"You could say, as many do, that shipping jobs overseas is no big deal
because the high-value work -- and much of the profits -- remain in the U.S.
That may well be so. But what kind of a society are we going to have if it
consists of highly paid people doing high-value-added work -- and masses of
unemployed?

Consider this passage by Princeton University economist Alan S. Blinder:
"The TV manufacturing industry really started here, and at one point
employed many workers. But as TV sets became 'just a commodity,' their
production moved offshore to locations with much lower wages. And nowadays
the number of television sets manufactured in the U.S. is zero. A failure?
No, a success."

I disagree. Not only did we lose an untold number of jobs, we broke the
chain of experience that is so important in technological evolution. As
happened with batteries, abandoning today's "commodity" manufacturing can
lock you out of tomorrow's emerging industry.


The first task is to rebuild our industrial commons. We should develop a
system of financial incentives: Levy an extra tax on the product of
offshored labor. (If the result is a trade war, treat it like other wars --
fight to win.) Keep that money separate. Deposit it in the coffers of what
we might call the Scaling Bank of the U.S. and make these sums available to
companies that will scale their American operations. Such a system would be
a daily reminder that while pursuing our company goals, all of us in
business have a responsibility to maintain the industrial base on which we
depend and the society whose adaptability -- and stability -- we may have
taken for granted."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...ndy-grove.html

Seems some people are begining to think that steering america towards a
service based eccomony
may be the biggest blunder in the last 30 years. The theory has not lived up
to reality, in fact we are now
feeling the effects. Trickle down theory has left most americans living
under wall streets dinner table
getting ****ed on by wall street bankers as thier jobs are be sent off
shore, grobbling for the crumbs
that fall off the bailout table.

Best Regards
Tom.

On 07/06/2010 03:50 AM, azotic wrote:

"You could say, as many do, that shipping jobs overseas is no big deal
because the high-value work -- and much of the profits -- remain in the
U.S. That may well be so. But what kind of a society are we going to
have if it consists of highly paid people doing high-value-added work --
and masses of unemployed?

Consider this passage by Princeton University economist Alan S. Blinder:
"The TV manufacturing industry really started here, and at one point
employed many workers. But as TV sets became 'just a commodity,' their
production moved offshore to locations with much lower wages. And
nowadays the number of television sets manufactured in the U.S. is zero.
A failure? No, a success."

I disagree. Not only did we lose an untold number of jobs, we broke the
chain of experience that is so important in technological evolution. As
happened with batteries, abandoning today's "commodity" manufacturing
can lock you out of tomorrow's emerging industry.


The first task is to rebuild our industrial commons. We should develop a
system of financial incentives: Levy an extra tax on the product of
offshored labor. (If the result is a trade war, treat it like other wars
-- fight to win.) Keep that money separate. Deposit it in the coffers of
what we might call the Scaling Bank of the U.S. and make these sums
available to companies that will scale their American operations. Such a
system would be a daily reminder that while pursuing our company goals,
all of us in business have a responsibility to maintain the industrial
base on which we depend and the society whose adaptability -- and
stability -- we may have taken for granted."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...ndy-grove.html


Seems some people are begining to think that steering america towards a
service based eccomony
may be the biggest blunder in the last 30 years. The theory has not
lived up to reality, in fact we are now
feeling the effects. Trickle down theory has left most americans living
under wall streets dinner table
getting ****ed on by wall street bankers as thier jobs are be sent off
shore, grobbling for the crumbs
that fall off the bailout table.

Best Regards
Tom.

How about something even more basic: Make it so that I can hire just
one employee. Right now if I hire one to do work, I have to hire
another one to check all the rules, cover my ass, fill out forms,
withhold wages, etc., etc., etc.

So I'm just not going to hire the one, unless I get a clear and present
opportunity to hire two or three at once. Even then I'll hesitate.
Think about that.

Granted, I could do what most small business owners do, and just try to
muddle through without reading that stack of regulations that's bigger
than my living room. But I'd much rather be a single contributor,
limiting my business to what I can do personally, than to ever hassle
with all the crap I'd have to go through to hire

just

one

person.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Tim Wescott wrote:
On 07/06/2010 03:50 AM, azotic wrote:

"You could say, as many do, that shipping jobs overseas is no big deal
because the high-value work -- and much of the profits -- remain in the
U.S. That may well be so. But what kind of a society are we going to
have if it consists of highly paid people doing high-value-added work --
and masses of unemployed?

Consider this passage by Princeton University economist Alan S. Blinder:
"The TV manufacturing industry really started here, and at one point
employed many workers. But as TV sets became 'just a commodity,' their
production moved offshore to locations with much lower wages. And
nowadays the number of television sets manufactured in the U.S. is zero.
A failure? No, a success."

I disagree. Not only did we lose an untold number of jobs, we broke the
chain of experience that is so important in technological evolution. As
happened with batteries, abandoning today's "commodity" manufacturing
can lock you out of tomorrow's emerging industry.


The first task is to rebuild our industrial commons. We should develop a
system of financial incentives: Levy an extra tax on the product of
offshored labor. (If the result is a trade war, treat it like other wars
-- fight to win.) Keep that money separate. Deposit it in the coffers of
what we might call the Scaling Bank of the U.S. and make these sums
available to companies that will scale their American operations. Such a
system would be a daily reminder that while pursuing our company goals,
all of us in business have a responsibility to maintain the industrial
base on which we depend and the society whose adaptability -- and
stability -- we may have taken for granted."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...ndy-grove.html



Seems some people are begining to think that steering america towards a
service based eccomony
may be the biggest blunder in the last 30 years. The theory has not
lived up to reality, in fact we are now
feeling the effects. Trickle down theory has left most americans living
under wall streets dinner table
getting ****ed on by wall street bankers as thier jobs are be sent off
shore, grobbling for the crumbs
that fall off the bailout table.

