I haven't had the pleasure of reading one of Don's posts for quite a while.
I hope all is well with Don. Anyone?

I'm still alive but I very seldom read RCM any more. I think that the
most prolific posters do little or no metalworking. It's mostly
political slogan-slinging and Gunner-bashing.

I'm busy grieving. for my treasured. soulmate Mary that died
unexpectedly last March. It's hard work. Many fellow travelers who
have lost beloved spouses say that the second year is worse than the
first. That doesn't seem possible, but I guess I'll soon see.

I have almost no motivation to do anything useful or even necessary.
I'm hoping that longer days may revitalize me, though this has been a
"non-winter" in Minnesota.

I have wonderful support from family (2 sons) in town. Daughter Karen
came from Denver to visit for my birthday. As usual, she had a
project in mind: she made a fire ring with cutouts using my plasma
cutter. Neat!

I had three lady friends that I enjoyed a lot, no romance but good
friendships. One of them recently got ****ed at me for reasons I
still don't understand and is "taking a break" which I think might be
permanent. I miss her, am grieving a little for that loss. There's
still another, A, that is steady as rock, I continue to be amazed
with her. She is a widow, lost her hub three weeks before I lost my
Mary. She's grieving hard also but she is a remarkably strong woman.
That'll never be a romance either but it is a hell of a good
friendship, perhaps the best thing I have going in my life -- and it's
obviously good for her too.

And, she is a beautiful woman, a head-turner.

I've been taking square dancing lessons. Matter of fact, yesterday
was the last lesson, "graduation" will be next Monday night. I don't
feel ready for "graduation" but my "angel" partners (experienced
dancers) tell me I'm doing great. There are 68 calls in mainstream
square dancing and there's no time to think when the calls are made.
Some of the calls require fairly complex sequences of maneuvers or
steps. One (that I've mastered) is 32 steps in cadence with the
music.

It's a strugggle to get out of bed most days, and some days I don't
bother. Today was one of them. That isn't unusual. My friend A has
a day job but she called in sick yesterday, which was the day after
the anniversary of her late hub's death. She weathered the
anniversary day OK with family but then melted down. She says I'm
the only person she can really talk to about her profound grief. My
family is more understanding than hers, but it's certainly true that
nobody who isn't a fellow traveler (one who has lost a beloved spouse)
can even begin to comprehend.

There is no "getting over" this kind of grief. It isn't like losing
parents or even a child, because it is a permanent and irrevocable
life-change at a time in life where change is difficult. (I'm 70) My
friend A lost a previous hub and, while the 10 years she had with her
latest hub were by far the best 10 years of her life, she still talks
about the previous guy now and then. A is a decade younger than I but
I strongly doubt that she'll ever remarry. I also strongly doubt that
she'll ever discard me as a valued and special friend.

My friend Karl the apple farmer has been a continuing surprise,
amazingly supportive. That has meant a lot to me. A week of fishing
in the Florida keys in January with Karl and Julie was wonderful.

I can't yet enjoy watching TV alone, but I can enjoy it with a
companion.

I'm living one day at a time, some days are better than others. Today
I'm grieving a little for the loss of my friend H, who says she's
"taking a break" but I think that's a "bye, Don" that she lacks the
starch to say. I will miss her. She can be a challenge to be sure,
but also a lot of fun.
On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 12:36:14 +0800, "Dennis"
wrote:

I haven't had the pleasure of reading one of Don's posts for quite a while.
I hope all is well with Don. Anyone?

Don Foreman wrote:
I'm still alive but I very seldom read RCM any more. I think that the
most prolific posters do little or no metalworking. It's mostly
political slogan-slinging and Gunner-bashing.

I'm busy grieving. for my treasured. soulmate Mary that died
unexpectedly last March. It's hard work. Many fellow travelers who
have lost beloved spouses say that the second year is worse than the
first. That doesn't seem possible, but I guess I'll soon see.


Dons stuff snipped!

Great to hear you are still around the traps Don. I wondered how you were
going (I'm sure a good many other guys here wondered what you were up to as
well).

Motivation can be an elusive thing, I spend most of my time looking for it
as well - it can be especially hard if in the past you have had high levels
of motivation. Some of us are content to just let the days slide by but it
seems much more satisfying if you can do something interesting & productive
with your time.

It's great you've got a few good friends, they can be hard to find. From
what you write here I'm sure you are a good friend in return.

You got grandkids Don? Maybe you could get them involved in some projects,
even if it is achieved remotely.

Over here in Australia we have an organisation called "Mens Sheds". They set
up small workshops in the suburbs where like minded guys of all ages can get
together to talk crap, make stuff and generally socialise. I don't know if
they have them in your part of the world but it seems you might be a good
fit for them if you did.

Get some filters set up on you news group reader - there's still some
interesting stuff here & I'm sure others have missed your input as well.

Where are the pictures of the fire grate? If you've got some stick them in
the drop box for us to look at.

Best regards!

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I'm still alive but I very seldom read RCM any more. I think that the
most prolific posters do little or no metalworking. It's mostly
political slogan-slinging and Gunner-bashing.

I'm busy grieving. for my treasured. soulmate Mary that died
unexpectedly last March. It's hard work. Many fellow travelers who
have lost beloved spouses say that the second year is worse than the
first. That doesn't seem possible, but I guess I'll soon see.

In olden days, people would grieve for a year and then get on with
their lives. I wholeheartedly recommend the same to you, my friend.


I have almost no motivation to do anything useful or even necessary.
I'm hoping that longer days may revitalize me, though this has been a
"non-winter" in Minnesota.

