Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?

Bad idea. If the stuff worked, the engineers would have used it, back when.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
news Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?

On Thu, 24 May 2012 23:45:20 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?

If it were that simple, R22 would be getting changed out all over.
Pretty sure you got to have a compressor designed for the new stuff.

if you like being insulted, go ask over on alt.hvac (don't have theNG
name quite right)

Karl

Karl Townsend fired this volley in
:

if you like being insulted, go ask over on alt.hvac (don't have theNG
name quite right)


Yeah. They feel pretty important about themselves over there, even though,
as a lot, they probably don't know much more about AC than the average home
shop mechanic. There are a few experts there, if you can get them to talk
about anything except "take it to an expert".

On the R22 thing... switch to propane, if you're doing it yourself.

Lloyd

On Fri, 25 May 2012 05:54:58 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:


On the R22 thing... switch to propane, if you're doing it yourself.

LPG works well in car a/c

Alan

wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2012 05:54:58 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

On the R22 thing... switch to propane, if you're doing it yourself.

LPG works well in car a/c

Alan

Yep, right up until it goes BOOM... Oh and the minor point of it being
illegal in the US.

Here is a controlled test that is going to demonstrate just how safe
propane is. These guys are ones who tell you how safe it is and that
leaks aren't a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djtow...hannel&list=UL


http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html


--
Steve W.

"Steve W." fired this volley in news:jpo0im$eg$1
@dont-email.me:

Yep, right up until it goes BOOM..

Consider how uber-cautious the Germans are. Then consider that most of
their small AC systems are now on propane.

And consider how dangerous CFCs and HFCs are in contact with flame.

I'd go for something that only produces CO2 and water when burnt.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
Karl Townsend fired this volley in
:

if you like being insulted, go ask over on alt.hvac (don't have theNG
name quite right)


Yeah. They feel pretty important about themselves over there, even
though,
as a lot, they probably don't know much more about AC than the average
home
shop mechanic. There are a few experts there, if you can get them to talk
about anything except "take it to an expert".

On the R22 thing... switch to propane, if you're doing it yourself.



Google R290

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On May 24, 10:45 pm, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:
Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?

First thing to do is fix the leak, you asshole.

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley
in :


Google R290

Yeah, but you miss the point. Since it's a "refrigerant", you can't buy it
without the EPA certificate.

You can get dry propane all day long, elsewhere.

LLoyd

On Fri, 25 May 2012 08:31:13 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On May 24, 10:45 pm, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:
Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?

First thing to do is fix the leak, you asshole.

Who said it leaked? Mabee he wanted to improve the efficiency of the
system??? Or mabee, like me, he relocated the unit and needed to
empty it in order to make the move. Now that it is all sealed up and
evacuated he's wondering, "do I, or don't I??"

On Fri, 25 May 2012 06:38:08 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Bad idea. If the stuff worked, the engineers would have used it, back when.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus


Except id didn'r exist "back then". My unit was 38 years old.
www.lds.org
.

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
news Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?

wrote in message ...
On Fri, 25 May 2012 08:31:13 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
....
On May 24, 10:45 pm, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:
Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?

First thing to do is fix the leak, you asshole.

Who said it leaked?

It was empty a year or so ago, and prior to that, it hadn't been run for a few years, because the compressor "wouldn't start"...

--he posted as much at that time...

Mabee he wanted to improve the efficiency of the system???

Yeah sure thing, pal....

Or mabee, like me, he relocated the unit and needed to empty it in order to make the move.

He couldn't figure out how to pump it down even if his life depended on it.

Now that it is all sealed up and evacuated he's wondering, "do I, or don't I??"

So you really think the cheapskate owns a vacuum pump and also knows how to braze ?

--because if he did, he wouldn't be asking about r22 substitutes in the first place...

It's a *leaker*, and currently, it's inoperable because the LP safety has (again) tripped.

Guaranteed.

Tom Gardner wrote:

Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?
Change over, as in replacing the whole system, or change over as
in just putting a different refrigerant in the same system?
The former is expensive, the latter almost certainly won't work.
Each system is designed for a specific refrigerant, and with a few
exceptions, can't be converted to use a different gas. The thermodynamic
properties of the different gases are very different, requiring different
compressor displacement and compression ratio, as well as often changing
lube oil.