Best Regards
Tom.

How about something even more basic: Make it so that I can hire just
one employee. Right now if I hire one to do work, I have to hire
another one to check all the rules, cover my ass, fill out forms,
withhold wages, etc., etc., etc.

So I'm just not going to hire the one, unless I get a clear and present
opportunity to hire two or three at once. Even then I'll hesitate.
Think about that.

Granted, I could do what most small business owners do, and just try to
muddle through without reading that stack of regulations that's bigger
than my living room. But I'd much rather be a single contributor,
limiting my business to what I can do personally, than to ever hassle
with all the crap I'd have to go through to hire

just

one

person.



Sounds like the one person you need to hire would be - a lawyer!
Who, unfortunately, would not do any productive work...

--

Richard Lamb

cavelamb wrote:
Tim Wescott wrote:
On 07/06/2010 03:50 AM, azotic wrote:

"You could say, as many do, that shipping jobs overseas is no big deal
because the high-value work -- and much of the profits -- remain in the
U.S. That may well be so. But what kind of a society are we going to
have if it consists of highly paid people doing high-value-added work --
and masses of unemployed?

Consider this passage by Princeton University economist Alan S. Blinder:
"The TV manufacturing industry really started here, and at one point
employed many workers. But as TV sets became 'just a commodity,' their
production moved offshore to locations with much lower wages. And
nowadays the number of television sets manufactured in the U.S. is zero.
A failure? No, a success."

I disagree. Not only did we lose an untold number of jobs, we broke the
chain of experience that is so important in technological evolution. As
happened with batteries, abandoning today's "commodity" manufacturing
can lock you out of tomorrow's emerging industry.


The first task is to rebuild our industrial commons. We should develop a
system of financial incentives: Levy an extra tax on the product of
offshored labor. (If the result is a trade war, treat it like other wars
-- fight to win.) Keep that money separate. Deposit it in the coffers of
what we might call the Scaling Bank of the U.S. and make these sums
available to companies that will scale their American operations. Such a
system would be a daily reminder that while pursuing our company goals,
all of us in business have a responsibility to maintain the industrial
base on which we depend and the society whose adaptability -- and
stability -- we may have taken for granted."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...ndy-grove.html



Seems some people are begining to think that steering america towards a
service based eccomony
may be the biggest blunder in the last 30 years. The theory has not
lived up to reality, in fact we are now
feeling the effects. Trickle down theory has left most americans living
under wall streets dinner table
getting ****ed on by wall street bankers as thier jobs are be sent off
shore, grobbling for the crumbs
that fall off the bailout table.

Best Regards
Tom.

How about something even more basic: Make it so that I can hire just
one employee. Right now if I hire one to do work, I have to hire
another one to check all the rules, cover my ass, fill out forms,
withhold wages, etc., etc., etc.

So I'm just not going to hire the one, unless I get a clear and
present opportunity to hire two or three at once. Even then I'll
hesitate. Think about that.

Granted, I could do what most small business owners do, and just try
to muddle through without reading that stack of regulations that's
bigger than my living room. But I'd much rather be a single
contributor, limiting my business to what I can do personally, than to
ever hassle with all the crap I'd have to go through to hire

just

one

person.



Sounds like the one person you need to hire would be - a lawyer!
Who, unfortunately, would not do any productive work...

But who would in turn need assistants to handle the regulatory forms.

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...
Tim Wescott wrote:
On 07/06/2010 03:50 AM, azotic wrote:

Sounds like the one person you need to hire would be - a lawyer!
Who, unfortunately, would not do any productive work...

--

Richard Lamb

Boy do we understand. We produce a magazine that generates more than
$18,000 into the local economy. Also the USPS gets about $3600 from us.
Well the #%@^ USPS has been our biggest problem in producing and delivering
the magazine. We just spent a couple of hours going over botched
deliveries. Now the USPS has just handed us a pile of forms to fill out and
even gave us a deadline. They already have all of this information and all
that would be needed is a simple statement of "No Changes". No they want
this big pile of forms filled out again. Well we will go all electronic and
tell the USPS to go play with themselves. We didn't want to do this as a
bunch of our subscribers like the full color printed "Coffee Table" quality
magazine. But our bureaucracy bucket just overflowed. Minor impact to the
employment picture here but the $18,000 might just be the buck that broke
some small business out.

Stu

On 07/06/2010 11:48 AM, cavelamb wrote:
Tim Wescott wrote:
On 07/06/2010 03:50 AM, azotic wrote:

"You could say, as many do, that shipping jobs overseas is no big deal
because the high-value work -- and much of the profits -- remain in the
U.S. That may well be so. But what kind of a society are we going to
have if it consists of highly paid people doing high-value-added work --
and masses of unemployed?

Consider this passage by Princeton University economist Alan S. Blinder:
"The TV manufacturing industry really started here, and at one point
employed many workers. But as TV sets became 'just a commodity,' their
production moved offshore to locations with much lower wages. And
nowadays the number of television sets manufactured in the U.S. is zero.
A failure? No, a success."

I disagree. Not only did we lose an untold number of jobs, we broke the
chain of experience that is so important in technological evolution. As
happened with batteries, abandoning today's "commodity" manufacturing
can lock you out of tomorrow's emerging industry.


