One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT

On Apr 11, 12:32*pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT

Personally, I think not. Who is going to buy tools when things go bad?
Tools will be good to have IF you have the abilities and materials to
use them as barter fodder. I suspect that weapons and ammo will be the
best items to invest your cash in-there will always be a market for
selling guns and having them will allow you the chance of using them
for your and your families defense. I just don't think I can throw my
lathe or milling machine at a robber or rapist.

BTW, I have increased my initial investment many times over by having
something to put on the market in prior downturns.

Gerry wrote:
On Apr 11, 12:32 pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT

Personally, I think not. Who is going to buy tools when things go bad?
Tools will be good to have IF you have the abilities and materials to
use them as barter fodder. I suspect that weapons and ammo will be the
best items to invest your cash in-there will always be a market for
selling guns and having them will allow you the chance of using them
for your and your families defense. I just don't think I can throw my
lathe or milling machine at a robber or rapist.

BTW, I have increased my initial investment many times over by having
something to put on the market in prior downturns.


Beans and bullets again?

Look, you want something valuable to barter?
Toilet paper and tampons...


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26

On 04/11/2011 10:32 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

I think that I when I'm hungry I can't eat a tool any more than I can
eat a pile of gold.

But if what's standing between me and my next meal is a roof that needs
fixing, or a leaking pipe that needs patching, or a garden that needs to
get planted, the right tool is what I need, and a quality tool is going
to be the right tool for years to come. So tools have an immediate
intrinsic value, even if I can't eat 'em.

Gold's true intrinsic, practical value is indirect and fairly hard to
access -- it's great stuff when you need a metal that conducts
electricity well and doesn't corrode easily, and it has a few other
esoteric uses. But for practical day-to-day just getting by, gold is
pretty useless stuff.

It's 'value' comes from it being pretty and being an agreed-upon
monetary commodity. Were our cultural foundations different, you'd be
asking about good tools vs. cowrie shells or wampum, etc. I think that
your average carpenter or machinist or plumber or gardener understands
this, and thus feels more comforted by tools than by lumps of gold when
times get tough.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:10 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT

Defintely. You should buy as many tools as you can possibly afford
(borrowing substantial sums, if necessary), and certainly choose tools
over jewellery for the wife and such jimcrackery*.


*
No Investment Advice or Recommendations

a. This post and its content are for informational, entertainment
and educational purposes only. If you wish to obtain further details
about any information contained in this post, please contact us.

b. You alone will need to evaluate the merits and risks associated
with
the use of this post. Decisions based on information obtained from
the post are your sole responsibility, and before making any decision
on the basis of this information, you should consider (with or without
the assistance of a securities adviser) whether the information is
appropriate in light of your particular investment needs, objectives
and financial circumstances. Investors should seek financial advice
regarding the suitability of investing in any tools or securities or
following any investment strategies.

c. Although this post may provide information relating to approaches
to investing or types of tools, securities and investments you might
buy, sell or hold, no information available through the post is
intended or
should be construed as any advice, recommendation or endorsement from
us
as to any legal, tax, investment or other matter. No reference to any
specific tool or security constitutes a recommendation to buy, sell or
hold
that tool, security or any other security. Nothing on this post shall
be
considered a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any tool, security,
future,
option or other financial instrument or to offer or provide any
investment advice or service to any person in any jurisdiction.
Nothing
contained on the post constitutes investment advice or offers any
opinion with respect to the suitability of any security, and the views
expressed on this post should not be taken as advice to buy, sell or
hold any security or tool. In preparing the information contained in
this
post, we have not taken into account the investment needs, objectives
and financial circumstances of any particular investor. This
information
has no regard to the specific investment objectives, financial
situation
and particular needs of any specific recipient of this information and
investments discussed may not be suitable for all investors.

d. Any views expressed on this post were prepared based upon
the information available to us at the time such views were written.
Changed or additional information could cause such views to change.
All
information is subject to possible correction. Information may quickly
become unreliable for various reasons, including changes in market
conditions or economic circumstances. If an investment is denominated
in
a currency other than the recipient's currency, changes in the rates
of
exchange may have an adverse effect on value, price or income. The
levels and bases of taxation may also change from time to time.

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?


