Guys,

I am building a heavy "extension cord" intended to carry 50 amps not
more than 100' from our 200 amp power box to my van. Inside the van
will be a couple of welders and a plasma cutter.

The idea will be to move the van around the yard to where I need to do
welding or cutting so that I don't have to load and unload the
equipment constantly.

I am running AWG #4 four conductor wire. The power supply end of the
cord will plug into a 4 conductor (two hots, ground, and neutral) 50
amp plug protected by a 50 amp breaker located at the main power box.

The cord will terminates at a 100 amp weatherproof box that is screwed
to a 4' piece of 2x12. This "panel board" will be semi-permanently
affixed to the interior of the van - perhaps fastened to the back of
one of the bucket seats.

The panel box only has spaces for three 240v circuits. One of these
three will be a 50 amp plug controlled by a 50 amp breaker inside the
panel box. Another will be a 20 amp 220v circuit for my inverter
welder. It's the same plug configuration as for a 220v air
conditioning unit.

I wish to use the last of the three spaces for 2 pole circuit breaker
energizing a two gang box that will have two duplex 120v receptacles
(i.e. four 120v receptacles).

Rather than put these 120v plugs on 120v single pole breakers I would
prefer to split each leg of the double pole breaker to feed two of the
outlets.

I believe I'm correct that every time you double the voltage you
reduce the amperage by 50%?

Does this mean that a 20 amp double pole breaker will give me 40 amps
of 120 volt protection? In other words, if I have 4 outlets (two on
each leg) protected by a single 20 amp breaker will each duplex 120v
receptacle be good for 20 amps?

Also, from a code standpoint is it permissible to protect more than
one circuit by the same breaker? In other words, and by way of
example, is it kosher to run a single 240v plug PLUS two 120v outlets
by simply doubling up the hot wires under the breaker lugs?

Since I work alone it is not gonna happen that I'm using the inverter
welder and any 120v power tool at the same time. I just wanna know if
anybody remembers what the codes say about this and can give me a
title reference. To the extent that it is not inconsistent with good
electrical practice I would prefer to have enough outlets mounted on
the panel board to keep all of the equipment permanently plugged in -
or at least one of the big welders AND the plasma cutter. That would
save me having to crawl in and out plugging and unplugging machines.

Finally, should I ground the truck frame to the box?

Thanks,

Vernon

In article , Vernon wrote:
Guys,

I am building a heavy "extension cord" intended to carry 50 amps not
more than 100' from our 200 amp power box to my van. Inside the van
will be a couple of welders and a plasma cutter.

The idea will be to move the van around the yard to where I need to do
welding or cutting so that I don't have to load and unload the
equipment constantly.

I am running AWG #4 four conductor wire. The power supply end of the
cord will plug into a 4 conductor (two hots, ground, and neutral) 50
amp plug protected by a 50 amp breaker located at the main power box.

The cord will terminates at a 100 amp weatherproof box that is screwed
to a 4' piece of 2x12. This "panel board" will be semi-permanently
affixed to the interior of the van - perhaps fastened to the back of
one of the bucket seats.

Make sure that the neutral bus in that panel is *not* bonded (electrically
connected) to the panel chassis or to the ground bus.

Also make sure that the ground bus *is* bonded to the frame of the van.


The panel box only has spaces for three 240v circuits. One of these
three will be a 50 amp plug controlled by a 50 amp breaker inside the
panel box. Another will be a 20 amp 220v circuit for my inverter
welder. It's the same plug configuration as for a 220v air
conditioning unit.

I wish to use the last of the three spaces for 2 pole circuit breaker
energizing a two gang box that will have two duplex 120v receptacles
(i.e. four 120v receptacles).

Rather than put these 120v plugs on 120v single pole breakers I would
prefer to split each leg of the double pole breaker to feed two of the
outlets.

I believe I'm correct that every time you double the voltage you
reduce the amperage by 50%?

Yes.

Does this mean that a 20 amp double pole breaker will give me 40 amps
of 120 volt protection?

Not exactly. It will give you two 20A circuits at 120V. That's 40A total, of
course, but it's on two circuits.

In other words, if I have 4 outlets (two on
each leg) protected by a single 20 amp breaker will each duplex 120v
receptacle be good for 20 amps?

Each *circuit* will be good for 20 amps. Whether the *receptacles* are or not
depends on whether you get 20A receptacles (the standard receps that you get
for 69 cents at Home Depot are 15A, not 20A).

Also, from a code standpoint is it permissible to protect more than
one circuit by the same breaker?

No.

In other words, and by way of
example, is it kosher to run a single 240v plug PLUS two 120v outlets
by simply doubling up the hot wires under the breaker lugs?

No. The problem there, though, isn't mixing 240V and 120V outlets on the same
circuit. The problem is two wires under the breaker lugs.

