https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner


I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

On Apr 14, 6:05*pm, Ignoramus25056 ignoramus25...@NOSPAM.
25056.invalid wrote:
On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:



https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner

I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

That's no surprise. It's because you can't pay attention to detail.
Wieber fixed a "nasty crack" in the turret that was "bubblegumed
together"

On Apr 14, 6:12*pm, jon_banquer wrote:
On Apr 14, 6:05*pm, Ignoramus25056 ignoramus25...@NOSPAM.

25056.invalid wrote:
On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner

I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

That's no surprise. It's because you can't pay attention to detail.
Wieber fixed a "nasty crack" in the turret that was "bubblegumed
together"

Only thing that is not clear is who did the welding on the broken
turret casting and how it was done. No pictures were taken documenting
this.

Ignoramus25056 wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner


I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

He removed a tool changer/toolpost turret from a very large CNC lathe,
took it to a shop to repair a cracked casting properly and then
reassembled it. 9" spindle bore, probably threading oil well drill
string pipe fittings or something. Probably 100HP spindle. Big MF.

jon_banquer fired this volley in news:665d3f6e-
:

Only thing that is not clear is who did the welding on the broken
turret casting and how it was done. No pictures were taken documenting
this.

Jon,it was abundantly clear if you read the notes on the Picasa page:

"So they had me pull the turret and take it to one of the best machine
repair guys I know, Jim at Quality Machining, Chino California...to
reweld the assembly. "

Lloyd

On 2013-04-15, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus25056 wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner


I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

He removed a tool changer/toolpost turret from a very large CNC lathe,
took it to a shop to repair a cracked casting properly and then
reassembled it. 9" spindle bore, probably threading oil well drill
string pipe fittings or something. Probably 100HP spindle. Big MF.

OK, I got it, thanks. I usually think that if it cracked once, it will
crack again. But it was a fun project.

i

On Apr 14, 6:52*pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
jon_banquer fired this volley in news:665d3f6e-
:

Only thing that is not clear is who did the welding on the broken
turret casting and how it was done. No pictures were taken documenting
this.

Jon,it was abundantly clear if you read the notes on the Picasa page:

"So they had me pull the turret and take it to one of the best machine
repair guys I know, Jim at Quality Machining, Chino California...to
reweld the assembly. "

Lloyd

No, it's not abundantly clear. I did miss the "who" but not
documenting "how" it was welded removed a great deal of the interest
for me as the repair job as shown lacks meaningful substance / detail.
Perhaps I missed the "who" because I quickly became disgusted that the
"how" was excluded.

On Apr 14, 6:55*pm, Ignoramus25056 ignoramus25...@NOSPAM.
25056.invalid wrote:
On 2013-04-15, Pete C. wrote:











Ignoramus25056 wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner

I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

He removed a tool changer/toolpost turret from a very large CNC lathe,
took it to a shop to repair a cracked casting properly and then
reassembled it. 9" spindle bore, probably threading oil well drill
string pipe fittings or something. Probably 100HP spindle. Big MF.

OK, I got it, thanks. I usually think that if it cracked once, it will
crack again. But it was a fun project.

i

When welds are done right they are often stronger than the base
material. Trying to apply a rule to fixing all cracks that are welded
is the wrong approach.

Ignoramus25056 wrote:
On 2013-04-15, Pete C. wrote:
Ignoramus25056 wrote:
On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner

I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i
He removed a tool changer/toolpost turret from a very large CNC lathe,
took it to a shop to repair a cracked casting properly and then
reassembled it. 9" spindle bore, probably threading oil well drill
string pipe fittings or something. Probably 100HP spindle. Big MF.

OK, I got it, thanks. I usually think that if it cracked once, it will
crack again. But it was a fun project.

i

If the weld is done properly the repair will be as strong or stronger
than the original material. The trick is knowing what the material
actually is and which weld procedure to use.
In this case it sounds like it was cast iron, and that the repair was to
grind it out and weld it plus add pins across the weld to withstand the
higher stress.

Cast is fun stuff, especially in areas where it lives in lubricants or oils.

--
Steve W.

On Apr 14, 8:13*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Ignoramus25056 wrote:
On 2013-04-15, Pete C. wrote:
Ignoramus25056 wrote:
On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner

I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i
He removed a tool changer/toolpost turret from a very large CNC lathe,
took it to a shop to repair a cracked casting properly and then
reassembled it. 9" spindle bore, probably threading oil well drill
string pipe fittings or something. Probably 100HP spindle. Big MF.

OK, I got it, thanks. I usually think that if it cracked once, it will
crack again. But it was a fun project.

i

If the weld is done properly the repair will be as strong or stronger
than the original material. The trick is knowing what the material
actually is and which weld procedure to use.
In this case it sounds like it was cast iron, and that the repair was to
grind it out and weld it plus add pins across the weld to withstand the
higher stress.

Cast is fun stuff, especially in areas where it lives in lubricants or oils.

--
Steve W.

Right but we will never know because Wieber decided not to document
the full repair so it's incomplete and not very helpful.

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:05:57 -0500, Ignoramus25056
wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner


I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i


I pulled down the lathe, removed the turret, took it to another shop,
stripped it empty, then a guy put it up on one of his big horizontal
mills, drilled and tapped the side of the casting (base) and put in
stripper bolts, which drew the busted pieces together, then welded it
all up with bronze. Then he put it back on the horizontal mill,
remilled and put everything back to factory specs visa vis flatness
and alighnment.

I then reassembled everything, adjusted clearences by experience (no
manual available) and reinstalled it on the lathe. I then aligned the
turret to within .001 of alignment with lathe axis and then rewired
and made operational.

I had about 20 hrs in it. Jim had about 10 hrs in it. Plus taking it
on a 70 mile round trip on my trailer.

The original morons had put in (2) .5" dowel pins..but had only set
less than .375 in the far side of the crack..and had never pulled the
crack back together and when they welded it..they never got the body
of the casting hot..so they managed to simply put bronze on the small
side and it had NO bond with the body of the turret. When we ground
out the original braze..a big "chunk" of bronze popped out..the crack
never was bonded..it was just "puttied" and that chunk of bronze was
supposed to be bonded to the turret body. It wasnt. That chunk of
bronze was oily..and you can see in the photo..the crack was pretty
good sized.

In fact..its visible in the photo with the crack, to the right side
laying loose on the body of the turret.

Now we expect it to be as strong as the original cast iron as a unit.

If not stronger.

The original guys had put on a plate of steel..just to keep the dowel
pins from falling out. ****ed us both off when we pulled that plate
off and the dowels were not even bonded with the bronze...yet they had
been welded in. **** poor welding...zero skills with cast iron or
machinery. Unfortunately..it had been done 10 yrs ago..so we couldnt
go back after them. The machine came from another shop recently..my
clients bought their entire machine shop, and we moved it to their
building and we set it up for operation. They do plastic and steel
pipe threading and slotting etc etc for the oil and environmental
industry, along with chemicals etc etc

http://www.sinclairwellproducts.com/

Gunner

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:55:22 -0500, Ignoramus25056
wrote:

On 2013-04-15, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus25056 wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner


I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

He removed a tool changer/toolpost turret from a very large CNC lathe,
took it to a shop to repair a cracked casting properly and then
reassembled it. 9" spindle bore, probably threading oil well drill
string pipe fittings or something. Probably 100HP spindle. Big MF.