So find somewhere to volunteer and put some time in doing something
helping others. Or start a mentor/apprentice program so you can do
the exact things -you- want to do, Don. Pass on your skills.


I have wonderful support from family (2 sons) in town. Daughter Karen
came from Denver to visit for my birthday. As usual, she had a
project in mind: she made a fire ring with cutouts using my plasma
cutter. Neat!

Smart woman. She probably got it from her parents.


I had three lady friends that I enjoyed a lot, no romance but good
friendships. One of them recently got ****ed at me for reasons I
still don't understand and is "taking a break" which I think might be
permanent. I miss her, am grieving a little for that loss. There's
still another, A, that is steady as rock, I continue to be amazed
with her. She is a widow, lost her hub three weeks before I lost my
Mary. She's grieving hard also but she is a remarkably strong woman.
That'll never be a romance either but it is a hell of a good
friendship, perhaps the best thing I have going in my life -- and it's
obviously good for her too.

And, she is a beautiful woman, a head-turner.

Don't be so damned sure, sir. She's probably ****ed at you because
you haven't made a pass at her. (hint dropped)


I've been taking square dancing lessons. Matter of fact, yesterday
was the last lesson, "graduation" will be next Monday night. I don't
feel ready for "graduation" but my "angel" partners (experienced
dancers) tell me I'm doing great. There are 68 calls in mainstream
square dancing and there's no time to think when the calls are made.
Some of the calls require fairly complex sequences of maneuvers or
steps. One (that I've mastered) is 32 steps in cadence with the
music.

Good, have fun! Any other engineers, or even (gasp!) blue collar
workers, in the group you can relate to in a purely electrical or
mechanical or machining way?


It's a strugggle to get out of bed most days, and some days I don't
bother. Today was one of them. That isn't unusual. My friend A has
a day job but she called in sick yesterday, which was the day after
the anniversary of her late hub's death. She weathered the
anniversary day OK with family but then melted down. She says I'm
the only person she can really talk to about her profound grief. My
family is more understanding than hers, but it's certainly true that
nobody who isn't a fellow traveler (one who has lost a beloved spouse)
can even begin to comprehend.

There is no "getting over" this kind of grief.

YES THERE IS, Don. Do it for Mary if not for yourself. She wouldn't
want you wasting away, pining over her for the rest of your life.


It isn't like losing
parents or even a child, because it is a permanent and irrevocable
life-change at a time in life where change is difficult. (I'm 70) My
friend A lost a previous hub and, while the 10 years she had with her
latest hub were by far the best 10 years of her life, she still talks
about the previous guy now and then. A is a decade younger than I but
I strongly doubt that she'll ever remarry. I also strongly doubt that
she'll ever discard me as a valued and special friend.

So work on her. wink

xox

We love you, Don. /tough love

--
....in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I'm still alive but I very seldom read RCM any more. I think that
the most prolific posters do little or no metalworking. It's mostly
political slogan-slinging and Gunner-bashing.

Good to see you Don, and hear you are doing well.

Keep up the good work!

And dont be concerned about those trying to bash me...VBG..they see
the handwriting on the wall...and are trying desperatly to bash the
big old Consi that represents all da ebil in de bad ol world. After
November 13th..its gonna be far far worse....VBG

You doing just fine!!

Gunner


Hey Gunner **** off & quit cross posting!

....
My friend Karl the apple farmer has been a continuing surprise,
amazingly supportive. That has meant a lot to me. A week of fishing
in the Florida keys in January with Karl and Julie was wonderful.

I just got the second 1919 assembled today. Its dry firing 19 out of
20. I'm going for 20/20. Then it needs a range test but testing the
first one ate all my ammo. Are you up for a reloading run?

Karl

On 2/27/2012 8:36 PM, Dennis wrote:
I haven't had the pleasure of reading one of Don's posts for quite a while.
I hope all is well with Don. Anyone?

I see that someone posting as Don Foreman has answered and said he is
alive and relatively well. It will be interesting to see if gummer
responds that the real Don Foreman is dead and that gummer or people
known to him had some involvement in his death.

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:32:57 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:



In olden days, people would grieve for a year and then get on with
their lives. I wholeheartedly recommend the same to you, my friend.

No, they didn't. That's what others expected. Widows wore black for
a year and then were presumed to be "over it".

I got that same advice from my Dr, who wants to treat me for
depression. I am not depressed, I am grieving and there's a
significant difference though many symptoms are similar. People in
depression can't laugh, have fun or experience joy. I definitely
can and do.

One of my new friends, A, is a LOT of fun to be with. She was widowed
three weeks before I was so she just had her first anniversary -- and
that was difficult for her. But we laugh together way more than we
cry together.


Don't be so damned sure, sir. She's probably ****ed at you because
you haven't made a pass at her. (hint dropped)

I'm quite sure that isn't the source of her pique. But she's comin'
around now: hopes to see me tomorrow at group. She wouldn't be
****ed if she didn't care about me, but if this is "aggrivated" as she
describes it, I'd sure hate to see her really ****ed off.

Good, have fun! Any other engineers, or even (gasp!) blue collar
workers, in the group you can relate to in a purely electrical or
mechanical or machining way?

Yes! One guy was a machinist. It's a wonderful group.

There is no "getting over" this kind of grief.

YES THERE IS, Don. Do it for Mary if not for yourself. She wouldn't
want you wasting away, pining over her for the rest of your life.

NO THERE ISN'T. That's well documented in the literature. But that
isn't the same as wasting away pining for the lost one forever. We
need to keep going, find a "new normal". Life will never be the
same as it was, so we must devise, design and discover how life will
be henceforth after the loss of a soulmate and partner.