Jon

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70...
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley
in :


Google R290

Yeah, but you miss the point. Since it's a "refrigerant"


Apparently, you miss my point

Which is if you want to learn all about using propane as a refrigerant, then Google R290


you can't buy it without the EPA certificate.


True, but you can't legally put propane into your heat pump without the certificate either/


You can get dry propane all day long, elsewhere.


I wouldn't necessarily guarantee it's going to be dry, although there's easy ways to get around that.

On May 25, 5:50*am, Karl Townsend
wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2012 23:45:20 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:
Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?

If it were that simple, R22 would be getting changed out all over.
Pretty sure you got to have a compressor designed for the new stuff.

if you like being insulted, go ask over on alt.hvac (don't have theNG
name quite right)

Karl

Tom will fit right in.

TMT

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:_sWdncAUlqsXdSLSnZ2dnUVZ_sgAAAAA@scnresearch. com:

I wouldn't necessarily guarantee it's going to be dry, although
there's easy ways to get around that.

Yup, like a filter-dryer in series with your filling lines. Cheap
insurance.

BTW... you can't do the exchange of refrigerants _in_commerce_. There's
a big difference between 'hacking' your own home-brew solutions, and
doing it for someone else, for money.

FWIW (and fireworks making is a good example) there are lots of things
that are strictly illegal if done without a license "in commerce", but
are perfectly legal to do as an unlicensed amateur working for your own
enjoyment and entertainment. Did you know that in most locales, you can
_legally_ build fireworks? You can't transport them off the property,
but that's another issue.

LLoyd


LLoyd

On Fri, 25 May 2012 14:43:56 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?
Change over, as in replacing the whole system, or change over as
in just putting a different refrigerant in the same system?
The former is expensive, the latter almost certainly won't work.
Each system is designed for a specific refrigerant, and with a few
exceptions, can't be converted to use a different gas. The thermodynamic
properties of the different gases are very different, requiring different
compressor displacement and compression ratio, as well as often changing
lube oil.

Jon
Switching MOST automotive systems from R12 to R134A works quite well
with no changes to the system, except blowing out the old oil and
installing the compatible oil.

There are many "universal" replacement refrigerants out there that
work, with varying efficiency and satisfaction, in different systems.

Many refrigeration systems are NOT optimized for the refrigerant
originally installed - so a somewhat different gas MAY actually work
better. It may also work somewhat worse. Or even a LOT worse (or
better).

It is a crap-shoot using a non-specified gas - but it really isn't
rocket science. If it is marketed as a replacement for R20, it LIKELY
will work reasonably close to what the R20 did. You do want the vapur
pressure, specific heat, etc to be reasonably close, which is why you
don't exchange R12 for R20, or vice versa.

Steve W. wrote:
Yep, right up until it goes BOOM... Oh and the minor point of it being
illegal in the US.

Here is a controlled test that is going to demonstrate just how safe
propane is. ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djtow...hannel&list=UL
....

****ing idiots!! Unbelievable! I am not a cautious guy and regularly
cause people around me to cringe at stuff I do. But NO WAY would I
spray a flammable gas in a closed car and strike a match!!

Bob

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70...
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:_sWdncAUlqsXdSLSnZ2dnUVZ_sgAAAAA@scnresearch. com:

I wouldn't necessarily guarantee it's going to be dry, although
there's easy ways to get around that.

Yup, like a filter-dryer in series with your filling lines. Cheap
insurance.

BTW... you can't do the exchange of refrigerants _in_commerce_. There's
a big difference between 'hacking' your own home-brew solutions, and
doing it for someone else, for money.


Not last time I checked.


FWIW (and fireworks making is a good example) there are lots of things
that are strictly illegal if done without a license "in commerce", but
are perfectly legal to do as an unlicensed amateur working for your own
enjoyment and entertainment. Did you know that in most locales, you can

Been there done it--still got most of a 50lb bucket of chinese perc and a double closet full of various other **** to prove it.

