to whom I'm delivering a $250K
machine Monday (this Monday coming) called to say that per the Army the
specs had changed. It'll take about $5K and three weeks to change.
They'll pay... in about five months... but in the meantime, I'm hanging
on the hook for salaries, overhead, and materials for the changes and the
time. And no pay for the machine itself until they 'approve' it, as
delivered.

Sorry for my outburst. That's not me, usually. I'm just generally
****ed today; even at myself.

LLoyd

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:29:19 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

Lloyd doesn't usually start off like that. Maybe he had a bad day.

Lloyd had a real bad day... Customer to whom I'm delivering a $250K
machine Monday (this Monday coming) called to say that per the Army the
specs had changed. It'll take about $5K and three weeks to change.
They'll pay... in about five months... but in the meantime, I'm hanging
on the hook for salaries, overhead, and materials for the changes and the
time. And no pay for the machine itself until they 'approve' it, as
delivered.

Sorry for my outburst. That's not me, usually. I'm just generally
****ed today; even at myself.

LLoyd

Oh, jeez! Bad day ain't the word for it. Sheesh.

Hey, Lloyd, if it makes you feel any better, you can call me some of
the names that Klaus calls me. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

pyotr filipivich wrote:
Ed Huntress on Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:12:40
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:01:58 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Karl Townsend fired this volley in
:

I just finished pouring footings...

Turns out the only day the kid can help me with the slab is
tommorrow P.M. or 48 hours after the footings. I surfed the web to
verify this is enough cure time, tons of stuff about 1 week and
longer vs. time, could find nada about two days.

I wanted to find PSI compressive strength estimate at 48hours.

Anyone know?

The old manual rule of thumb is 6-6-6-6. Six bags per yard (90lb
Portland), six gallons of water per bag, six percent entrained air,
and six days' wet cure.

At that point, it has to dry enough for the surface to harden. The
compression strength is up by then, but marring of the surface can
easily occur until it's visibly dry. Of course, that's no issue
with footers, only the slab.

Lloyd

Lloyd

I don't know about that "rule of thumb," Lloyd, but concrete hardens
best when it's completely under water. You don't want it to dry at
all. And the surface should harden even when it's soaking wet, if the
mix wasn't too wet to begin with.

Ah, that explains why my dad covered the patio with burlap bags
and kept wetting them down.

Once it dries, the hardening cure stops. It can't be restored. So,
whether it's a couple of days or a couple of years, that's the end of
the road for continued hardening.

Maximum strength is obtained in about three years of continuous
soaking, but the gain after 28 days (a standard for measuring maximum
strength) is very small.

When ferrocement boats were all the rage, back in the '70s, some of
the larger ones were finished and then intentionally sunk and kept
under water for a year. They were made with a standard sand mix, like
some kinds of mortar.

Does this mean the stonework I'm doing wood stove pad of 2"+- Arkansas
field stone, then up the wall with same has to be covered with wet burlap
for 6 days ? I sure don't want the concrete to be weak !

--
Snag

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 18:20:23 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

pyotr filipivich wrote:
Ed Huntress on Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:12:40
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:01:58 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Karl Townsend fired this volley in
:

I just finished pouring footings...

Turns out the only day the kid can help me with the slab is
tommorrow P.M. or 48 hours after the footings. I surfed the web to
verify this is enough cure time, tons of stuff about 1 week and
longer vs. time, could find nada about two days.

I wanted to find PSI compressive strength estimate at 48hours.

Anyone know?

The old manual rule of thumb is 6-6-6-6. Six bags per yard (90lb
Portland), six gallons of water per bag, six percent entrained air,
and six days' wet cure.

At that point, it has to dry enough for the surface to harden. The
compression strength is up by then, but marring of the surface can
easily occur until it's visibly dry. Of course, that's no issue
with footers, only the slab.

Lloyd

Lloyd

I don't know about that "rule of thumb," Lloyd, but concrete hardens
best when it's completely under water. You don't want it to dry at
all. And the surface should harden even when it's soaking wet, if the
mix wasn't too wet to begin with.

Ah, that explains why my dad covered the patio with burlap bags
and kept wetting them down.

Once it dries, the hardening cure stops. It can't be restored. So,
whether it's a couple of days or a couple of years, that's the end of
the road for continued hardening.

