Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop in
the area . The neighbor and his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!
--
Snag
Gotta figger out
shop rates now ...

On 4/9/2013 11:22 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop in
the area . The neighborand his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!


Congratulations, Terry!

Do you think you can pay the bills with this kind of work?

On 2013-04-10, Terry Coombs wrote:
Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop in
the area . The neighbor and his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!

Wow, this is great! Sweet.

i

"Richard" wrote in message
m...
On 4/9/2013 11:22 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and
stuff to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger
for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop
in
the area . The neighborand his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to
be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!


Congratulations, Terry!

Do you think you can pay the bills with this kind of work?




I think there's a good chance that between the shop and doing handyman
type work I can do pretty well . It helps that we have basically no bills -
the mortgage on the Memphis property and day to day living expenses come to
just over $1500 per month - and everything else is paid for . . And the wife
, working at WM righ now , is trying to get a teaching position here . And
hey , if it gets really tight I can always go work at WM myself .
--
Snag

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:22:08 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

Kudos!


In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff to
Mountain View AR .

I grew up (ages 5-1/2 to 12-1/2) on LRAFB and in North Little Rock.
When we moved to CA, I happily left about half my allergies behind.
When I moved to OR, I happily left another 35% of them.


Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop in
the area . The neighbor and his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!

Excellent. That should get you some interesting rides.

As far as shop rates go, you might check the going rates at machine
shops and auto repair shops to come up with what the market will bear.

--
A sound mind in a sound body is a short but full description
of a happy state in this world.
-- John Locke

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 23:22:08 -0500, Terry Coombs wrote:

Gotta figger out
shop rates now ...

Heh heh. Better you than me!!!

Whatever else you do, be sure that they're enough to cover upkeep and
taxes on the machines and buildings, and consumables and all that. You
don't want to price yourself so low that you just slowly sink into the
ground.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

In article ,
Tim Wescott wrote:

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 23:22:08 -0500, Terry Coombs wrote:

Gotta figger out
shop rates now ...

Heh heh. Better you than me!!!

Whatever else you do, be sure that they're enough to cover upkeep and
taxes on the machines and buildings, and consumables and all that. You
don't want to price yourself so low that you just slowly sink into the
ground.

Yup. If you are going to go there, go there seriously. Sometimes this
may lead to not going there, otherwise it leads to a greater liklihood
of success. It's far too easy to go low and go out of business.

When calculating my shop rates, I include:

My "wage" not ever to be confused with the shop rate.

Self-employment taxes.

Fudge factors for retirement and health care (while "the day job" may
pay that now, the first can always use more and the "moonlight" job
should contribute, and the second is good to build in for the
eventuality of the day job going away, or the shop becoming the day job.)

Utilities and land taxes.

Quite possibly some business-specific liability insurance. Can be
surprisingly affordable. May never be needed. Good to have if ever
needed.

A "profit" for the shop over and above these. Construe it as
depreciation on equipment & building if that works better for your head.
Or account for those and still put in a bit more for the shop over those.

I also sanity check by looking at what the shop rate is for an auto
mechanic in the area, since that is very easy to find posted on the
wall. If you come in under that, go up. Alternatively, start there,
round up if not a round number, take away until you see what your hourly
"wage" would be, and then see if you want to adjust.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

Thanks for the good news. Glad someone is being successful.
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop in
the area . The neighbor and his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!
--
Snag
Gotta figger out
shop rates now ...

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:22:08 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop in
the area . The neighbor and his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!


$65hr is a good starting rate here in California

Some guys have been working for $45hr.

Im closing down their shops

Shrug

Gunner

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:22:08 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff
to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger
for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop
in
the area . The neighbor and his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to
be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!


$65hr is a good starting rate here in California

Some guys have been working for $45hr.

Im closing down their shops

Shrug

Gunner


In Stone County Arkansas it's a bit lower than that . A good friend runs a
car resto business , he gets $35/hour , the Chevy dealer is at $47.50 .
Folks up here don't have a lot of money , but then the COL is lower too . My
rates are going to be around $35-40 , depending on what and who .
--
Snag

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 06:55:54 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:22:08 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop in
the area . The neighbor and his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!


$65hr is a good starting rate here in California

Some guys have been working for $45hr.

Im closing down their shops

Shrug

Gunner

I thought Snag was talking about a shop rate, is that what you are
talking about. $65 an hour for shop work?

Not to argue but I had thought shop rates for one off jobs would be in
the $100/hour range.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:31:08 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 06:55:54 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:22:08 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop in
the area . The neighbor and his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!