Fuels are in the left compartment, oxidizers on the right.

_legally_ build fireworks? You can't transport them off the property,
but that's another issue.

Last I checked, legal to transport here so long as it's not a "finished firework" which means I suppose that you're good to go even with several tons in a ready box, as long as there's no fuze attached...

Downside is, the police and fire marshalls can (and usually do) confiscate on a whim, and can ( and usually do) immediately destroy it leaving you with little in the way of evidence to prove that you were indeed operating inside the law.

LLoyd

On Fri, 25 May 2012 12:39:05 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


wrote in message ...
On Fri, 25 May 2012 08:31:13 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On May 24, 10:45 pm, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:
Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?

First thing to do is fix the leak, you asshole.

Who said it leaked?

It was empty a year or so ago, and prior to that, it hadn't been run for a few years, because the compressor "wouldn't start"...

--he posted as much at that time...

Mabee he wanted to improve the efficiency of the system???

Yeah sure thing, pal....

Or mabee, like me, he relocated the unit and needed to empty it in order to make the move.

He couldn't figure out how to pump it down even if his life depended on it.

Now that it is all sealed up and evacuated he's wondering, "do I, or don't I??"

So you really think the cheapskate owns a vacuum pump and also knows how to braze ?

--because if he did, he wouldn't be asking about r22 substitutes in the first place...

It's a *leaker*, and currently, it's inoperable because the LP safety has (again) tripped.

Guaranteed.

OK - I did not receive the first post, indicating it was low on gas.
I actually CHANGED my compressor unit - using the old one to draw the
new one down, after removing the original R20 from the old system
using the new compressor and an old (pre-anti-fill-valve) R20 tank to
hold the old gas. Had my nephew come and gas it up with some fresh R20
when I was all done. I had done the "draw down" test - he pressure
tested with Nitrogen to be sure "the old goat" had gotten it tight
before drawing it down again and doing the fill.

That SilPhos 15 rod works a lot easier than solder!!!. Self fluxing on
copper, and it just flows like honey!!

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:utCdnU3Ls4SjZSLSnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@scnresearch. com:

Last I checked, legal to transport here so long as it's not a
"finished firework" which means I suppose that you're good to go even
with several tons in a ready box, as long as there's no fuze
attached...

Nope. Changes, partly in ATF regs, but mostly in
_rulings_by_the_director_ over the last two-three years have made it
illegal for anyone to transport over a public road for any purpose unless
licensed by ATF; you cannot even hire a properly-equipped-and-licensed
lading company to do it unless you have both the ATF license AND proper
EX numbers -- even if not in commerce. You _can_ "give" them to a
licensee for transport, but then he cannot 'convey' them back to you
under any circumstances. This was intentional, and not an artifact of
the rulings.

I'm in that business... in this, you can believe me (even if you don't
on the rest).

(Chinese perc? Oh please... what about the Swedish stuff? The Chinese
HP-140 is loaded with a color-contaminating anti-cake that wrecks just
about any blue you try to make with it. And the HP-140 is their "high
purity" version! G)

Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70:

transport over a public road

I should have added, "any listed explosive", and they've changed the
definition of "public highway" to mean _any_ roadway, path, or easement
that is not gated, locked, and unavailable to any public conveyance at
any time.

In other words... a two-tire sand track across a pasture is a "public
highway" unless it's gated and locked, and nobody has a key except for
you and your "employee possessors". We lost the use of a cross-pasture
road at our magazine site for several weeks until we convinced the owner
of the land to put up a code-key gate, which we had to pay for.

Seriously... don't get caught by this one, if you ever intend to make any
other amateur goods. They will now fry you, really badly.

LLoyd

On May 25, 10:31*am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...
On May 24, 10:45 pm, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?

First thing to do is fix the leak, you asshole.

So do you put a cork in the asshole?

If so, that will be a really BIG cork for Tom.

LOL

TMT

On May 25, 2:43*pm, Jon Elson wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:
Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?

