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Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants
that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
Bad idea. If the stuff worked, the engineers would have used it, back when.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message ... Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On Thu, 24 May 2012 23:45:20 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:
Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? If it were that simple, R22 would be getting changed out all over. Pretty sure you got to have a compressor designed for the new stuff. if you like being insulted, go ask over on alt.hvac (don't have theNG name quite right) Karl |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
Karl Townsend fired this volley in
: if you like being insulted, go ask over on alt.hvac (don't have theNG name quite right) Yeah. They feel pretty important about themselves over there, even though, as a lot, they probably don't know much more about AC than the average home shop mechanic. There are a few experts there, if you can get them to talk about anything except "take it to an expert". On the R22 thing... switch to propane, if you're doing it yourself. Lloyd |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On Fri, 25 May 2012 05:54:58 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: On the R22 thing... switch to propane, if you're doing it yourself. LPG works well in car a/c Alan |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"Steve W." fired this volley in news:jpo0im$eg$1
@dont-email.me: Yep, right up until it goes BOOM.. Consider how uber-cautious the Germans are. Then consider that most of their small AC systems are now on propane. And consider how dangerous CFCs and HFCs are in contact with flame. I'd go for something that only produces CO2 and water when burnt. LLoyd |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... Karl Townsend fired this volley in : if you like being insulted, go ask over on alt.hvac (don't have theNG name quite right) Yeah. They feel pretty important about themselves over there, even though, as a lot, they probably don't know much more about AC than the average home shop mechanic. There are a few experts there, if you can get them to talk about anything except "take it to an expert". On the R22 thing... switch to propane, if you're doing it yourself. Google R290 |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message ... On May 24, 10:45 pm, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote: Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? First thing to do is fix the leak, you asshole. |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley
in : Google R290 Yeah, but you miss the point. Since it's a "refrigerant", you can't buy it without the EPA certificate. You can get dry propane all day long, elsewhere. LLoyd |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On Fri, 25 May 2012 08:31:13 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message ... On May 24, 10:45 pm, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote: Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? First thing to do is fix the leak, you asshole. Who said it leaked? Mabee he wanted to improve the efficiency of the system??? Or mabee, like me, he relocated the unit and needed to empty it in order to make the move. Now that it is all sealed up and evacuated he's wondering, "do I, or don't I??" |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On Fri, 25 May 2012 06:38:08 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: Bad idea. If the stuff worked, the engineers would have used it, back when. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus Except id didn'r exist "back then". My unit was 38 years old. www.lds.org . "Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message m... Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
wrote in message ... On Fri, 25 May 2012 08:31:13 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message .... On May 24, 10:45 pm, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote: Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? First thing to do is fix the leak, you asshole. Who said it leaked? It was empty a year or so ago, and prior to that, it hadn't been run for a few years, because the compressor "wouldn't start"... --he posted as much at that time... Mabee he wanted to improve the efficiency of the system??? Yeah sure thing, pal.... Or mabee, like me, he relocated the unit and needed to empty it in order to make the move. He couldn't figure out how to pump it down even if his life depended on it. Now that it is all sealed up and evacuated he's wondering, "do I, or don't I??" So you really think the cheapskate owns a vacuum pump and also knows how to braze ? --because if he did, he wouldn't be asking about r22 substitutes in the first place... It's a *leaker*, and currently, it's inoperable because the LP safety has (again) tripped. Guaranteed. |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
Tom Gardner wrote:
Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? Change over, as in replacing the whole system, or change over as in just putting a different refrigerant in the same system? The former is expensive, the latter almost certainly won't work. Each system is designed for a specific refrigerant, and with a few exceptions, can't be converted to use a different gas. The thermodynamic properties of the different gases are very different, requiring different compressor displacement and compression ratio, as well as often changing lube oil. Jon |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... "PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in : Google R290 Yeah, but you miss the point. Since it's a "refrigerant" Apparently, you miss my point Which is if you want to learn all about using propane as a refrigerant, then Google R290 you can't buy it without the EPA certificate. True, but you can't legally put propane into your heat pump without the certificate either/ You can get dry propane all day long, elsewhere. I wouldn't necessarily guarantee it's going to be dry, although there's easy ways to get around that. |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On May 25, 5:50*am, Karl Townsend