$65hr is a good starting rate here in California

Some guys have been working for $45hr.

Im closing down their shops

Shrug

Gunner

I thought Snag was talking about a shop rate, is that what you are
talking about. $65 an hour for shop work?

Not to argue but I had thought shop rates for one off jobs would be in
the $100/hour range.

Most shops charge the same for one off or production..but they will
barter some for long term production.

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:08:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:31:08 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 06:55:54 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:22:08 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop in
the area . The neighbor and his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!


$65hr is a good starting rate here in California

Some guys have been working for $45hr.

Im closing down their shops

Shrug

Gunner

I thought Snag was talking about a shop rate, is that what you are
talking about. $65 an hour for shop work?

Not to argue but I had thought shop rates for one off jobs would be in
the $100/hour range.

Most shops charge the same for one off or production..but they will
barter some for long term production.


By "one off" I was intending to mean jobs where someone wants to make
(or repair) a whatsit as opposed to a manufacturing job where you cost
the material, cost the electricity, cost the machine operator's cost,
cost the resale of the scrap, and so on.

But if shop costs are $65 than how much is the machinist's salary? We
used to figure that we had to charge at least twice the salary to
cover salary, and overhead such as annual leave, tax, insurance, etc.,
profit was on top of that.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 06:38:26 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:08:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:31:08 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 06:55:54 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:22:08 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop in
the area . The neighbor and his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!


$65hr is a good starting rate here in California

Some guys have been working for $45hr.

Im closing down their shops

Shrug

Gunner

I thought Snag was talking about a shop rate, is that what you are
talking about. $65 an hour for shop work?

Not to argue but I had thought shop rates for one off jobs would be in
the $100/hour range.

Most shops charge the same for one off or production..but they will
barter some for long term production.


By "one off" I was intending to mean jobs where someone wants to make
(or repair) a whatsit as opposed to a manufacturing job where you cost
the material, cost the electricity, cost the machine operator's cost,
cost the resale of the scrap, and so on.

But if shop costs are $65 than how much is the machinist's salary? We
used to figure that we had to charge at least twice the salary to
cover salary, and overhead such as annual leave, tax, insurance, etc.,
profit was on top of that.

In California..machinest wages run from $10-30 an hour. Most small
shops the guys make around $15/hr, in bigger shops like Boeing etc
etc..it runs to the high end and a bit beyond.

So those numbers fit into your formula nicely.

The guy that charged my client for fixing his turret last week,
charged about $65 or so per hour. That includes all the machinery,
materials, etc etc and all the insurance etc etc.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 9:22:08 PM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:


that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for

mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be

involved with building fast cars and bikes !!


Terry:

I don't know if you're aware of it or not... but supercharged engines use low compression ratios. My supercharged cars ran 7:1, and my turbocharged car ran 6:1.
If this 5.0 "Highly Modified" engine was designed to be normally aspirated it "could" have a compression ratio in the 11:1 or 12:1 range. It would detonate & destroy itself within minutes if you made any significant boost at full throttle.


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:00:12 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 06:38:26 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:08:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:31:08 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 06:55:54 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:22:08 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop in
the area . The neighbor and his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!


$65hr is a good starting rate here in California

Some guys have been working for $45hr.

Im closing down their shops

Shrug

Gunner

I thought Snag was talking about a shop rate, is that what you are
talking about. $65 an hour for shop work?

Not to argue but I had thought shop rates for one off jobs would be in
the $100/hour range.

Most shops charge the same for one off or production..but they will
barter some for long term production.


By "one off" I was intending to mean jobs where someone wants to make
(or repair) a whatsit as opposed to a manufacturing job where you cost
the material, cost the electricity, cost the machine operator's cost,
cost the resale of the scrap, and so on.

But if shop costs are $65 than how much is the machinist's salary? We
used to figure that we had to charge at least twice the salary to
cover salary, and overhead such as annual leave, tax, insurance, etc.,
profit was on top of that.

In California..machinest wages run from $10-30 an hour. Most small
shops the guys make around $15/hr, in bigger shops like Boeing etc
etc..it runs to the high end and a bit beyond.

Jeasus... and here I'd been reading about all those guys on the Ford
assembly line costing $65 an hour.

So those numbers fit into your formula nicely.

The guy that charged my client for fixing his turret last week,
charged about $65 or so per hour. That includes all the machinery,
materials, etc etc and all the insurance etc etc.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

--
Cheers,

John B.