There's nothing wrong with putting all three receptacles on a three-conductor
cable (which actually has four wires -- black, red, white, and bare) wired
thus:

(In the breaker panel)
- black and red to the two poles of a double-pole breaker
- white to the neutral bus
- bare to the ground bus

(At the 240V receptacle)
- black to the black wire continuing on to the first 120V receptacle *and* to
a black pigtail connecting to one hot terminal on the 240V receptacle
- red to the red wire continuing on to the first 120V receptacle *and* to a
red pigtail connecting to the other hot terminal on the 240V receptacle
- bare to the bare wire continuing on to the first 120V receptacle *and* to a
bare pigtail connecting to the ground terminal on the 240V receptacle
- white to the white wire continuing on the the first 120V receptacle
- white is *not* connected to the 240V receptacle

(At the first 120V receptacle)
- black to the hot terminal
- white to the white wire continuing on to the second 120V receptacle *and* to
a white pigtail connecting to the neutral terminal on first 120V receptacle
- bare to the bare wire continuing on the the second 120V receptable *and* to
a bare pigtail connecting to the ground terminal on the first 120V receptacle
- red is not connected

(At the second 120V receptacle)
- red to the hot terminal
- white to the neutral terminal
- bare to the ground terminal
- black is not connected

Since I work alone it is not gonna happen that I'm using the inverter
welder and any 120v power tool at the same time. I just wanna know if
anybody remembers what the codes say about this and can give me a
title reference.

Remember what the Code says? You bet.
Give you a specific reference? That might take a while, I don't have the
article numbers memorized. :-)

To the extent that it is not inconsistent with good
electrical practice I would prefer to have enough outlets mounted on
the panel board to keep all of the equipment permanently plugged in -
or at least one of the big welders AND the plasma cutter. That would
save me having to crawl in and out plugging and unplugging machines.

Finally, should I ground the truck frame to the box?

Absolutely.

On Jun 27, 8:29*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Vernon wrote:





Guys,

I am building a heavy "extension cord" intended to carry 50 amps not
more than 100' from our 200 amp power box to my van. *Inside the van
will be a couple of welders and a plasma cutter.

The idea will be to move the van around the yard to where I need to do
welding or cutting so that I don't have to load and unload the
equipment constantly.

I am running AWG #4 four conductor wire. *The power supply end of the
cord will plug into a 4 conductor (two hots, ground, and neutral) 50
amp plug protected by a 50 amp breaker located at the main power box.

The cord will terminates at a 100 amp weatherproof box that is screwed
to a 4' piece of 2x12. *This "panel board" will be semi-permanently
affixed to the interior of the van - perhaps fastened to the back of
one of the bucket seats.

Make sure that the neutral bus in that panel is *not* bonded (electrically
connected) to the panel chassis or to the ground bus.

Also make sure that the ground bus *is* bonded to the frame of the van.







The panel box only has spaces for three 240v circuits. *One of these
three will be a 50 amp plug controlled by a 50 amp breaker inside the
panel box. *Another will be a 20 amp 220v circuit for my inverter
welder. *It's the same plug configuration as for a 220v air
conditioning unit.

I wish to use the last of the three spaces for 2 pole circuit breaker
energizing a two gang box that will have two duplex 120v receptacles
(i.e. four 120v receptacles).

Rather than put these 120v plugs on 120v single pole breakers I would
prefer to split each leg of the double pole breaker to feed two of the
outlets.

I believe I'm correct that every time you double the voltage you
reduce the amperage by 50%?

Yes.



Does this mean that a 20 amp double pole breaker will give me 40 amps
of 120 volt protection? *

Not exactly. It will give you two 20A circuits at 120V. That's 40A total, of
course, but it's on two circuits.

In other words, if I have 4 outlets (two on
each leg) protected by a single 20 amp breaker will each duplex 120v
receptacle be good for 20 amps?

Each *circuit* will be good for 20 amps. Whether the *receptacles* are or not
depends on whether you get 20A receptacles (the standard receps that you get
for 69 cents at Home Depot are 15A, not 20A).



Also, from a code standpoint is it permissible to protect more than
one circuit by the same breaker?

No.

In other words, and by way of
example, is it kosher to run a single 240v plug PLUS two 120v outlets
by simply doubling up the hot wires under the breaker lugs?

No. The problem there, though, isn't mixing 240V and 120V outlets on the same
circuit. The problem is two wires under the breaker lugs.