Gold broker:

"You should buy some gold--it's turned out to be a very good investment for
me"...

Me:

Okay, sounds great--but where I can buy some?

Gold broker:

"No problem"--"I got a really good price on some of it awhile back and would
be delighted to sell you a portion".....

--

On Apr 11, 3:54*pm, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...

One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

Gold broker:

"You should buy some gold--it's turned out to be a very good investment for
me"...

Me:

Okay, sounds great--but where I can buy some?

Gold broker:

"No problem"--"I got a really good price on some of it awhile back and would
be delighted to sell you a portion".....

--

*Snicker*...

Exactly right.

TMT

On Apr 11, 5:14*pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Apr 11, 3:54*pm, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:



"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...

One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

Gold broker:

"You should buy some gold--it's turned out to be a very good investment for
me"...

Me:

Okay, sounds great--but where I can buy some?

Gold broker:

"No problem"--"I got a really good price on some of it awhile back and would
be delighted to sell you a portion".....

--

*Snicker*...

Exactly right.

TMT



My opinion and family folklore point in the direction that good tools
and machinery, with the ability to use them effectively, go a long
way towards survival when the **** hits the fan.

While gold has been considered a store of value historically I think
that if the USA is in deep mire, other nations would be dragged down
with this. At that point the value of gold would be questionable.

But a guy who can repair stuff and can make equipment run with only
access to a scrap yard, he is worth serious food and other
considerations.

As to family lore. My father was a very gifted metal worker. After
WWII when you couldn't buy food, especially fresh fruit, milk, and
vegetables, my father purchased aluminum sheet cut-offs from his
employer and manufactured cooking pots and canning pots to order. My
mother went and traded these for the required food stuffs from the
local farmers who were very happy for these customized pots,
especially the canning pots.

Many of these pots were still in use 30 and more years later.

Just my thoughts.

Wolfgang

Tim Wescott wrote:

But if what's standing between me and my next meal is a roof that needs
fixing, or a leaking pipe that needs patching, or a garden that needs to
get planted, the right tool is what I need, and a quality tool is going
to be the right tool for years to come. So tools have an immediate
intrinsic value, even if I can't eat 'em.

Gold's true intrinsic, practical value is indirect and fairly hard to
access -- it's great stuff when you need a metal that conducts
electricity well and doesn't corrode easily, and it has a few other
esoteric uses. But for practical day-to-day just getting by, gold is
pretty useless stuff.


Junk silver and .22 ammo! There is a currency that would work if teotwawki occures.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:10 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT
If you can USE the tools they are definitely a better investment than
gold, that just sits there, waiting for the bottom to fall out of the
market.
You get value out of them for what they do, and still have a good
residual value left.

GOOD tools will be worthmore than you paid for them the way the
quality of the new stuff keeps dropping.

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:48:42 -0700 (PDT), Gerry
wrote:

On Apr 11, 12:32Â*pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT

Personally, I think not. Who is going to buy tools when things go bad?
Tools will be good to have IF you have the abilities and materials to
use them as barter fodder. I suspect that weapons and ammo will be the
best items to invest your cash in-there will always be a market for
selling guns and having them will allow you the chance of using them
for your and your families defense. I just don't think I can throw my
lathe or milling machine at a robber or rapist.

BTW, I have increased my initial investment many times over by having
something to put on the market in prior downturns.
But with the lathe and milling machine you can make and repair guns -
- -and other "necessary" things.

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:10 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT

Quality machines tend to hold their value better than lesser brands of
machines over the long run, BUT in depressed times their prices drop
like most things. Look at Iggy. He made some incredible buys for a
couple of years. Quality machines selling at the scrap metal price or
just over it. People just weren't buying last year. The market for
machine tools is smaller than the market for gold. No. I don't think
tools are as good an investment as gold, in that during depressed
times there are always buyers for gold, - maybe not at top dollar, but
not at giveaway prices either.

My sense however is that the prices of tools have begun to rebound.
I"m glad I was buying the past couple of years.

RWL

On 2011-04-12, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane wrote:
Quality machines tend to hold their value better than lesser brands of
machines over the long run, BUT in depressed times their prices drop
like most things. Look at Iggy. He made some incredible buys for a
couple of years.