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 9:22:08 PM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:


that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for

mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to
be

involved with building fast cars and bikes !!


Terry:

I don't know if you're aware of it or not... but supercharged engines use
low compression ratios. My supercharged cars ran 7:1, and my turbocharged
car ran 6:1.
If this 5.0 "Highly Modified" engine was designed to be normally aspirated
it "could" have a compression ratio in the 11:1 or 12:1 range. It would
detonate & destroy itself within minutes if you made any significant boost
at full throttle.


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Bob , it ain't my car ... that said , this guy has been building motors
for years , been down the turbo road and didn't like the lag . I'm pretty
sure he knows what he's doing . His latest build is supposed to be able to
turn something like 14,000 RPM's - I didn't know a V8 could spin that fast !
--
Snag

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:30:06 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:00:12 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

In California..machinest wages run from $10-30 an hour. Most small
shops the guys make around $15/hr, in bigger shops like Boeing etc
etc..it runs to the high end and a bit beyond.

Jeasus... and here I'd been reading about all those guys on the Ford
assembly line costing $65 an hour.

That's the "Loaded Labor Rate", when they figure in all the costs of
having the employee work for them - social security and other taxes,
Union Dues and the companies cost of dealing with the contract talks
every four years, the retirement plan and 401K and ESOP contributions,
Medical & Dental, uniforms and cleaning, water and soap in the
bathrooms, vacation pay for the worker and the cost of the Temp taking
their place etc. And the portion of the Supervisor's and Foreman's
and Department Clerk's wages allotted to keeping the worker working
and handling all that paperwork.

The worker might be clearing $20 "Plus Bennies" - it costs Ford $65
for them being there. But even though they cost a lot, they get a lot
more done in that same hour to make up the difference - they are
pulling a complete car off that line more than one a minute, without a
lot of rework or failures.

Manufacturing tries to run to low-wage countries like Vietnam and
Bangladesh - The worker clears $2 an hour no bennies, and the loaded
rate is $20 or $25 - Much higher supervision cost percentage with
lower skilled workers.

Unfortunately the productivity is much lower which means the product
really isn't that much cheaper, and the reject and failure rates on
the products are going to be higher.

Often the companies have to run a testing center in the US and do 100%
QA checks on the imported products before they ship to retailers -
because it's far easier and cheaper to deal with a 25% failure/rework
rate at the warehouse where the repair bench is. Otherwise they have
to pay shipping the defective unit both ways, and deal with many irate
customers. (Cough-Fanon-Courier-Cough) Especially when the
replacement is defective too...

-- Bruce --

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:30:06 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:00:12 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 06:38:26 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:08:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:31:08 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 06:55:54 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:22:08 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop in
the area . The neighbor and his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!


$65hr is a good starting rate here in California

Some guys have been working for $45hr.

Im closing down their shops

Shrug

Gunner

I thought Snag was talking about a shop rate, is that what you are
talking about. $65 an hour for shop work?

Not to argue but I had thought shop rates for one off jobs would be in
the $100/hour range.

Most shops charge the same for one off or production..but they will
barter some for long term production.


By "one off" I was intending to mean jobs where someone wants to make
(or repair) a whatsit as opposed to a manufacturing job where you cost
the material, cost the electricity, cost the machine operator's cost,
cost the resale of the scrap, and so on.

But if shop costs are $65 than how much is the machinist's salary? We
used to figure that we had to charge at least twice the salary to
cover salary, and overhead such as annual leave, tax, insurance, etc.,
profit was on top of that.

In California..machinest wages run from $10-30 an hour. Most small
shops the guys make around $15/hr, in bigger shops like Boeing etc
etc..it runs to the high end and a bit beyond.

Jeasus... and here I'd been reading about all those guys on the Ford
assembly line costing $65 an hour.

Ford/Boeing/Chevy etc are special cases. They are union. And Unions
only make up about 7% (today) of employees. The $65 an hour is one
of the reasons unions have been in decline for 50 yrs.



So those numbers fit into your formula nicely.

The guy that charged my client for fixing his turret last week,
charged about $65 or so per hour. That includes all the machinery,
materials, etc etc and all the insurance etc etc.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1040422...aTurretRebuild

On 4/15/2013 6:30 AM, J.B.Slocomb wrote:
....

Jeasus... and here I'd been reading about all those guys on the Ford
assembly line costing $65 an hour.

....

"Costing" probably about right--that includes bennies, etc.

Actual wages will be around half or maybe even under half that depending
on the actual contract benefit package...

Some data; no idea how representative but probably not terribly far off...