OK, I got it, thanks. I usually think that if it cracked once, it will
crack again. But it was a fun project.

i

If its fixed properly..and it was..it wont crack again. At least not
in that location.

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:52:05 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

jon_banquer fired this volley in news:665d3f6e-
:

Only thing that is not clear is who did the welding on the broken
turret casting and how it was done. No pictures were taken documenting
this.

Jon,it was abundantly clear if you read the notes on the Picasa page:

"So they had me pull the turret and take it to one of the best machine
repair guys I know, Jim at Quality Machining, Chino California...to
reweld the assembly. "

Lloyd

Maybe Jons keeper missed that part?

On Apr 14, 8:25*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:52:05 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
jon_banquer fired this volley in news:665d3f6e-
:

Only thing that is not clear is who did the welding on the broken
turret casting and how it was done. No pictures were taken documenting
this.

Jon,it was abundantly clear if you read the notes on the Picasa page:

"So they had me pull the turret and take it to one of the best machine
repair guys I know, Jim at Quality Machining, Chino California...to
reweld the assembly. "

Lloyd

Maybe Jons keeper missed that part?

Weak pussies like Mark Wieber have to use kill files. As a result of
having to use a kill file, Wieber misses a ton of significant and
factual information that results in him ending up dazed and
confused.

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 23:13:17 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ignoramus25056 wrote:
On 2013-04-15, Pete C. wrote:
Ignoramus25056 wrote:
On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner

I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i
He removed a tool changer/toolpost turret from a very large CNC lathe,
took it to a shop to repair a cracked casting properly and then
reassembled it. 9" spindle bore, probably threading oil well drill
string pipe fittings or something. Probably 100HP spindle. Big MF.

OK, I got it, thanks. I usually think that if it cracked once, it will
crack again. But it was a fun project.

i

If the weld is done properly the repair will be as strong or stronger
than the original material. The trick is knowing what the material
actually is and which weld procedure to use.
In this case it sounds like it was cast iron, and that the repair was to
grind it out and weld it plus add pins across the weld to withstand the
higher stress.

Cast is fun stuff, especially in areas where it lives in lubricants or oils.


We are still not sure if it was cast iron..or cast steel.

Gunner

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:23:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:05:57 -0500, Ignoramus25056
wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner


I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i


I pulled down the lathe, removed the turret, took it to another shop,
stripped it empty, then a guy put it up on one of his big horizontal
mills, drilled and tapped the side of the casting (base) and put in
stripper bolts, which drew the busted pieces together,

then ground all the crap out of it and got it ready to weld

then welded it
all up with bronze. Then he put it back on the horizontal mill,
remilled and put everything back to factory specs visa vis flatness
and alighnment.

I then reassembled everything, adjusted clearences by experience (no
manual available) and reinstalled it on the lathe. I then aligned the
turret to within .001 of alignment with lathe axis and then rewired
and made operational.

I had about 20 hrs in it. Jim had about 10 hrs in it. Plus taking it
on a 70 mile round trip on my trailer.

The original morons had put in (2) .5" dowel pins..but had only set
less than .375 in the far side of the crack..and had never pulled the
crack back together and when they welded it..they never got the body
of the casting hot..so they managed to simply put bronze on the small
side and it had NO bond with the body of the turret. When we ground
out the original braze..a big "chunk" of bronze popped out..the crack
never was bonded..it was just "puttied" and that chunk of bronze was
supposed to be bonded to the turret body. It wasnt. That chunk of
bronze was oily..and you can see in the photo..the crack was pretty
good sized.

In fact..its visible in the photo with the crack, to the right side
laying loose on the body of the turret.

Now we expect it to be as strong as the original cast iron as a unit.

If not stronger.

The original guys had put on a plate of steel..just to keep the dowel
pins from falling out. ****ed us both off when we pulled that plate
off and the dowels were not even bonded with the bronze...yet they had
been welded in. **** poor welding...zero skills with cast iron or
machinery. Unfortunately..it had been done 10 yrs ago..so we couldnt
go back after them. The machine came from another shop recently..my
clients bought their entire machine shop, and we moved it to their
building and we set it up for operation. They do plastic and steel
pipe threading and slotting etc etc for the oil and environmental
industry, along with chemicals etc etc

http://www.sinclairwellproducts.com/

Gunner

On Apr 14, 8:23*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:05:57 -0500, Ignoramus25056

wrote:
On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner

I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

I pulled down the lathe, removed the turret, took it to another shop,
stripped it empty, then a guy put it up on one of his big horizontal
mills, drilled and tapped the side of the casting (base) and put in
stripper bolts, which *drew the busted pieces together, then welded it
all up with bronze. Then he put it back on the horizontal mill,
remilled and put everything back to factory specs visa vis flatness
and alighnment.

I then reassembled everything, adjusted clearences by experience (no
manual available) and reinstalled it on the lathe. I then aligned the
turret to within .001 of alignment with lathe axis and then rewired
and made operational.

I had about 20 *hrs in it. Jim *had about 10 hrs in it. Plus taking it
on a 70 mile round trip on my trailer.

The original morons had put in (2) .5" dowel pins..but had only set
less than .375 in the far side of the crack..and had never pulled the
crack back together and when they welded it..they never got the body
of the casting hot..so they managed to simply put bronze on the small
side and it had NO bond with the body of the turret. When we ground
out the original braze..a big "chunk" of bronze popped out..the crack
never was bonded..it was just "puttied" and that chunk of bronze was
supposed to be bonded to the turret body. It wasnt. That chunk of
bronze was oily..and you can see in the photo..the crack was pretty
good sized.

In fact..its visible in the photo with the crack, to the right side
laying loose on the body of the turret.

Now we expect it to be as strong as the original cast iron as a unit.

If not stronger.

The original guys had put on a plate of steel..just to keep the dowel
pins from falling out. ****ed us both off when we pulled that plate
off and the dowels were not even bonded with the bronze...yet they had
been welded in. ***** poor welding...zero skills with cast iron or
machinery. Unfortunately..it had been done 10 yrs ago..so we couldnt
go back after them. *The machine came from another shop recently..my
clients bought their entire machine shop, and we moved it to their
building and we set it up for operation. *They do plastic and steel
pipe threading and slotting etc etc for the oil and environmental
industry, along with chemicals etc etc

http://www.sinclairwellproducts.com/

Gunner

No visual documentation of what Wieber wrote above makes it a very
poor presentation compared to what it could have been.

On Apr 14, 8:37*pm, jon_banquer wrote:
On Apr 14, 8:25*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:









On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:52:05 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
jon_banquer fired this volley in news:665d3f6e-
:

Only thing that is not clear is who did the welding on the broken
turret casting and how it was done. No pictures were taken documenting
this.

Jon,it was abundantly clear if you read the notes on the Picasa page:

"So they had me pull the turret and take it to one of the best machine
repair guys I know, Jim at Quality Machining, Chino California...to
reweld the assembly. "

Lloyd

Maybe Jons keeper missed that part?