There's nothing wrong with putting all three receptacles on a three-conductor
cable (which actually has four wires -- black, red, white, and bare) wired
thus:

(In the breaker panel)
- black and red to the two poles of a double-pole breaker
- white to the neutral bus
- bare to the ground bus

(At the 240V receptacle)
- black to the black wire continuing on to the first 120V receptacle *and* to
a black pigtail connecting to one hot terminal on the 240V receptacle
- red to the red wire continuing on to the first 120V receptacle *and* to a
red pigtail connecting to the other hot terminal on the 240V receptacle
- bare to the bare wire continuing on to the first 120V receptacle *and* to a
bare pigtail connecting to the ground terminal on the 240V receptacle
- white to the white wire continuing on the the first 120V receptacle
- white is *not* connected to the 240V receptacle

(At the first 120V receptacle)
- black to the hot terminal
- white to the white wire continuing on to the second 120V receptacle *and* to
a white pigtail connecting to the neutral terminal on first 120V receptacle
- bare to the bare wire continuing on the the second 120V receptable *and* to
a bare pigtail connecting to the ground terminal on the first 120V receptacle
- red is not connected

(At the second 120V receptacle)
- red to the hot terminal
- white to the neutral terminal
- bare to the ground terminal
- black is not connected

Since I work alone it is not gonna happen that I'm using the inverter
welder and any 120v power tool at the same time. *I just wanna know if
anybody remembers what the codes say about this and can give me a
title reference. *

Remember what the Code says? You bet.
Give you a specific reference? That might take a while, I don't have the
article numbers memorized. :-)

To the extent that it is not inconsistent with good
electrical practice I would prefer to have enough outlets mounted on
the panel board to keep all of the equipment permanently plugged in -
or at least one of the big welders AND the plasma cutter. *That would
save me having to crawl in and out plugging and unplugging machines.

Finally, should I ground the truck frame to the box?

Absolutely.

Hey Doug,

That was awesome, thanks! Never mind the code reference!

VT

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:29:31 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


There's nothing wrong with putting all three receptacles on a three-conductor
cable (which actually has four wires -- black, red, white, and bare) w


In most industrial applications..thats going to be Black, Red, Green and
bare, or more commonly here......Black, White, Green and bare

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 23:02:26 -0700 (PDT), Vernon
wrote:

Guys,

I am building a heavy "extension cord" intended to carry 50 amps not
more than 100' from our 200 amp power box to my van. Inside the van
will be a couple of welders and a plasma cutter.

Vernon..can I make a suggestion? Instead of using your van..aquire or
build a small Wells Cargo type trailer or even a homemade trailer.

It is pretty common around these parts to do just this, and thats one of
the reasons Ive got a 5x8 Wells Cargo tucked away in the side yard. It
will be converted to a portable workshop sometime this summer, a bench,
grinder, enclosed storage etc etc.

Its easy to simply add outdoor outlets to either the walls just inside
the back doors, or actually mount them outside on the walls.

Just a thought.

Ive run into too many situations where during the middle of the job,
Ive had to run somewhere to pick up something and had to unhook all
manner of Stuff, or pull my helper off the job because I took his tool
"shed" to the store with me.

Gunner


The idea will be to move the van around the yard to where I need to do
welding or cutting so that I don't have to load and unload the
equipment constantly.

I am running AWG #4 four conductor wire. The power supply end of the
cord will plug into a 4 conductor (two hots, ground, and neutral) 50
amp plug protected by a 50 amp breaker located at the main power box.

The cord will terminates at a 100 amp weatherproof box that is screwed
to a 4' piece of 2x12. This "panel board" will be semi-permanently
affixed to the interior of the van - perhaps fastened to the back of
one of the bucket seats.

The panel box only has spaces for three 240v circuits. One of these
three will be a 50 amp plug controlled by a 50 amp breaker inside the
panel box. Another will be a 20 amp 220v circuit for my inverter
welder. It's the same plug configuration as for a 220v air
conditioning unit.

I wish to use the last of the three spaces for 2 pole circuit breaker
energizing a two gang box that will have two duplex 120v receptacles
(i.e. four 120v receptacles).

Rather than put these 120v plugs on 120v single pole breakers I would
prefer to split each leg of the double pole breaker to feed two of the
outlets.

I believe I'm correct that every time you double the voltage you
reduce the amperage by 50%?

Does this mean that a 20 amp double pole breaker will give me 40 amps
of 120 volt protection? In other words, if I have 4 outlets (two on
each leg) protected by a single 20 amp breaker will each duplex 120v
receptacle be good for 20 amps?

Also, from a code standpoint is it permissible to protect more than
one circuit by the same breaker? In other words, and by way of
example, is it kosher to run a single 240v plug PLUS two 120v outlets
by simply doubling up the hot wires under the breaker lugs?

Since I work alone it is not gonna happen that I'm using the inverter
welder and any 120v power tool at the same time. I just wanna know if
anybody remembers what the codes say about this and can give me a
title reference. To the extent that it is not inconsistent with good
electrical practice I would prefer to have enough outlets mounted on
the panel board to keep all of the equipment permanently plugged in -
or at least one of the big welders AND the plasma cutter. That would
save me having to crawl in and out plugging and unplugging machines.

Finally, should I ground the truck frame to the box?