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/machinist-salary-SRCH_KO0,9.htm

They are volunteered so likely it's the ones that are proud of
themselves sampled more heavily than the lower-paid as a first guess...

--

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:24:43 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 4/15/2013 6:30 AM, J.B.Slocomb wrote:
...

Jeasus... and here I'd been reading about all those guys on the Ford
assembly line costing $65 an hour.

...

"Costing" probably about right--that includes bennies, etc.

Actual wages will be around half or maybe even under half that depending
on the actual contract benefit package...

Some data; no idea how representative but probably not terribly far off...

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/machinist-salary-SRCH_KO0,9.htm

They are volunteered so likely it's the ones that are proud of
themselves sampled more heavily than the lower-paid as a first guess...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2152619AAqHUt5

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-8875..

From (9) years ago. Wages have almost doubled since then...

Ten most overpaid jobs in the U.S.
NewsTeam | CBS [Marke****ch] | POSTED: 11.10.03 @07:00

"Fair compensation" is a relative term, yet human-resource consultants
and executive headhunters agree some jobs command excessive
compensation that can't be explained by labor supply-and-demand
imbalances. And while it's easy to argue that chief executives,
lawyers and movie stars are overpaid, reality is not that cut and dry

Hollywood stars, making $20 million a movie or $10 million per
TV-season, qualify for many people's overpaid list. But for every one
of those actors and actresses, there are a thousand waiting tables and
taking bit movie parts or regional theater roles awaiting a big break
that never comes.

"A lot of people are overpaid because there are certain things
consumers just don't want screwed up," said Bill Coleman, senior vice
president of compensation for Salary.com. "You wouldn't want to board
a plane flown by a second-rate pilot or hire a cheap wedding
photographer to record an event you hope happens once in your
lifetime.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/765687/posts


A comment from this series of messages struck me as a perfect example
of Liberalism

"* About 9 years ago, a Russian co-worker described the peasant
mentality in Russia this way: "If your neighbor paints his house, and
it makes your house look shabby, an American would paint his own house
to keep up, a Russian would burn his neighbor's house to the ground."
"


Great sig snippage by simply changing Russian to Leftwinger.

Gunner

What follows is a list of the 10 most overpaid jobs in the U.S., in
reverse order, drafted with input from compensation experts:

10) Wedding photographers
Photographers typically charge $2,000 to $5,000 to shoot a wedding,
for what amounts to a one-day assignment plus processing time. Some
get $15,000 or more. Yet many mope through the job, bumping guests in
their way without apology, with the attitude: "I'm just doing this for
the money until Time or National Geographic calls."

They must cover equipment and film-development costs. Still, many in
major metropolitan areas who shoot two weddings each weekend in the
May-to-October marrying season pull in $100,000 for six months' work.

Yet let's face it; much of their work is mediocre. Have you ever
really been wowed flipping the pages of a wedding album handed you by
recent newlyweds? Annie Leibovitz and Richard Avedon they're not, but
some charge fees as if they're in the same league.

9) Pilots for major airlines
Captains with 12 years of experience earn up to $265 an hour at Delta,
United, American and Northwest, which translates to $250,000 a year
and more for a job that technology is making almost fully automated.

By comparison, senior pilots at low-fare carriers like Southwest and
Jet Blue make about 40 percent less. That helps explain why their
employers are profitable while several of the majors are teetering on
the brink of bankruptcy.

The pilot's union is the most powerful in the industry. It commands
premium wages as if still in the glory days of long-gone Pan Am and
TWA, rather than the cutthroat, deregulated market of under-$200
coast-to-coast roundtrips. Because we entrust our lives to them,
consumers accept the excessive sums paid them, when it's airplane
mechanics who really hold our fate in their hands.

8) West Coast longshoremen
In early 2002, West Coast ports shut down as the longshoremen's union
fought to preserve generous health-care benefits that would make most
Americans drool. The union didn't demand much in wage hikes for good
reason: Its members already were making a boatload of money.

Next year, West Coast dockworkers will earn an average of $112,000 for
handling cargo, according to the Pacific Maritime Association, their
employer. Office clerks who log shipping records into computers will
earn $136,000. And unionized foremen who oversee the rank-and-file
will pull down an average $177,000.

Unlike their East Coast union brethren who compete with non-union
ports in the South and Gulf of Mexico, the West Coast stevedores have
an ironfisted lock on Pacific ports. Given their rare monopoly, they
can disrupt U.S. commerce -- as they did during the FDR years -- and
command exorbitant wages, even though their work is more automated and
less hazardous than in the days of "On the Waterfront."