In terms of my progress, Mary would say "way to go, Foreman, be
careful!" She would have liked both A and H. Matter of fact, she
did meet A once and liked her immediately.

We never "get over" it; we must learn how to live with it -- and we
must face the pain and deal with it because grief can be delayed but
it cannot be denied. It has to be processed sooner or later.

A is a decade younger than I but
I strongly doubt that she'll ever remarry. I also strongly doubt that
she'll ever discard me as a valued and special friend.

So work on her. wink

Don't need to. It's a wonderful friendship as is. I continue to be
surprised at how it's working so well.


We love you, Don. /tough love

Thank you, Larry. Hug me at your peril! G

That actually happened in a grief support group: Ken hugs all of the
ladies. At one point the facilitator asked if there was anyone
present that Ken hadn't hugged. I raised my hand. He came over,
yanked me out of my seat and gave me a bear hug. I hugged him back in
kind. I think he's mending nicely. When I see him now a hearty
handshake is exchanged but he says (with a grin) "no hugs". Ken is
a fixture in that group. I think it'd be about impossible to dislike
him.

Don, there is no hurry to get over anything, you are just fine and
there is nothing wrong with you. In fact, you might be grieving as you
are fooling around with attractive ladies. One does not preclude
another. This is all OK, as long as your life is in order and you keep
a good memory of your wife.

I hope to see more of you and your posts here.

i

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:18:22 -0600, Karl Townsend
wrote:

...
My friend Karl the apple farmer has been a continuing surprise,
amazingly supportive. That has meant a lot to me. A week of fishing
in the Florida keys in January with Karl and Julie was wonderful.

I just got the second 1919 assembled today. Its dry firing 19 out of
20. I'm going for 20/20. Then it needs a range test but testing the
first one ate all my ammo. Are you up for a reloading run?

Karl

Yoo betcha!

On 2/29/2012 7:15 PM, Don Foreman wrote:

We love you, Don./tough love

Thank you, Larry. Hug me at your peril!G

That actually happened in a grief support group: Ken hugs all of the
ladies. At one point the facilitator asked if there was anyone
present that Ken hadn't hugged. I raised my hand. He came over,
yanked me out of my seat and gave me a bear hug. I hugged him back in
kind. I think he's mending nicely. When I see him now a hearty
handshake is exchanged but he says (with a grin) "no hugs". Ken is
a fixture in that group. I think it'd be about impossible to dislike
him.



Guy Hug (tm), Don.

Gun hand to gun hand -
Knife hand to the back.

On 2/29/2012 3:45 PM, George Plimpton wrote:
On 2/27/2012 8:36 PM, Dennis wrote:
I haven't had the pleasure of reading one of Don's posts for quite a
while.
I hope all is well with Don. Anyone?

I see that someone posting as Don Foreman has answered and said he is
alive and relatively well. It will be interesting to see if gummer
responds that the real Don Foreman is dead and that gummer or people
known to him had some involvement in his death.


How did you slip out of your box again???

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
news snip
We never "get over" it; we must learn how to live with it -- and we
must face the pain and deal with it because grief can be delayed but
it cannot be denied. It has to be processed sooner or later.
____________________________________________

25 years ago my fiancé was killed by a drunk driver. We had nowhere near
your relationship nurtured over so many years and only a fraction of the
meld but I still grieve...I'm just used to it now and I fondly remember the
fun and the laughs. Then I became a lesbian.

Go shooting!

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:15:39 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:32:57 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

In olden days, people would grieve for a year and then get on with
their lives. I wholeheartedly recommend the same to you, my friend.

No, they didn't. That's what others expected. Widows wore black for
a year and then were presumed to be "over it".

But most were ready to shuck the black far earlier, whether or not
they wanted to replace their man. I'm sorry that you feel the need to
grieve for so long, Don.


I got that same advice from my Dr, who wants to treat me for
depression. I am not depressed, I am grieving and there's a
significant difference though many symptoms are similar. People in
depression can't laugh, have fun or experience joy. I definitely
can and do.

This is good.


One of my new friends, A, is a LOT of fun to be with. She was widowed
three weeks before I was so she just had her first anniversary -- and
that was difficult for her. But we laugh together way more than we
cry together.

Again, good!


Don't be so damned sure, sir. She's probably ****ed at you because
you haven't made a pass at her. (hint dropped)

I'm quite sure that isn't the source of her pique. But she's comin'
around now: hopes to see me tomorrow at group. She wouldn't be
****ed if she didn't care about me, but if this is "aggrivated" as she
describes it, I'd sure hate to see her really ****ed off.

g


Good, have fun! Any other engineers, or even (gasp!) blue collar
workers, in the group you can relate to in a purely electrical or
mechanical or machining way?

Yes! One guy was a machinist. It's a wonderful group.

There is no "getting over" this kind of grief.

YES THERE IS, Don. Do it for Mary if not for yourself. She wouldn't
want you wasting away, pining over her for the rest of your life.

NO THERE ISN'T. That's well documented in the literature. But that
isn't the same as wasting away pining for the lost one forever. We
need to keep going, find a "new normal". Life will never be the
same as it was, so we must devise, design and discover how life will
be henceforth after the loss of a soulmate and partner.

OK, maybe there isn't. But I consider a 90% diminution of the effects
of grief to be "over it". Nobody wants to be, but it happens, and
that's good. You learn to live with it and memories fade, softening
it. You retain your good memories and honor the missing spouse but
life revolves once again. (Always single, I've only seen this from
afar and had it related to me via dozens of friends who have
experienced it.)


In terms of my progress, Mary would say "way to go, Foreman, be
careful!" She would have liked both A and H. Matter of fact, she
did meet A once and liked her immediately.