Thanks,

Vernon

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

In article , wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:29:31 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


There's nothing wrong with putting all three receptacles on a three-conductor
cable (which actually has four wires -- black, red, white, and bare) w


In most industrial applications..thats going to be Black, Red, Green and
bare, or more commonly here......Black, White, Green and bare

Guess again.

Hint: green and bare are both used for equipment grounding, and the NEC
prohibits the use of either for any other purpose. Do you tell me that
"most industrial applications" use two equipment grounding conductors? And
*no* neutral when supplying 120V loads?

In any event, that's entirely beside the point, as he's talking about a
*residential* installation anyway -- in which the conductor colors are exactly
as I described.

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 19:10:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:29:31 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


There's nothing wrong with putting all three receptacles on a three-conductor
cable (which actually has four wires -- black, red, white, and bare) w


In most industrial applications..thats going to be Black, Red, Green and
bare, or more commonly here......Black, White, Green and bare

Guess again.

I run into it virtually every day in machine shops all over California.


Hint: green and bare are both used for equipment grounding, and the NEC
prohibits the use of either for any other purpose. Do you tell me that
"most industrial applications" use two equipment grounding conductors? And
*no* neutral when supplying 120V loads?

Very few industrial is single phase, but the few that are....shrug..are
as I stated above.

In any event, that's entirely beside the point, as he's talking about a
*residential* installation anyway -- in which the conductor colors are exactly
as I described.

Shrug. I guess you go to higher class places than I do.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

In article , wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 19:10:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:29:31 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


There's nothing wrong with putting all three receptacles on a
three-conductor
cable (which actually has four wires -- black, red, white, and bare) w


In most industrial applications..thats going to be Black, Red, Green and
bare, or more commonly here......Black, White, Green and bare

Guess again.

I run into it virtually every day in machine shops all over California.

Sure you do. Two grounds and no neutral. Uh-huh.


Hint: green and bare are both used for equipment grounding, and the NEC
prohibits the use of either for any other purpose. Do you tell me that
"most industrial applications" use two equipment grounding conductors? And
*no* neutral when supplying 120V loads?

Very few industrial is single phase,

That does not matter. NEC color coding requirements are the same without
regard to the number of phases. The entire NEC is available online he
http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/br...NFPASTD/7008SB
You might benefit from reading it. The portion relevant to this discussion
is Article 200.

but the few that are....shrug..are
as I stated above.

IOW, you're claiming that you see many single-phase circuits with two
equipment grounds and no neutral. The only way I'm going to believe that is if
you tell me *you* installed the circuits.


In any event, that's entirely beside the point, as he's talking about a
*residential* installation anyway -- in which the conductor colors are exactly
as I described.

Shrug. I guess you go to higher class places than I do.

So it seems.

"Vernon" wrote in message
...
Guys,

I am building a heavy "extension cord" intended to carry 50 amps not
more than 100' from our 200 amp power box to my van. Inside the van
will be a couple of welders and a plasma cutter.

The idea will be to move the van around the yard to where I need to do
welding or cutting so that I don't have to load and unload the
equipment constantly.

I am running AWG #4 four conductor wire. The power supply end of the
cord will plug into a 4 conductor (two hots, ground, and neutral) 50
amp plug protected by a 50 amp breaker located at the main power box.

The cord will terminates at a 100 amp weatherproof box that is screwed
to a 4' piece of 2x12. This "panel board" will be semi-permanently
affixed to the interior of the van - perhaps fastened to the back of
one of the bucket seats.

The panel box only has spaces for three 240v circuits. One of these
three will be a 50 amp plug controlled by a 50 amp breaker inside the
panel box. Another will be a 20 amp 220v circuit for my inverter
welder. It's the same plug configuration as for a 220v air
conditioning unit.

I wish to use the last of the three spaces for 2 pole circuit breaker
energizing a two gang box that will have two duplex 120v receptacles
(i.e. four 120v receptacles).

Rather than put these 120v plugs on 120v single pole breakers I would
prefer to split each leg of the double pole breaker to feed two of the
outlets.

Why? The only difference is the breakers are tied and trip together, which
is no advantage. Electrically, breakers on different stabs will balance the
same as on a double pole breaker.

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 01:15:25 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 19:10:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:29:31 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


There's nothing wrong with putting all three receptacles on a
three-conductor
cable (which actually has four wires -- black, red, white, and bare) w


In most industrial applications..thats going to be Black, Red, Green and
bare, or more commonly here......Black, White, Green and bare

Guess again.

I run into it virtually every day in machine shops all over California.

Sure you do. Two grounds and no neutral. Uh-huh.

In single phase 220? Two grounds? Which was which?



Hint: green and bare are both used for equipment grounding, and the NEC
prohibits the use of either for any other purpose. Do you tell me that
"most industrial applications" use two equipment grounding conductors? And
*no* neutral when supplying 120V loads?