7) Airport skycaps
Many of the uniformed baggage handlers who check in luggage at
curbside pull in more than $100,000 a year -- most of it in cash.

On top of their $30,000 to $40,000 salaries, peak earners take in $300
or more a day in tips. Sound implausible? That amounts to a $2 tip
from 18 travelers an hour on average. Many tip more than that.

While most skycaps are cordial, a good many treat customers with blank
indifference, knowing harried travelers don't want to brave counter
check-ins, especially in the post 9/11 age. Their work is more
mindless than that of a McDonald's counter clerk, who at least has to
bag the order correctly.

6) Real estate agents selling high-end homes
Anyone who puts in a little effort can pass the test to get a real
estate agent's license, which makes the vast sums that luxury-home
agents earn stupefying.

While most agents hustle tail to earn $60,000 a year, those in
affluent areas can pull down $200,000-plus for half the effort,
courtesy of the fatter commissions on pricier listings.

Luxury home agents live off the economy's fat, yet many put on airs as
if they're members of the class whose homes they're selling, and eye
underdressed open-house visitors as if they're casing the joint.

5) Motivational speakers and ex-politicians on lecture circuit
Whether it's for knighted ex-Mayor Rudy Guiliani or Tom "In Search of
Excellence" Peters, corporate trade groups pay astronomical sums to
celebrity-types and political has-beens to address their convention
audiences.

Former President Reagan raised the bar back in 1989 when he took $2
million from Japanese business groups for making two speeches. Bill
Clinton earned $9.5 million on 60 speeches last year, though most of
those earnings went to charity and to fund his presidential library.

The national convention circuit's shame is that it blows trade-group
members' money on orators whose speeches often have been warmed over a
dozen times.

4) Orthodontists
For a 35-hour workweek, orthodontists earn a median $350,000 a year,
according to the Journal of Clinical Orthodontics. General dentists,
meanwhile, earn about half as much working 39 hours a week on average,
in a much dirtier job.

The difference in their training isn't like that of a heart surgeon
vs. a family-practice doctor. It's a mere two years, and a vastly
rewarding investment if you're among the chosen: U.S. dental schools
have long been criticized for keeping orthodontists in artificially
low supply to keep their income up.

This isn't brain surgery: Orthodontists simply manipulate teeth in a
growing child's mouth -- and often leave adjustment work to assistants
whose handiwork they merely sign off on. What makes their windfall
egregious is that they stick parents with most of the inflated bill,
since orthodontia insurance benefits cover nowhere near as large a
percentage as for general dentistry.

3) CEOs of poorly performing companies
Most U.S. chief executives are vastly overpaid, but if their company
is rewarding shareholders and employees, producing quality products of
good value and being a responsible corporate citizen, it's hard to
take issue with their compensation.

CEOs at chronically unprofitable companies and those forever lagging
industry peers stand as the most grossly overpaid. Most know they
should resign -- in shareholders' and employees' interest -- but they
survive because corporate boards that oversee them remain stacked with
friends and family members.

The ultimate excess comes after they're finally forced out, usually by
insiders tired of seeing their own stock holdings plummet. These
long-time losers draw multimillion-dollar severance packages as a
reward for their failed stewardship.

2) Washed-up pro athletes in long-term contracts
Pro athletes at the top of their game deserve what they earn for being
the best in their business. It's those who sign whopping, long-term
contracts after a few strong years, and then find their talents
vanish, who reap unconscionable sums of money.

NBA player Shawn Kemp, for instance, earned $10 million in a year he
averaged a pathetic 6.1 points and 3.8 rebounds a game. Colorado
Rockies pitcher Mike Hampton earned $9.5 million -- in the second year
of an eight-year, $121 million contract -- and compiled a 7-15
won-loss record with a pitiful earned-run average of 6.15.

Thank the players' unions for refusing to negotiate contracts based on
performance -- and driving up the cost of tickets to levels
unaffordable for a family of four, especially for football and
basketball. They point to owners as the culprits, yet golf star Tiger
Woods and tennis champ Serena Williams earn their keep based on their
performance in each tournament.

1) Mutual-fund managers
Everyone on Wall Street makes far too much for the backbreaking work
of moving money around, but mutual fund managers are emerging as among
the most reprehensible.

This isn't kicking 'em when they're down, given the growing
fund-industry scandal. They've been long overpaid. Stock-fund managers
can easily earn $500,000 to $1 million a year including bonuses --
even though only 3 in 10 beat the market in the last 10 years.