Maximum strength is obtained in about three years of continuous
soaking, but the gain after 28 days (a standard for measuring maximum
strength) is very small.

When ferrocement boats were all the rage, back in the '70s, some of
the larger ones were finished and then intentionally sunk and kept
under water for a year. They were made with a standard sand mix, like
some kinds of mortar.

Does this mean the stonework I'm doing wood stove pad of 2"+- Arkansas
field stone, then up the wall with same has to be covered with wet burlap
for 6 days ? I sure don't want the concrete to be weak !

It depends on what kind of mortar you're using. 'Better follow the
supplier's instructions.

--
Ed Huntress

On 8/23/2014 10:15 AM, wrote:
On Friday, August 22, 2014 6:29:19 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Ed fired this volley in

:

Lloyd doesn't usually start off like that. Maybe he had a bad day.

Lloyd had a real bad day.. Customer to whom I'm delivering a $250K

machine Monday (this Monday coming) called to say...

Lloyd you have a bad day every day. Cut the bullcrap excuses.


Plonk

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

It depends on what kind of mortar you're using. 'Better follow the
supplier's instructions.

Most lime mortars cure well wet or dry, but tend to effloresce if kept wet
after curing, about like plasters do, but not nearly so badly. Do as
block/brick/stone masons do. Put it on as wet as will sustain the load of
the stone/brick/block, and just let it cure until cheezy enough to strike
the joints -- then leave it be.

Lloyd

So long as you keep it wet, you can also hurry things along by getting
it hotter - so if the sun is shining for you, toss some plastic over it,
with a soaker hose under if needed. "Standard cure temp" is 70F - about
twice as slow at 50 F, about twice as fast at 90F, and darn fast if you
have an autoclave handy...

ie, 3-1/2 days at 90F and 14 days at 50F are both about the same as a
"standard" 7 day cure at 70F - so long as you keep it wet.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 11:59:45 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

I just finished pouring footings...

Turns out the only day the kid can help me with the slab is tommorrow
P.M. or 48 hours after the footings. I surfed the web to verify this
is enough cure time, tons of stuff about 1 week and longer vs. time,
could find nada about two days.

I wouldn't go near any poured footings for at least a week, Karl.
As important as they are, I definitely wouldn't fool with it.


I wanted to find PSI compressive strength estimate at 48hours.

Less than 50%, as stated by all the concrete guys I've talked with.
I've seen fence post crete jobs broken 2 days, splitting the
cylinder of crete in half when kids went climbing the crossbars before
pickets went up.


Anyone know?

http://www.forconstructionpros.com/a...th-of-concrete

--
The unexamined life is not worth living.
--Socrates

On 8/22/2014 11:59 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
I just finished pouring footings...

Turns out the only day the kid can help me with the slab is tommorrow
P.M. or 48 hours after the footings. I surfed the web to verify this
is enough cure time, tons of stuff about 1 week and longer vs. time,
could find nada about two days.

I wanted to find PSI compressive strength estimate at 48hours.

Anyone know?

As I recall, just built a 26x70' steel building with 6" nominal floor
and beams and deep wells all around.

The cement guy stated 60% in 48 hours. They were driving a massive
beam fork lift up on it without issue, moving steel beams and heavy
iron. The bolts were tightened, but not hard, had to get the other
steel up in case it had to move a bit - wiggle room...

It depends partly on the formula and such. Mine was 7000 psi cement.
I have a 150 gallon fish tank 12" from the edge of the cement but it
sits on a pier the size of an icebox sideways and standing! My safe
is on a pier that is the size of a freezer downwards. We wanted to get
enough mass that it would not rotate under load.

Martin

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

It depends on what kind of mortar you're using. 'Better follow the
supplier's instructions.

Most lime mortars cure well wet or dry, but tend to effloresce if
kept wet after curing, about like plasters do, but not nearly so
badly. Do as block/brick/stone masons do. Put it on as wet as will
sustain the load of the stone/brick/block, and just let it cure until
cheezy enough to strike the joints -- then leave it be.