wrote: On Thu, 24 May 2012 23:45:20 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote: Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? If it were that simple, R22 would be getting changed out all over. Pretty sure you got to have a compressor designed for the new stuff. if you like being insulted, go ask over on alt.hvac (don't have theNG name quite right) Karl Tom will fit right in. TMT |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:_sWdncAUlqsXdSLSnZ2dnUVZ_sgAAAAA@scnresearch. com: I wouldn't necessarily guarantee it's going to be dry, although there's easy ways to get around that. Yup, like a filter-dryer in series with your filling lines. Cheap insurance. BTW... you can't do the exchange of refrigerants _in_commerce_. There's a big difference between 'hacking' your own home-brew solutions, and doing it for someone else, for money. FWIW (and fireworks making is a good example) there are lots of things that are strictly illegal if done without a license "in commerce", but are perfectly legal to do as an unlicensed amateur working for your own enjoyment and entertainment. Did you know that in most locales, you can _legally_ build fireworks? You can't transport them off the property, but that's another issue. LLoyd LLoyd |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On Fri, 25 May 2012 14:43:56 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote: Tom Gardner wrote: Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? Change over, as in replacing the whole system, or change over as in just putting a different refrigerant in the same system? The former is expensive, the latter almost certainly won't work. Each system is designed for a specific refrigerant, and with a few exceptions, can't be converted to use a different gas. The thermodynamic properties of the different gases are very different, requiring different compressor displacement and compression ratio, as well as often changing lube oil. Jon Switching MOST automotive systems from R12 to R134A works quite well with no changes to the system, except blowing out the old oil and installing the compatible oil. There are many "universal" replacement refrigerants out there that work, with varying efficiency and satisfaction, in different systems. Many refrigeration systems are NOT optimized for the refrigerant originally installed - so a somewhat different gas MAY actually work better. It may also work somewhat worse. Or even a LOT worse (or better). It is a crap-shoot using a non-specified gas - but it really isn't rocket science. If it is marketed as a replacement for R20, it LIKELY will work reasonably close to what the R20 did. You do want the vapur pressure, specific heat, etc to be reasonably close, which is why you don't exchange R12 for R20, or vice versa. |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
Steve W. wrote:
Yep, right up until it goes BOOM... Oh and the minor point of it being illegal in the US. Here is a controlled test that is going to demonstrate just how safe propane is. ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djtow...hannel&list=UL .... ****ing idiots!! Unbelievable! I am not a cautious guy and regularly cause people around me to cringe at stuff I do. But NO WAY would I spray a flammable gas in a closed car and strike a match!! Bob |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... "PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in news:_sWdncAUlqsXdSLSnZ2dnUVZ_sgAAAAA@scnresearch. com: I wouldn't necessarily guarantee it's going to be dry, although there's easy ways to get around that. Yup, like a filter-dryer in series with your filling lines. Cheap insurance. BTW... you can't do the exchange of refrigerants _in_commerce_. There's a big difference between 'hacking' your own home-brew solutions, and doing it for someone else, for money. Not last time I checked. FWIW (and fireworks making is a good example) there are lots of things that are strictly illegal if done without a license "in commerce", but are perfectly legal to do as an unlicensed amateur working for your own enjoyment and entertainment. Did you know that in most locales, you can Been there done it--still got most of a 50lb bucket of chinese perc and a double closet full of various other **** to prove it. Fuels are in the left compartment, oxidizers on the right. _legally_ build fireworks? You can't transport them off the property, but that's another issue. Last I checked, legal to transport here so long as it's not a "finished firework" which means I suppose that you're good to go even with several tons in a ready box, as long as there's no fuze attached... Downside is, the police and fire marshalls can (and usually do) confiscate on a whim, and can ( and usually do) immediately destroy it leaving you with little in the way of evidence to prove that you were indeed operating inside the law. LLoyd |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On Fri, 25 May 2012 12:39:05 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote: wrote in message ... On Fri, 25 May 2012 08:31:13 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message ... On May 24, 10:45 pm, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote: Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? First thing to do is fix the leak, you asshole. Who said it leaked? It was empty a year or so ago, and prior to that, it hadn't been run for a few years, because the compressor "wouldn't start"... --he posted as much at that time... Mabee he wanted to improve the efficiency of the system??? Yeah sure thing, pal.... Or mabee, like me, he relocated the unit and needed to empty it in order to make the move. He couldn't figure out how to pump it down even if his life depended on it. Now that it is all sealed up and evacuated he's wondering, "do I, or don't