Now we discover an untold number enriched themselves and favored
clients with illegally timed trades of fund shares. That's a worse
betrayal of trust than the corporate scandals of recent years, since
they're supposed to be on the little person's side.

Put aside what fund managers earn and consider their bosses. Putnam's
ex-CEO Lawrence J. Lasser's income rivals the bloated pay package that
sparked New York Stock Exchange President Dick Grasso's ouster.
Lasser's take: An estimated total of $163 million over the last five
years.

If only we were all so fortunate.

Chris Pummer is personal finance editor for CBS.Marke****ch.com in San
Francisco.

On Monday, April 15, 2013 5:19:29 AM UTC-7, Terry Coombs wrote:
"BottleBob" wrote in message

Bob , it ain't my car ... that said , this guy has been building motors

for years , been down the turbo road and didn't like the lag . I'm pretty

sure he knows what he's doing . His latest build is supposed to be able to

turn something like 14,000 RPM's - I didn't know a V8 could spin that fast !


Terry:

I just didn't want you to get blamed if the results of the project didn't turn out as the customer wished, and he was looking for a scapegoat.

As far as the 14,000 RPM goes... While the 5.0's 3" stroke is short and good for some R's, 14k is certainly not going to be your granddad's pushrod 5.0 Mustang engine. LOL

Sounds like he somehow scored some Coates Spherical Rotary Valve Heads. (I'll make a new post about them)

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:47:28 -0700, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
readable)" wrote:

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:30:06 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:00:12 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

In California..machinest wages run from $10-30 an hour. Most small
shops the guys make around $15/hr, in bigger shops like Boeing etc
etc..it runs to the high end and a bit beyond.

Jeasus... and here I'd been reading about all those guys on the Ford
assembly line costing $65 an hour.

That's the "Loaded Labor Rate", when they figure in all the costs of
having the employee work for them - social security and other taxes,
Union Dues and the companies cost of dealing with the contract talks
every four years, the retirement plan and 401K and ESOP contributions,
Medical & Dental, uniforms and cleaning, water and soap in the
bathrooms, vacation pay for the worker and the cost of the Temp taking
their place etc. And the portion of the Supervisor's and Foreman's
and Department Clerk's wages allotted to keeping the worker working
and handling all that paperwork.

Yes, I am aware of that..... the reason that we used to charge 2 x
salary.

The worker might be clearing $20 "Plus Bennies" - it costs Ford $65
for them being there. But even though they cost a lot, they get a lot
more done in that same hour to make up the difference - they are
pulling a complete car off that line more than one a minute, without a
lot of rework or failures.

Manufacturing tries to run to low-wage countries like Vietnam and
Bangladesh - The worker clears $2 an hour no bennies, and the loaded
rate is $20 or $25 - Much higher supervision cost percentage with
lower skilled workers.

It is a bit more complicated than that. the cost of doing business in
most Asian countries is far cheaper then in America. Certainly wages
and medical and Insurance is cheaper but so are that other costs. Far
fewer government related costs.

Unfortunately the productivity is much lower which means the product
really isn't that much cheaper, and the reject and failure rates on
the products are going to be higher.


True. Caterpillar has a plant in Indonesia building machines for the
local market. They tell me that the actual cost of building a unit is
far higher than in Japan, for example. BUT... Indonesia has laws
protecting the local manufacturers and thus local made items have a
virtual monopoly in the market.

Often the companies have to run a testing center in the US and do 100%
QA checks on the imported products before they ship to retailers -
because it's far easier and cheaper to deal with a 25% failure/rework
rate at the warehouse where the repair bench is. Otherwise they have
to pay shipping the defective unit both ways, and deal with many irate
customers. (Cough-Fanon-Courier-Cough) Especially when the
replacement is defective too...

-- Bruce --

I can't say for all items but the machinery manufacturers seem to do
their QC at time of manufacture. At least in Thailand as Ford and
Chevrolet both build pickup trucks here and their quality is no
different from the Japanese trucks made here.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:17:36 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:30:06 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:00:12 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 06:38:26 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:08:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:31:08 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 06:55:54 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:22:08 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Payin' job should leave my "new" shop tomorrow !

In the last few months I've been moving equipment , carport , and stuff to
Mountain View AR . Today I altered the mounting config on a supercharger for
my neighbor , the first paying job in the new shop . I think I've found a
niche here , as far as I know there's not another "odd job" machine shop in
the area . The neighbor and his son have given me an in to the local
fast-car crowd ... that first job is altering a Jag supercharger for
mounting on a Ford 5.0 highly modified motor . Hey , I always wanted to be
involved with building fast cars and bikes !!


$65hr is a good starting rate here in California

Some guys have been working for $45hr.

Im closing down their shops

Shrug

Gunner

I thought Snag was talking about a shop rate, is that what you are
talking about. $65 an hour for shop work?

Not to argue but I had thought shop rates for one off jobs would be in
the $100/hour range.

Most shops charge the same for one off or production..but they will
barter some for long term production.


By "one off" I was intending to mean jobs where someone wants to make
(or repair) a whatsit as opposed to a manufacturing job where you cost
the material, cost the electricity, cost the machine operator's cost,
cost the resale of the scrap, and so on.

But if shop costs are $65 than how much is the machinist's salary? We
used to figure that we had to charge at least twice the salary to
cover salary, and overhead such as annual leave, tax, insurance, etc.,
profit was on top of that.

In California..machinest wages run from $10-30 an hour. Most small
shops the guys make around $15/hr, in bigger shops like Boeing etc
etc..it runs to the high end and a bit beyond.

Jeasus... and here I'd been reading about all those guys on the Ford
assembly line costing $65 an hour.

Ford/Boeing/Chevy etc are special cases. They are union. And Unions
only make up about 7% (today) of employees. The $65 an hour is one
of the reasons unions have been in decline for 50 yrs.

Yes, I realize that.... I was only commenting as generally the
$65/hour is what is perceived as "American rates :-)

But $10/hour certainly seems low. that is what? About $400 a week?
Even with the prices I see on the Internet that seems like pretty low
pay.

(what does McDonalds pay these days :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 16:12:04 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:24:43 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 4/15/2013 6:30 AM, J.B.Slocomb wrote:
...

Jeasus... and here I'd been reading about all those guys on the Ford
assembly line costing $65 an hour.

...

"Costing" probably about right--that includes bennies, etc.

Actual wages will be around half or maybe even under half that depending
on the actual contract benefit package...

Some data; no idea how representative but probably not terribly far off...

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/machinist-salary-SRCH_KO0,9.htm

They are volunteered so likely it's the ones that are proud of
themselves sampled more heavily than the lower-paid as a first guess...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2152619AAqHUt5

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-8875..

From (9) years ago. Wages have almost doubled since then...

Ten most overpaid jobs in the U.S.
NewsTeam | CBS [Marke****ch] | POSTED: 11.10.03 @07:00

"Fair compensation" is a relative term, yet human-resource consultants
and executive headhunters agree some jobs command excessive
compensation that can't be explained by labor supply-and-demand
imbalances. And while it's easy to argue that chief executives,
lawyers and movie stars are overpaid, reality is not that cut and dry

Hollywood stars, making $20 million a movie or $10 million per
TV-season, qualify for many people's overpaid list. But for every one
of those actors and actresses, there are a thousand waiting tables and
taking bit movie parts or regional theater roles awaiting a big break
that never comes.

"A lot of people are overpaid because there are certain things
consumers just don't want screwed up," said Bill Coleman, senior vice
president of compensation for Salary.com. "You wouldn't want to board
a plane flown by a second-rate pilot or hire a cheap wedding
photographer to record an event you hope happens once in your
lifetime.


Much snipped

I think there is a certain amount of exaggeration here. A movie star
making 20M a picture is paid that because their name draws movie goers
and a picture with a big name cast will make more money then a movie
with a no name caste.

My own experience, and the experience of friends working as
expatriates is that if you can save (or make) your company a bundle
then you can demand high wages but drones, and there are still some of
them around, usually don't get their contract renewed :-(

I've got a friend, for example, that is the chief oil trader for an
American company in Singapore. He tells me that he gets a basic
salary, which sounds high until you learn how much living costs are in
Singapore, and than he gets a bonus. the bonus is based on 10% of the
profit the company makes on his trades and he tells me that he has
worked for Price Waterhouse and Lehman Bros and in general that is how
traders are paid.

Getting paid 10% of the profits you generate for a company doesn't
seem like excessive pay :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 08:31:32 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 16:12:04 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:24:43 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 4/15/2013 6:30 AM, J.B.Slocomb wrote:
...

Jeasus... and here I'd been reading about all those guys on the Ford
assembly line costing $65 an hour.

...

"Costing" probably about right--that includes bennies, etc.

Actual wages will be around half or maybe even under half that depending
on the actual contract benefit package...