Very few industrial is single phase,

That does not matter. NEC color coding requirements are the same without
regard to the number of phases. The entire NEC is available online he
http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/br...NFPASTD/7008SB
You might benefit from reading it. The portion relevant to this discussion
is Article 200.

but the few that are....shrug..are
as I stated above.

IOW, you're claiming that you see many single-phase circuits with two
equipment grounds and no neutral. The only way I'm going to believe that is if
you tell me *you* installed the circuits.


Sorry spud..but Im not going to get into a ****ing contest with you.

The shops seem to think that the third wire is a neutral and use the
green wire. Sorry if they are wrong. Would you care to have a list of
phone numbers so you can call em up and bitch to them?

$5 a number and Ill send you my entire client list.

Cash only.

How many would you like?



In any event, that's entirely beside the point, as he's talking about a
*residential* installation anyway -- in which the conductor colors are exactly
as I described.

Shrug. I guess you go to higher class places than I do.

So it seems.

Shrug.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

In article , wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 01:15:25 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 19:10:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,

wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:29:31 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


There's nothing wrong with putting all three receptacles on a
three-conductor
cable (which actually has four wires -- black, red, white, and bare) w


In most industrial applications..thats going to be Black, Red, Green and
bare, or more commonly here......Black, White, Green and bare

Guess again.

I run into it virtually every day in machine shops all over California.

Sure you do. Two grounds and no neutral. Uh-huh.

In single phase 220? Two grounds? Which was which?

You're not making sense, Goober. The NEC mandates that green can be used
*only* for grounding conductors. It also mandates that bare can be used *only*
for grounding conductors. So your claim to have seen "green and bare" in "most
industrial applications" means you're claiming that most industrial
applications have two grounds.

I call "bull****".



Hint: green and bare are both used for equipment grounding, and the NEC
prohibits the use of either for any other purpose. Do you tell me that
"most industrial applications" use two equipment grounding conductors? And
*no* neutral when supplying 120V loads?

Very few industrial is single phase,

That does not matter. NEC color coding requirements are the same without
regard to the number of phases. The entire NEC is available online he
http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/br...NFPASTD/7008SB
You might benefit from reading it. The portion relevant to this discussion
is Article 200.

but the few that are....shrug..are
as I stated above.

IOW, you're claiming that you see many single-phase circuits with two
equipment grounds and no neutral. The only way I'm going to believe that is if
you tell me *you* installed the circuits.


Sorry spud..but Im not going to get into a ****ing contest with you.

Probably wise. You clearly don't know much about the electrical code.

The shops seem to think that the third wire is a neutral and use the
green wire. Sorry if they are wrong.

Much more likely that you're just making crap up, because you don't have a
clue.

Like _THAT'S_ never happened before...

In article , "ATP" wrote:

"Vernon" wrote in message
...

Rather than put these 120v plugs on 120v single pole breakers I would
prefer to split each leg of the double pole breaker to feed two of the
outlets.

Why? The only difference is the breakers are tied and trip together, which
is no advantage. Electrically, breakers on different stabs will balance the
same as on a double pole breaker.

Incorrect. There is one other difference, which apparently is important to
him: with the 120V circuits on opposite legs of a double-pole breaker, he can
*also* use the same double-pole breaker to supply a 240V load (as long as he
won't be using it at the same time as the 120V loads). This enables him to
have more circuits, effectively, without using additional breakers or slots in
the panel, and probably saves wire too, if it's laid out thoughtfully.

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 02:38:07 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


In single phase 220? Two grounds? Which was which?

You're not making sense, Goober. The NEC mandates that green can be used
*only* for grounding conductors. It also mandates that bare can be used *only*
for grounding conductors. So your claim to have seen "green and bare" in "most
industrial applications" means you're claiming that most industrial
applications have two grounds.

I call "bull****".


NEC mandates....Dougie...3/4 of the machine shops in the US have no clue
who or what the NEC is.

I was asked to check on why the outlets in an office werent working.
They had used 300 ohm TV twin lead to run power into the boxes. Worked
for years, until they added a big copy machine and a fax/printer.

Poof!

You really dont get out much, do you?

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 02:41:57 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "ATP" wrote:

"Vernon" wrote in message
...

Rather than put these 120v plugs on 120v single pole breakers I would
prefer to split each leg of the double pole breaker to feed two of the
outlets.

Why? The only difference is the breakers are tied and trip together, which
is no advantage. Electrically, breakers on different stabs will balance the
same as on a double pole breaker.

Incorrect. There is one other difference, which apparently is important to
him: with the 120V circuits on opposite legs of a double-pole breaker, he can
*also* use the same double-pole breaker to supply a 240V load (as long as he
won't be using it at the same time as the 120V loads). This enables him to
have more circuits, effectively, without using additional breakers or slots in
the panel, and probably saves wire too, if it's laid out thoughtfully.