Lloyd

Well ... I'm bedding the floor stones graded 2"-2 1/2" thick in a mix
of 5 parts masonry mix , 1 portland , 3 sand , and 1thinset mortar . This
gives a mortar that's really sticky when mixed on the dry side and stays
very plastic as it sets . Makes it possible to adjust a rock that's been set
for a few minutes without breaking the bond . I'm also laying on top of a
layer of tarpaper so differential expansion wood sub , 3/4" Advantech with
1/2" OSB screwed and glued doesn't tear things up . I'll be covering it
with plastic when I finish filling the joints . Then , it'll be the wall ...
which is a totally different technique . It'll also be covered with a vapor
barrier for a couple of weeks minimum .
Actually , I was being sarcastic when I asked that question ... I still
remember when my Grandpa poured the floor for his garage , several hours
after they finished troweling it he scattered some straw over it and covered
it with tarps to control evaporation . I had to be like 10 or 11 , which
would put it around 1962 or 63 ...
--
Snag

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:01:21 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

It depends on what kind of mortar you're using. 'Better follow the
supplier's instructions.

Most lime mortars cure well wet or dry, but tend to effloresce if
kept wet after curing, about like plasters do, but not nearly so
badly. Do as block/brick/stone masons do. Put it on as wet as will
sustain the load of the stone/brick/block, and just let it cure until
cheezy enough to strike the joints -- then leave it be.

Lloyd

Well ... I'm bedding the floor stones graded 2"-2 1/2" thick in a mix
of 5 parts masonry mix , 1 portland , 3 sand , and 1thinset mortar . This
gives a mortar that's really sticky when mixed on the dry side and stays
very plastic as it sets . Makes it possible to adjust a rock that's been set
for a few minutes without breaking the bond .

That's sure nice. I had a fun time with mortar when I did my first
cobblestone walkway set in mortar, but it has stood the test of time
(7 years) so far. It's harder to get a single stone's surrounding
mortar to reliquify for resetting, but it's doable. I used a thick
piece of wire made into an L-shaped hook to lift the low stones to
level, bouncing them up-and-down to get the mortar back under them.


I'm also laying on top of a
layer of tarpaper so differential expansion wood sub , 3/4" Advantech with
1/2" OSB screwed and glued doesn't tear things up .

Good!


I'll be covering it
with plastic when I finish filling the joints . Then , it'll be the wall ...
which is a totally different technique . It'll also be covered with a vapor
barrier for a couple of weeks minimum .

How do you like the Advantech over regular ply?


Actually , I was being sarcastic when I asked that question ... I still
remember when my Grandpa poured the floor for his garage , several hours
after they finished troweling it he scattered some straw over it and covered
it with tarps to control evaporation . I had to be like 10 or 11 , which
would put it around 1962 or 63 ...

Wow, they had concrete way back then?

I set (actually, reset) my first fake stones yesterday. Four pieces
of stone veneer (limestone-like hypertufa) onto the outside of a
garage wall. Researching adhesives for it, I could either buy a $45
bag (50#) of thinset or use LiquidNails. I chose a tube of LN for
$2.39. It didn't even pretend to hold the stone up to the mortar, so
I looked around and asked the lady for a large plastic bag and some
old rags or something. She had 4 boxes of winter clothes in the
garage so I used some of those. I filled the bag with clothes, tossed
loosely into the bag, then squished it up against the stone, using the
other boxes of clothing to press against the bag. Worked just great!
Steady firm pressure all over the face of the stones, holding them to
the wall for the hours until the LN set up. I was applauded for my
ingenuity, which is always nice.

--
The unexamined life is not worth living.
--Socrates

On Friday, August 22, 2014 6:29:19 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Ed Huntress fired this volley in

:

Lloyd doesn't usually start off like that. Maybe he had a bad day.

Lloyd had a real bad day.. Customer to whom I'm delivering a $250K

machine Monday (this Monday coming) called to say...

Lloyd you have a bad day every day. Cut the bullcrap excuses.

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:01:21 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:


Well ... I'm bedding the floor stones graded 2"-2 1/2" thick in
a mix of 5 parts masonry mix , 1 portland , 3 sand , and 1thinset
mortar . This gives a mortar that's really sticky when mixed on the
dry side and stays very plastic as it sets . Makes it possible to
adjust a rock that's been set for a few minutes without breaking the
bond .

That's sure nice. I had a fun time with mortar when I did my first
cobblestone walkway set in mortar, but it has stood the test of time
(7 years) so far. It's harder to get a single stone's surrounding
mortar to reliquify for resetting, but it's doable. I used a thick
piece of wire made into an L-shaped hook to lift the low stones to
level, bouncing them up-and-down to get the mortar back under them.