Weak pussies like Mark Wieber have to use kill files. As a result of
having to use a kill file, Wieber misses a ton of significant and
factual information that results in him ending up dazed and
confused.

Of course when you consume brominated vegetable oil 24/7-365 this is
to be expected.

On 2013-04-15, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:23:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:05:57 -0500, Ignoramus25056
wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner


I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i


I pulled down the lathe, removed the turret, took it to another shop,
stripped it empty, then a guy put it up on one of his big horizontal
mills, drilled and tapped the side of the casting (base) and put in
stripper bolts, which drew the busted pieces together,

then ground all the crap out of it and got it ready to weld

then welded it
all up with bronze. Then he put it back on the horizontal mill,
remilled and put everything back to factory specs visa vis flatness
and alighnment.

I then reassembled everything, adjusted clearences by experience (no
manual available) and reinstalled it on the lathe. I then aligned the
turret to within .001 of alignment with lathe axis and then rewired
and made operational.

I had about 20 hrs in it. Jim had about 10 hrs in it. Plus taking it
on a 70 mile round trip on my trailer.

The original morons had put in (2) .5" dowel pins..but had only set
less than .375 in the far side of the crack..and had never pulled the
crack back together and when they welded it..they never got the body
of the casting hot..so they managed to simply put bronze on the small
side and it had NO bond with the body of the turret. When we ground
out the original braze..a big "chunk" of bronze popped out..the crack
never was bonded..it was just "puttied" and that chunk of bronze was
supposed to be bonded to the turret body. It wasnt. That chunk of
bronze was oily..and you can see in the photo..the crack was pretty
good sized.

In fact..its visible in the photo with the crack, to the right side
laying loose on the body of the turret.

Now we expect it to be as strong as the original cast iron as a unit.

If not stronger.

The original guys had put on a plate of steel..just to keep the dowel
pins from falling out. ****ed us both off when we pulled that plate
off and the dowels were not even bonded with the bronze...yet they had
been welded in. **** poor welding...zero skills with cast iron or
machinery. Unfortunately..it had been done 10 yrs ago..so we couldnt
go back after them. The machine came from another shop recently..my
clients bought their entire machine shop, and we moved it to their
building and we set it up for operation. They do plastic and steel
pipe threading and slotting etc etc for the oil and environmental
industry, along with chemicals etc etc

http://www.sinclairwellproducts.com/

Gunner





OK, thanks, now I got it

i

On Apr 14, 9:34*pm, Ignoramus25056 ignoramus25...@NOSPAM.
25056.invalid wrote:
On 2013-04-15, Gunner Asch wrote:









On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:23:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:05:57 -0500, Ignoramus25056
wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner

I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

I pulled down the lathe, removed the turret, took it to another shop,
stripped it empty, then a guy put it up on one of his big horizontal
mills, drilled and tapped the side of the casting (base) and put in
stripper bolts, which *drew the busted pieces together,

then ground all the crap out of it and got it ready to weld

then welded it
all up with bronze. Then he put it back on the horizontal mill,
remilled and put everything back to factory specs visa vis flatness
and alighnment.

I then reassembled everything, adjusted clearences by experience (no
manual available) and reinstalled it on the lathe. I then aligned the
turret to within .001 of alignment with lathe axis and then rewired
and made operational.

I had about 20 *hrs in it. Jim *had about 10 hrs in it. Plus taking it
on a 70 mile round trip on my trailer.

The original morons had put in (2) .5" dowel pins..but had only set
less than .375 in the far side of the crack..and had never pulled the
crack back together and when they welded it..they never got the body
of the casting hot..so they managed to simply put bronze on the small
side and it had NO bond with the body of the turret. When we ground
out the original braze..a big "chunk" of bronze popped out..the crack
never was bonded..it was just "puttied" and that chunk of bronze was
supposed to be bonded to the turret body. It wasnt. That chunk of
bronze was oily..and you can see in the photo..the crack was pretty
good sized.

In fact..its visible in the photo with the crack, to the right side
laying loose on the body of the turret.

Now we expect it to be as strong as the original cast iron as a unit.

If not stronger.

The original guys had put on a plate of steel..just to keep the dowel
pins from falling out. ****ed us both off when we pulled that plate
off and the dowels were not even bonded with the bronze...yet they had
been welded in. ***** poor welding...zero skills with cast iron or
machinery. Unfortunately..it had been done 10 yrs ago..so we couldnt
go back after them. *The machine came from another shop recently..my
clients bought their entire machine shop, and we moved it to their
building and we set it up for operation. *They do plastic and steel
pipe threading and slotting etc etc for the oil and environmental
industry, along with chemicals etc etc

http://www.sinclairwellproducts.com/

Gunner

OK, thanks, now I got it

i

You should have "got it" without having to be spoon fed..... AGAIN!

On 4/14/2013 11:24 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:55:22 -0500, Ignoramus25056
wrote:

On 2013-04-15, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus25056 wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner


I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

He removed a tool changer/toolpost turret from a very large CNC lathe,
took it to a shop to repair a cracked casting properly and then
reassembled it. 9" spindle bore, probably threading oil well drill
string pipe fittings or something. Probably 100HP spindle. Big MF.

OK, I got it, thanks. I usually think that if it cracked once, it will
crack again. But it was a fun project.

i

If its fixed properly..and it was..it wont crack again. At least not
in that location.



It is an ART to repair a casting that won't crack again! A big part of
that is in the pre-heat and cool-down phases of the weld. I've had
mostly good luck but a bit of bad luck. A lot depends on the metal and
the phase of Venus.

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 02:10:06 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 4/14/2013 11:24 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:55:22 -0500, Ignoramus25056
wrote:

On 2013-04-15, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus25056 wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner


I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

He removed a tool changer/toolpost turret from a very large CNC lathe,
took it to a shop to repair a cracked casting properly and then
reassembled it. 9" spindle bore, probably threading oil well drill
string pipe fittings or something. Probably 100HP spindle. Big MF.

OK, I got it, thanks. I usually think that if it cracked once, it will
crack again. But it was a fun project.

i

If its fixed properly..and it was..it wont crack again. At least not
in that location.



It is an ART to repair a casting that won't crack again! A big part of
that is in the pre-heat and cool-down phases of the weld. I've had
mostly good luck but a bit of bad luck. A lot depends on the metal and
the phase of Venus.

Indeed it is an art. When the welding equipment companies, or other
researchers, do a metallographic analysis of cast iron welds, the
results will leave you wondering how it ever works at all. The weld
and heat-affected zone typically is like a layer cake of weirdness.

Anyone who can get good results *consistently* is worth his pay.

BTW, the guy who allegedly was the highest-paid c.i. welder in the
world, an Italian who did nothing else, was hired and shipped in many
years ago by Bill Harrah to weld a crack in the block of his priceless
Bugatti Royale. He did it with O/A and c.i. rod. It worked, even
though it doubtless had oil in the (then) 60-year-old cast iron.

I don't know how he did the pre-heat or stress relief.