Change over, as in replacing the whole system, or change over as
in just putting a different refrigerant in the same system?
The former is expensive, the latter almost certainly won't work.
Each system is designed for a specific refrigerant, and with a few
exceptions, can't be converted to use a different gas. *The thermodynamic
properties of the different gases are very different, requiring different
compressor displacement and compression ratio, as well as often changing
lube oil.

Jon

Well said Jon.

TMT

On 5/25/2012 5:26 PM, wrote:
OK - I did not receive the first post, indicating it was low on gas.

IT ISN'T, TARD-BOY LIES!

I actually CHANGED my compressor unit - using the old one to draw the
new one down, after removing the original R20 from the old system
using the new compressor and an old (pre-anti-fill-valve) R20 tank to
hold the old gas. Had my nephew come and gas it up with some fresh R20
when I was all done. I had done the "draw down" test - he pressure
tested with Nitrogen to be sure "the old goat" had gotten it tight
before drawing it down again and doing the fill.

That SilPhos 15 rod works a lot easier than solder!!!. Self fluxing on
copper, and it just flows like honey!!
\

Don't bother with the fool. I have handed him his ass so many times,
he's so ****ed he'll lie about anything. No leaks! I did have a small
leak last year due to a leaky Schreader valve, it took 18 oz of R-22.

I'm interested in the energy savings of 40% or better...if that's real

On 5/25/2012 6:50 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2012 23:45:20 -0400, Tom GardnerMars@Tacks wrote:

Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?

If it were that simple, R22 would be getting changed out all over.
Pretty sure you got to have a compressor designed for the new stuff.

if you like being insulted, go ask over on alt.hvac (don't have theNG
name quite right)

Karl


THAT'S why I ask, when it sounds too good to be true.....

On 5/25/2012 6:54 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Karl fired this volley in
:

if you like being insulted, go ask over on alt.hvac (don't have theNG
name quite right)


Yeah. They feel pretty important about themselves over there, even though,
as a lot, they probably don't know much more about AC than the average home
shop mechanic. There are a few experts there, if you can get them to talk
about anything except "take it to an expert".

On the R22 thing... switch to propane, if you're doing it yourself.

Lloyd

I've heard about using propane. AND I've heard the new refrigerants are
similarly petro-based and flammable. Is there an energy savings?

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Steve W." fired this volley in news:jpo0im$eg$1
@dont-email.me:

Yep, right up until it goes BOOM..

Consider how uber-cautious the Germans are. Then consider that most of
their small AC systems are now on propane.

And consider how dangerous CFCs and HFCs are in contact with flame.

I'd go for something that only produces CO2 and water when burnt.

LLoyd

Guess you didn't bother watching the "engineer" in the video blow the
car up. This same guy is pushing just how safe propane is in vehicles as
a replacement for other refrigerants. He has held a LOT of seminars and
this video was shot to demonstrate how it was IMPOSSIBLE for any type of
flame or ignition to occur in vehicle use.

--
Steve W.

"Steve W." fired this volley in news:jpp37b$ukf$1
@dont-email.me:

Guess you didn't bother watching the "engineer" in the video blow the
car up. This same guy is pushing just how safe propane is in vehicles
as
a replacement for other refrigerants. He has held a LOT of seminars and
this video was shot to demonstrate how it was IMPOSSIBLE for any type
of
flame or ignition to occur in vehicle use.


Guess I don't have to watch to know how stupid people can be. Cars are
full of potential ignition sources.

Anyone who thinks it's "impossible" for an ignition to occur in a
passenger car hasn't spent much time in a car, or watching all the burnt
wrecks along-side major highways.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70:

transport over a public road

I should have added, "any listed explosive", and they've changed the
definition of "public highway" to mean _any_ roadway, path, or easement
that is not gated, locked, and unavailable to any public conveyance at
any time.

In other words... a two-tire sand track across a pasture is a "public
highway" unless it's gated and locked, and nobody has a key except for
you and your "employee possessors". We lost the use of a cross-pasture
road at our magazine site for several weeks until we convinced the owner
of the land to put up a code-key gate, which we had to pay for.