I'm also laying on top of a
layer of tarpaper so differential expansion wood sub , 3/4"
Advantech with 1/2" OSB screwed and glued doesn't tear things up .

Good!


I'll be covering it
with plastic when I finish filling the joints . Then , it'll be the
wall ... which is a totally different technique . It'll also be
covered with a vapor barrier for a couple of weeks minimum .

How do you like the Advantech over regular ply?

It's great . Very stable , more rigid than plywood , and it doesn't swell
up and start shedding if it gets wet . This floor got rained on twice before
I got the roof on , no damage at all . Don't even think you can hand-nail it
though ... I used my framing nailer .



Actually , I was being sarcastic when I asked that question ... I
still remember when my Grandpa poured the floor for his garage ,
several hours after they finished troweling it he scattered some
straw over it and covered it with tarps to control evaporation . I
had to be like 10 or 11 , which would put it around 1962 or 63 ...

Wow, they had concrete way back then?

And even before , if you believe history !


I set (actually, reset) my first fake stones yesterday. Four pieces
of stone veneer (limestone-like hypertufa) onto the outside of a
garage wall. Researching adhesives for it, I could either buy a $45
bag (50#) of thinset or use LiquidNails. I chose a tube of LN for
$2.39. It didn't even pretend to hold the stone up to the mortar, so
I looked around and asked the lady for a large plastic bag and some
old rags or something. She had 4 boxes of winter clothes in the
garage so I used some of those. I filled the bag with clothes, tossed
loosely into the bag, then squished it up against the stone, using the
other boxes of clothing to press against the bag. Worked just great!
Steady firm pressure all over the face of the stones, holding them to
the wall for the hours until the LN set up. I was applauded for my
ingenuity, which is always nice.


Ingenuity indeed ! I'll have to remember that trick , bet it'd work on
reattaching almost any veneer product .
--
Snag

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:01:21 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Ed Huntress fired this volley in
:

It depends on what kind of mortar you're using. 'Better follow the
supplier's instructions.
Most lime mortars cure well wet or dry, but tend to effloresce if
kept wet after curing, about like plasters do, but not nearly so
badly. Do as block/brick/stone masons do. Put it on as wet as will
sustain the load of the stone/brick/block, and just let it cure until
cheezy enough to strike the joints -- then leave it be.

Lloyd
Well ... I'm bedding the floor stones graded 2"-2 1/2" thick in a mix
of 5 parts masonry mix , 1 portland , 3 sand , and 1thinset mortar . This
gives a mortar that's really sticky when mixed on the dry side and stays
very plastic as it sets . Makes it possible to adjust a rock that's been set
for a few minutes without breaking the bond .

That's sure nice. I had a fun time with mortar when I did my first
cobblestone walkway set in mortar, but it has stood the test of time
(7 years) so far. It's harder to get a single stone's surrounding
mortar to reliquify for resetting, but it's doable. I used a thick
piece of wire made into an L-shaped hook to lift the low stones to
level, bouncing them up-and-down to get the mortar back under them.


I'm also laying on top of a
layer of tarpaper so differential expansion wood sub , 3/4" Advantech with
1/2" OSB screwed and glued doesn't tear things up .

Good!


I'll be covering it
with plastic when I finish filling the joints . Then , it'll be the wall ...
which is a totally different technique . It'll also be covered with a vapor
barrier for a couple of weeks minimum .

How do you like the Advantech over regular ply?


Actually , I was being sarcastic when I asked that question ... I still
remember when my Grandpa poured the floor for his garage , several hours
after they finished troweling it he scattered some straw over it and covered
it with tarps to control evaporation . I had to be like 10 or 11 , which
would put it around 1962 or 63 ...

Wow, they had concrete way back then?

I set (actually, reset) my first fake stones yesterday. Four pieces
of stone veneer (limestone-like hypertufa) onto the outside of a
garage wall. Researching adhesives for it, I could either buy a $45
bag (50#) of thinset or use LiquidNails. I chose a tube of LN for
$2.39. It didn't even pretend to hold the stone up to the mortar, so
I looked around and asked the lady for a large plastic bag and some
old rags or something. She had 4 boxes of winter clothes in the
garage so I used some of those. I filled the bag with clothes, tossed
loosely into the bag, then squished it up against the stone, using the
other boxes of clothing to press against the bag. Worked just great!
Steady firm pressure all over the face of the stones, holding them to
the wall for the hours until the LN set up. I was applauded for my
ingenuity, which is always nice.