I??" So you really think the cheapskate owns a vacuum pump and also knows how to braze ? --because if he did, he wouldn't be asking about r22 substitutes in the first place... It's a *leaker*, and currently, it's inoperable because the LP safety has (again) tripped. Guaranteed. OK - I did not receive the first post, indicating it was low on gas. I actually CHANGED my compressor unit - using the old one to draw the new one down, after removing the original R20 from the old system using the new compressor and an old (pre-anti-fill-valve) R20 tank to hold the old gas. Had my nephew come and gas it up with some fresh R20 when I was all done. I had done the "draw down" test - he pressure tested with Nitrogen to be sure "the old goat" had gotten it tight before drawing it down again and doing the fill. That SilPhos 15 rod works a lot easier than solder!!!. Self fluxing on copper, and it just flows like honey!! |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:utCdnU3Ls4SjZSLSnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@scnresearch. com: Last I checked, legal to transport here so long as it's not a "finished firework" which means I suppose that you're good to go even with several tons in a ready box, as long as there's no fuze attached... Nope. Changes, partly in ATF regs, but mostly in _rulings_by_the_director_ over the last two-three years have made it illegal for anyone to transport over a public road for any purpose unless licensed by ATF; you cannot even hire a properly-equipped-and-licensed lading company to do it unless you have both the ATF license AND proper EX numbers -- even if not in commerce. You _can_ "give" them to a licensee for transport, but then he cannot 'convey' them back to you under any circumstances. This was intentional, and not an artifact of the rulings. I'm in that business... in this, you can believe me (even if you don't on the rest). (Chinese perc? Oh please... what about the Swedish stuff? The Chinese HP-140 is loaded with a color-contaminating anti-cake that wrecks just about any blue you try to make with it. And the HP-140 is their "high purity" version! G) Lloyd |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70: transport over a public road I should have added, "any listed explosive", and they've changed the definition of "public highway" to mean _any_ roadway, path, or easement that is not gated, locked, and unavailable to any public conveyance at any time. In other words... a two-tire sand track across a pasture is a "public highway" unless it's gated and locked, and nobody has a key except for you and your "employee possessors". We lost the use of a cross-pasture road at our magazine site for several weeks until we convinced the owner of the land to put up a code-key gate, which we had to pay for. Seriously... don't get caught by this one, if you ever intend to make any other amateur goods. They will now fry you, really badly. LLoyd |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On May 25, 10:31*am, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message ... On May 24, 10:45 pm, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote: Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? First thing to do is fix the leak, you asshole. So do you put a cork in the asshole? If so, that will be a really BIG cork for Tom. LOL TMT |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On May 25, 2:43*pm, Jon Elson wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote: Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? Change over, as in replacing the whole system, or change over as in just putting a different refrigerant in the same system? The former is expensive, the latter almost certainly won't work. Each system is designed for a specific refrigerant, and with a few exceptions, can't be converted to use a different gas. *The thermodynamic properties of the different gases are very different, requiring different compressor displacement and compression ratio, as well as often changing lube oil. Jon Well said Jon. TMT |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
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Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On 5/25/2012 6:50 AM, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2012 23:45:20 -0400, Tom GardnerMars@Tacks wrote: Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? If it were that simple, R22 would be getting changed out all over. Pretty sure you got to have a compressor designed for the new stuff. if you like being insulted, go ask over on alt.hvac (don't have theNG name quite right) Karl THAT'S why I ask, when it sounds too good to be true..... |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On 5/25/2012 6:54 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Karl fired this volley in : if you like being insulted, go ask over on alt.hvac (don't have theNG name quite right) Yeah. They feel pretty important about themselves over there, even though, as a lot, they probably don't know much more about AC than the average home shop mechanic. There are a few experts there, if you can get them to talk about anything except "take it to an expert". On the R22 thing... switch to propane, if you're doing it yourself. Lloyd I've heard about using propane. AND I've heard the new refrigerants are similarly petro-based and flammable. Is there an energy savings? |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Steve W." fired this volley in news:jpo0im$eg$1 @dont-email.me: Yep, right up until it goes BOOM.. Consider how uber-cautious the Germans are. Then consider that most of their small AC systems are now on propane. And consider how dangerous CFCs and HFCs are in contact with flame. I'd go for something that only produces CO2 and water when burnt. LLoyd Guess you didn't bother watching the "engineer" in the video blow the car up. This same guy is pushing just how safe propane is in vehicles as a replacement for other refrigerants. He has held a LOT of seminars and this video was shot to demonstrate how it was IMPOSSIBLE for any type of flame or ignition to occur in vehicle use. -- Steve W. |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"Steve W." fired this volley in news:jpp37b$ukf$1