Excellent.


We never "get over" it; we must learn how to live with it -- and we
must face the pain and deal with it because grief can be delayed but
it cannot be denied. It has to be processed sooner or later.

Semantics? (end game same/same)


A is a decade younger than I but
I strongly doubt that she'll ever remarry. I also strongly doubt that
she'll ever discard me as a valued and special friend.

So work on her. wink

Don't need to. It's a wonderful friendship as is. I continue to be
surprised at how it's working so well.

OK, denial it is. bseg


We love you, Don. /tough love

Thank you, Larry. Hug me at your peril! G

g


That actually happened in a grief support group: Ken hugs all of the
ladies. At one point the facilitator asked if there was anyone
present that Ken hadn't hugged. I raised my hand. He came over,
yanked me out of my seat and gave me a bear hug. I hugged him back in
kind. I think he's mending nicely. When I see him now a hearty
handshake is exchanged but he says (with a grin) "no hugs". Ken is
a fixture in that group. I think it'd be about impossible to dislike
him.

We do that in AA, too. We're all family.

--
....in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

On 2/29/2012 5:15 PM, Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:32:57 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:



In olden days, people would grieve for a year and then get on with
their lives. I wholeheartedly recommend the same to you, my friend.

No, they didn't. That's what others expected. Widows wore black for
a year and then were presumed to be "over it".

I got that same advice from my Dr, who wants to treat me for
depression. I am not depressed, I am grieving and there's a
significant difference though many symptoms are similar. People in
depression can't laugh, have fun or experience joy. I definitely
can and do.

I don't know you, and I wouldn't presume to tele-diagnose. I will just
say that depression isn't a mood, it's a medical condition. If you're
grieving or mourning, which is a mental state, it quite possibly is
causing the medical condition of depression. You should listen to your
doctor, then just be conservative in taking any medication he may
recommend.



One of my new friends, A, is a LOT of fun to be with. She was widowed
three weeks before I was so she just had her first anniversary -- and
that was difficult for her. But we laugh together way more than we
cry together.


Don't be so damned sure, sir. She's probably ****ed at you because
you haven't made a pass at her. (hint dropped)

I'm quite sure that isn't the source of her pique. But she's comin'
around now: hopes to see me tomorrow at group. She wouldn't be
****ed if she didn't care about me, but if this is "aggrivated" as she
describes it, I'd sure hate to see her really ****ed off.

Good, have fun! Any other engineers, or even (gasp!) blue collar
workers, in the group you can relate to in a purely electrical or
mechanical or machining way?

Yes! One guy was a machinist. It's a wonderful group.

There is no "getting over" this kind of grief.

YES THERE IS, Don. Do it for Mary if not for yourself. She wouldn't
want you wasting away, pining over her for the rest of your life.

NO THERE ISN'T. That's well documented in the literature. But that
isn't the same as wasting away pining for the lost one forever. We
need to keep going, find a "new normal". Life will never be the
same as it was, so we must devise, design and discover how life will
be henceforth after the loss of a soulmate and partner.

In terms of my progress, Mary would say "way to go, Foreman, be
careful!" She would have liked both A and H. Matter of fact, she
did meet A once and liked her immediately.

We never "get over" it; we must learn how to live with it -- and we
must face the pain and deal with it because grief can be delayed but
it cannot be denied. It has to be processed sooner or later.

A is a decade younger than I but
I strongly doubt that she'll ever remarry. I also strongly doubt that
she'll ever discard me as a valued and special friend.

So work on her.wink

Don't need to. It's a wonderful friendship as is. I continue to be
surprised at how it's working so well.


We love you, Don./tough love

Thank you, Larry. Hug me at your peril!G

That actually happened in a grief support group: Ken hugs all of the
ladies. At one point the facilitator asked if there was anyone
present that Ken hadn't hugged. I raised my hand. He came over,
yanked me out of my seat and gave me a bear hug. I hugged him back in
kind. I think he's mending nicely. When I see him now a hearty
handshake is exchanged but he says (with a grin) "no hugs". Ken is
a fixture in that group. I think it'd be about impossible to dislike
him.

On 2/29/2012 5:32 PM, Richard wrote:
On 2/29/2012 3:45 PM, George Plimpton wrote:
On 2/27/2012 8:36 PM, Dennis wrote:
I haven't had the pleasure of reading one of Don's posts for quite a
while.
I hope all is well with Don. Anyone?

I see that someone posting as Don Foreman has answered and said he is
alive and relatively well. It will be interesting to see if gummer
responds that the real Don Foreman is dead and that gummer or people
known to him had some involvement in his death.


How did you slip out of your box again???

I've never been in one. My life is a testament to thinking, being and
*living* outside the box. You should try it.

On 2/29/2012 8:31 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:32:33 -0600,
wrote:

On 2/29/2012 3:45 PM, George Plimpton wrote:
On 2/27/2012 8:36 PM, Dennis wrote:
I haven't had the pleasure of reading one of Don's posts for quite a
while.
I hope all is well with Don. Anyone?

I see that someone posting as Don Foreman has answered and said he is
alive and relatively well. It will be interesting to see if gummer
responds that the real Don Foreman is dead and that gummer or people
known to him had some involvement in his death.


How did you slip out of your box again???

Cockroaches can slip through the smallest cracks.

You do it all the time, don't you?

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 21:13:17 -0800, Delvin Benet ýt wrote:



I don't know you, and I wouldn't presume to tele-diagnose. I will just
say that depression isn't a mood, it's a medical condition. If you're
grieving or mourning, which is a mental state, it quite possibly is
causing the medical condition of depression. You should listen to your
doctor, then just be conservative in taking any medication he may
recommend.