--
Ed Huntress

On 4/14/2013 9:42 PM, Jonathan Banquer wrote:
On Apr 14, 9:34 pm, Ignoramus25056 ignoramus25...@NOSPAM.
25056.invalid wrote:
On 2013-04-15, Gunner Asch wrote:









On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:23:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:05:57 -0500, Ignoramus25056
wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner

I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

I pulled down the lathe, removed the turret, took it to another shop,
stripped it empty, then a guy put it up on one of his big horizontal
mills, drilled and tapped the side of the casting (base) and put in
stripper bolts, which drew the busted pieces together,

then ground all the crap out of it and got it ready to weld

then welded it
all up with bronze. Then he put it back on the horizontal mill,
remilled and put everything back to factory specs visa vis flatness
and alighnment.

I then reassembled everything, adjusted clearences by experience (no
manual available) and reinstalled it on the lathe. I then aligned the
turret to within .001 of alignment with lathe axis and then rewired
and made operational.

I had about 20 hrs in it. Jim had about 10 hrs in it. Plus taking it
on a 70 mile round trip on my trailer.

The original morons had put in (2) .5" dowel pins..but had only set
less than .375 in the far side of the crack..and had never pulled the
crack back together and when they welded it..they never got the body
of the casting hot..so they managed to simply put bronze on the small
side and it had NO bond with the body of the turret. When we ground
out the original braze..a big "chunk" of bronze popped out..the crack
never was bonded..it was just "puttied" and that chunk of bronze was
supposed to be bonded to the turret body. It wasnt. That chunk of
bronze was oily..and you can see in the photo..the crack was pretty
good sized.

In fact..its visible in the photo with the crack, to the right side
laying loose on the body of the turret.

Now we expect it to be as strong as the original cast iron as a unit.

If not stronger.

The original guys had put on a plate of steel..just to keep the dowel
pins from falling out. ****ed us both off when we pulled that plate
off and the dowels were not even bonded with the bronze...yet they had
been welded in. **** poor welding...zero skills with cast iron or
machinery. Unfortunately..it had been done 10 yrs ago..so we couldnt
go back after them. The machine came from another shop recently..my
clients bought their entire machine shop, and we moved it to their
building and we set it up for operation. They do plastic and steel
pipe threading and slotting etc etc for the oil and environmental
industry, along with chemicals etc etc

http://www.sinclairwellproducts.com/

Gunner

OK, thanks, now I got it

i

You should have "got it" without having to be spoon fed..... AGAIN!

Why don't you shut your ****ing yap, banqueer? You *still* don't get it.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
jon_banquer fired this volley in news:665d3f6e-
:

Only thing that is not clear is who did the welding on the broken
turret casting and how it was done. No pictures were taken documenting
this.

Jon,it was abundantly clear if you read the notes on the Picasa page:

"So they had me pull the turret and take it to one of the best machine
repair guys I know, Jim at Quality Machining, Chino California...to
reweld the assembly. "



Amazing--he put it back together without getting his tongue stuck to the
freezer door.

Ed Huntress wrote:

It is an ART to repair a casting that won't crack again! A big part of
that is in the pre-heat and cool-down phases of the weld. I've had
mostly good luck but a bit of bad luck. A lot depends on the metal and
the phase of Venus.

Indeed it is an art. When the welding equipment companies, or other
researchers, do a metallographic analysis of cast iron welds, the
results will leave you wondering how it ever works at all. The weld
and heat-affected zone typically is like a layer cake of weirdness.

Anyone who can get good results *consistently* is worth his pay.

BTW, the guy who allegedly was the highest-paid c.i. welder in the
world, an Italian who did nothing else, was hired and shipped in many
years ago by Bill Harrah to weld a crack in the block of his priceless
Bugatti Royale. He did it with O/A and c.i. rod. It worked, even
though it doubtless had oil in the (then) 60-year-old cast iron.

I don't know how he did the pre-heat or stress relief.


Yeah the haz in a cast weld gets interesting. Areas of carbon migration,
grain structure changes and lot's more.

Gas works real good for thin wall iron. You have to watch your flame
real close and only fill enough to ensure a good bond. Then watch it
real close for contraction while it cools. Add enough filler and you get
a good bond and repair, go under and it will crack again due to the
tension stress at the site. If you go over it will probably crack in a
different area due to the stress the extra material adds as it act's
like a wedge.



--
Steve W.

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:32:06 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

It is an ART to repair a casting that won't crack again! A big part of
that is in the pre-heat and cool-down phases of the weld. I've had
mostly good luck but a bit of bad luck. A lot depends on the metal and
the phase of Venus.

Indeed it is an art. When the welding equipment companies, or other
researchers, do a metallographic analysis of cast iron welds, the
results will leave you wondering how it ever works at all. The weld
and heat-affected zone typically is like a layer cake of weirdness.

Anyone who can get good results *consistently* is worth his pay.

BTW, the guy who allegedly was the highest-paid c.i. welder in the
world, an Italian who did nothing else, was hired and shipped in many
years ago by Bill Harrah to weld a crack in the block of his priceless
Bugatti Royale. He did it with O/A and c.i. rod. It worked, even
though it doubtless had oil in the (then) 60-year-old cast iron.

I don't know how he did the pre-heat or stress relief.


Yeah the haz in a cast weld gets interesting. Areas of carbon migration,
grain structure changes and lot's more.

Gas works real good for thin wall iron. You have to watch your flame
real close and only fill enough to ensure a good bond. Then watch it
real close for contraction while it cools. Add enough filler and you get
a good bond and repair, go under and it will crack again due to the
tension stress at the site. If you go over it will probably crack in a
different area due to the stress the extra material adds as it act's
like a wedge.

That sounds like things I've read, but I've never attempted it. I have
enough to keep me busy with mild steel. g

It must require a combination of experience, knowledge, and a
highly-developed feel for the materials and the work. And I'll bet
that several senses are working at the same time -- touch, vision,
hearing, and even smell.

As they say, it's quite an art.

--
Ed Huntress

Gunner Asch writes:


We are still not sure if it was cast iron..or cast steel.

Thanks for an interesting montage & backstory.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:39:15 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:32:06 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

It is an ART to repair a casting that won't crack again! A big part of
that is in the pre-heat and cool-down phases of the weld. I've had
mostly good luck but a bit of bad luck. A lot depends on the metal and
the phase of Venus.

Indeed it is an art. When the welding equipment companies, or other
researchers, do a metallographic analysis of cast iron welds, the
results will leave you wondering how it ever works at all. The weld
and heat-affected zone typically is like a layer cake of weirdness.

Anyone who can get good results *consistently* is worth his pay.

BTW, the guy who allegedly was the highest-paid c.i. welder in the
world, an Italian who did nothing else, was hired and shipped in many
years ago by Bill Harrah to weld a crack in the block of his priceless
Bugatti Royale. He did it with O/A and c.i. rod. It worked, even
though it doubtless had oil in the (then) 60-year-old cast iron.

I don't know how he did the pre-heat or stress relief.


Yeah the haz in a cast weld gets interesting. Areas of carbon migration,
grain structure changes and lot's more.

Gas works real good for thin wall iron. You have to watch your flame
real close and only fill enough to ensure a good bond. Then watch it
real close for contraction while it cools. Add enough filler and you get
a good bond and repair, go under and it will crack again due to the
tension stress at the site. If you go over it will probably crack in a
different area due to the stress the extra material adds as it act's
like a wedge.