@dont-email.me: Guess you didn't bother watching the "engineer" in the video blow the car up. This same guy is pushing just how safe propane is in vehicles as a replacement for other refrigerants. He has held a LOT of seminars and this video was shot to demonstrate how it was IMPOSSIBLE for any type of flame or ignition to occur in vehicle use. Guess I don't have to watch to know how stupid people can be. Cars are full of potential ignition sources. Anyone who thinks it's "impossible" for an ignition to occur in a passenger car hasn't spent much time in a car, or watching all the burnt wrecks along-side major highways. LLoyd |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in . 3.70: transport over a public road I should have added, "any listed explosive", and they've changed the definition of "public highway" to mean _any_ roadway, path, or easement that is not gated, locked, and unavailable to any public conveyance at any time. In other words... a two-tire sand track across a pasture is a "public highway" unless it's gated and locked, and nobody has a key except for you and your "employee possessors". We lost the use of a cross-pasture road at our magazine site for several weeks until we convinced the owner of the land to put up a code-key gate, which we had to pay for. Seriously... don't get caught by this one, if you ever intend to make any other amateur goods. They will now fry you, really badly. Well, note that I had said "last I checked"....which probably was ~5 years ago if not 10 |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On 5/25/2012 3:43 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote: Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? Change over, as in replacing the whole system, or change over as in just putting a different refrigerant in the same system? The former is expensive, the latter almost certainly won't work. Each system is designed for a specific refrigerant, and with a few exceptions, can't be converted to use a different gas. The thermodynamic properties of the different gases are very different, requiring different compressor displacement and compression ratio, as well as often changing lube oil. Jon I was thinking of just replacing the refrigerant *IF* an energy savings would justify it. The 40% they state is mighty attractive! My system is in good shape and should last a little while yet. I sell to a HVAC supply outfit and am able to purchase from them. I imagine I'll be replacing the unit in a number of years so I'll keep abreast of what to do and what to buy. |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in
news:vdWdnQsNWeaDiF3SnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@scnresearch. com: Well, note that I had said "last I checked"....which probably was ~5 years ago if not 10 And whether we disagree on things or not, I wouldn't want you to get "burned" doing something that was completely legal five years ago, and is now a felony. LLoyd |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On Fri, 25 May 2012 19:03:15 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: "PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in news:vdWdnQsNWeaDiF3SnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@scnresearch .com: Well, note that I had said "last I checked"....which probably was ~5 years ago if not 10 And whether we disagree on things or not, I wouldn't want you to get "burned" doing something that was completely legal five years ago, and is now a felony. And I'll bet Homeland Security is just raring to go to prosecute you as a terrorist for any infringements, too, aren't they? sigh -- When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake. -- Stephanie Barron (Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?) |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... I should have added, "any listed explosive" Out of curiosity, I downloaded the current list: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011...2011-26963.pdf Noteworthy that included, is the rather vague description "pyrotechnic compositions". |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... "PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley in news:vdWdnQsNWeaDiF3SnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@scnresearch. com: Well, note that I had said "last I checked"....which probably was ~5 years ago if not 10 And whether we disagree on things or not, I wouldn't want you to get "burned" doing something that was completely legal five years ago, and is now a felony. Probably I should stop driving around town with several scuba tanks full of flash powder in my trunk then.... |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
wrote in message ... On Fri, 25 May 2012 12:39:05 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Fri, 25 May 2012 08:31:13 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT" wrote: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message ... On May 24, 10:45 pm, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote: Is it a good or bad idea to change over to one of the new refrigerants that claim lower head pressure, cooler air and substantially reduced electricity usage? First thing to do is fix the leak, you asshole. Who said it leaked? It was empty a year or so ago, and prior to that, it hadn't been run for a few years, because the compressor "wouldn't start"... --he posted as much at that time... Mabee he wanted to improve the efficiency of the system??? Yeah sure thing, pal.... Or mabee, like me, he relocated the unit and needed to empty it in order to make the move. He couldn't figure out how to pump it down even if his life depended on it. Now that it is all sealed up and evacuated he's wondering, "do I, or don't I??" So you really think the cheapskate owns a vacuum pump and also knows how to braze ? --because if he did, he wouldn't be asking about r22 substitutes in the first