Seriously... don't get caught by this one, if you ever intend to make any
other amateur goods. They will now fry you, really badly.



Well, note that I had said "last I checked"....which probably was ~5 years ago if not 10

On 5/25/2012 3:43 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?
Change over, as in replacing the whole system, or change over as
in just putting a different refrigerant in the same system?
The former is expensive, the latter almost certainly won't work.
Each system is designed for a specific refrigerant, and with a few
exceptions, can't be converted to use a different gas. The thermodynamic
properties of the different gases are very different, requiring different
compressor displacement and compression ratio, as well as often changing
lube oil.

Jon

I was thinking of just replacing the refrigerant *IF* an energy savings
would justify it. The 40% they state is mighty attractive! My system
is in good shape and should last a little while yet. I sell to a HVAC
supply outfit and am able to purchase from them. I imagine I'll be
replacing the unit in a number of years so I'll keep abreast of what to
do and what to buy.

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:vdWdnQsNWeaDiF3SnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@scnresearch. com:

Well, note that I had said "last I checked"....which probably was ~5
years ago if not 10

And whether we disagree on things or not, I wouldn't want you to get
"burned" doing something that was completely legal five years ago, and is
now a felony.

LLoyd

On Fri, 25 May 2012 19:03:15 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:vdWdnQsNWeaDiF3SnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@scnresearch .com:

Well, note that I had said "last I checked"....which probably was ~5
years ago if not 10

And whether we disagree on things or not, I wouldn't want you to get
"burned" doing something that was completely legal five years ago, and is
now a felony.

And I'll bet Homeland Security is just raring to go to prosecute you
as a terrorist for any infringements, too, aren't they? sigh

--
When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake.
-- Stephanie Barron
(Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...

I should have added, "any listed explosive"


Out of curiosity, I downloaded the current list:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011...2011-26963.pdf

Noteworthy that included, is the rather vague description "pyrotechnic
compositions".

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:vdWdnQsNWeaDiF3SnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@scnresearch. com:

Well, note that I had said "last I checked"....which probably was ~5
years ago if not 10

And whether we disagree on things or not, I wouldn't want you to get
"burned" doing something that was completely legal five years ago, and is
now a felony.


Probably I should stop driving around town with several scuba tanks full of
flash powder in my trunk then....

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 May 2012 12:39:05 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 25 May 2012 08:31:13 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On May 24, 10:45 pm, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:
Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced
electricity usage?

First thing to do is fix the leak, you asshole.

Who said it leaked?

It was empty a year or so ago, and prior to that, it hadn't been run for a
few years, because the compressor "wouldn't start"...

--he posted as much at that time...

Mabee he wanted to improve the efficiency of the system???

Yeah sure thing, pal....

Or mabee, like me, he relocated the unit and needed to empty it in
order to make the move.

He couldn't figure out how to pump it down even if his life depended on
it.

Now that it is all sealed up and evacuated he's wondering, "do I, or
don't I??"

So you really think the cheapskate owns a vacuum pump and also knows how
to braze ?

--because if he did, he wouldn't be asking about r22 substitutes in the
first place...

It's a *leaker*, and currently, it's inoperable because the LP safety has
(again) tripped.

Guaranteed.

OK - I did not receive the first post, indicating it was low on gas.
I actually CHANGED my compressor unit - using the old one to draw the
new one down, after removing the original R20 from the old system
using the new compressor and an old (pre-anti-fill-valve) R20 tank to
hold the old gas. Had my nephew come and gas it up with some fresh R20
when I was all done. I had done the "draw down" test - he pressure
tested with Nitrogen to be sure "the old goat" had gotten it tight
before drawing it down again and doing the fill.

That SilPhos 15 rod works a lot easier than solder!!!. Self fluxing on
copper, and it just flows like honey!!

I've got a package unit in theboneyard with burned out scroll, acid kit
tests clean and so it'd be a fairly straight forward job.

Never seems to be enough time though, and since I picked up a replacement
off craigslist for a song...