That sounds like things I've read, but I've never attempted it. I have
enough to keep me busy with mild steel. g

It must require a combination of experience, knowledge, and a
highly-developed feel for the materials and the work. And I'll bet
that several senses are working at the same time -- touch, vision,
hearing, and even smell.

As they say, it's quite an art.

I'm no artist or expert, but I've had good luck on some repairs on
older cast iron by using a million stitches with a MIG welder. Tedious
but effective.

On Apr 15, 7:09*am, Walter Forward öv wrote:
On 4/14/2013 9:42 PM, Jonathan Banquer wrote:









On Apr 14, 9:34 pm, Ignoramus25056 ignoramus25...@NOSPAM.
25056.invalid wrote:
On 2013-04-15, Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:23:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:05:57 -0500, Ignoramus25056
wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner

I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

I pulled down the lathe, removed the turret, took it to another shop,
stripped it empty, then a guy put it up on one of his big horizontal
mills, drilled and tapped the side of the casting (base) and put in
stripper bolts, which *drew the busted pieces together,

then ground all the crap out of it and got it ready to weld

then welded it
all up with bronze. Then he put it back on the horizontal mill,
remilled and put everything back to factory specs visa vis flatness
and alighnment.

I then reassembled everything, adjusted clearences by experience (no
manual available) and reinstalled it on the lathe. I then aligned the
turret to within .001 of alignment with lathe axis and then rewired
and made operational.

I had about 20 *hrs in it. Jim *had about 10 hrs in it. Plus taking it
on a 70 mile round trip on my trailer.

The original morons had put in (2) .5" dowel pins..but had only set
less than .375 in the far side of the crack..and had never pulled the
crack back together and when they welded it..they never got the body
of the casting hot..so they managed to simply put bronze on the small
side and it had NO bond with the body of the turret. When we ground
out the original braze..a big "chunk" of bronze popped out..the crack
never was bonded..it was just "puttied" and that chunk of bronze was
supposed to be bonded to the turret body. It wasnt. That chunk of
bronze was oily..and you can see in the photo..the crack was pretty
good sized.

In fact..its visible in the photo with the crack, to the right side
laying loose on the body of the turret.

Now we expect it to be as strong as the original cast iron as a unit..

If not stronger.

The original guys had put on a plate of steel..just to keep the dowel
pins from falling out. ****ed us both off when we pulled that plate
off and the dowels were not even bonded with the bronze...yet they had
been welded in. ***** poor welding...zero skills with cast iron or
machinery. Unfortunately..it had been done 10 yrs ago..so we couldnt
go back after them. *The machine came from another shop recently..my
clients bought their entire machine shop, and we moved it to their
building and we set it up for operation. *They do plastic and steel
pipe threading and slotting etc etc for the oil and environmental
industry, along with chemicals etc etc

http://www.sinclairwellproducts.com/

Gunner

OK, thanks, now I got it

i

You should have "got it" without having to be spoon fed..... AGAIN!

Why don't you shut your ****ing yap, banqueer? *You *still* don't get it.

On Apr 15, 7:55*am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in messagenews:XnsA1A2DE74A4C48lloydspmindspringcom@2 16.168.3.70...

jon_banquer fired this volley in news:665d3f6e-
:

Only thing that is not clear is who did the welding on the broken
turret casting and how it was done. No pictures were taken documenting
this.

Jon,it was abundantly clear if you read the notes on the Picasa page:

"So they had me pull the turret and take it to one of the best machine
repair guys I know, Jim at Quality Machining, Chino California...to
reweld the assembly. "

Amazing--he put it back together without getting his tongue stuck to the
freezer door.

The most interesting and challenging part of the repair Wieber didn't
do. Wieber did the grunt work.

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:32:06 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

It is an ART to repair a casting that won't crack again! A big part of
that is in the pre-heat and cool-down phases of the weld. I've had
mostly good luck but a bit of bad luck. A lot depends on the metal and
the phase of Venus.
Indeed it is an art. When the welding equipment companies, or other
researchers, do a metallographic analysis of cast iron welds, the
results will leave you wondering how it ever works at all. The weld
and heat-affected zone typically is like a layer cake of weirdness.

Anyone who can get good results *consistently* is worth his pay.

BTW, the guy who allegedly was the highest-paid c.i. welder in the
world, an Italian who did nothing else, was hired and shipped in many
years ago by Bill Harrah to weld a crack in the block of his priceless
Bugatti Royale. He did it with O/A and c.i. rod. It worked, even
though it doubtless had oil in the (then) 60-year-old cast iron.

I don't know how he did the pre-heat or stress relief.

Yeah the haz in a cast weld gets interesting. Areas of carbon migration,
grain structure changes and lot's more.

Gas works real good for thin wall iron. You have to watch your flame
real close and only fill enough to ensure a good bond. Then watch it
real close for contraction while it cools. Add enough filler and you get
a good bond and repair, go under and it will crack again due to the
tension stress at the site. If you go over it will probably crack in a
different area due to the stress the extra material adds as it act's
like a wedge.

That sounds like things I've read, but I've never attempted it. I have
enough to keep me busy with mild steel. g

It must require a combination of experience, knowledge, and a
highly-developed feel for the materials and the work. And I'll bet
that several senses are working at the same time -- touch, vision,
hearing, and even smell.

As they say, it's quite an art.


Takes a bit of sorcery as well. I do quite a bit for the local farmers
and construction outfits. Tell them up front that MY repair will hold
BUT no guarantee that there won't be a failure doe to unknowns in the
castings. Nothing like a slag inclusion or localized carbon content
changes to ruin the party. Older castings tend to be easier to deal with
due to less "unknown scrap" in the cast pours of the day but you still
need to pay close attention.

Ideally with something like a used block or head where it has been in
oil I like to toss it in a vat for a couple days to leach out as much
oil as possible. That way you don't burn more carbon into the iron when
you heat it up. Then you preheat above operating temps and hold it there
while you weld. That is the fun part....


--
Steve W.

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:04:02 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:32:06 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

It is an ART to repair a casting that won't crack again! A big part of
that is in the pre-heat and cool-down phases of the weld. I've had
mostly good luck but a bit of bad luck. A lot depends on the metal and
the phase of Venus.
Indeed it is an art. When the welding equipment companies, or other
researchers, do a metallographic analysis of cast iron welds, the
results will leave you wondering how it ever works at all. The weld
and heat-affected zone typically is like a layer cake of weirdness.

Anyone who can get good results *consistently* is worth his pay.

BTW, the guy who allegedly was the highest-paid c.i. welder in the
world, an Italian who did nothing else, was hired and shipped in many
years ago by Bill Harrah to weld a crack in the block of his priceless
Bugatti Royale. He did it with O/A and c.i. rod. It worked, even
though it doubtless had oil in the (then) 60-year-old cast iron.

I don't know how he did the pre-heat or stress relief.

Yeah the haz in a cast weld gets interesting. Areas of carbon migration,
grain structure changes and lot's more.