The first task is to rebuild our industrial commons. We should develop a
system of financial incentives: Levy an extra tax on the product of
offshored labor. (If the result is a trade war, treat it like other wars
-- fight to win.) Keep that money separate. Deposit it in the coffers of
what we might call the Scaling Bank of the U.S. and make these sums
available to companies that will scale their American operations. Such a
system would be a daily reminder that while pursuing our company goals,
all of us in business have a responsibility to maintain the industrial
base on which we depend and the society whose adaptability -- and
stability -- we may have taken for granted."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...ndy-grove.html



Seems some people are begining to think that steering america towards a
service based eccomony
may be the biggest blunder in the last 30 years. The theory has not
lived up to reality, in fact we are now
feeling the effects. Trickle down theory has left most americans living
under wall streets dinner table
getting ****ed on by wall street bankers as thier jobs are be sent off
shore, grobbling for the crumbs
that fall off the bailout table.

Best Regards
Tom.

How about something even more basic: Make it so that I can hire just
one employee. Right now if I hire one to do work, I have to hire
another one to check all the rules, cover my ass, fill out forms,
withhold wages, etc., etc., etc.

So I'm just not going to hire the one, unless I get a clear and
present opportunity to hire two or three at once. Even then I'll
hesitate. Think about that.

Granted, I could do what most small business owners do, and just try
to muddle through without reading that stack of regulations that's
bigger than my living room. But I'd much rather be a single
contributor, limiting my business to what I can do personally, than to
ever hassle with all the crap I'd have to go through to hire

just

one

person.



Sounds like the one person you need to hire would be - a lawyer!
Who, unfortunately, would not do any productive work...

Which is my point -- if I want to hire just one person for productive
work _and_ stay within the confines of all due regulations I can't. Or
at least I can't without either taking a huge hit to my own
productivity, contracting the HR work out (it can be done, but there's
still a productivity hit), or blithely ignoring a bunch of regulations
that may or may not bite me down the road.

All the rules are written with the assumption that employers are
self-centered, evil, and have infinitely deep pockets. That describes
large corporations pretty well, but when you get down to small
businesses the "deep pockets" definition goes right out the window, and
"self-centered" and "evil" only apply to a nasty few, not the majority.

There's got to be a way to find some middle ground so that I don't have
toxic waste from some neighbor flowing across my land, yet I still have
a way to spread my wealth to happy employees without turning into an
unpaid cop* and bureaucrat for every government entity whose territory I
happen to be in.

* And Gunner, before you start cackling with glee -- if I hire someone
then _I_ have to make sure that they're not an illegal immigrant; _I_
have to get all their documentation and keep it on file -- even if
they're one of the two boys whose births I was present at, or one of my
nieces or nephews who I've watched grow up. Furthermore, if I want to
sell to the government, or to a government supplier, _I_ have to be the
asshole that sends my employees off to drug testing and then fires them
if they don't pass. So it's not just "those damn liberals" that put
this burden on me.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 7/6/2010 9:19 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 07/06/2010 03:50 AM, azotic wrote:

"You could say, as many do, that shipping jobs overseas is no big deal
because the high-value work -- and much of the profits -- remain in the
U.S. That may well be so. But what kind of a society are we going to
have if it consists of highly paid people doing high-value-added work --
and masses of unemployed?

Consider this passage by Princeton University economist Alan S. Blinder:
"The TV manufacturing industry really started here, and at one point
employed many workers. But as TV sets became 'just a commodity,' their
production moved offshore to locations with much lower wages. And
nowadays the number of television sets manufactured in the U.S. is zero.
A failure? No, a success."

I disagree. Not only did we lose an untold number of jobs, we broke the
chain of experience that is so important in technological evolution. As
happened with batteries, abandoning today's "commodity" manufacturing
can lock you out of tomorrow's emerging industry.


The first task is to rebuild our industrial commons. We should develop a
system of financial incentives: Levy an extra tax on the product of
offshored labor. (If the result is a trade war, treat it like other wars
-- fight to win.) Keep that money separate. Deposit it in the coffers of
what we might call the Scaling Bank of the U.S. and make these sums
available to companies that will scale their American operations. Such a
system would be a daily reminder that while pursuing our company goals,
all of us in business have a responsibility to maintain the industrial
base on which we depend and the society whose adaptability -- and
stability -- we may have taken for granted."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...ndy-grove.html



Seems some people are begining to think that steering america towards a
service based eccomony
may be the biggest blunder in the last 30 years. The theory has not
lived up to reality, in fact we are now
feeling the effects. Trickle down theory has left most americans living
under wall streets dinner table
getting ****ed on by wall street bankers as thier jobs are be sent off
shore, grobbling for the crumbs
that fall off the bailout table.

Best Regards
Tom.

How about something even more basic: Make it so that I can hire just one
employee. Right now if I hire one to do work, I have to hire another one
to check all the rules, cover my ass, fill out forms, withhold wages,
etc., etc., etc.

So I'm just not going to hire the one, unless I get a clear and present
opportunity to hire two or three at once. Even then I'll hesitate. Think
about that.

Granted, I could do what most small business owners do, and just try to
muddle through without reading that stack of regulations that's bigger
than my living room. But I'd much rather be a single contributor,
limiting my business to what I can do personally, than to ever hassle
with all the crap I'd have to go through to hire

just

one

person.



It's just a guess but I would bet that instead of hiring one new worker
to work and one to handle paperwork the truth is you don't have enough
business to hire a new employee, let alone two. I've maintained all
along the reason businesses aren't hiring is simple. They don't need
them. Their businesses are not growing enough to need any more workers.
As long as business is down you don't need new hires. The reason
business is down is because of what happened due to the Bush/Cheney
economic meltdown. That made so many Americans poorer and so many
unemployed that most businesses just don't have the customers they used
to have. So they don't need any more workers. Henry Ford knew it years
ago. If you don't have a public with money to spend on your product your
business isn't going to grow. Americans are all poorer than they were
when Bush took over. It's only been a year and a half since Obama has
been working to fix the problems. It's going to take a long longer than
that.