True indeed.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Jun 27, 12:33*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 23:02:26 -0700 (PDT), Vernon
wrote:

Guys,

I am building a heavy "extension cord" intended to carry 50 amps not
more than 100' from our 200 amp power box to my van. *Inside the van
will be a couple of welders and a plasma cutter.

Vernon..can I make a suggestion? *Instead of using your van..aquire or
build a small Wells Cargo type trailer or even a homemade trailer.

It is pretty common around these parts to do just this, and thats one of
the reasons Ive got a 5x8 Wells Cargo tucked away in the side yard. It
will be converted to a portable workshop sometime this summer, a bench,
grinder, enclosed storage etc etc. *

Its easy to simply add outdoor outlets to either the walls just inside
the back doors, or actually mount them outside on the walls. *

Just a thought. *

*Ive run into too many situations where during the middle of the job,
Ive had to run somewhere to pick up something and had to unhook all
manner of Stuff, or pull my helper off the job because I took his tool
"shed" to the store with me.

Gunner







The idea will be to move the van around the yard to where I need to do
welding or cutting so that I don't have to load and unload the
equipment constantly.

I am running AWG #4 four conductor wire. *The power supply end of the
cord will plug into a 4 conductor (two hots, ground, and neutral) 50
amp plug protected by a 50 amp breaker located at the main power box.

The cord will terminates at a 100 amp weatherproof box that is screwed
to a 4' piece of 2x12. *This "panel board" will be semi-permanently
affixed to the interior of the van - perhaps fastened to the back of
one of the bucket seats.

The panel box only has spaces for three 240v circuits. *One of these
three will be a 50 amp plug controlled by a 50 amp breaker inside the
panel box. *Another will be a 20 amp 220v circuit for my inverter
welder. *It's the same plug configuration as for a 220v air
conditioning unit.

I wish to use the last of the three spaces for 2 pole circuit breaker
energizing a two gang box that will have two duplex 120v receptacles
(i.e. four 120v receptacles).

Rather than put these 120v plugs on 120v single pole breakers I would
prefer to split each leg of the double pole breaker to feed two of the
outlets.

I believe I'm correct that every time you double the voltage you
reduce the amperage by 50%?

Does this mean that a 20 amp double pole breaker will give me 40 amps
of 120 volt protection? *In other words, if I have 4 outlets (two on
each leg) protected by a single 20 amp breaker will each duplex 120v
receptacle be good for 20 amps?

Also, from a code standpoint is it permissible to protect more than
one circuit by the same breaker? *In other words, and by way of
example, is it kosher to run a single 240v plug PLUS two 120v outlets
by simply doubling up the hot wires under the breaker lugs?

Since I work alone it is not gonna happen that I'm using the inverter
welder and any 120v power tool at the same time. *I just wanna know if
anybody remembers what the codes say about this and can give me a
title reference. *To the extent that it is not inconsistent with good
electrical practice I would prefer to have enough outlets mounted on
the panel board to keep all of the equipment permanently plugged in -
or at least one of the big welders AND the plasma cutter. *That would
save me having to crawl in and out plugging and unplugging machines.

Finally, should I ground the truck frame to the box?

Thanks,

Vernon

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Gunner Asch

Gunner,

That's a fine idea. However, I'm too po' at the moment. I am doing
my project at our farm on a busy busy (did I say busy?) Texas
highway. No gate. Not even a fence. About 15 years ago the place
got hit in a burglary and we were wiped out.

I have an old '85 Ford E350 diesel van. It has gotten so expensive to
drive that it is now a rolling toolbox. The round trip commute is
about 50 miles. It gets about 11 mpg. So it costs about $18 per hour
to drive. Otherwise, I'd be all too happy to do the Wells Cargo
trailer shop idea. V

On Jun 27, 2:10*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:29:31 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

There's nothing wrong with putting all three receptacles on a three-conductor
cable (which actually has four wires -- black, red, white, and bare) w

In most industrial applications..thats going to be Black, Red, Green and
bare, or more commonly here......Black, White, Green and bare

Guess again.

Hint: green and bare are both used for equipment grounding, and the NEC
prohibits the use of either for any other purpose. Do you tell me that
"most industrial applications" use two equipment grounding conductors? And
*no* neutral when supplying 120V loads?

In any event, that's entirely beside the point, as he's talking about a
*residential* installation anyway -- in which the conductor colors are exactly
as I described.

For whatever it's worth this is some old "sunlight resistant" no. 4
awg cable I got as part of a power distribution grid with an old onan
generator. In this wire the colors are red, black, white, and green.
VT

On Jun 28, 12:17*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 02:41:57 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:





In article , "ATP" wrote:

"Vernon" wrote in message
....

Rather than put these 120v plugs on 120v single pole breakers I would
prefer to split each leg of the double pole breaker to feed two of the
outlets.