I'm listening to a certified professional grief counsellor who
explained the difference between grief and clinical depression.

I am grieving normally, doing OK or better.

A very good friend suggested that I should hoist myself up by the
stacking swivel; his widowed friend was doing just fine. I tore him
a new asshole for that remark, he mentioned that to his friend who
informed him that she'd been presenting a brave face but she cried
herself to sleep every night for more than a year.

Grief is not pretty; it repels many. I am extremely fortunate to
have family and a few friends that are with me as I grieve, and some
new friends and fellow travelers that completely understand because
they're on similar journeys.

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I'm still alive but I very seldom read RCM any more. I think that the
most prolific posters do little or no metalworking. It's mostly
political slogan-slinging and Gunner-bashing.


I really miss your lucid project descriptions, Don. A brief note here
if something new is posted would be most appreciated.

--sp

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I'm still alive but I very seldom read RCM any more. I think that the
most prolific posters do little or no metalworking. It's mostly
political slogan-slinging and Gunner-bashing.

Glad to hear from you Don. Quite awhile ago you had given me the
dimensions for the tangential tool holder you made for your lathe. I
finally got around to making one for mine. In the end I wound up
using 12º for my angles. I wasn't sure how you chose 13.5º for yours
or whether you were jerking my chain when I saw the 0.5. The
tangential tool gives an improved finish compared to my other hand
sharpened HSS lathe tools, but often the finish is still a bit rough,
as though there was some microscopic steel tearout. I haven't played
with the angles on the tool bit itself. It's been awhile since I
ground it, but I think I used 30º for both angles based on something
I'd read. After being an unemployed EE for a year, my son got a
position as the director of the EE lab at the local university. It's
really a tech's job, but he has a lot of time to pursue interesting
aspects of trouble shooting that aren't taught in college courses.
Some of us still talk shop here.

RWL

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:11:49 -0800, Larry Jaques
There is no "getting over" this kind of grief.

YES THERE IS, Don. Do it for Mary if not for yourself. She wouldn't
want you wasting away, pining over her for the rest of your life.

NO THERE ISN'T. That's well documented in the literature. But that
isn't the same as wasting away pining for the lost one forever. We
need to keep going, find a "new normal". Life will never be the
same as it was, so we must devise, design and discover how life will
be henceforth after the loss of a soulmate and partner.

OK, maybe there isn't. But I consider a 90% diminution of the effects
of grief to be "over it". Nobody wants to be, but it happens, and
that's good. You learn to live with it and memories fade, softening
it. You retain your good memories and honor the missing spouse but
life revolves once again. (Always single, I've only seen this from
afar and had it related to me via dozens of friends who have
experienced it.)

No disrespect intended, but having never experienced it you can't
begin to comprehend it. That's well documented in the literature.

We all grieve as we do, there's no formula or schedule. A friend and
fellow traveler who has been widowed three times says those
experiences were all very different. She is a remarkably strong
woman, widowed three weeks before I was. She's bumpin' along but she
still has some days that are almost paralyzingly difficult. But
she's getting on with life successfully.

She got very quiet for a little while during my recent birthday party.
I know how that works, so does she when I get quiet. We never know
when those episodes will occur. I didn't say anything, just held her
hand under the table. She got past it in a few minutes. She never
said what the trigger was, and I don't need to know. Trivial things
can be major triggers.

Not long ago we had a gunsmoke social and luncheon, a range visit
with friends that I've been doing this with for some time. Mary was
part of our group.

After that shoot, before going to the Mex restaurant, I was sitting in
the parking lot of Bill's Gunshop and Range with my head on the
steering wheel bawling my head off. I thought everyone else had left
and I'd catch up with them.

I heard a tap on my window. Oh, ****! It was Todd. "Wanna ride with
me?" "No, I'll be OK." "Want me to ride with you?" "No, I'll be
OK." "OK bud, seeya there." He's that kind of friend.

What was the trigger? Seeing how he related to his wife Laura while
shooting. Laura and Mary were tight as ticks immediately, I'd never
seen Mary warm up to another person so quickly. The relationship Todd
'n Laura have is quite exceptional. Iam amazingly lucky to have them
as friends. They've not pulled away from me during my grief. That's
unusual for couples. I don't see them a lot, but they've embraced me
as family.

After one gunsmoke social and luncheon, when Mary was in the rehab
place, Laura stopped by to visit. She went walking past the front
desk with a big target shot full of bullet holes that she wanted to
show Mary. The target was a sheet with five bullseyes, there were
four shooters. The fifth bullseye was labelled "Mary", signifying
that we'd missed her good company that day. Then she did Mary's
hair as they chatted about whatever women chat about. That day was
huge for Mary. I'll never forget that kindness.

My very experienced professional counseller seems to think that I'm
progressing well.

Said counsellor has also noted that the relationship I had, based on
anecdotal evidence, was quite exceptional -- and she's heard hundreds
of stories. Everyone in support groups says they lost a soulmate so
I thought maybe mine was no different. My counseller says wrong, it
defiinitely was. I think my friends A and H also had similarly
exceptional relationships. I don't know how I sensed that capacity
but I immediately did.



A is a decade younger than I but
I strongly doubt that she'll ever remarry. I also strongly doubt that
she'll ever discard me as a valued and special friend.

So work on her. wink

Don't need to. It's a wonderful friendship as is. I continue to be
surprised at how it's working so well.