Hawke

On 07/06/2010 12:53 PM, Hawke wrote:
On 7/6/2010 9:19 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On 07/06/2010 03:50 AM, azotic wrote:

"You could say, as many do, that shipping jobs overseas is no big deal
because the high-value work -- and much of the profits -- remain in the
U.S. That may well be so. But what kind of a society are we going to
have if it consists of highly paid people doing high-value-added work --
and masses of unemployed?

Consider this passage by Princeton University economist Alan S. Blinder:
"The TV manufacturing industry really started here, and at one point
employed many workers. But as TV sets became 'just a commodity,' their
production moved offshore to locations with much lower wages. And
nowadays the number of television sets manufactured in the U.S. is zero.
A failure? No, a success."

I disagree. Not only did we lose an untold number of jobs, we broke the
chain of experience that is so important in technological evolution. As
happened with batteries, abandoning today's "commodity" manufacturing
can lock you out of tomorrow's emerging industry.


The first task is to rebuild our industrial commons. We should develop a
system of financial incentives: Levy an extra tax on the product of
offshored labor. (If the result is a trade war, treat it like other wars
-- fight to win.) Keep that money separate. Deposit it in the coffers of
what we might call the Scaling Bank of the U.S. and make these sums
available to companies that will scale their American operations. Such a
system would be a daily reminder that while pursuing our company goals,
all of us in business have a responsibility to maintain the industrial
base on which we depend and the society whose adaptability -- and
stability -- we may have taken for granted."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...ndy-grove.html




Seems some people are begining to think that steering america towards a
service based eccomony
may be the biggest blunder in the last 30 years. The theory has not
lived up to reality, in fact we are now
feeling the effects. Trickle down theory has left most americans living
under wall streets dinner table
getting ****ed on by wall street bankers as thier jobs are be sent off
shore, grobbling for the crumbs
that fall off the bailout table.

Best Regards
Tom.

How about something even more basic: Make it so that I can hire just one
employee. Right now if I hire one to do work, I have to hire another one
to check all the rules, cover my ass, fill out forms, withhold wages,
etc., etc., etc.

So I'm just not going to hire the one, unless I get a clear and present
opportunity to hire two or three at once. Even then I'll hesitate. Think
about that.

Granted, I could do what most small business owners do, and just try to
muddle through without reading that stack of regulations that's bigger
than my living room. But I'd much rather be a single contributor,
limiting my business to what I can do personally, than to ever hassle
with all the crap I'd have to go through to hire

just

one

person.



It's just a guess but I would bet that instead of hiring one new worker
to work and one to handle paperwork the truth is you don't have enough
business to hire a new employee, let alone two. I've maintained all
along the reason businesses aren't hiring is simple. They don't need
them. Their businesses are not growing enough to need any more workers.
As long as business is down you don't need new hires. The reason
business is down is because of what happened due to the Bush/Cheney
economic meltdown. That made so many Americans poorer and so many
unemployed that most businesses just don't have the customers they used
to have. So they don't need any more workers. Henry Ford knew it years
ago. If you don't have a public with money to spend on your product your
business isn't going to grow. Americans are all poorer than they were
when Bush took over. It's only been a year and a half since Obama has
been working to fix the problems. It's going to take a long longer than
that.

Well, gee. Thanks for the economics lesson. Perhaps you could instruct
me on basic arithmetic next.

I had opportunities to expand long before the meltdown, and I've walked
away from them because -- having other family members who have employees
-- I know what a pain in the behind it is. So in _my_ case the
Bush/Cheney meltdown has _nothing_ to do with my lack of inclination to
generate a job or two.

Given that, I fail to see how raising the barriers to small business --
which is what is going to generate jobs in an economy where no one can
borrow squat -- is going to increase jobs. Living in Oregon where we've
had hippie-dippy governors trying to attract "green jobs" since 2001
without stemming the ebb of jobs doesn't exactly give me much faith in
Obama's retreads.

The dude is flailing. He delivers a much better speech than Bush does,
so he's not flailing as obviously. He's more up on what's hip in
environmental circles, so his solutions sound like speeches I've been
hearing since the '90's, instead of speeches that I heard back in the
'70's. But he's still flailing, and as long as we have administrations
and congresses that think that real wealth flows from service businesses
stuffed full of incompetents with Master's degrees rather than companies
where real people put their hands on real goods, then we're going down
the tubes.

And I don't see either the wackos from the left _or_ the wackos from the
right fixing that, because -- as I stated -- they're all in the pockets
of a big this or a big that. Until the model changes away from "how can
we help great big companies save the country?" improvement will come in
spite of the politicians, not because of it.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Hawke wrote:
Americans
are all poorer than they were when Bush took over. It's only been a
year and a half since Obama has been working to fix the problems.
It's going to take a long longer than that.

Hawke

You stupid asshole , it wasn't Bush , it wasn't Carter , it wasn't Clinton
.. It was *ALL* the politicians that did this to us . They have sold our
country out to the special interests who filled their pockets with money .
Greed and corruption from the lowliest city councilman to Speaker of the
house . They're *ALL* corrupt , and they *ALL* need to be replaced with
honest people who will do as our founding fathers intended - serve one term
, then go back home to your job or profession .
--
Snag
Got Guns ?

Tim Wescott wrote:

* And Gunner, before you start cackling with glee -- if I hire someone
then _I_ have to make sure that they're not an illegal immigrant; _I_
have to get all their documentation and keep it on file -- even if
they're one of the two boys whose births I was present at, or one of my
nieces or nephews who I've watched grow up. Furthermore, if I want to
sell to the government, or to a government supplier, _I_ have to be the
asshole that sends my employees off to drug testing and then fires them
if they don't pass. So it's not just "those damn liberals" that put
this burden on me.