I made an incredible buy today too, a Lincoln LN-25 MIG wire feed for
CC and CV machines, together with a gas solenoid option and a
contactor option. The price was $50. The seller, a gorgeous red headed
woman, was 100% honest with this welder also.

It works, too. I will probably sell it with the SA-200 welder, it will
fit it like a glove fits hand.

That said, yes, you are right. In a crisis, the prices of machines
dropped like a rock, which was a good thing all around, for machine
buyers.

Quality machines selling at the scrap metal price or just over it.
People just weren't buying last year. The market for machine tools
is smaller than the market for gold. No. I don't think tools are
as good an investment as gold, in that during depressed times there
are always buyers for gold, - maybe not at top dollar, but not at
giveaway prices either.

This is not true. Gold does not have intrinsic value, and dropped in
price from $800 to $250 per ounce, not so long ago.

My sense however is that the prices of tools have begun to rebound.
I"m glad I was buying the past couple of years.

I have a firm resolution to stay out of gold.

i

Ignoramus9930 wrote:

I have a firm resolution to stay out of gold.



I don't have any problem staying out of it at current price levels.

On 4/11/2011 10:32 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT

Pure investment? No. Not at all. If you buy smoking hot deals at
garage sales you might make some money, but not as open market
investment. Now, if you are banking on the partial collapse of
civilization maybe... if you also stockpile hard wood, various grades
steel, aluminum, bronze, brass, etc etc. In a really tough time its
always good to be able to do some things yourself.

On 4/11/2011 10:32 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

I don't believe there is such a trend. I think you're imagining it.

On 4/11/2011 11:05 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 04/11/2011 10:32 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

I think that I when I'm hungry I can't eat a tool any more than I can
eat a pile of gold.

But if what's standing between me and my next meal is a roof that needs
fixing, or a leaking pipe that needs patching, or a garden that needs to
get planted, the right tool is what I need, and a quality tool is going
to be the right tool for years to come. So tools have an immediate
intrinsic value, even if I can't eat 'em.

Gold's true intrinsic, practical value is indirect and fairly hard to
access -- it's great stuff when you need a metal that conducts
electricity well and doesn't corrode easily, and it has a few other
esoteric uses. But for practical day-to-day just getting by, gold is
pretty useless stuff.

It is money that can't be counterfeited or devalued through inflation.
It's plentiful enough to serve as a medium of exchange, but rare enough
that its value can't be diluted by churning it out.



It's 'value' comes from it being pretty and being an agreed-upon
monetary commodity. Were our cultural foundations different, you'd be
asking about good tools vs. cowrie shells or wampum, etc. I think that
your average carpenter or machinist or plumber or gardener understands
this, and thus feels more comforted by tools than by lumps of gold when
times get tough.

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 22:40:22 -0700, "678.714.5764"
wrote:

On 4/11/2011 10:32 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

I don't believe there is such a trend. I think you're imagining it.

In some cases..HAND tools may hold their values..and SOME machine tools
may not drop below a certain point.

But....even Hardinge HLV-Hs which once sold used for $11k..are now
selling for less than half that.

Guns are the only non gold/non Art item that I know of, that holds their
values to a certain extent.

Gunner

--
"If I say two plus two is four and a Democrat says two plus two is eight,
it's not a partial victory for me when we agree that two plus two is
six. " Jonah Goldberg (modified)

On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 02:10:50 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 22:40:22 -0700, "678.714.5764"
wrote:

On 4/11/2011 10:32 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

I don't believe there is such a trend. I think you're imagining it.

In some cases..HAND tools may hold their values..and SOME machine tools
may not drop below a certain point.

But....even Hardinge HLV-Hs which once sold used for $11k..are now
selling for less than half that.

Guns are the only non gold/non Art item that I know of, that holds their
values to a certain extent.

Gunner

I think guns are a good investment. And they may prove more useful
than stock certificates if (when) the **** hits the fan.

karl

On Apr 11, 10:24*pm, wrote:
...
*But with the lathe and milling machine you can make and repair guns -
- -and other "necessary" things.-

Like generators, pumps and chainsaws, which are in high demand around
here after a bad storm. The question is what to take for payment for
such small jobs if the owner has run out of cash, the banks are closed
and you don't trust them enough for a check.