place... It's a *leaker*, and currently, it's inoperable because the LP safety has (again) tripped. Guaranteed. OK - I did not receive the first post, indicating it was low on gas. I actually CHANGED my compressor unit - using the old one to draw the new one down, after removing the original R20 from the old system using the new compressor and an old (pre-anti-fill-valve) R20 tank to hold the old gas. Had my nephew come and gas it up with some fresh R20 when I was all done. I had done the "draw down" test - he pressure tested with Nitrogen to be sure "the old goat" had gotten it tight before drawing it down again and doing the fill. That SilPhos 15 rod works a lot easier than solder!!!. Self fluxing on copper, and it just flows like honey!! I've got a package unit in theboneyard with burned out scroll, acid kit tests clean and so it'd be a fairly straight forward job. Never seems to be enough time though, and since I picked up a replacement off craigslist for a song... |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
Tom Gardner wrote:
I was thinking of just replacing the refrigerant *IF* an energy savings would justify it. The 40% they state is mighty attractive! My system is in good shape and should last a little while yet. I sell to a HVAC supply outfit and am able to purchase from them. I imagine I'll be replacing the unit in a number of years so I'll keep abreast of what to do and what to buy. 40%?? VERRRY unlikely. You can swap to Propane, it will improve efficiency by MAYBE 5% or so. Not so good if you spring a leak in the evaporator coil. Next time the A/C starts up, the furnace blows apart like a grenade. There may be some other mixtures that are also available as drop-in replacements, but anybody that claims they can get a 40% efficiency boost without changing anything else in the system is selling snake oil! Also, many home A/C systems, especially older ones, use capillary tube metering, and any change in heat capacity, saturation curve or liquid viscosity will end up throwing the metering of liquid into the evaporator off. Well, of course, cap tube systems don't really meter the liquid well except at one set of temperatures, anyway. And, a system with a thermal expansion valve needs to have the same fluid in the sensing bulb as the refrigerant, so changing the refrig. in those systems can lead to major malfunctions. The worst would be "slugging", where a huge load of liquid pools in the evaporator and is then slugged into the compressor, possibly destroying it the first time this happens. Jon |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
Tom Gardner wrote:
I've heard about using propane. AND I've heard the new refrigerants are similarly petro-based and flammable. Is there an energy savings? Really, different refrigerants don't have vastly different properties in respect to energy required to move X BTUs from temp 1 to temp 2. There are differences, and Propane is a bit better, but the difference is pretty small. I used to have a thermodynamic calculator program where you entered all the parameters (temp 1, temp 2, heat load, compressor displacement, and refrigerant) and it would calculate the HP required. It did show Propane to be a bit better than R-22. But, the possibility of a major leak indoors blowing my house up for the small improvement in efficiency made it seem like a bad idea. Now, the newer A/C units achieve all their higher efficiency through other means. They often have variable-speed compressors, scroll compressors are a bit more efficient than pistons and valves, they almost all use thermal expansion valves instead of capillary metering, and they have larger condenser cores so that the condensing temperature is a lot lower. All of this helps improve the efficiency. just cleaning out the condenser core with a garden hose can reduce power consumption 20% or more, and of course can bring a system back to life when it is packed with cottonwood fuzz. I clean my condensers once a year, for sure. So, if you think the secret of the high SEER ratings on newer units is due to the refrigerant used, it is practically achieved DESPITE the refrigerants they have to use due to the ozone problem. Jon |
Heat pump refrigerant change to R-22 substitute
On 5/26/2012 12:30 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote: I was thinking of just replacing the refrigerant *IF* an energy savings would justify it. The 40% they state is mighty attractive! My system is in good shape and should last a little while yet. I sell to a HVAC supply outfit and am able to purchase from them. I imagine I'll be replacing the unit in a number of years so I'll keep abreast of what to do and what to buy. 40%?? VERRRY unlikely. You can swap to Propane, it will improve efficiency by MAYBE 5% or so. Not so good if you spring a leak in the evaporator coil. Next time the A/C starts up, the furnace blows apart like a grenade. There may be some other mixtures that are also available as drop-in replacements, but anybody that claims they can get a 40% efficiency boost without changing anything else in the system is selling snake oil! Also, many home A/C systems, especially older ones, use capillary tube metering, and any change in heat capacity, saturation curve or liquid viscosity will end up throwing the metering of liquid into the evaporator off. Well, of course, cap tube systems don't really meter the liquid well except at one set of temperatures, anyway. And, a system with a thermal expansion valve needs to have the same fluid in the sensing bulb as the refrigerant, so changing the refrig. in those systems can lead to major malfunctions. The worst would be "slugging", where a huge load of liquid pools in the evaporator and is then slugged into the compressor, possibly destroying it the first time this happens. Jon Not good! Unfortunately I'm stuck with a heat pump as there is no natural gas in this all-electric neighborhood. Maybe, by the time this unit goes, something much better will be available. Thanks for the info! |
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