--
The unexamined life is not worth living.
--Socrates

I used a LN stone/block adhesive to repair headstones about 10 years
ago. These were the old marble stones. Some were old weathered breaks.
Figured there wasn't much to lose. Cleaned off the joints, applied the
goo and stuck them together. Had to brace them in place. Came back a
week later and pulled the braces. Stuff is still holding just fine
today! Only issue was that the glue was an amber color, I took some
marble dust and mixed it with some clear epoxy and "painted" the glue.
That has taken the weather very well.

The only time a LN branded product has failed me, I'm pretty sure the
tube was ancient. In that one I glued some treated lumber up and the
joints failed.

--
Steve W.

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:01:21 -0500, "Terry Coombs"

wrote:
Actually , I was being sarcastic when I asked that question ... I
still remember when my Grandpa poured the floor for his garage ,
several hours after they finished troweling it he scattered some
straw over it and covered it with tarps to control evaporation . I
had to be like 10 or 11 , which would put it around 1962 or 63 ...

Wow, they had concrete way back then?

And even before , if you believe history !


Italian contractors were pouring concrete in 300 BC, and it still
hasn't completely cured.

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:26:38 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:01:21 -0500, "Terry Coombs"

wrote:
Actually , I was being sarcastic when I asked that question ... I
still remember when my Grandpa poured the floor for his garage ,
several hours after they finished troweling it he scattered some
straw over it and covered it with tarps to control evaporation . I
had to be like 10 or 11 , which would put it around 1962 or 63 ...

Wow, they had concrete way back then?

And even before , if you believe history !


Italian contractors were pouring concrete in 300 BC, and it still
hasn't completely cured.

That's good reason to be wary of Italian contractors. "We'll be back
to finish the job when it's completely cured." d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Saturday, August 23, 2014 12:26:38 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message

...

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:01:21 -0500, "Terry Coombs"



wrote:

Actually , I was being sarcastic when I asked that question ... I

still remember when my Grandpa poured the floor for his garage ,

several hours after they finished troweling it he scattered some

straw over it and covered it with tarps to control evaporation . I

had to be like 10 or 11 , which would put it around 1962 or 63 ...

Wow, they had concrete way back then?

And even before , if you believe history !

Italian contractors were pouring concrete in 300 BC, and it still

hasn't completely cured.

"Ready mixed concrete was first used in Germany in 1903"
-- etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12609528/index.pdf

I assume that's the type this thread has been referring to. But even the Sumerians described concrete. The Sumerian timeline dates from 3000 BC.

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 09:53:11 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Saturday, August 23, 2014 12:26:38 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message

...

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:01:21 -0500, "Terry Coombs"



wrote:

Actually , I was being sarcastic when I asked that question ... I

still remember when my Grandpa poured the floor for his garage ,

several hours after they finished troweling it he scattered some

straw over it and covered it with tarps to control evaporation . I

had to be like 10 or 11 , which would put it around 1962 or 63 ...

Wow, they had concrete way back then?

And even before , if you believe history !

Italian contractors were pouring concrete in 300 BC, and it still

hasn't completely cured.

"Ready mixed concrete was first used in Germany in 1903"
-- etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12609528/index.pdf

I assume that's the type this thread has been referring to. But even the Sumerians described concrete. The Sumerian timeline dates from 3000 BC.

Portland cement is "regular cement" in the US. In Western Europe, they
often mix in a large percentage of Pozzolan. Their strengths are
similar but Portland cement cures faster.

At least by 1000 BC, the ancients were making Pozzolan cement in much
the same way a lot of it is made today: fine-ground, reactive types of
volcanic ash, mixed with slaked lime.

Pozzolan has been used for thousands of years, while Portland cement
has been around for about 150 years.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 08:15:50 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Friday, August 22, 2014 6:29:19 PM UTC-4, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Ed Huntress fired this volley in

:

Lloyd doesn't usually start off like that. Maybe he had a bad day.