In my case there are enough close neighbors with generator problems to
keep me busy.

jsw

On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 06:07:22 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Apr 11, 10:24Â*pm, wrote:
...
Â*But with the lathe and milling machine you can make and repair guns -
- -and other "necessary" things.-

Like generators, pumps and chainsaws, which are in high demand around
here after a bad storm. The question is what to take for payment for
such small jobs if the owner has run out of cash, the banks are closed
and you don't trust them enough for a check.

Tools, gasoline, kerosene, rice, fresh vegetables, fresh venison...
And PV panels or pedal time on the battery charger, eh?


In my case there are enough close neighbors with generator problems to
keep me busy.

I'll have to look into that myself.

--
If you're looking for the key to the Universe,
I've got some good news and some bad news.

The bad news: There is no key to the Universe.

The good news: It was never locked.
--Swami Beyondananda

gold was a great investment 4 years ago, but not now

On Apr 12, 10:37*am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 06:07:22 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins

wrote:
On Apr 11, 10:24*pm, wrote:
...
*But with the lathe and milling machine you can make and repair guns -
- -and other "necessary" things.-

Like generators, pumps and chainsaws, which are in high demand around
here after a bad storm. The question is what to take for payment for
such small jobs if the owner has run out of cash, the banks are closed
and you don't trust them enough for a check.

Tools, gasoline, kerosene, rice, fresh vegetables, fresh venison...
And PV panels or pedal time on the battery charger, eh?

The needier they are, the less likely to have those.

In my case there are enough close neighbors with generator problems to
keep me busy.

I'll have to look into that myself.

They are tradesmen with their own useful expertise. They leave their
old/broken power tools at my door anyway, like unwanted kittens, and I
hardly ever buy new ones.

jsw

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:10 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT
============

IMSHO what we are currently seeing is not a "normal"
economic cycle at all, but rather the partial end result of
several foundational economic changes, i.e. there is more
and "better" to come.

For example this appears to be a jobless "recovery," with
much of the so-called improvements resulting only from
dollar manipulation/creation by the FRB and massive
governmental deficits at all levels. The last bubbles, real
estate and stocks/derivatives popped when "financial
engineering" met reality and the "assets" had to be
revalued. When the US Dollar and governmental debt faces
the same test, i.e. "put up or shut up," another and far
more serious collapse will occur, with no one available [or
willing] to bail us out, even in the short term.

Thus while tools of all kinds may be valuable, both for use
and trade, a reasonable supply of firearms and ammunition
will be required to retain the tools, food, fuel, and other
emergency supplies, precious metals and trade goods you may
accumulate. As is generally the case, the most likely
thieves are the government at all levels ala New Orleans
where they were stealing from each other [generators, fuel
supplies, radio transmission towers, etc.] in addition to
confiscating all the guns they could lay their hands on.


-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Apr 12, 3:03*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
...
...As is generally the case, the most likely
thieves are the government at all levels ala New Orleans
where they were stealing from each other [generators, fuel
supplies, radio transmission towers, etc.] in addition to
confiscating all the guns they could lay their hands on.

-- Unka George *(George McDuffee)

Why didn't we hear about this government breakdown and FEMA failures
whenever hurricanes devastated Florida?

jsw

Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Apr 2011 02:10:50 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 22:40:22 -0700, "678.714.5764"
wrote:

On 4/11/2011 10:32 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

I don't believe there is such a trend. I think you're imagining it.

In some cases..HAND tools may hold their values..and SOME machine tools
may not drop below a certain point.

But....even Hardinge HLV-Hs which once sold used for $11k..are now
selling for less than half that.

Guns are the only non gold/non Art item that I know of, that holds their
values to a certain extent.

That might be a result of them being sort of in the same class as
Hand Tools. Specific tools for specific purposes, for which a better
gizmo has not been invented, or at least the new gizmos are not
sufficiently superior to make the old style ones "obsolete". That is
to day, just as granddads Stanley wooden handled claw hammer will
still drive nails as well as the latest fiberglassed handle model, so
his lever action rifle by Winchester will still reach out an touch
someone as well as the latest high tech wonder from Firearms &
Doodads.
Which doesn't mean I don't want that polymer stocked bullpup
design from IDF, just that the 1938 Mauser still works well enough.