So are you saying the government that found a right to privacy covering abortion, requires
blood lead level tests to be sent to the state in my state, doesn't think my body and its
fluids are covered by that same right to privacy?

I *thought* OSHA regs cut in a something like = 7 employees. Of course all the other
crap I have no idea at all. What is your workmans comp rate for one employee? Then you
have to pay futa and suta. I worked for a company that had to provide this info on 9
track tape because we had too many employees. We had internet, we had 4MM dat, CDROM and
8 mm Dat at the time. Can't upload by modem or website, gotta burn a 1600 BPI tape. So I
had a very lightly used tape drive with a dedicated pc that I cut tapes every quarter on.
So Tim, are you becoming a smaller government advocate?

I've said this before, we had the Pentagon ready to occupy in 11 months and finished in 17
months during a war. We couldn't do it now. Too may lawsuits, enviromental impact
statements, union hold ups, regulatory battles.

Wes

On 07/06/2010 02:30 PM, Wes wrote:
Tim wrote:

* And Gunner, before you start cackling with glee -- if I hire someone
then _I_ have to make sure that they're not an illegal immigrant; _I_
have to get all their documentation and keep it on file -- even if
they're one of the two boys whose births I was present at, or one of my
nieces or nephews who I've watched grow up. Furthermore, if I want to
sell to the government, or to a government supplier, _I_ have to be the
asshole that sends my employees off to drug testing and then fires them
if they don't pass. So it's not just "those damn liberals" that put
this burden on me.


So are you saying the government that found a right to privacy covering abortion, requires
blood lead level tests to be sent to the state in my state, doesn't think my body and its
fluids are covered by that same right to privacy?

I *thought* OSHA regs cut in a something like= 7 employees. Of course all the other
crap I have no idea at all. What is your workmans comp rate for one employee? Then you
have to pay futa and suta.

I scratched the surface of this enough to know how many forms I had to
fill out, and I stopped thinking about expanding.

I worked for a company that had to provide this info on 9
track tape because we had too many employees. We had internet, we had 4MM dat, CDROM and
8 mm Dat at the time. Can't upload by modem or website, gotta burn a 1600 BPI tape. So I
had a very lightly used tape drive with a dedicated pc that I cut tapes every quarter on.
So Tim, are you becoming a smaller government advocate?

No, I'm not becoming one -- I never stopped being one.

I'm just not a "give the country to the corporations" advocate, like
Bush, Cheney & Palin. Nor am I a "give the country to the unions"
advocate like the Democrats.

I've said this before, we had the Pentagon ready to occupy in 11 months and finished in 17
months during a war. We couldn't do it now. Too may lawsuits, enviromental impact
statements, union hold ups, regulatory battles.

Yup.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 07/06/2010 02:22 PM, Snag wrote:
Hawke wrote:
Americans
are all poorer than they were when Bush took over. It's only been a
year and a half since Obama has been working to fix the problems.
It's going to take a long longer than that.

Hawke

You stupid asshole , it wasn't Bush , it wasn't Carter , it wasn't Clinton
. It was *ALL* the politicians that did this to us . They have sold our
country out to the special interests who filled their pockets with money .

Of course "we" (i.e. all of us citizens, if not you and I in particular)
are letting it happen.

As long as our collective idea of fun is to sit drooling in front of a
great mind-sucking piece of video entertainment instead of paying
attention to what's going on and who's pushing it, it'll keep happening.

Greed and corruption from the lowliest city councilman to Speaker of the
house . They're *ALL* corrupt , and they *ALL* need to be replaced with
honest people who will do as our founding fathers intended - serve one term
, then go back home to your job or profession .

Do you have a quote from a founding father to back that up? AFAIK many
if not most of them were career politicians.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Tim Wescott wrote:

On 07/06/2010 02:30 PM, Wes wrote:
Tim wrote:

* And Gunner, before you start cackling with glee -- if I hire someone
then _I_ have to make sure that they're not an illegal immigrant; _I_
have to get all their documentation and keep it on file -- even if
they're one of the two boys whose births I was present at, or one of my
nieces or nephews who I've watched grow up. Furthermore, if I want to
sell to the government, or to a government supplier, _I_ have to be the
asshole that sends my employees off to drug testing and then fires them
if they don't pass. So it's not just "those damn liberals" that put
this burden on me.


So are you saying the government that found a right to privacy covering abortion, requires
blood lead level tests to be sent to the state in my state, doesn't think my body and its
fluids are covered by that same right to privacy?

I *thought* OSHA regs cut in a something like= 7 employees. Of course all the other
crap I have no idea at all. What is your workmans comp rate for one employee? Then you
have to pay futa and suta.

I scratched the surface of this enough to know how many forms I had to
fill out, and I stopped thinking about expanding.

That is so sad. Somewhere there is someone that likely would like working for you.

I worked for a company that had to provide this info on 9
track tape because we had too many employees. We had internet, we had 4MM dat, CDROM and
8 mm Dat at the time. Can't upload by modem or website, gotta burn a 1600 BPI tape. So I
had a very lightly used tape drive with a dedicated pc that I cut tapes every quarter on.
So Tim, are you becoming a smaller government advocate?

No, I'm not becoming one -- I never stopped being one.

I wasn't one until I saw how bad it has gone.


I'm just not a "give the country to the corporations" advocate, like
Bush, Cheney & Palin. Nor am I a "give the country to the unions"
advocate like the Democrats.

That is an excellent balance. I tend to vote right but I value fights from the left when
those are on values I have.

Outside of the military, I've always worked for corporations. They seem to have enough
scale to provide decent benefits as far as health and pension. I'd hate to work at a gas
station or grocery store. Those employers keep people at under 35 hours a week and depend
on people that are getting earned income and WIC support. Corporate welfare isn't as
pervasive as some areas of the service sector. We have a cleaning crew where I work, only
the owners are full time with benefits. We hired one of the cleaners to work production.
It will be a step up the economic ladder for that lady.