Lloyd had a real bad day.. Customer to whom I'm delivering a $250K

machine Monday (this Monday coming) called to say...

Lloyd you have a bad day every day. Cut the bullcrap excuses.

plink


--
"Living in the United States now is like being a Tampon.
We're in a great place, just at a bad time."

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:17:18 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:01:21 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:


Well ... I'm bedding the floor stones graded 2"-2 1/2" thick in
a mix of 5 parts masonry mix , 1 portland , 3 sand , and 1thinset
mortar . This gives a mortar that's really sticky when mixed on the
dry side and stays very plastic as it sets . Makes it possible to
adjust a rock that's been set for a few minutes without breaking the
bond .

That's sure nice. I had a fun time with mortar when I did my first
cobblestone walkway set in mortar, but it has stood the test of time
(7 years) so far. It's harder to get a single stone's surrounding
mortar to reliquify for resetting, but it's doable. I used a thick
piece of wire made into an L-shaped hook to lift the low stones to
level, bouncing them up-and-down to get the mortar back under them.


I'm also laying on top of a
layer of tarpaper so differential expansion wood sub , 3/4"
Advantech with 1/2" OSB screwed and glued doesn't tear things up .

Good!


I'll be covering it
with plastic when I finish filling the joints . Then , it'll be the
wall ... which is a totally different technique . It'll also be
covered with a vapor barrier for a couple of weeks minimum .

How do you like the Advantech over regular ply?

It's great . Very stable , more rigid than plywood , and it doesn't swell
up and start shedding if it gets wet . This floor got rained on twice before
I got the roof on , no damage at all . Don't even think you can hand-nail it
though ... I used my framing nailer .

I usually screw things down, so I'd likely drill prior to screwing.
I've seen it advertised in my building mags and might have tried it
before now, but the closest source is Medford. That's an hour R/T.


Actually , I was being sarcastic when I asked that question ... I
still remember when my Grandpa poured the floor for his garage ,
several hours after they finished troweling it he scattered some
straw over it and covered it with tarps to control evaporation . I
had to be like 10 or 11 , which would put it around 1962 or 63 ...

Wow, they had concrete way back then?

And even before , if you believe history !

Imagine that!


I set (actually, reset) my first fake stones yesterday. Four pieces
of stone veneer (limestone-like hypertufa) onto the outside of a
garage wall. Researching adhesives for it, I could either buy a $45
bag (50#) of thinset or use LiquidNails. I chose a tube of LN for
$2.39. It didn't even pretend to hold the stone up to the mortar, so
I looked around and asked the lady for a large plastic bag and some
old rags or something. She had 4 boxes of winter clothes in the
garage so I used some of those. I filled the bag with clothes, tossed
loosely into the bag, then squished it up against the stone, using the
other boxes of clothing to press against the bag. Worked just great!
Steady firm pressure all over the face of the stones, holding them to
the wall for the hours until the LN set up. I was applauded for my
ingenuity, which is always nice.


Ingenuity indeed ! I'll have to remember that trick , bet it'd work on
reattaching almost any veneer product .

I didn't have a weather balloon handy, so I settled for wadded
clothes.

--
The unexamined life is not worth living.
--Socrates

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:26:38 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:01:21 -0500, "Terry Coombs"

wrote:
Actually , I was being sarcastic when I asked that question ... I
still remember when my Grandpa poured the floor for his garage ,
several hours after they finished troweling it he scattered some
straw over it and covered it with tarps to control evaporation . I
had to be like 10 or 11 , which would put it around 1962 or 63 ...

Wow, they had concrete way back then?

And even before , if you believe history !


Italian contractors were pouring concrete in 300 BC, and it still
hasn't completely cured.

Why is it sick?

--
The unexamined life is not worth living.
--Socrates

On 8/23/2014 5:25 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Italian contractors were pouring concrete in 300 BC, and it still
hasn't completely cured.

Why is it sick?

--
The unexamined life is not worth living.
--Socrates


excessive dehydration?

On 8/23/2014 12:10 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 09:53:11 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Saturday, August 23, 2014 12:26:38 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message

...