OK, denial it is. bseg

It ain't denial, it's respect. She's nowhere near ready for a
romantic involvement and I probably am not either. I sure don't want
to screw up a very valuable friendship by trying to take it where it
can't presently go. We've explored that a little. Uh uh, not gonna
happen anytime soon. She's still very married. She's that kind of
woman. OK, roger that! We talk freely about her Buck and my Mary.
We enjoy each other's company a lot and we laugh far more than we cry.
She is surprisingly game. Loyal to Buck and prudishly proper as she
is we've had a couple of cabin weekends at the lake that were hugely
enjoyable. Separate bedrooms. There'll be more of those this coming
season. We never did go swimming. I think if she came out in a
swimsuit I'd explode. I can think of worse ways to go.

She still has a day job so it's not easy to find time to spend
together. Other friend H is retired -- but I think she's screwed me
off. I'm grieving a little for the loss of that friendship, which
apparently wasn't as important to her as I imagined. I was a good
friend to her, she said so several times. **** happens.

Life lurches on.

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 00:44:13 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:11:49 -0800, Larry Jaques
There is no "getting over" this kind of grief.

YES THERE IS, Don. Do it for Mary if not for yourself. She wouldn't
want you wasting away, pining over her for the rest of your life.

NO THERE ISN'T. That's well documented in the literature. But that
isn't the same as wasting away pining for the lost one forever. We
need to keep going, find a "new normal". Life will never be the
same as it was, so we must devise, design and discover how life will
be henceforth after the loss of a soulmate and partner.

OK, maybe there isn't. But I consider a 90% diminution of the effects
of grief to be "over it". Nobody wants to be, but it happens, and
that's good. You learn to live with it and memories fade, softening
it. You retain your good memories and honor the missing spouse but
life revolves once again. (Always single, I've only seen this from
afar and had it related to me via dozens of friends who have
experienced it.)

No disrespect intended, but having never experienced it you can't
begin to comprehend it. That's well documented in the literature.

I suppose not. Sorry.


We all grieve as we do, there's no formula or schedule. A friend and
fellow traveler who has been widowed three times says those
experiences were all very different. She is a remarkably strong
woman, widowed three weeks before I was. She's bumpin' along but she
still has some days that are almost paralyzingly difficult. But
she's getting on with life successfully.

She got very quiet for a little while during my recent birthday party.
I know how that works, so does she when I get quiet. We never know
when those episodes will occur. I didn't say anything, just held her
hand under the table. She got past it in a few minutes. She never
said what the trigger was, and I don't need to know. Trivial things
can be major triggers.

Not long ago we had a gunsmoke social and luncheon, a range visit
with friends that I've been doing this with for some time. Mary was
part of our group.

After that shoot, before going to the Mex restaurant, I was sitting in
the parking lot of Bill's Gunshop and Range with my head on the
steering wheel bawling my head off. I thought everyone else had left
and I'd catch up with them.

I heard a tap on my window. Oh, ****! It was Todd. "Wanna ride with
me?" "No, I'll be OK." "Want me to ride with you?" "No, I'll be
OK." "OK bud, seeya there." He's that kind of friend.

What was the trigger? Seeing how he related to his wife Laura while
shooting. Laura and Mary were tight as ticks immediately, I'd never
seen Mary warm up to another person so quickly. The relationship Todd
'n Laura have is quite exceptional. Iam amazingly lucky to have them
as friends. They've not pulled away from me during my grief. That's
unusual for couples. I don't see them a lot, but they've embraced me
as family.

It's wonderful to have friends like that.


After one gunsmoke social and luncheon, when Mary was in the rehab
place, Laura stopped by to visit. She went walking past the front
desk with a big target shot full of bullet holes that she wanted to
show Mary. The target was a sheet with five bullseyes, there were
four shooters. The fifth bullseye was labelled "Mary", signifying
that we'd missed her good company that day. Then she did Mary's
hair as they chatted about whatever women chat about. That day was
huge for Mary. I'll never forget that kindness.

Nor should you.


My very experienced professional counseller seems to think that I'm
progressing well.

Excellent.


Said counsellor has also noted that the relationship I had, based on
anecdotal evidence, was quite exceptional -- and she's heard hundreds
of stories. Everyone in support groups says they lost a soulmate so
I thought maybe mine was no different. My counseller says wrong, it
defiinitely was. I think my friends A and H also had similarly
exceptional relationships. I don't know how I sensed that capacity
but I immediately did.



A is a decade younger than I but
I strongly doubt that she'll ever remarry. I also strongly doubt that
she'll ever discard me as a valued and special friend.

So work on her. wink

Don't need to. It's a wonderful friendship as is. I continue to be
surprised at how it's working so well.

OK, denial it is. bseg

It ain't denial, it's respect. She's nowhere near ready for a
romantic involvement and I probably am not either. I sure don't want
to screw up a very valuable friendship by trying to take it where it
can't presently go. We've explored that a little. Uh uh, not gonna

OK, my friendly goad is cheerfully retracted.


happen anytime soon. She's still very married. She's that kind of
woman. OK, roger that! We talk freely about her Buck and my Mary.
We enjoy each other's company a lot and we laugh far more than we cry.
She is surprisingly game. Loyal to Buck and prudishly proper as she
is we've had a couple of cabin weekends at the lake that were hugely
enjoyable. Separate bedrooms. There'll be more of those this coming
season. We never did go swimming. I think if she came out in a
swimsuit I'd explode. I can think of worse ways to go.

g


She still has a day job so it's not easy to find time to spend
together. Other friend H is retired -- but I think she's screwed me
off. I'm grieving a little for the loss of that friendship, which
apparently wasn't as important to her as I imagined. I was a good
friend to her, she said so several times. **** happens.

Condolences.


Life lurches on.

OK. Carry on, sir!

--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


I'm busy grieving.