I've said this before, we had the Pentagon ready to occupy in 11 months and finished in 17
months during a war. We couldn't do it now. Too may lawsuits, enviromental impact
statements, union hold ups, regulatory battles.

Yup.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Snag wrote:
Hawke wrote:
Americans
are all poorer than they were when Bush took over. It's only been a
year and a half since Obama has been working to fix the problems.
It's going to take a long longer than that.

Hawke

You stupid asshole , it wasn't Bush , it wasn't Carter , it wasn't Clinton
. It was *ALL* the politicians that did this to us . They have sold our
country out to the special interests who filled their pockets with money .
Greed and corruption from the lowliest city councilman to Speaker of the
house . They're *ALL* corrupt , and they *ALL* need to be replaced with
honest people who will do as our founding fathers intended - serve one term
, then go back home to your job or profession .


Aw, it's the system that's corrupt.
Special interest lobbying for special interest.
With buckets of money to buy "access" to government.


What our founding fathers intended was for us to scrap this
when it became untenable and start over out west.


--

Richard Lamb

On 07/06/2010 04:38 PM, cavelamb wrote:
Snag wrote:
Hawke wrote:
Americans
are all poorer than they were when Bush took over. It's only been a
year and a half since Obama has been working to fix the problems.
It's going to take a long longer than that.

Hawke

You stupid asshole , it wasn't Bush , it wasn't Carter , it wasn't
Clinton . It was *ALL* the politicians that did this to us . They have
sold our country out to the special interests who filled their pockets
with money .
Greed and corruption from the lowliest city councilman to Speaker of
the house . They're *ALL* corrupt , and they *ALL* need to be replaced
with honest people who will do as our founding fathers intended -
serve one term , then go back home to your job or profession .


Aw, it's the system that's corrupt.
Special interest lobbying for special interest.
With buckets of money to buy "access" to government.


What our founding fathers intended was for us to scrap this
when it became untenable and start over out west.

I'm in the Willamette valley -- if I go much farther west I'll be in
salt water.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Tim Wescott wrote:
On 07/06/2010 02:22 PM, Snag wrote:

Greed and corruption from the lowliest city councilman to Speaker
of the house . They're *ALL* corrupt , and they *ALL* need to be
replaced with honest people who will do as our founding fathers
intended - serve one term , then go back home to your job or
profession .

Do you have a quote from a founding father to back that up? AFAIK
many if not most of them were career politicians.


I believe I read that in the works of Ben Franklin . Been a LOOOOONG time
ago , like high school , but that stuck with me . Or the Federalist Papers
maybe ??
Another of his sayings that I wholeheartedly endorse is "Beer is God's way
of telling us that he loves us and wants us to be happy." (might not be
exact , but pretty close) .
--
Snag
Got Guns ?

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...
Snag wrote:
Hawke wrote:
Americans
are all poorer than they were when Bush took over. It's only been a
year and a half since Obama has been working to fix the problems.
It's going to take a long longer than that.

Hawke

You stupid asshole , it wasn't Bush , it wasn't Carter , it wasn't
Clinton . It was *ALL* the politicians that did this to us . They have
sold our country out to the special interests who filled their pockets
with money .
Greed and corruption from the lowliest city councilman to Speaker of
the house . They're *ALL* corrupt , and they *ALL* need to be replaced
with honest people who will do as our founding fathers intended - serve
one term , then go back home to your job or profession .


Aw, it's the system that's corrupt.
Special interest lobbying for special interest.
With buckets of money to buy "access" to government.


What our founding fathers intended was for us to scrap this
when it became untenable and start over out west.

Out West?? They obviously didn't know about California!!!

Stu Fields wrote:
"cavelamb" wrote in message
...
Snag wrote:
Hawke wrote:
Americans
are all poorer than they were when Bush took over. It's only been a
year and a half since Obama has been working to fix the problems.
It's going to take a long longer than that.

Hawke
You stupid asshole , it wasn't Bush , it wasn't Carter , it wasn't
Clinton . It was *ALL* the politicians that did this to us . They have
sold our country out to the special interests who filled their pockets
with money .
Greed and corruption from the lowliest city councilman to Speaker of
the house . They're *ALL* corrupt , and they *ALL* need to be replaced
with honest people who will do as our founding fathers intended - serve
one term , then go back home to your job or profession .

Aw, it's the system that's corrupt.
Special interest lobbying for special interest.
With buckets of money to buy "access" to government.


What our founding fathers intended was for us to scrap this
when it became untenable and start over out west.

Out West?? They obviously didn't know about California!!!



lol!

How about Kansas City?
They've already been bombed.


--

Richard Lamb

On Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:33:24 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 07/06/2010 11:48 AM, cavelamb wrote:
Tim Wescott wrote:
On 07/06/2010 03:50 AM, azotic wrote:

"You could say, as many do, that shipping jobs overseas is no big deal
because the high-value work -- and much of the profits -- remain in the
U.S. That may well be so. But what kind of a society are we going to
have if it consists of highly paid people doing high-value-added work --
and masses of unemployed?

Consider this passage by Princeton University economist Alan S. Blinder:
"The TV manufacturing industry really started here, and at one point
employed many workers. But as TV sets became 'just a commodity,' their
production moved offshore to locations with much lower wages. And
nowadays the number of television sets manufactured in the U.S. is zero.
A failure? No, a success."

I disagree. Not only did we lose an untold number of jobs, we broke the
chain of experience that is so important in technological evolution. As
happened with batteries, abandoning today's "commodity" manufacturing
can lock you out of tomorrow's emerging industry.