Boys and the price of their toys, and all that.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT

In 1973 a hurricane went through Darwin (Australia) and devestated the
place. The company I worked for had a small brewery there and it took a
pounding. Our Chief Engineer was a clever old ******* who had spent a lot of
time in the oil industy in the middle east. He sent two of our older ( mid
50's) engineers up to rebuild the place as the local engineering manager had
been evacuated. Flights into Darwin were pretty hard to obtain and had a
luggage weight restriction. The two guys that were sent up there took the
minimum in personal stuff but shared the rest of their luggage allowance
with a keg of 4" nails. The old chief said that everyone would need nails.
They were for tradeing not driving.
He was right. Beer and nails were the perfect trade goods in the situation.

On Apr 13, 7:28*am, "Grumpy" wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...

One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT

*In 1973 a hurricane went through Darwin (Australia) and devestated the
place. The company I worked for had a small brewery there and it took a
pounding. Our Chief Engineer was a clever old ******* who had spent a lot of
time in the oil industy in the middle east. He sent two of our older ( mid
50's) engineers up to rebuild the place as the local engineering manager had
been evacuated. Flights into Darwin were pretty hard to obtain and had a
luggage weight restriction. The two guys that were sent up there took the
minimum in personal stuff but shared the rest of their luggage allowance
with a keg of 4" nails. The old chief said that everyone would need nails..
They were for tradeing not driving.
*He was right. Beer and nails were the perfect trade goods in the situation.

LOL..good story.

How do you think gold in that situation would have gone over?

TMT

On Apr 12, 2:03*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:10 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools

wrote:
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT

============

IMSHO what we are currently seeing is not a "normal"
economic cycle at all, but rather the partial end result of
several foundational economic changes, i.e. there is more
and "better" to come. *

For example this appears to be a jobless "recovery," with
much of the so-called improvements resulting only from
dollar manipulation/creation by the FRB and massive
governmental deficits at all levels. *The last bubbles, real
estate and stocks/derivatives popped when "financial
engineering" met reality and the "assets" had to be
revalued. *When the US Dollar and governmental debt faces
the same test, i.e. "put up or shut up," another and far
more serious collapse will occur, with no one available [or
willing] to bail us out, even in the short term.

Thus while tools of all kinds may be valuable, both for use
and trade, a reasonable supply of firearms and ammunition
will be required to retain the tools, food, fuel, and other
emergency supplies, precious metals and trade goods you may
accumulate. *As is generally the case, the most likely
thieves are the government at all levels ala New Orleans
where they were stealing from each other [generators, fuel
supplies, radio transmission towers, etc.] in addition to
confiscating all the guns they could lay their hands on.

-- Unka George *(George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

The "stealing" that you are referring to is where the agencies that
were trying to help had no supplies.

Because of George Bush.

TMT

On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:44:12 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

On Apr 12, 2:03*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:10 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools

wrote:
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT

============

IMSHO what we are currently seeing is not a "normal"
economic cycle at all, but rather the partial end result of
several foundational economic changes, i.e. there is more
and "better" to come. *

For example this appears to be a jobless "recovery," with
much of the so-called improvements resulting only from
dollar manipulation/creation by the FRB and massive
governmental deficits at all levels. *The last bubbles, real
estate and stocks/derivatives popped when "financial
engineering" met reality and the "assets" had to be
revalued. *When the US Dollar and governmental debt faces
the same test, i.e. "put up or shut up," another and far
more serious collapse will occur, with no one available [or
willing] to bail us out, even in the short term.

Thus while tools of all kinds may be valuable, both for use
and trade, a reasonable supply of firearms and ammunition
will be required to retain the tools, food, fuel, and other
emergency supplies, precious metals and trade goods you may
accumulate. *As is generally the case, the most likely
thieves are the government at all levels ala New Orleans
where they were stealing from each other [generators, fuel
supplies, radio transmission towers, etc.] in addition to
confiscating all the guns they could lay their hands on.

-- Unka George *(George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

The "stealing" that you are referring to is where the agencies that
were trying to help had no supplies.

Because of George Bush.