I get that all this written moaning might somehow be cathartic but now
you're making a career out of it. Past a certain point dwelling on
grief is stupid. Responders here or anywhere who buy into it and feed
it aren't doing you any favors. Man up already for Christ's sake Don.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


I'm busy grieving.

I get that all this written moaning might somehow be cathartic but now
you're making a career out of it. Past a certain point dwelling on
grief is stupid. Responders here or anywhere who buy into it and feed
it aren't doing you any favors. Man up already for Christ's sake Don.

plink ........................

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 17:50:21 -0700, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


I'm busy grieving.

I get that all this written moaning might somehow be cathartic but now
you're making a career out of it. Past a certain point dwelling on
grief is stupid. Responders here or anywhere who buy into it and feed
it aren't doing you any favors. Man up already for Christ's sake Don. \\'

That isn't how spouse loss grief works for either men or women.
Denial doesn't work, Grief needs to be done and it takes as long as
it takes. Dealing with and processing the grief requires facing the
pain and dlealing with it. Denial and/or advoidance is not "manning
up" , it's 's cowadlryl avioidance by denial.

Tough **** if reading about it is more than you can cope with. You
can simply stop reading.

On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 07:53:54 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 17:50:21 -0700, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


I'm busy grieving.

I get that all this written moaning might somehow be cathartic but now
you're making a career out of it. Past a certain point dwelling on
grief is stupid. Responders here or anywhere who buy into it and feed
it aren't doing you any favors. Man up already for Christ's sake Don. \\'

That isn't how spouse loss grief works for either men or women.

I've been there. When the going gets tough friends that only tell you
what you want to hear are a dime a dozen. Save your rationlizations
for them.

Denial doesn't work,

I didn't tell you to deny anything. Denying depression is the real
dead end.

Grief needs to be done and it takes as long as
it takes.

You're too old to wait for as long as it takes. Wallowing has a way of
accelerating decrepitness that further feeds the wallowing.

Dealing with and processing the grief requires facing the
pain and dlealing with it.

If you believe you're in some kind of battle then the main thing to
face is that you're losing. The time has come to quit overthinking and
simply accept.

Denial and/or advoidance is not "manning
up" , it's 's cowadlryl avioidance by denial.

I have a friend that's 74 and 7 months a widow. She still
cracks up occasionally talking about her husband who was one hell of a
guy. Yet she's travelling the country by herself in a motorhome
visiting old friends and making new ones. You'd have me believe she's
in denial. I know she's not and that you'd do well to be half as
"cowardly" as her. When she talks about her loss she sounds like a
well adjusted adult. The vibe I'm getting from descriptions of your
new life is that you could give lessons to the type of teenage girls
that feed each others angst and tell themselves it's support.

Tough **** if reading about it is more than you can cope with. You
can simply stop reading.

Your comments about losing most interest and not wanting to get out of
bed rang some alarm bells. I hope the quality of your friends is such
that by now I'm not the first to tell you what your bootstraps are
for. Did you tell them how you know better like you're doing here? Oh
well, they'll switch to the easier path sooner or later.

The grieving that don't already have satisfying hobbies tend to make
grief their main hobby. That's understandable for a few months. I'm
not surprised that it's tough to get out of bed when most of what you
have to look forward to is more navel gazing. I accept that some just
aren't capable of turning the corner or to see it in the distance.
Overindulgence in grief isn't that much different than it is for food
or booze or drugs. It's your choice to shape up or continue down the
wallow road.

Don Foreman wrote:

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 17:50:21 -0700, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


I'm busy grieving.

I get that all this written moaning might somehow be cathartic but now
you're making a career out of it. Past a certain point dwelling on
grief is stupid. Responders here or anywhere who buy into it and feed
it aren't doing you any favors. Man up already for Christ's sake Don. \\'

That isn't how spouse loss grief works for either men or women.
Denial doesn't work, Grief needs to be done and it takes as long as
it takes. Dealing with and processing the grief requires facing the
pain and dlealing with it. Denial and/or advoidance is not "manning
up" , it's 's cowadlryl avioidance by denial.

Tough **** if reading about it is more than you can cope with. You
can simply stop reading.


AMEN!!! I have started to email you many times to see how you were
doing, but I stopped because I didn't want to intrude. I figured that
you'll be back when you're ready, but you are sorely missed on the
group. Take care of yourself and ignore the idiots as you deal with it
in your own way and in your own time. Compared to the people around
here that lost a soul mate you are doing well. One woman was doing fine
till her husband died. Within a few months she was a complete basket
case. She completely lost her short term memory, and most of anything
within the previous ten years. She lived two doors down, and had to be
introduced to me every time I saw her. She simply couldn't remember me,
even though we had been neighbors for over three years. Others crawl
into a bottle, or don't take care of themselves. They rarely last more
than a few months. It's really sad, but I am in a area full of
retirees, with a lot in their 70s or 80s so it happens quite often.
Keep working on it your way, it appears to be working for you and that's
all that matters.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 14:06:39 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 07:53:54 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 17:50:21 -0700, wrote:

You're too old to wait for as long as it takes. Wallowing has a way of
accelerating decrepitness that further feeds the wallowing.

Don, if you haven't figured it out yet, this person is a troll.

Ignore it.

--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson

On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 20:00:11 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 14:06:39 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 07:53:54 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 17:50:21 -0700, wrote:

You're too old to wait for as long as it takes. Wallowing has a way of
accelerating decrepitness that further feeds the wallowing.

Don, if you haven't figured it out yet, this person is a troll.

Ignore it.

Thanks, Larry!

Your points are noted and appreciated.

You say you've been the have you lost a beloved spouse and
soulmate? I've lost parents and a child, those losses were
nothing like the loss of my soulmate Mary.