The first task is to rebuild our industrial commons. We should develop a
system of financial incentives: Levy an extra tax on the product of
offshored labor. (If the result is a trade war, treat it like other wars
-- fight to win.) Keep that money separate. Deposit it in the coffers of
what we might call the Scaling Bank of the U.S. and make these sums
available to companies that will scale their American operations. Such a
system would be a daily reminder that while pursuing our company goals,
all of us in business have a responsibility to maintain the industrial
base on which we depend and the society whose adaptability -- and
stability -- we may have taken for granted."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...ndy-grove.html



Seems some people are begining to think that steering america towards a
service based eccomony
may be the biggest blunder in the last 30 years. The theory has not
lived up to reality, in fact we are now
feeling the effects. Trickle down theory has left most americans living
under wall streets dinner table
getting ****ed on by wall street bankers as thier jobs are be sent off
shore, grobbling for the crumbs
that fall off the bailout table.

Best Regards
Tom.

How about something even more basic: Make it so that I can hire just
one employee. Right now if I hire one to do work, I have to hire
another one to check all the rules, cover my ass, fill out forms,
withhold wages, etc., etc., etc.

So I'm just not going to hire the one, unless I get a clear and
present opportunity to hire two or three at once. Even then I'll
hesitate. Think about that.

Granted, I could do what most small business owners do, and just try
to muddle through without reading that stack of regulations that's
bigger than my living room. But I'd much rather be a single
contributor, limiting my business to what I can do personally, than to
ever hassle with all the crap I'd have to go through to hire

just

one

person.



Sounds like the one person you need to hire would be - a lawyer!
Who, unfortunately, would not do any productive work...

Which is my point -- if I want to hire just one person for productive
work _and_ stay within the confines of all due regulations I can't. Or
at least I can't without either taking a huge hit to my own
productivity, contracting the HR work out (it can be done, but there's
still a productivity hit), or blithely ignoring a bunch of regulations
that may or may not bite me down the road.

All the rules are written with the assumption that employers are
self-centered, evil, and have infinitely deep pockets. That describes
large corporations pretty well, but when you get down to small
businesses the "deep pockets" definition goes right out the window, and
"self-centered" and "evil" only apply to a nasty few, not the majority.

There's got to be a way to find some middle ground so that I don't have
toxic waste from some neighbor flowing across my land, yet I still have
a way to spread my wealth to happy employees without turning into an
unpaid cop* and bureaucrat for every government entity whose territory I
happen to be in.

* And Gunner, before you start cackling with glee -- if I hire someone
then _I_ have to make sure that they're not an illegal immigrant; _I_
have to get all their documentation and keep it on file -- even if
they're one of the two boys whose births I was present at, or one of my
nieces or nephews who I've watched grow up. Furthermore, if I want to
sell to the government, or to a government supplier, _I_ have to be the
asshole that sends my employees off to drug testing and then fires them
if they don't pass. So it's not just "those damn liberals" that put
this burden on me.

Oh of course not. Which is why I work by myself and when I do need a
hand..I pay em cash at the end of the day and struggle until I get paid.

So I generally work by myself. Im building a machine shop at the moment.
Electrical, pneumatics, installing machinery etc etc. I sure could use
a hand. But I cant afford to hire one. Anyone Id hire..would be making
more money than me.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

"Hawke" wrote in message
...

It's only been a year and a half since Obama has been working to fix the
problems. It's going to take a long longer than that.

Hawke

So, when is going to start? Oh, that's right...he doesn't have a CLUE!

Temp agencies may be the wave of the future.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...

Which is my point -- if I want to hire just one person for productive
work _and_ stay within the confines of all due regulations I can't.
Or
at least I can't without either taking a huge hit to my own
productivity, contracting the HR work out (it can be done, but there's
still a productivity hit), or blithely ignoring a bunch of regulations
that may or may not bite me down the road.

All the rules are written with the assumption that employers are
self-centered, evil, and have infinitely deep pockets. That describes
large corporations pretty well, but when you get down to small
businesses the "deep pockets" definition goes right out the window,
and
"self-centered" and "evil" only apply to a nasty few, not the
majority.

There's got to be a way to find some middle ground so that I don't
have
toxic waste from some neighbor flowing across my land, yet I still
have
a way to spread my wealth to happy employees without turning into an
unpaid cop* and bureaucrat for every government entity whose territory
I
happen to be in.

* And Gunner, before you start cackling with glee -- if I hire someone
then _I_ have to make sure that they're not an illegal immigrant; _I_
have to get all their documentation and keep it on file -- even if
they're one of the two boys whose births I was present at, or one of
my
nieces or nephews who I've watched grow up. Furthermore, if I want to
sell to the government, or to a government supplier, _I_ have to be
the
asshole that sends my employees off to drug testing and then fires
them
if they don't pass. So it's not just "those damn liberals" that put
this burden on me.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Train your dogs as helpers? They are likely to be much better workers.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

Oh of course not. Which is why I work by myself and when I do need a
hand..I pay em cash at the end of the day and struggle until I get
paid.

So I generally work by myself. Im building a machine shop at the
moment.
Electrical, pneumatics, installing machinery etc etc. I sure could
use
a hand. But I cant afford to hire one. Anyone Id hire..would be making
more money than me.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Temp agencies may be the wave of the future.



They already are...


--

Richard Lamb

On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 17:36:24 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Train your dogs as helpers? They are likely to be much better workers.


I took Sandy with me today. I dropped a screw driver and started down
the ladder..and she was holding it in her teeth, with her front paws two
steps up.

I think I like this dog G

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 22:34:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote the following:

On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 17:36:24 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Train your dogs as helpers? They are likely to be much better workers.