TMT
===========

That is exactly the problem, except that W is long gone.
"I'm from the government and I'm here to help you -- now
where did you hide everything I need?" is more than a punch
line to an old joke.




-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

On Apr 13, 2:24*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:44:12 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools





wrote:
On Apr 12, 2:03 pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:32:10 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools

wrote:
One trend I have seen though several economic cycles is that quality
tools are a better investment than gold with holding their value,
appreciating and ability to convert into cash when needed.

Your thoughts on this curious trend?

TMT

============

IMSHO what we are currently seeing is not a "normal"
economic cycle at all, but rather the partial end result of
several foundational economic changes, i.e. there is more
and "better" to come.

For example this appears to be a jobless "recovery," with
much of the so-called improvements resulting only from
dollar manipulation/creation by the FRB and massive
governmental deficits at all levels. The last bubbles, real
estate and stocks/derivatives popped when "financial
engineering" met reality and the "assets" had to be
revalued. When the US Dollar and governmental debt faces
the same test, i.e. "put up or shut up," another and far
more serious collapse will occur, with no one available [or
willing] to bail us out, even in the short term.

Thus while tools of all kinds may be valuable, both for use
and trade, a reasonable supply of firearms and ammunition
will be required to retain the tools, food, fuel, and other
emergency supplies, precious metals and trade goods you may
accumulate. As is generally the case, the most likely
thieves are the government at all levels ala New Orleans
where they were stealing from each other [generators, fuel
supplies, radio transmission towers, etc.] in addition to
confiscating all the guns they could lay their hands on.

-- Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

The "stealing" that you are referring to is where the agencies that
were trying to help had no supplies.

Because of George Bush.

TMT

===========

That is exactly the problem, except that W is long gone.
"I'm from the government and I'm here to help you -- now
where did you hide everything I need?" is more than a punch
line to an old joke.

-- Unka George *(George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I agree.

One can look up the numbers (most I recall seeing showed 50-80% of the
stores) but most of the emergency stuff that the States had in place
along with the National Guard were sent to Iraq...and not replaced.

One way you can go around the sticky issue of funding a war...

Then Katrina happened.

Considering that the Bush Crash of '08 happened at the end of his
second term, I seriously doubt those stores have been restocked since
the Obama Administration has been forced to administer life support to
the economy since Day One.

We are living on luck...

If something like Katrina or The Big One would happen in CA or on the
Madrid Fault, we would be in serious trouble.

TMT

On Apr 13, 9:07*pm, Too_Many_Tools

We are living on luck...

If something like Katrina or The Big One would happen in CA or on the
Madrid Fault, we would be in serious trouble.

TMT

Some of us could help those that have not done anything to prepare for
a disaster. I certainly am not counting on the government for help in
a disaster.

Dan

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:55:59 -0500, Ignoramus9930
wrote:


My sense however is that the prices of tools have begun to rebound.
I"m glad I was buying the past couple of years.


I have a firm resolution to stay out of gold.

i
I bought more machines in the past 3 years than I did in the previous
30. I've upgraded my shop. I haven't bought any gold myself, but
there's some in the family. My grandparents generation hoarded a
small amount. As European immigrants, they lived through times when
their governments money was near worthless.

I'm in the process of reading about Germany in the days of the closing
of WW II and the early occupation years. For those without work,
barter was with / for food, clothing, shelter, and sex. Farmers made
out OK, except possibly in the Russian occupied areas.

On Apr 13, 8:43*pm, " wrote:
On Apr 13, 9:07*pm, Too_Many_Tools



We are living on luck...

If something like Katrina or The Big One would happen in CA or on the
Madrid Fault, we would be in serious trouble.

TMT

Some of us could help those that have not done anything to prepare for
a disaster. *I certainly am not counting on the government for help in
a disaster.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan

I agree.

But none of us privately have access to resources on the scale that a
Government has.

FWIW...anyone should have survival stores in place to survive
unassisted for days and weeks. In the ongoing Japan disaster, some
people have been isolated for over a month now...having to survive on
their own.

In such a situation, tools would matter while gold would not.

TMT

On 2011-04-14, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane wrote:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:55:59 -0500, Ignoramus9930
wrote:


My sense however is that the prices of tools have begun to rebound.
I"m glad I was buying the past couple of years.