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:01:21 -0500, "Terry Coombs"



wrote:

Actually , I was being sarcastic when I asked that question ... I

still remember when my Grandpa poured the floor for his garage ,

several hours after they finished troweling it he scattered some

straw over it and covered it with tarps to control evaporation . I

had to be like 10 or 11 , which would put it around 1962 or 63 ...

Wow, they had concrete way back then?

And even before , if you believe history !

Italian contractors were pouring concrete in 300 BC, and it still

hasn't completely cured.

"Ready mixed concrete was first used in Germany in 1903"
-- etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12609528/index.pdf

I assume that's the type this thread has been referring to. But even the Sumerians described concrete. The Sumerian timeline dates from 3000 BC.

Portland cement is "regular cement" in the US. In Western Europe, they
often mix in a large percentage of Pozzolan. Their strengths are
similar but Portland cement cures faster.

At least by 1000 BC, the ancients were making Pozzolan cement in much
the same way a lot of it is made today: fine-ground, reactive types of
volcanic ash, mixed with slaked lime.

Pozzolan has been used for thousands of years, while Portland cement
has been around for about 150 years.

Pozzolan, being made with volcanic ash, has the unique ability to cure
in salt water. Piers and mooring points were done by the Romans and the
Japanese before and during WWII.

Martin

In article ,
"Terry Coombs" wrote:

Don't even think you can hand-nail it
though ... I used my framing nailer .

You can, but you'll bend a lot of the specified nails unless you have
some superhuman ability, or predrill, perhaps. I did 1000+ square feet
hand-nailing with the specified ring-shank nails and some volunteer
helpers, and we learned to just give up and yank & try again when the
first bend took place, as there was no getting it right after that. It's
also glued down.

I neither own nor want to own or rent a nailer. Hammers suit me fine.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On Saturday, August 23, 2014 10:36:26 PM UTC-4, Martin Eastburn wrote:
On 8/23/2014 12:10 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 09:53:11 -0700 (PDT),

wrote:

On Saturday, August 23, 2014 12:26:38 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message



...

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:01:21 -0500, "Terry Coombs"



wrote:

Actually , I was being sarcastic when I asked that question ... I

still remember when my Grandpa poured the floor for his garage ,

several hours after they finished troweling it he scattered some

straw over it and covered it with tarps to control evaporation . I

had to be like 10 or 11 , which would put it around 1962 or 63 ...

Wow, they had concrete way back then?

And even before , if you believe history !

Italian contractors were pouring concrete in 300 BC, and it still

hasn't completely cured.

"Ready mixed concrete was first used in Germany in 1903"

-- etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12609528/index.pdf

I assume that's the type this thread has been referring to. But even the Sumerians described concrete. The Sumerian timeline dates from 3000 BC.

Portland cement is "regular cement" in the US. In Western Europe, they

often mix in a large percentage of Pozzolan. Their strengths are

similar but Portland cement cures faster.

At least by 1000 BC, the ancients were making Pozzolan cement in much

the same way a lot of it is made today: fine-ground, reactive types of

volcanic ash, mixed with slaked lime.

Pozzolan has been used for thousands of years, while Portland cement

has been around for about 150 years.

Pozzolan, being made with volcanic ash, has the unique ability to cure

in salt water. Piers and mooring points were done by the Romans and the

Japanese before and during WWII.

He someone said in a: "textbook that sal****er will work, but the total compressive strength will be 10%-15% lower"
-- http://www.contractortalk.com/f4/eff...ncrete-123800/

On 8/24/2014 10:43 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, August 23, 2014 10:36:26 PM UTC-4, Martin Eastburn wrote:
....
Pozzolan, being made with volcanic ash, has the unique ability to cure

in salt water. ...


He someone said in a: "textbook that sal****er will work, but the total compressive strength will be 10%-15% lower"
-- http://www.contractortalk.com/f4/eff...ncrete-123800/


Curing IN salt water is different from mixing WITH salt water

At least by 1000 BC, the ancients were making Pozzolan cement in much
the same way a lot of it is made today: fine-ground, reactive types of
volcanic ash, mixed with slaked lime.

Pozzolan has been used for thousands of years, while Portland cement
has been around for about 150 years.

You seem to be a history buff on concrete...

How is it that Henry Flagler could build concrete piers in the ocean
100 years ago in the FL Keys and have the concrete still be in great
shape. Meanwhile everything built more than 20 years ago is falling
apart in the Keys.

Karl