Gas works real good for thin wall iron. You have to watch your flame
real close and only fill enough to ensure a good bond. Then watch it
real close for contraction while it cools. Add enough filler and you get
a good bond and repair, go under and it will crack again due to the
tension stress at the site. If you go over it will probably crack in a
different area due to the stress the extra material adds as it act's
like a wedge.
That sounds like things I've read, but I've never attempted it. I have
enough to keep me busy with mild steel. g

It must require a combination of experience, knowledge, and a
highly-developed feel for the materials and the work. And I'll bet
that several senses are working at the same time -- touch, vision,
hearing, and even smell.

As they say, it's quite an art.

Takes a bit of sorcery as well. I do quite a bit for the local farmers
and construction outfits. Tell them up front that MY repair will hold
BUT no guarantee that there won't be a failure doe to unknowns in the
castings. Nothing like a slag inclusion or localized carbon content
changes to ruin the party. Older castings tend to be easier to deal with
due to less "unknown scrap" in the cast pours of the day but you still
need to pay close attention.

Ideally with something like a used block or head where it has been in
oil I like to toss it in a vat for a couple days to leach out as much
oil as possible. That way you don't burn more carbon into the iron when
you heat it up. Then you preheat above operating temps and hold it there
while you weld. That is the fun part....

Have you tried methods other than gas welding? Like, nickel rods with
a stick welder, or anything else?

The subject interests me a lot, although I think I'll probably remain
an observer. I don't play with engines like I used to.


Yep. Gas, stick, MIG. High nickel rods, cast rods, brass, even used mild
steel rod on one. All depends on the size of the casting, location of
the damage and the actual stress on the area.

Something like a freeze crack in the side of a block where the only
stress is from cooling water and no real stress then a simple clean up
and braze works. Just be sure you stop drill the cracks and clean it
well then overlay the repair well past the damage to catch that hairline
fracture you don't see with the dye..

Cylinder heads or block webs are the fun ones. Large castings are
generally not real bad with a stick machine and the correct rod IF you
can get them above operating temps so the casting and weld can
expand/contract equally during normal use.

I tried TIG a few times but due to the concentrated heat it doesn't work
well for castings. The localized HAZ is so small that it is hard to
equalize the stresses even with pre-heating to equal temps.

--
Steve W.

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:32:36 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:04:02 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:32:06 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

It is an ART to repair a casting that won't crack again! A big part of
that is in the pre-heat and cool-down phases of the weld. I've had
mostly good luck but a bit of bad luck. A lot depends on the metal and
the phase of Venus.
Indeed it is an art. When the welding equipment companies, or other
researchers, do a metallographic analysis of cast iron welds, the
results will leave you wondering how it ever works at all. The weld
and heat-affected zone typically is like a layer cake of weirdness.

Anyone who can get good results *consistently* is worth his pay.

BTW, the guy who allegedly was the highest-paid c.i. welder in the
world, an Italian who did nothing else, was hired and shipped in many
years ago by Bill Harrah to weld a crack in the block of his priceless
Bugatti Royale. He did it with O/A and c.i. rod. It worked, even
though it doubtless had oil in the (then) 60-year-old cast iron.

I don't know how he did the pre-heat or stress relief.

Yeah the haz in a cast weld gets interesting. Areas of carbon migration,
grain structure changes and lot's more.

Gas works real good for thin wall iron. You have to watch your flame
real close and only fill enough to ensure a good bond. Then watch it
real close for contraction while it cools. Add enough filler and you get
a good bond and repair, go under and it will crack again due to the
tension stress at the site. If you go over it will probably crack in a
different area due to the stress the extra material adds as it act's
like a wedge.
That sounds like things I've read, but I've never attempted it. I have
enough to keep me busy with mild steel. g

It must require a combination of experience, knowledge, and a
highly-developed feel for the materials and the work. And I'll bet
that several senses are working at the same time -- touch, vision,
hearing, and even smell.

As they say, it's quite an art.

Takes a bit of sorcery as well. I do quite a bit for the local farmers
and construction outfits. Tell them up front that MY repair will hold
BUT no guarantee that there won't be a failure doe to unknowns in the
castings. Nothing like a slag inclusion or localized carbon content
changes to ruin the party. Older castings tend to be easier to deal with
due to less "unknown scrap" in the cast pours of the day but you still
need to pay close attention.

Ideally with something like a used block or head where it has been in
oil I like to toss it in a vat for a couple days to leach out as much
oil as possible. That way you don't burn more carbon into the iron when
you heat it up. Then you preheat above operating temps and hold it there
while you weld. That is the fun part....

Have you tried methods other than gas welding? Like, nickel rods with
a stick welder, or anything else?

The subject interests me a lot, although I think I'll probably remain
an observer. I don't play with engines like I used to.


Yep. Gas, stick, MIG. High nickel rods, cast rods, brass, even used mild
steel rod on one. All depends on the size of the casting, location of
the damage and the actual stress on the area.

Something like a freeze crack in the side of a block where the only
stress is from cooling water and no real stress then a simple clean up
and braze works. Just be sure you stop drill the cracks and clean it
well then overlay the repair well past the damage to catch that hairline
fracture you don't see with the dye..

Cylinder heads or block webs are the fun ones. Large castings are
generally not real bad with a stick machine and the correct rod IF you
can get them above operating temps so the casting and weld can
expand/contract equally during normal use.

I tried TIG a few times but due to the concentrated heat it doesn't work
well for castings. The localized HAZ is so small that it is hard to
equalize the stresses even with pre-heating to equal temps.

Well, you have experience with the whole gamut. Did you just learn it
all on the job, or did you go for some training? It seems like
learning to weld c.i. must involve some testing to destruction, or
maybe just seeing what holds together?

--
Ed Huntress

On Apr 15, 9:19*am, jon_banquer wrote:
On Apr 15, 7:09*am, Walter Forward öv wrote:









On 4/14/2013 9:42 PM, Jonathan Banquer wrote:

On Apr 14, 9:34 pm, Ignoramus25056 ignoramus25...@NOSPAM.
25056.invalid wrote:
On 2013-04-15, Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:23:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:05:57 -0500, Ignoramus25056
wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner

I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

I pulled down the lathe, removed the turret, took it to another shop,
stripped it empty, then a guy put it up on one of his big horizontal
mills, drilled and tapped the side of the casting (base) and put in
stripper bolts, which *drew the busted pieces together,

then ground all the crap out of it and got it ready to weld

then welded it
all up with bronze. Then he put it back on the horizontal mill,
remilled and put everything back to factory specs visa vis flatness
and alighnment.

I then reassembled everything, adjusted clearences by experience (no
manual available) and reinstalled it on the lathe. I then aligned the
turret to within .001 of alignment with lathe axis and then rewired
and made operational.

I had about 20 *hrs in it. Jim *had about 10 hrs in it. Plus taking it
on a 70 mile round trip on my trailer.

The original morons had put in (2) .5" dowel pins..but had only set
less than .375 in the far side of the crack..and had never pulled the
crack back together and when they welded it..they never got the body
of the casting hot..so they managed to simply put bronze on the small
side and it had NO bond with the body of the turret. When we ground
out the original braze..a big "chunk" of bronze popped out..the crack
never was bonded..it was just "puttied" and that chunk of bronze was
supposed to be bonded to the turret body. It wasnt. That chunk of
bronze was oily..and you can see in the photo..the crack was pretty
good sized.

