On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 15:34:30 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


At least by 1000 BC, the ancients were making Pozzolan cement in much
the same way a lot of it is made today: fine-ground, reactive types of
volcanic ash, mixed with slaked lime.

Pozzolan has been used for thousands of years, while Portland cement
has been around for about 150 years.

You seem to be a history buff on concrete...

How is it that Henry Flagler could build concrete piers in the ocean
100 years ago in the FL Keys and have the concrete still be in great
shape. Meanwhile everything built more than 20 years ago is falling
apart in the Keys.

Karl

g I don't know the answers to that one, Karl. My interest in
concrete is mostly about two things: post-tensioned structures and
ferrocement. I've just picked up a few historical tidbits along the
way. I have a really great book on ferrorcement (among several
others) that took me most of a year of spare time to read.

Back in Flagler's day, we overbuilt all kinds of sructures, because we
didn't have the engineering to build them closer to the limits. I'm
just guessing, but it could be something like that.

--
Ed Huntress

Ecnerwal wrote:
In article ,
"Terry Coombs" wrote:

Don't even think you can hand-nail it
though ... I used my framing nailer .

You can, but you'll bend a lot of the specified nails unless you have
some superhuman ability, or predrill, perhaps. I did 1000+ square feet
hand-nailing with the specified ring-shank nails and some volunteer
helpers, and we learned to just give up and yank & try again when the
first bend took place, as there was no getting it right after that.
It's also glued down.

I neither own nor want to own or rent a nailer. Hammers suit me fine.

I bought the nailer for a fence job . That job paid for it , the rest is
just gravy . Built the living room to our new house with it , plan on using
it for the kitchen , bedroom , and decks all 'round . Gravy .
Speaking of houses , I just finished the stonework floor for our wood
burning stove . I sure hope the wall is easier on my poor old worn-out body
! Gotta let the floor cure for a week or so before I begin , probably spend
a part of that week doing electrical reconfiguration , we had the power
service moved to the permanent structure last week . Got a couple of trees
that are convenient to the splitting/storage area that I might take down if
the temps drop some . It's 99° here right now , down from a high of 100° at
3:05 PM . I didn't even try to cool my shop today , just left the door open
and a ceiling fan on to stir the hot air .
--
Snag
The house is a comfortable 76° though , well insulated and cooled by an
8,000 BTU window unit that's at least 20 yrs old .

Karl Townsend wrote:

At least by 1000 BC, the ancients were making Pozzolan cement in much
the same way a lot of it is made today: fine-ground, reactive types of
volcanic ash, mixed with slaked lime.

Pozzolan has been used for thousands of years, while Portland cement
has been around for about 150 years.

You seem to be a history buff on concrete...

How is it that Henry Flagler could build concrete piers in the ocean
100 years ago in the FL Keys and have the concrete still be in great
shape. Meanwhile everything built more than 20 years ago is falling
apart in the Keys.


They were built by the low bidder, and not inspected. Remember all
the substandard work uncovered by hurricane Andrew in Miami?


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Karl Townsend wrote:

At least by 1000 BC, the ancients were making Pozzolan cement in much
the same way a lot of it is made today: fine-ground, reactive types of
volcanic ash, mixed with slaked lime.

Pozzolan has been used for thousands of years, while Portland cement
has been around for about 150 years.

You seem to be a history buff on concrete...

How is it that Henry Flagler could build concrete piers in the ocean
100 years ago in the FL Keys and have the concrete still be in great
shape. Meanwhile everything built more than 20 years ago is falling
apart in the Keys.

Karl


He used sand and gravel brought in from Georgia and fresh water for the
mix. The railroads always built to last forever (except when they were
in a hurry )

John

On 8/24/2014 10:30 AM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 8/24/2014 10:43 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, August 23, 2014 10:36:26 PM UTC-4, Martin Eastburn wrote:
...
Pozzolan, being made with volcanic ash, has the unique ability to cure

in salt water. ...


He someone said in a: "textbook that sal****er will work, but the
total compressive strength will be 10%-15% lower"
--
http://www.contractortalk.com/f4/eff...ncrete-123800/



Curing IN salt water is different from mixing WITH salt water
Exactly.

Plenty of rainwater in the south Pacific but making piers running out
into the lagoon requires large dams and pumps .. what a job. Or use
ash and the chemical reaction is different from Portland. If the cement
were 25% less one would just build better strength versions or just put
up with some wear. Once you have an out-of-water pier, a hard top
could be added - with or without rails for cargo movement.

Some under water projects for a sub refueling design showed the real
magic.

Martin who lived in the south pacific for some time.

On 8/24/2014 3:46 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 15:34:30 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


At least by 1000 BC, the ancients were making Pozzolan cement in much
the same way a lot of it is made today: fine-ground, reactive types of
volcanic ash, mixed with slaked lime.