On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 14:06:39 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 07:53:54 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 17:50:21 -0700, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


I'm busy grieving.

I get that all this written moaning might somehow be cathartic but now
you're making a career out of it. Past a certain point dwelling on
grief is stupid. Responders here or anywhere who buy into it and feed
it aren't doing you any favors. Man up already for Christ's sake Don. \\'

That isn't how spouse loss grief works for either men or women.

I've been there. When the going gets tough friends that only tell you
what you want to hear are a dime a dozen. Save your rationlizations
for them.

Denial doesn't work,

I didn't tell you to deny anything. Denying depression is the real
dead end.

Grief needs to be done and it takes as long as
it takes.

You're too old to wait for as long as it takes. Wallowing has a way of
accelerating decrepitness that further feeds the wallowing.

Dealing with and processing the grief requires facing the
pain and dlealing with it.

If you believe you're in some kind of battle then the main thing to
face is that you're losing. The time has come to quit overthinking and
simply accept.

Denial and/or advoidance is not "manning
up" , it's 's cowadlryl avioidance by denial.

I have a friend that's 74 and 7 months a widow. She still
cracks up occasionally talking about her husband who was one hell of a
guy. Yet she's travelling the country by herself in a motorhome
visiting old friends and making new ones. You'd have me believe she's
in denial. I know she's not and that you'd do well to be half as
"cowardly" as her. When she talks about her loss she sounds like a
well adjusted adult. The vibe I'm getting from descriptions of your
new life is that you could give lessons to the type of teenage girls
that feed each others angst and tell themselves it's support.

Tough **** if reading about it is more than you can cope with. You
can simply stop reading.

Your comments about losing most interest and not wanting to get out of
bed rang some alarm bells. I hope the quality of your friends is such
that by now I'm not the first to tell you what your bootstraps are
for. Did you tell them how you know better like you're doing here? Oh
well, they'll switch to the easier path sooner or later.

The grieving that don't already have satisfying hobbies tend to make
grief their main hobby. That's understandable for a few months. I'm
not surprised that it's tough to get out of bed when most of what you
have to look forward to is more navel gazing. I accept that some just
aren't capable of turning the corner or to see it in the distance.
Overindulgence in grief isn't that much different than it is for food
or booze or drugs. It's your choice to shape up or continue down the
wallow road.

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 12:36:14 +0800, "Dennis"
wrote:

I haven't had the pleasure of reading one of Don's posts for quite a while.
I hope all is well with Don. Anyone?

I had a really good day today: attended a really excellent concert,
then had dinner with my son and his S.O. who attended the concert
with me.

Tomorrow is is my "graduation" from square dance lessons. There are
68 calls in mainstream square dancing. I have most of them in
muscle memory, but not all. There is NO time to think, one must just
react and often even anticipate.

It's fun. It's a good group, we're all there to have fun. The
experienced dancers ("angels") are very helpful in pointing or
even hauling my befuddled arse thru a call so our square can keep
dancing rather than have to re-form and wait for the caller to
recognize that.

It is a lot of fun.

My new friend A will be there, new as in since Mary's death but our
friendship began last summer. She was widowed three weeks before I
was. She's been a member of that club for decades, with two
previous hubs, and she is well-loved. We've kept our friendship
under the radar thus far, I'm OK with that. She is occasionally my
partner (and angel) but considerably less than half the time. I
have no problem finding willing partners.

A and I have fromed the custom of having dinner and wine after square
dance lessons, since she doesn't like to eat before dancing. Now
that lessons are done we'll need to discover how we might continue.
That won't be a problem.

A had a rough day yesterday, so did I. It happens. We communicate
and support each other. That's what friends do. It's far from
wallowing, I am inspired by her courage. We keep on keeping on.

Don Foreman wrote:

A had a rough day yesterday, so did I. It happens. We communicate
and support each other. That's what friends do. It's far from
wallowing, I am inspired by her courage. We keep on keeping on.


Hang in there Don. Everyone has different ideas of what they need, you found it once, you
may find it again. Meanwhile you meet those that are also seeking, maybe you only serve
to bring some temporary joy to them, but it is joy, a reason to go on. A good purpose.

I wish you sucess in your search,

Wes

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 18:19:03 -0500, Wes
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

A had a rough day yesterday, so did I. It happens. We communicate
and support each other. That's what friends do. It's far from
wallowing, I am inspired by her courage. We keep on keeping on.


Hang in there Don. Everyone has different ideas of what they need, you found it once, you
may find it again. Meanwhile you meet those that are also seeking, maybe you only serve
to bring some temporary joy to them, but it is joy, a reason to go on. A good purpose.

I wish you sucess in your search,

Wes

Thanks, Wes! One day at a time!

Don Foreman wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 18:19:03 -0500, Wes
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

A had a rough day yesterday, so did I. It happens. We communicate
and support each other. That's what friends do. It's far from
wallowing, I am inspired by her courage. We keep on keeping on.


Hang in there Don. Everyone has different ideas of what they need, you found it once, you
may find it again. Meanwhile you meet those that are also seeking, maybe you only serve
to bring some temporary joy to them, but it is joy, a reason to go on. A good purpose.

I wish you sucess in your search,

Wes

Thanks, Wes! One day at a time!


And one week at a time, when you're ready.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:51:30 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


I'm still alive but I very seldom read RCM any more. I think that the
most prolific posters do little or no metalworking. It's mostly
political slogan-slinging and Gunner-bashing.



I really miss your lucid project descriptions, Don. A brief note here
if something new is posted would be most appreciated.

--sp


Leroy that!

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.