I took Sandy with me today. I dropped a screw driver and started down
the ladder..and she was holding it in her teeth, with her front paws two
steps up.

I think I like this dog G

Pretty cool, and works for low pay, too.

I was shocked to see something in the local Grange Co-Op ad yesterday.
Freakin' yuppie bull****: Frosty Paws frozen dog treats, 2/$7. thud
So, do you buy these for Sandy, or dress her in coats and shoes,
raincoats when it's raining, etc.? Ah dinna thin so.

--
It's also helpful to realize that this very body that we have, that's
sitting right here right now, with its aches and its pleasures, is
exactly what we need to be fully human, fully awake, fully alive.
-- Pema Chodron

If she was a temp worker, she would have got the screw driver after
her coffee break, and only if you signed her time card.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 17:36:24 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Train your dogs as helpers? They are likely to be much better
workers.


I took Sandy with me today. I dropped a screw driver and started down
the ladder..and she was holding it in her teeth, with her front paws
two
steps up.

I think I like this dog G

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On 7/6/2010 11:20 PM, Buerste wrote:
wrote in message
...

It's only been a year and a half since Obama has been working to fix the
problems. It's going to take a long longer than that.

Hawke

So, when is going to start? Oh, that's right...he doesn't have a CLUE!


When a tornado comes by and destroys everything you own how long does it
take to return things back to where they were before the storm hit? A
year? I don't think so. You don't have the worst financial disaster in
70 years hit and then put in a new guy and think he's going to have us
back to boom times in a year and a half. Well, if you're stupid you do.
The truth is if Obama can get us back by the end of his first term to
where we were before the Bush/Cheney disaster he'll have done a great
job. You don't pull out of the 2nd worst economic crisis in 100 years in
a year or two. But then you would know that if you actually knew a thing
about economics or history. But maybe you really do understand that and
are just saying that so you can be critical of Obama like an unpatriotic
jerk. You look bad which ever it is though.

Hawke

It's just a guess but I would bet that instead of hiring one new worker
to work and one to handle paperwork the truth is you don't have enough
business to hire a new employee, let alone two. I've maintained all
along the reason businesses aren't hiring is simple. They don't need
them. Their businesses are not growing enough to need any more workers.
As long as business is down you don't need new hires. The reason
business is down is because of what happened due to the Bush/Cheney
economic meltdown. That made so many Americans poorer and so many
unemployed that most businesses just don't have the customers they used
to have. So they don't need any more workers. Henry Ford knew it years
ago. If you don't have a public with money to spend on your product your
business isn't going to grow. Americans are all poorer than they were
when Bush took over. It's only been a year and a half since Obama has
been working to fix the problems. It's going to take a long longer than
that.

Well, gee. Thanks for the economics lesson. Perhaps you could instruct
me on basic arithmetic next.

Only if you really need it.


I had opportunities to expand long before the meltdown, and I've walked
away from them because -- having other family members who have employees
-- I know what a pain in the behind it is. So in _my_ case the
Bush/Cheney meltdown has _nothing_ to do with my lack of inclination to
generate a job or two.

So the worst economic recession since 1929 hits and it has no effect on
your inclination to hire someone or not. The economic situation in the
country has no bearing on whether you hire of not? That's interesting.
It's like you're in a bubble where nothing going on around you has any
effect on what you do. You're really lucky. If you look around you might
notice that quite a few of your fellow citizens have been negatively
affected by the Bush/Cheney meltdown.


Given that, I fail to see how raising the barriers to small business --
which is what is going to generate jobs in an economy where no one can
borrow squat -- is going to increase jobs. Living in Oregon where we've
had hippie-dippy governors trying to attract "green jobs" since 2001
without stemming the ebb of jobs doesn't exactly give me much faith in
Obama's retreads.

What you are calling barriers to small business others are calling
making changes that will have a long term beneficial effect on the
economy. Unfortunately, what the Bush administration did from 2001 on
was not intended to promote anything green. It just stuck with the old
methods that are not going to work in the future. If you are future
oriented you understand what Obama is trying to do and what "green" is
ultimately all about. If you are stuck in the past with the smokestack
and rustbelt economy you won't know what the hell is going on.


The dude is flailing. He delivers a much better speech than Bush does,
so he's not flailing as obviously. He's more up on what's hip in
environmental circles, so his solutions sound like speeches I've been
hearing since the '90's, instead of speeches that I heard back in the
'70's. But he's still flailing, and as long as we have administrations
and congresses that think that real wealth flows from service businesses
stuffed full of incompetents with Master's degrees rather than companies
where real people put their hands on real goods, then we're going down
the tubes.

Take your pick. You have two choices. Pick the republican way, which we
did from 2001 until 2009, or you can try the Obama way. Bush created
only 3 million jobs in his eight years. That's what doing it the old
fashioned way produced for us. Now it's Obama's turn. He needs more than
a couple of years. He started at the bottom of a very deep hole and it's
not so easy to make changes in our political system. He needs the time
to actually do what he is trying to achieve. Guys like you were willing
to give Bush unlimited time and there was no end to your patience. If
you were fair you would give someone else the same deal.



And I don't see either the wackos from the left _or_ the wackos from the
right fixing that, because -- as I stated -- they're all in the pockets
of a big this or a big that. Until the model changes away from "how can
we help great big companies save the country?" improvement will come in
spite of the politicians, not because of it.


I agree completely. The politicians do what they are told to do. The
problem is they don't do what is in the public interest any more they do
what is in the interest of the lobbyists and businesses who pay for them
to run for office. Until we end that legalized bribery you won't have
politicians working for us. They work for who pays for them to run for
office and these days it's the rich and the business community who are
footing the bill for their campaigns. If you don't stop that we're going
nowhere fast.

Hawke