Why? The only difference is the breakers are tied and trip together, which
is no advantage. Electrically, breakers on different stabs will balance the
same as on a double pole breaker.

Incorrect. There is one other difference, which apparently is important to
him: with the 120V circuits on opposite legs of a double-pole breaker, he can
*also* use the same double-pole breaker to supply a 240V load (as long as he
won't be using it at the same time as the 120V loads). This enables him to
have more circuits, effectively, without using additional breakers or slots in
the panel, and probably saves wire too, if it's laid out thoughtfully.

True indeed.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Gunner Asch

Remember boys. Be nice to each other. Otherwise our moms will come
spank us! V

On Jun 28, 12:17*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 02:41:57 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:





In article , "ATP" wrote:

"Vernon" wrote in message
....

Rather than put these 120v plugs on 120v single pole breakers I would
prefer to split each leg of the double pole breaker to feed two of the
outlets.

Why? The only difference is the breakers are tied and trip together, which
is no advantage. Electrically, breakers on different stabs will balance the
same as on a double pole breaker.

Incorrect. There is one other difference, which apparently is important to
him: with the 120V circuits on opposite legs of a double-pole breaker, he can
*also* use the same double-pole breaker to supply a 240V load (as long as he
won't be using it at the same time as the 120V loads). This enables him to
have more circuits, effectively, without using additional breakers or slots in
the panel, and probably saves wire too, if it's laid out thoughtfully.

True indeed.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Gunner Asch

Are any of y'all on facebook? If so send me a friend request to
"vernon tuck". (I'm the Vernon Tuck who's handsomer than Indiana
Jones). Once I approve you as my widdle fwiend you can see pics of
our farm, our critters, our kids, and my project. This time last year
we started a roadside stand. It was originally intended to be a
fireworks stand. But it morphed into something bigger. I ended up
building a heavy wall pipe foundation behind it, jacking it up and
rolling it back so that I could permanently affix it before the next
hurricane blows it into the next county. It is the most ambitious
welding project I've done yet. Which is not to say it will impress
anybody in here. But I'm proud of it. VT

In article , wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 02:38:07 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


In single phase 220? Two grounds? Which was which?

You're not making sense, Goober. The NEC mandates that green can be used
*only* for grounding conductors. It also mandates that bare can be used *only*

for grounding conductors. So your claim to have seen "green and bare" in "most

industrial applications" means you're claiming that most industrial
applications have two grounds.

I call "bull****".


NEC mandates....Dougie...3/4 of the machine shops in the US have no clue
who or what the NEC is.

I can readily believe that 3/4 of the places *you* are familiar with have no
clue...

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:17:35 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote the following:

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 02:41:57 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "ATP" wrote:

"Vernon" wrote in message
...

Rather than put these 120v plugs on 120v single pole breakers I would
prefer to split each leg of the double pole breaker to feed two of the
outlets.

Why? The only difference is the breakers are tied and trip together, which
is no advantage. Electrically, breakers on different stabs will balance the
same as on a double pole breaker.

Incorrect. There is one other difference, which apparently is important to
him: with the 120V circuits on opposite legs of a double-pole breaker, he can
*also* use the same double-pole breaker to supply a 240V load (as long as he
won't be using it at the same time as the 120V loads). This enables him to
have more circuits, effectively, without using additional breakers or slots in
the panel, and probably saves wire too, if it's laid out thoughtfully.

True indeed.

I was told that the NEC stipulated that you may NOT tap 120v legs off
a 240v feed because it imbalances the circuit. In reality, it works,
though.

--
The most powerful factors in the world are clear ideas
in the minds of energetic men of good will.
-- J. Arthur Thomson

In article , lid wrote:

I was told that the NEC stipulated that you may NOT tap 120v legs off
a 240v feed because it imbalances the circuit.

You were told incorrectly.

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 10:47:45 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 02:38:07 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


In single phase 220? Two grounds? Which was which?

You're not making sense, Goober. The NEC mandates that green can be used
*only* for grounding conductors. It also mandates that bare can be used *only*

for grounding conductors. So your claim to have seen "green and bare" in "most

industrial applications" means you're claiming that most industrial
applications have two grounds.

I call "bull****".


NEC mandates....Dougie...3/4 of the machine shops in the US have no clue
who or what the NEC is.

I can readily believe that 3/4 of the places *you* are familiar with have no
clue...

Tsk tsk Dougie...did I call you a cock sucker, or a shaved legged fagboi
or something?

If so, I retract it. So get that hair out of your ass and try to be a
bit more civil. Obviously we work in different aspects of the same
industry, so lets leave the buffoonish commentary and hostility in the
lunch pail, ok?

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

In article , wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 10:47:45 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 02:38:07 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


In single phase 220? Two grounds? Which was which?