I have a firm resolution to stay out of gold.

i
I bought more machines in the past 3 years than I did in the previous
30. I've upgraded my shop. I haven't bought any gold myself, but
there's some in the family. My grandparents generation hoarded a
small amount. As European immigrants, they lived through times when
their governments money was near worthless.

Same here.

I'm in the process of reading about Germany in the days of the closing
of WW II and the early occupation years. For those without work,
barter was with / for food, clothing, shelter, and sex. Farmers made
out OK, except possibly in the Russian occupied areas.

Exactly.

i

On Apr 14, 8:04*am, Ignoramus10155 ignoramus10...@NOSPAM.
10155.invalid wrote:
On 2011-04-14, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane wrote:





On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:55:59 -0500, Ignoramus9930
wrote:

My sense however is that the prices of tools have begun to rebound.
I"m glad I was buying the past couple of years. *

I have a firm resolution to stay out of gold.

i
I bought more machines in the past 3 years than I did in the previous
30. *I've upgraded my shop. *I haven't bought any gold myself, but
there's some in the family. *My grandparents generation hoarded a
small amount. *As European immigrants, they lived through times when
their governments money was near worthless. *

Same here.

I'm in the process of reading about Germany in the days of the closing
of WW II and the early occupation years. *For those without work,
barter was with / for food, clothing, shelter, and sex. *Farmers made
out OK, except possibly in the Russian occupied areas.

Exactly.

i- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I also agree.

I that happening today with the economy.

I am aware of a number of people who are exchanging services/goods
that they would have paid for in cash just a few years ago.

TMT

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:06:47 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

On Apr 14, 8:04*am, Ignoramus10155 ignoramus10...@NOSPAM.
10155.invalid wrote:
On 2011-04-14, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane wrote:





On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:55:59 -0500, Ignoramus9930
wrote:

My sense however is that the prices of tools have begun to rebound.
I"m glad I was buying the past couple of years. *

I have a firm resolution to stay out of gold.

i
I bought more machines in the past 3 years than I did in the previous
30. *I've upgraded my shop. *I haven't bought any gold myself, but
there's some in the family. *My grandparents generation hoarded a
small amount. *As European immigrants, they lived through times when
their governments money was near worthless. *

Same here.

I'm in the process of reading about Germany in the days of the closing
of WW II and the early occupation years. *For those without work,
barter was with / for food, clothing, shelter, and sex. *Farmers made
out OK, except possibly in the Russian occupied areas.

Exactly.

i- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I also agree.

I that happening today with the economy.

I am aware of a number of people who are exchanging services/goods
that they would have paid for in cash just a few years ago.

TMT

Hang on to your tools because if you were thinking you could trade sex
for food, you and your fat ugly mommies would starve to death.

On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:17:34 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Apr 12, 3:03*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
...
...As is generally the case, the most likely
thieves are the government at all levels ala New Orleans
where they were stealing from each other [generators, fuel
supplies, radio transmission towers, etc.] in addition to
confiscating all the guns they could lay their hands on.

-- Unka George *(George McDuffee)

Why didn't we hear about this government breakdown and FEMA failures
whenever hurricanes devastated Florida?

jsw

Because Florida, Missisppie, Georgia were not run by brain dead
Leftwingers like New Orleans was.

Shrug

Fact of life

Gunner

--
"If I say two plus two is four and a Democrat says two plus two is eight,
it's not a partial victory for me when we agree that two plus two is
six. " Jonah Goldberg (modified)

On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 18:43:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Apr 13, 9:07*pm, Too_Many_Tools

We are living on luck...

If something like Katrina or The Big One would happen in CA or on the
Madrid Fault, we would be in serious trouble.

TMT

Some of us could help those that have not done anything to prepare for
a disaster. I certainly am not counting on the government for help in
a disaster.

Dan

Well...some of you would be in deep ****.

Ive been a practicing survivalist since before the 1983 Coalinga
Earthquake took down my town.

And I fed and provided shelter for the residents of my block for almost
2 weeks before the government got their **** together.

Ive improved my preps a bit since then.

Gunner

--
"If I say two plus two is four and a Democrat says two plus two is eight,
it's not a partial victory for me when we agree that two plus two is
six. " Jonah Goldberg (modified)