In fact..its visible in the photo with the crack, to the right side
laying loose on the body of the turret.

Now we expect it to be as strong as the original cast iron as a unit.

If not stronger.

The original guys had put on a plate of steel..just to keep the dowel
pins from falling out. ****ed us both off when we pulled that plate
off and the dowels were not even bonded with the bronze...yet they had
been welded in. ***** poor welding...zero skills with cast iron or
machinery. Unfortunately..it had been done 10 yrs ago..so we couldnt
go back after them. *The machine came from another shop recently...my
clients bought their entire machine shop, and we moved it to their
building and we set it up for operation. *They do plastic and steel
pipe threading and slotting etc etc for the oil and environmental
industry, along with chemicals etc etc

http://www.sinclairwellproducts.com/

Gunner

OK, thanks, now I got it

i

You should have "got it" without having to be spoon fed..... AGAIN!

Why don't you shut your ****ing yap, banqueer? *You *still* don't get it.

You're an worthless, anonymous posting sock puppet who attacks others.
Suggest you **** off and die you pussy.

"Walter Forward" is yet another worthless sock puppet for the Pimple.

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 16:03:42 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
wrote:

Gunner Asch writes:


We are still not sure if it was cast iron..or cast steel.

Thanks for an interesting montage & backstory.

Im not just a pretty face.

VBG

Thought some of you might find that interesting.

Glad you enjoyed it.

I actually enjoy repairing machines, unfortunately with the economy
being what it is....shrug...not so much of it anymore. I could never
work as a production guy..be bored out of my skull in short order.

That gentleman Jim I mentioned...does most of his work as "one offs"
and is one of the finest, sharpest guys Ive ever met. Every time I go
into his shop..I learn Stuff that Id never learn anywhere else. Not so
much the grand plan..but how to do the detail stuff that actually
works.

I was in there one day when he was making 20' gears. In 5 segments.

For a rock crusher of some sort IRRC.

Fascinating work

Gunner

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:32:36 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:04:02 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:32:06 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

It is an ART to repair a casting that won't crack again! A big part of
that is in the pre-heat and cool-down phases of the weld. I've had
mostly good luck but a bit of bad luck. A lot depends on the metal and
the phase of Venus.
Indeed it is an art. When the welding equipment companies, or other
researchers, do a metallographic analysis of cast iron welds, the
results will leave you wondering how it ever works at all. The weld
and heat-affected zone typically is like a layer cake of weirdness.

Anyone who can get good results *consistently* is worth his pay.

BTW, the guy who allegedly was the highest-paid c.i. welder in the
world, an Italian who did nothing else, was hired and shipped in many
years ago by Bill Harrah to weld a crack in the block of his priceless
Bugatti Royale. He did it with O/A and c.i. rod. It worked, even
though it doubtless had oil in the (then) 60-year-old cast iron.

I don't know how he did the pre-heat or stress relief.

Yeah the haz in a cast weld gets interesting. Areas of carbon migration,
grain structure changes and lot's more.

Gas works real good for thin wall iron. You have to watch your flame
real close and only fill enough to ensure a good bond. Then watch it
real close for contraction while it cools. Add enough filler and you get
a good bond and repair, go under and it will crack again due to the
tension stress at the site. If you go over it will probably crack in a
different area due to the stress the extra material adds as it act's
like a wedge.
That sounds like things I've read, but I've never attempted it. I have
enough to keep me busy with mild steel. g

It must require a combination of experience, knowledge, and a
highly-developed feel for the materials and the work. And I'll bet
that several senses are working at the same time -- touch, vision,
hearing, and even smell.

As they say, it's quite an art.

Takes a bit of sorcery as well. I do quite a bit for the local farmers
and construction outfits. Tell them up front that MY repair will hold
BUT no guarantee that there won't be a failure doe to unknowns in the
castings. Nothing like a slag inclusion or localized carbon content
changes to ruin the party. Older castings tend to be easier to deal with
due to less "unknown scrap" in the cast pours of the day but you still
need to pay close attention.

Ideally with something like a used block or head where it has been in
oil I like to toss it in a vat for a couple days to leach out as much
oil as possible. That way you don't burn more carbon into the iron when
you heat it up. Then you preheat above operating temps and hold it there
while you weld. That is the fun part....
Have you tried methods other than gas welding? Like, nickel rods with
a stick welder, or anything else?

The subject interests me a lot, although I think I'll probably remain
an observer. I don't play with engines like I used to.

Yep. Gas, stick, MIG. High nickel rods, cast rods, brass, even used mild
steel rod on one. All depends on the size of the casting, location of
the damage and the actual stress on the area.

Something like a freeze crack in the side of a block where the only
stress is from cooling water and no real stress then a simple clean up
and braze works. Just be sure you stop drill the cracks and clean it
well then overlay the repair well past the damage to catch that hairline
fracture you don't see with the dye..

Cylinder heads or block webs are the fun ones. Large castings are
generally not real bad with a stick machine and the correct rod IF you
can get them above operating temps so the casting and weld can
expand/contract equally during normal use.

I tried TIG a few times but due to the concentrated heat it doesn't work
well for castings. The localized HAZ is so small that it is hard to
equalize the stresses even with pre-heating to equal temps.

Well, you have experience with the whole gamut. Did you just learn it
all on the job, or did you go for some training? It seems like
learning to weld c.i. must involve some testing to destruction, or
maybe just seeing what holds together?


I have an uncle who was a GE turbine welder. He taught me some of the
tricks for odd alloys with stick and MIG. A few odd classes here and
there plus a lot of trial and error learning what really works versus
what the "experts" say works. Plus I listen real close when I'm around
the folks who did this stuff for 30 years. Add in being a gear-head from
day one, more than willing to cut up something to test it or see how it
was originally put together and a weird innate mechanical ability to see
and understand how and why things work.

I am also one of those folks who will look something over and say, well
it's already broke, let's see if I can fix it.

Got my medical instructors during EMT classes all upset when I started
comparing the human body with a car...


--
Steve W.

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:04:51 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:32:36 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:04:02 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:32:06 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

It is an ART to repair a casting that won't crack again! A big part of
that is in the pre-heat and cool-down phases of the weld. I've had
mostly good luck but a bit of bad luck. A lot depends on the metal and
the phase of Venus.
Indeed it is an art. When the welding equipment companies, or other
researchers, do a metallographic analysis of cast iron welds, the
results will leave you wondering how it ever works at all. The weld
and heat-affected zone typically is like a layer cake of weirdness.

Anyone who can get good results *consistently* is worth his pay.

BTW, the guy who allegedly was the highest-paid c.i. welder in the
world, an Italian who did nothing else, was hired and shipped in many
years ago by Bill Harrah to weld a crack in the block of his priceless
Bugatti Royale. He did it with O/A and c.i. rod. It worked, even
though it doubtless had oil in the (then) 60-year-old cast iron.

I don't know how he did the pre-heat or stress relief.

Yeah the haz in a cast weld gets interesting. Areas of carbon migration,
grain structure changes and lot's more.