Pozzolan has been used for thousands of years, while Portland cement
has been around for about 150 years.

You seem to be a history buff on concrete...

How is it that Henry Flagler could build concrete piers in the ocean
100 years ago in the FL Keys and have the concrete still be in great
shape. Meanwhile everything built more than 20 years ago is falling
apart in the Keys.

Karl

g I don't know the answers to that one, Karl. My interest in
concrete is mostly about two things: post-tensioned structures and
ferrocement. I've just picked up a few historical tidbits along the
way. I have a really great book on ferrorcement (among several
others) that took me most of a year of spare time to read.

Back in Flagler's day, we overbuilt all kinds of sructures, because we
didn't have the engineering to build them closer to the limits. I'm
just guessing, but it could be something like that.

He might have researched the subject before he just made concrete.

My furnace isn't Portland - no water is stored. It is a different
process and is a chemical reaction that makes the bonds. You cook the
water out of it in a long slow ramp up. Water inside of cement can
explode.

Simply drop some molten metal on a concrete floor and you might have a
hole dished out. Blow cement at you.

His piers might have been high temp cement being very dense as well.
One never knows without a core and some tests :-)

Martin

On Sunday, August 24, 2014 7:53:19 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
Ecnerwal wrote:

In article ,

"Terry Coombs" wrote:

Don't even think you can hand-nail it

though ... I used my framing nailer .

You can, but you'll bend a lot of the specified nails unless you have

some superhuman ability, or predrill, perhaps. I did 1000+ square feet

hand-nailing with the specified ring-shank nails and some volunteer

helpers, and we learned to just give up and yank & try again when the

first bend took place, as there was no getting it right after that.

It's also glued down.

I neither own nor want to own or rent a nailer. Hammers suit me fine.

I bought the nailer for a fence job . That job paid for it , the rest is

just gravy . Built the living room to our new house with it , plan on using

it for the kitchen , bedroom , and decks all 'round . Gravy .

Speaking of houses , I just finished the stonework floor for our wood

burning stove . I sure hope the wall is easier on my poor old worn-out body

! Gotta let the floor cure for a week or so before I begin , probably spend

a part of that week doing electrical reconfiguration , we had the power

service moved to the permanent structure last week . Got a couple of trees

that are convenient to the splitting/storage area that I might take down if

the temps drop some . It's 99� here right now , down from a high of 100� at

3:05 PM . I didn't even try to cool my shop today , just left the door open

and a ceiling fan on to stir the hot air .

--


Snag
The house is a comfortable 76� though , well insulated and cooled by an

8,000 BTU window unit that's at least 20 yrs old .

And sooner or later, you should think about the modern solar powered air conditioner:

-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH61Ag0eA5g

Now. What would you do without the electrician, huh Terry?

On 8/24/2014 10:29 PM, John wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote:

At least by 1000 BC, the ancients were making Pozzolan cement in much
the same way a lot of it is made today: fine-ground, reactive types of
volcanic ash, mixed with slaked lime.

Pozzolan has been used for thousands of years, while Portland cement
has been around for about 150 years.

You seem to be a history buff on concrete...

How is it that Henry Flagler could build concrete piers in the ocean
100 years ago in the FL Keys and have the concrete still be in great
shape. Meanwhile everything built more than 20 years ago is falling
apart in the Keys.

Karl


He used sand and gravel brought in from Georgia and fresh water for the
mix. The railroads always built to last forever (except when they were
in a hurry )

John
Granted.

What was the sand made out of ?
What was the gravel made out of ?

Perhaps a chem action and not much if any Portland until later in the cycle.

Martin

Martin Eastburn fired this volley in
:


Perhaps a chem action and not much if any Portland until later in the
cycle.



He said "Georgia". He didn't mean the Soviet state of Georgia.

There's really not much in the way of pyrolytic or volcanic stone in
Georgia, USA.

He went to Georgia because except for a little limestone, Florida's only
mineral commodity is (well, was) phosphates. Our sand is too fine for
concrete work.

Lloyd

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Martin Eastburn fired this volley in
:


Perhaps a chem action and not much if any Portland until later in the
cycle.



He said "Georgia". He didn't mean the Soviet state of Georgia.

There's really not much in the way of pyrolytic or volcanic stone in
Georgia, USA.

He went to Georgia because except for a little limestone, Florida's only
mineral commodity is (well, was) phosphates. Our sand is too fine for
concrete work.

Lloyd


He actually went all over the world to get the materials for the
bridges. The below water cement came from Germany, the trap rock came
from NY state.

https://friendsofoldseven.org/bridge/

I was wrong about Georgia. it must have been Germany I was thinking of.

John