Some data; no idea how representative but probably not terribly far off...

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/machinist-salary-SRCH_KO0,9.htm

They are volunteered so likely it's the ones that are proud of
themselves sampled more heavily than the lower-paid as a first guess...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2152619AAqHUt5

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-8875..

From (9) years ago. Wages have almost doubled since then...

Ten most overpaid jobs in the U.S.
NewsTeam | CBS [Marke****ch] | POSTED: 11.10.03 @07:00

"Fair compensation" is a relative term, yet human-resource consultants
and executive headhunters agree some jobs command excessive
compensation that can't be explained by labor supply-and-demand
imbalances. And while it's easy to argue that chief executives,
lawyers and movie stars are overpaid, reality is not that cut and dry

Hollywood stars, making $20 million a movie or $10 million per
TV-season, qualify for many people's overpaid list. But for every one
of those actors and actresses, there are a thousand waiting tables and
taking bit movie parts or regional theater roles awaiting a big break
that never comes.

"A lot of people are overpaid because there are certain things
consumers just don't want screwed up," said Bill Coleman, senior vice
president of compensation for Salary.com. "You wouldn't want to board
a plane flown by a second-rate pilot or hire a cheap wedding
photographer to record an event you hope happens once in your
lifetime.


Much snipped

I think there is a certain amount of exaggeration here. A movie star
making 20M a picture is paid that because their name draws movie goers
and a picture with a big name cast will make more money then a movie
with a no name caste.

My own experience, and the experience of friends working as
expatriates is that if you can save (or make) your company a bundle
then you can demand high wages but drones, and there are still some of
them around, usually don't get their contract renewed :-(

I've got a friend, for example, that is the chief oil trader for an
American company in Singapore. He tells me that he gets a basic
salary, which sounds high until you learn how much living costs are in
Singapore, and than he gets a bonus. the bonus is based on 10% of the
profit the company makes on his trades and he tells me that he has
worked for Price Waterhouse and Lehman Bros and in general that is how
traders are paid.

Getting paid 10% of the profits you generate for a company doesn't
seem like excessive pay :-)


Unless you are one of the guys turning out 10% of the companies
parts..and are making $15 an hour.

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 18:18:16 +0700
J.B.Slocomb wrote:

big snip
(what does McDonalds pay these days :-)

$7.35 hr.

Not bad wages and all you have to remember is (1) "Do you want fries
with that?", and (2) "did you want a large coke with that?"

Read an interesting article concerning this recently:

http://news.yahoo.com/wanted-mcdonal...204344742.html

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Apr 16, 3:54*pm, jon_banquer wrote:

Speaking of Wieber's buddies, perhaps Wieber can explain why his buddy
J.B. Slocumb started posting to Usenet in Jan 2013. J.B. Slocomb
appears to be little more than a Wieber controlled sock puppet.

How did you figure out that he only started posting to Usenet in Jan
2013?

Dan

On Apr 16, 4:26*pm, " wrote:
On Apr 16, 3:54*pm, jon_banquer wrote:

Speaking of Wieber's buddies, perhaps Wieber can explain why his buddy
J.B. Slocumb started posting to Usenet in Jan 2013. J.B. Slocomb
appears to be little more than a Wieber controlled sock puppet.

How did you figure out that he only started posting to Usenet in Jan
2013?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan

How do you think I figured it out?

Who do I use to post to Usenet since I have said I don't use a
newsgroup service?

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 16:26:17 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Apr 16, 3:54Â*pm, jon_banquer wrote:

Speaking of Wieber's buddies, perhaps Wieber can explain why his buddy
J.B. Slocumb started posting to Usenet in Jan 2013. J.B. Slocomb
appears to be little more than a Wieber controlled sock puppet.

How did you figure out that he only started posting to Usenet in Jan
2013?

Dan

Oh this is going to be very very good.....

VBG

Gunner

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 16:52:24 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 16:26:17 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Apr 16, 3:54*pm, jon_banquer wrote:

Speaking of Wieber's buddies, perhaps Wieber can explain why his buddy
J.B. Slocumb started posting to Usenet in Jan 2013. J.B. Slocomb
appears to be little more than a Wieber controlled sock puppet.

How did you figure out that he only started posting to Usenet in Jan
2013?

Dan

Oh this is going to be very very good.....

VBG

Gunner


I actually couldn't remember the first time I posted but google's
records show that the last time I changed my password was 3 years
ago..... I must have been here before that.

But I suppose that one has to consider the source...

--
Cheers,

John B.