Tom Gardner wrote:



I was thinking of just replacing the refrigerant *IF* an energy savings
would justify it. The 40% they state is mighty attractive! My system
is in good shape and should last a little while yet. I sell to a HVAC
supply outfit and am able to purchase from them. I imagine I'll be
replacing the unit in a number of years so I'll keep abreast of what to
do and what to buy.
40%?? VERRRY unlikely. You can swap to Propane, it will improve
efficiency by MAYBE 5% or so. Not so good if you spring a leak in
the evaporator coil. Next time the A/C starts up, the furnace
blows apart like a grenade.

There may be some other mixtures that are also available as drop-in
replacements, but anybody that claims they can get a 40% efficiency
boost without changing anything else in the system is selling snake
oil!

Also, many home A/C systems, especially older ones, use capillary
tube metering, and any change in heat capacity, saturation curve
or liquid viscosity will end up throwing the metering of liquid
into the evaporator off. Well, of course, cap tube systems don't
really meter the liquid well except at one set of temperatures,
anyway. And, a system with a thermal expansion valve needs to
have the same fluid in the sensing bulb as the refrigerant, so
changing the refrig. in those systems can lead to major malfunctions.
The worst would be "slugging", where a huge load of liquid pools in
the evaporator and is then slugged into the compressor, possibly
destroying it the first time this happens.

Jon

Tom Gardner wrote:



I've heard about using propane. AND I've heard the new refrigerants are
similarly petro-based and flammable. Is there an energy savings?
Really, different refrigerants don't have vastly different properties
in respect to energy required to move X BTUs from temp 1 to temp 2.
There are differences, and Propane is a bit better, but the difference
is pretty small. I used to have a thermodynamic calculator program
where you entered all the parameters (temp 1, temp 2, heat load,
compressor displacement, and refrigerant) and it would calculate the
HP required. It did show Propane to be a bit better than R-22.
But, the possibility of a major leak indoors blowing my house up
for the small improvement in efficiency made it seem like a bad idea.

Now, the newer A/C units achieve all their higher efficiency through
other means. They often have variable-speed compressors, scroll
compressors are a bit more efficient than pistons and valves,
they almost all use thermal expansion valves instead of capillary
metering, and they have larger condenser cores so that the condensing
temperature is a lot lower. All of this helps improve the
efficiency. just cleaning out the condenser core with a garden
hose can reduce power consumption 20% or more, and of course can bring
a system back to life when it is packed with cottonwood fuzz.
I clean my condensers once a year, for sure.

So, if you think the secret of the high SEER ratings on newer units
is due to the refrigerant used, it is practically achieved DESPITE
the refrigerants they have to use due to the ozone problem.

Jon

On 5/26/2012 12:30 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:



I was thinking of just replacing the refrigerant *IF* an energy savings
would justify it. The 40% they state is mighty attractive! My system
is in good shape and should last a little while yet. I sell to a HVAC
supply outfit and am able to purchase from them. I imagine I'll be
replacing the unit in a number of years so I'll keep abreast of what to
do and what to buy.
40%?? VERRRY unlikely. You can swap to Propane, it will improve
efficiency by MAYBE 5% or so. Not so good if you spring a leak in
the evaporator coil. Next time the A/C starts up, the furnace
blows apart like a grenade.

There may be some other mixtures that are also available as drop-in
replacements, but anybody that claims they can get a 40% efficiency
boost without changing anything else in the system is selling snake
oil!

Also, many home A/C systems, especially older ones, use capillary
tube metering, and any change in heat capacity, saturation curve
or liquid viscosity will end up throwing the metering of liquid
into the evaporator off. Well, of course, cap tube systems don't
really meter the liquid well except at one set of temperatures,
anyway. And, a system with a thermal expansion valve needs to
have the same fluid in the sensing bulb as the refrigerant, so
changing the refrig. in those systems can lead to major malfunctions.
The worst would be "slugging", where a huge load of liquid pools in
the evaporator and is then slugged into the compressor, possibly
destroying it the first time this happens.

Jon

Not good! Unfortunately I'm stuck with a heat pump as there is no
natural gas in this all-electric neighborhood. Maybe, by the time this
unit goes, something much better will be available. Thanks for the info!