Gas works real good for thin wall iron. You have to watch your flame
real close and only fill enough to ensure a good bond. Then watch it
real close for contraction while it cools. Add enough filler and you get
a good bond and repair, go under and it will crack again due to the
tension stress at the site. If you go over it will probably crack in a
different area due to the stress the extra material adds as it act's
like a wedge.
That sounds like things I've read, but I've never attempted it. I have
enough to keep me busy with mild steel. g

It must require a combination of experience, knowledge, and a
highly-developed feel for the materials and the work. And I'll bet
that several senses are working at the same time -- touch, vision,
hearing, and even smell.

As they say, it's quite an art.

Takes a bit of sorcery as well. I do quite a bit for the local farmers
and construction outfits. Tell them up front that MY repair will hold
BUT no guarantee that there won't be a failure doe to unknowns in the
castings. Nothing like a slag inclusion or localized carbon content
changes to ruin the party. Older castings tend to be easier to deal with
due to less "unknown scrap" in the cast pours of the day but you still
need to pay close attention.

Ideally with something like a used block or head where it has been in
oil I like to toss it in a vat for a couple days to leach out as much
oil as possible. That way you don't burn more carbon into the iron when
you heat it up. Then you preheat above operating temps and hold it there
while you weld. That is the fun part....
Have you tried methods other than gas welding? Like, nickel rods with
a stick welder, or anything else?

The subject interests me a lot, although I think I'll probably remain
an observer. I don't play with engines like I used to.

Yep. Gas, stick, MIG. High nickel rods, cast rods, brass, even used mild
steel rod on one. All depends on the size of the casting, location of
the damage and the actual stress on the area.

Something like a freeze crack in the side of a block where the only
stress is from cooling water and no real stress then a simple clean up
and braze works. Just be sure you stop drill the cracks and clean it
well then overlay the repair well past the damage to catch that hairline
fracture you don't see with the dye..

Cylinder heads or block webs are the fun ones. Large castings are
generally not real bad with a stick machine and the correct rod IF you
can get them above operating temps so the casting and weld can
expand/contract equally during normal use.

I tried TIG a few times but due to the concentrated heat it doesn't work
well for castings. The localized HAZ is so small that it is hard to
equalize the stresses even with pre-heating to equal temps.

Well, you have experience with the whole gamut. Did you just learn it
all on the job, or did you go for some training? It seems like
learning to weld c.i. must involve some testing to destruction, or
maybe just seeing what holds together?


I have an uncle who was a GE turbine welder. He taught me some of the
tricks for odd alloys with stick and MIG. A few odd classes here and
there plus a lot of trial and error learning what really works versus
what the "experts" say works. Plus I listen real close when I'm around
the folks who did this stuff for 30 years. Add in being a gear-head from
day one, more than willing to cut up something to test it or see how it
was originally put together and a weird innate mechanical ability to see
and understand how and why things work.

I am also one of those folks who will look something over and say, well
it's already broke, let's see if I can fix it.

Got my medical instructors during EMT classes all upset when I started
comparing the human body with a car...

g I'll bet. I'll guess that quite a few folks here find they have
difficult-to-explain insights into mechanical things. I used to try to
explain a feeling I had racing, or in any car, by which I felt like I
had dissolved into it and could feel things like they were happening
inside of me, instead of to the car.

It's helpful in understanding structures, too. I can feel them
absorbing their loads. It's weird.

Anyway, to something more serious: Someone should write an article
about your experience, how you learned, what it takes, and so on. I
mean that seriously. If I wrote for any magazines that covered manual
welding, I'd want to do it myself, like I wrote an article some years
about about Dobbie Dave and his screw machines.

Those things are pretty rare and an important part of documenting
facets of the trade and the craft.

--
Ed Huntress

On 4/15/2013 8:32 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 02:10:06 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 4/14/2013 11:24 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:55:22 -0500, Ignoramus25056
wrote:

On 2013-04-15, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus25056 wrote:

On 2013-04-14, Gunner Asch wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

Gunner


I enjoyed it greatly, but I did not understand what you did.

i

He removed a tool changer/toolpost turret from a very large CNC lathe,
took it to a shop to repair a cracked casting properly and then
reassembled it. 9" spindle bore, probably threading oil well drill
string pipe fittings or something. Probably 100HP spindle. Big MF.

OK, I got it, thanks. I usually think that if it cracked once, it will
crack again. But it was a fun project.

i

If its fixed properly..and it was..it wont crack again. At least not
in that location.



It is an ART to repair a casting that won't crack again! A big part of
that is in the pre-heat and cool-down phases of the weld. I've had
mostly good luck but a bit of bad luck. A lot depends on the metal and
the phase of Venus.

Indeed it is an art. When the welding equipment companies, or other
researchers, do a metallographic analysis of cast iron welds, the
results will leave you wondering how it ever works at all. The weld
and heat-affected zone typically is like a layer cake of weirdness.

Anyone who can get good results *consistently* is worth his pay.

BTW, the guy who allegedly was the highest-paid c.i. welder in the
world, an Italian who did nothing else, was hired and shipped in many
years ago by Bill Harrah to weld a crack in the block of his priceless
Bugatti Royale. He did it with O/A and c.i. rod. It worked, even
though it doubtless had oil in the (then) 60-year-old cast iron.

I don't know how he did the pre-heat or stress relief.



He STILL had luck! ...along with the "knack".

On 4/15/2013 11:39 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:32:06 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

It is an ART to repair a casting that won't crack again! A big part of
that is in the pre-heat and cool-down phases of the weld. I've had
mostly good luck but a bit of bad luck. A lot depends on the metal and
the phase of Venus.

Indeed it is an art. When the welding equipment companies, or other
researchers, do a metallographic analysis of cast iron welds, the
results will leave you wondering how it ever works at all. The weld
and heat-affected zone typically is like a layer cake of weirdness.

Anyone who can get good results *consistently* is worth his pay.

BTW, the guy who allegedly was the highest-paid c.i. welder in the
world, an Italian who did nothing else, was hired and shipped in many
years ago by Bill Harrah to weld a crack in the block of his priceless
Bugatti Royale. He did it with O/A and c.i. rod. It worked, even
though it doubtless had oil in the (then) 60-year-old cast iron.

I don't know how he did the pre-heat or stress relief.


Yeah the haz in a cast weld gets interesting. Areas of carbon migration,
grain structure changes and lot's more.

Gas works real good for thin wall iron. You have to watch your flame
real close and only fill enough to ensure a good bond. Then watch it
real close for contraction while it cools. Add enough filler and you get
a good bond and repair, go under and it will crack again due to the
tension stress at the site. If you go over it will probably crack in a
different area due to the stress the extra material adds as it act's
like a wedge.

That sounds like things I've read, but I've never attempted it. I have
enough to keep me busy with mild steel. g

It must require a combination of experience, knowledge, and a
highly-developed feel for the materials and the work. And I'll bet
that several senses are working at the same time -- touch, vision,
hearing, and even smell.

As they say, it's quite an art.



I'll have to check but I wonder if I have a single staple-set brush
machine out of 11 that DOESN'T have a repaired casting. Even though all
the parts are still available from the manufacturer, my previous
generation repaired stuff rather than replacing. Not so much cracks
but clean breaks...which are a hell of a lot easier to repair than cracks.