You're not making sense, Goober. The NEC mandates that green can be used
*only* for grounding conductors. It also mandates that bare can be used
*only*

for grounding conductors. So your claim to have seen "green and bare" in
"most

industrial applications" means you're claiming that most industrial
applications have two grounds.

I call "bull****".


NEC mandates....Dougie...3/4 of the machine shops in the US have no clue
who or what the NEC is.

I can readily believe that 3/4 of the places *you* are familiar with have no
clue...

Tsk tsk Dougie...did I call you a cock sucker, or a shaved legged fagboi
or something?

If so, I retract it. So get that hair out of your ass and try to be a
bit more civil. Obviously we work in different aspects of the same
industry, so lets leave the buffoonish commentary and hostility in the
lunch pail, ok?

You're right, Gunner, that was uncalled for. I apologize. You still don't know
what you're talking about, though.

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 17:03:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 10:47:45 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 02:38:07 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


In single phase 220? Two grounds? Which was which?

You're not making sense, Goober. The NEC mandates that green can be used
*only* for grounding conductors. It also mandates that bare can be used
*only*

for grounding conductors. So your claim to have seen "green and bare" in
"most

industrial applications" means you're claiming that most industrial
applications have two grounds.

I call "bull****".


NEC mandates....Dougie...3/4 of the machine shops in the US have no clue
who or what the NEC is.

I can readily believe that 3/4 of the places *you* are familiar with have no
clue...

Tsk tsk Dougie...did I call you a cock sucker, or a shaved legged fagboi
or something?

If so, I retract it. So get that hair out of your ass and try to be a
bit more civil. Obviously we work in different aspects of the same
industry, so lets leave the buffoonish commentary and hostility in the
lunch pail, ok?

You're right, Gunner, that was uncalled for. I apologize. You still don't know
what you're talking about, though.

Sure Dougie..sure. And with that said....Ill snicker and go onwards.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

In most industrial applications..thats going to be Black, Red, Green and
bare, or more commonly here......Black, White, Green and bare


I lost track of who said this but...

did they mean that sometimes the ground is a bare conductor, and
sometimes green insulated.

And by "industrial applications" did they mean the whole building or
shop? Or maybe one circuit to a machine?

It seems like a few folks might be arguing about something they agree
on.
--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "ATP"
wrote:

"Vernon" wrote in message
...

Rather than put these 120v plugs on 120v single pole breakers I would
prefer to split each leg of the double pole breaker to feed two of the
outlets.

Why? The only difference is the breakers are tied and trip together, which
is no advantage. Electrically, breakers on different stabs will balance
the
same as on a double pole breaker.

Incorrect. There is one other difference, which apparently is important to
him: with the 120V circuits on opposite legs of a double-pole breaker, he
can
*also* use the same double-pole breaker to supply a 240V load (as long as
he
won't be using it at the same time as the 120V loads). This enables him to
have more circuits, effectively, without using additional breakers or
slots in
the panel, and probably saves wire too, if it's laid out thoughtfully.

I'll confess I didn't read that part. It may save wire but it's not good
practice. There is no way to assure that both loads will not be on at the
same time.

In article , "ATP*" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "ATP"
wrote:

"Vernon" wrote in message
...

Rather than put these 120v plugs on 120v single pole breakers I would
prefer to split each leg of the double pole breaker to feed two of the
outlets.

Why? The only difference is the breakers are tied and trip together, which
is no advantage. Electrically, breakers on different stabs will balance
the
same as on a double pole breaker.

Incorrect. There is one other difference, which apparently is important to
him: with the 120V circuits on opposite legs of a double-pole breaker, he can
*also* use the same double-pole breaker to supply a 240V load (as long as he
won't be using it at the same time as the 120V loads). This enables him to
have more circuits, effectively, without using additional breakers or slots in
the panel, and probably saves wire too, if it's laid out thoughtfully.

I'll confess I didn't read that part. It may save wire but it's not good
practice.

Rubbish.

There is no way to assure that both loads will not be on at the
same time.


Neither is there any way to assure that too much load won't be plugged into
any other circuit with multiple receptacles. If the load exceeds the rating of
the breaker, the breaker trips. No problem. That's what circuit breakers are
for.

(dan) wrote:


It seems like a few folks might be arguing about something they agree
on.

Like THAT never happens
jk

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 00:09:31 GMT, (dan) wrote:


In most industrial applications..thats going to be Black, Red, Green and
bare, or more commonly here......Black, White, Green and bare


I lost track of who said this but...

did they mean that sometimes the ground is a bare conductor, and
sometimes green insulated.

Ayup.

And by "industrial applications" did they mean the whole building or
shop? Or maybe one circuit to a machine?

Just some machines themselves..and some circuits.

It seems like a few folks might be arguing about something they agree
on.

I dont know everything, Im just a simple techie. Which according to
some, means I dont know ****.

Shrug

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch