On Apr 27, 5:06*pm, Hawke wrote:


I know the facts. Most Americans work their whole lives and
have jack **** when they die. And here everybody thought you would get
ahead if you just worked hard. But nope, it only works that way for the
lucky ones. Welcome to reality.

Hawke

You still have not said where you get this 2% figure.

Have you looked at the retirement packages for police and other city
employees?

Dan

On 2010-04-28, Ed Huntress wrote:

Well, I don't know how useful these tips are, but it's good to see how many
people have a sense of humor about kicking the bucket. g

When I was young -- in my teens -- I wanted to be stuffed and mounted,
sitting on top of my headstone. Then I realized that would be a terrible
waste of resources, and it wouldn't last very long.


When I die, I want a bronze statue of me made, on a horse, holding a
adjustable wrench in the right arm, and a laptop in the left.

On Apr 27, 6:27*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us

While the amount of capital accumulation required for a
secure retirement is indeed at least a million dollars U.S.
[or local equivalent], what never seems to be mentioned is
*HOW* such a huge sum is to be accumulated. *

Unka George *(George McDuffee)
..............................

I contributed to my 401k plan. From 1975 to 1998 I contributed twelve
percent of my salary and the company contributed 4%. This is an
amount almost identical to the amount that was taken from my pay for
social security and the amount the company paid. I was able to
contribute that much to the 401k plan because I built the house I
lived in and did not have a mortgage. A good deal of the money to
build the house came from spending some time working in Alaska.

The 401k plan was converted to an IRA and I now have to take out about
twice as much money as my wife and I get from Social Security. So the
HOW is " start young , live within your means, and invest".

Dan

On Apr 26, 11:11*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:


All right. But economic effects of small policy changes, like raising the
minimum wage by 8% or 10%, generally are weak, either way.


--
Ed Huntress

I agree. The minimum wage law could be eliminated with little
effect.

I think the minimum wage law is something the politicians dreamed up
to say they are doing something to help the poor. The latest idea is
to make unpaid internships illegal. There goes Monica Lewinsky.


Dan

"Ignoramus11457" wrote in message
...
On 2010-04-28, Ed Huntress wrote:

Well, I don't know how useful these tips are, but it's good to see how
many
people have a sense of humor about kicking the bucket. g

When I was young -- in my teens -- I wanted to be stuffed and mounted,
sitting on top of my headstone. Then I realized that would be a terrible
waste of resources, and it wouldn't last very long.


When I die, I want a bronze statue of me made, on a horse, holding a
adjustable wrench in the right arm, and a laptop in the left.

Hey, that's a good one. If I did that it would have to be a transmission
shift lever and a fly rod.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 23:11:05 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:
snip
You can find anecdotal examples to support one side or the other. But
correlating it with inflation or employment generally doesn't work. The
numbers just don't provide clear support.

--
Ed Huntress
=============
for aggrigate (un)employment rate correlation with inflation
adjusted minimum wage for Jan 54 - Oct 2006 see
http://mcduffee-associates.us/PE/minwage&unemp.xls

in summary

N R R-Square Std.Error

normal 633 0.23 0.05 1.24
corrected 0.23 0.05== no statistically significant
.. correlation


Equation
95%
Coefficient Conf. (±) Std.Error T P

Constant 4.75 0.15 0.08 62.47 0
Prez 0.6 0.2 0.1 6.04 0
{control of White House binary coded, 1 = republicans, 0 =
democrat}

I'll gen-up the same analysis for percent inflation v
inflation adjusted minimum wage, and offset the data to
discover any lag/lead effects. Remember no correlation
means there is nothing to explain and any attempt to do so
is simply more hot air and baffle gas.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

wrote in message
...
On Apr 26, 11:11 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:


All right. But economic effects of small policy changes, like raising the
minimum wage by 8% or 10%, generally are weak, either way.


--
Ed Huntress

I agree. The minimum wage law could be eliminated with little
effect.

Well, it has little effect on the overall economy. It has somewhat more
effect on some people to whom it applies.


I think the minimum wage law is something the politicians dreamed up
to say they are doing something to help the poor. The latest idea is
to make unpaid internships illegal. There goes Monica Lewinsky.

Wikipedia tells us that the first minimum wage law was enacted in New
Zealand, in the late 19th century. In the US, it was enacted to deal with
some of the abuses of sweatshops.

It's not something that I've spent much time looking into, but I think its
effect today doesn't amount to much, except, again, for the relatively small
group of people who are living on it.

--
Ed Huntress

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 23:11:05 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:
snip
You can find anecdotal examples to support one side or the other. But
correlating it with inflation or employment generally doesn't work. The
numbers just don't provide clear support.

--
Ed Huntress
=============
for aggrigate (un)employment rate correlation with inflation
adjusted minimum wage for Jan 54 - Oct 2006 see
http://mcduffee-associates.us/PE/minwage&unemp.xls

in summary

N R R-Square Std.Error

normal 633 0.23 0.05 1.24
corrected 0.23 0.05== no statistically significant
. correlation


Equation
95%
Coefficient Conf. (±) Std.Error T P

Constant 4.75 0.15 0.08 62.47 0
Prez 0.6 0.2 0.1 6.04 0
{control of White House binary coded, 1 = republicans, 0 =
democrat}

I'll gen-up the same analysis for percent inflation v
inflation adjusted minimum wage, and offset the data to
discover any lag/lead effects. Remember no correlation
means there is nothing to explain and any attempt to do so
is simply more hot air and baffle gas.

Right. And there's plenty of that going around here. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Apr 27, 9:49*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

Well, it has little effect on the overall economy. It has somewhat more
effect on some people to whom it applies.



It's not something that I've spent much time looking into, but I think its
effect today doesn't amount to much, except, again, for the relatively small
group of people who are living on it.

--
Ed Huntress

And for the relatively small group of people who are not working
because of it. So it balances out. Black teenagers do not get a job
and learn skills. Others earn slightly more because of it. Monica
can not work for free and show she has the talent for a high paying
job.

Dan

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 19:45:07 -0500, the infamous Ignoramus11457
scrawled the following:

On 2010-04-28, Ed Huntress wrote:

Well, I don't know how useful these tips are, but it's good to see how many
people have a sense of humor about kicking the bucket. g

When I was young -- in my teens -- I wanted to be stuffed and mounted,
sitting on top of my headstone. Then I realized that would be a terrible
waste of resources, and it wouldn't last very long.


When I die, I want a bronze statue of me made, on a horse, holding a
adjustable wrench in the right arm, and a laptop in the left.

Might I suggest an inscription? Thank you.

"Ig: Casting trolls even beyond his lifetime."

--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 19:45:07 -0500, the infamous Ignoramus11457
scrawled the following:

On 2010-04-28, Ed Huntress wrote:

Well, I don't know how useful these tips are, but it's good to see how many
people have a sense of humor about kicking the bucket. g

When I was young -- in my teens -- I wanted to be stuffed and mounted,
sitting on top of my headstone. Then I realized that would be a terrible
waste of resources, and it wouldn't last very long.


When I die, I want a bronze statue of me made, on a horse, holding a
adjustable wrench in the right arm, and a laptop in the left.

Might I suggest an inscription? Thank you.

"Ig: Casting trolls even beyond his lifetime."


Let him waste the money. Someone will be along shortly with a truck
& sledgehammer to haul it in as scrap metal. Since he's in Chicago, it
might not even make it to the graveyard. People are stealing brass
vases from cemeteries, all over the country.

On Apr 27, 5:24*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"rangerssuck" wrote in message

...
On Apr 27, 12:59 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:





"Mark Rand" wrote in message

.. .

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 08:56:48 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:

"cavelamb" wrote in message
newsbydnbsQftyiA0vWnZ2dnUVZ_s4AAAAA@earthlink. com...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"RAM³" wrote in message
31.10...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:

First we need to decide what a basic human life is worth. The rest
follows.
It's worth the cost of taking it.

Mine'll be bloody expensive and, I'd imagine, so would yours be.

A lot of others are very cheap.

If you're referring to how we go out, I'm planning on the cheapest
route
possible: Incineration, with an empty coffee can for an urn. Then my
family is to throw one hell of a party with the savings. d8-)

Your idea of "going out" seems kind of "after the fact".

I could have said "how we're disposed of," but that sounds like
something
you do with old apple cores.

I have a much younger brother in law that works in a dog/cat food
factory
:-)

Sorry. I don't want to be accused of poisoning dogs.

--
Ed Huntress
The instructions here are to lean my carcass against a tree on garbage
day, perhaps with a $20 bill stuck in my mouth to bribe the trash
collectors.

Oh, man, you have no respect for the dead at all. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

I have a very firm conviction that dead is dead.

wrote in message
...
On Apr 27, 9:49 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

Well, it has little effect on the overall economy. It has somewhat more
effect on some people to whom it applies.



It's not something that I've spent much time looking into, but I think its
effect today doesn't amount to much, except, again, for the relatively
small
group of people who are living on it.

--
Ed Huntress

And for the relatively small group of people who are not working
because of it. So it balances out. Black teenagers do not get a job
and learn skills. Others earn slightly more because of it. Monica
can not work for free and show she has the talent for a high paying
job.

Dan

I'm not going to argue with that, and you seem to have a good sense of the
situation, but there's one more point here, one that I've never looked into
deeply but with which I have some personal, anecdotal experience.

Most jobs that pay minumum wage are jobs in small businesses. By far the
largest proportion of them is in the food-services industry, especially
independent restaurants, etc. The average age of someone making minimum wage
in California, for example, is 33 years. Minimum-wage workers also reflect a
sizeable number of teenagers, and they are disproportionally women.

In most small businesses, those workers are essential to doing business.
They're a "fixed resource requirement." Thus, in California businesses
overall, an increase in the minimum wage 5 years ago is claimed to have
raised their costs by 0.7%. But in food services, it was 2.7%.

So you can see that increasing a minimum wage does effect a small increase
in costs among the kinds of businesses that have the largest proportion of
such workers. They need those workers, and the number of workers they hire
is largely inflexible in regard to wages.

I haven't ever investigated the numbers more than that, but the point is
that where people have few opportunities to work for higher wages, increases
in the minimum wage provide the greatest benefit to workers. The other side
of that coin, as you point out, is that larger businesses that hire some
workers at minimum wage will hire fewer workers, because they *do* tend to
have some flexibility regarding the number of workers they have, and they're
playing the game on a cost/benefit basis.

Those are the places where increasing minimum wage can hurt workers, by
reducing the number of opportunities they have to work and learn skills that
will move them up the ladder. It's my strong suspicion, however, that there
are few of those jobs to begin with, because larger businesses tend to pay
more than minimum wage to start.

It's not a simple thing to sort out, and doing so would require a LOT of
research work. On the face of it, however, it's hard to believe that
increasing the minimum wage really reduces many opportunities for workers,
or potential workers.

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:46:03 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:
snip
I'll gen-up the same analysis for percent inflation v
inflation adjusted minimum wage, and offset the data to
discover any lag/lead effects. Remember no correlation
means there is nothing to explain and any attempt to do so
is simply more hot air and baffle gas.
snip

For those of us that give a $**t see
http://mcduffee-associates.us/PE/minwage-inf.xls

summary:
Added 28 April 2010 -- A XLS file of inflation data as un
adjusted CPI-U, delta from previous month, percent change
from previous month. Minimum wage data in CY$ and cpi-u
March 2010 CV$ , offset 0, 1, 3, and 6 months to detect any
lagging effects. Data by month for Dec 1949-Mar 2010. Not
all possible combinations were analyzed, but the month
number [to include the "march of time" effect] had at least
as large a correlation to "inflation" as either the CY$ or
CV$ minimum wage. Any correlations are minuscule, and it
can be concluded that minimum wage increases, within the
data set limits has no effect on the inflation rate.

Thus any attempt to posit a correlation between US inflation
rate, within the data set limits and an increase in US
minimum wage is simply so much hot air, as there is AT
MOST minimal correlation with second order effects.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:46:03 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:
snip
I'll gen-up the same analysis for percent inflation v
inflation adjusted minimum wage, and offset the data to
discover any lag/lead effects. Remember no correlation
means there is nothing to explain and any attempt to do so
is simply more hot air and baffle gas.
snip

For those of us that give a $**t see
http://mcduffee-associates.us/PE/minwage-inf.xls

summary:
Added 28 April 2010 -- A XLS file of inflation data as un
adjusted CPI-U, delta from previous month, percent change
from previous month. Minimum wage data in CY$ and cpi-u
March 2010 CV$ , offset 0, 1, 3, and 6 months to detect any
lagging effects. Data by month for Dec 1949-Mar 2010. Not
all possible combinations were analyzed, but the month
number [to include the "march of time" effect] had at least
as large a correlation to "inflation" as either the CY$ or
CV$ minimum wage. Any correlations are minuscule, and it
can be concluded that minimum wage increases, within the
data set limits has no effect on the inflation rate.

Thus any attempt to posit a correlation between US inflation
rate, within the data set limits and an increase in US
minimum wage is simply so much hot air, as there is AT
MOST minimal correlation with second order effects.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

That's very convincing, George. Now, how much effect do you think it has on
Tawwwwwm and the rest of the minimum-wage hawks? g

It should be clear now that, when it conflicts with personal stories, real
or imaginary, or when it conflicts with ideology-based beliefs, the facts
don't stand a chance in this NG.

I hope you enjoy the exercise, because that's all we're going to get from
honestly seeking out the facts.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:06:35 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:46:03 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:
snip
I'll gen-up the same analysis for percent inflation v
inflation adjusted minimum wage, and offset the data to
discover any lag/lead effects. Remember no correlation
means there is nothing to explain and any attempt to do so
is simply more hot air and baffle gas.
snip

For those of us that give a $**t see
http://mcduffee-associates.us/PE/minwage-inf.xls

summary:
Added 28 April 2010 -- A XLS file of inflation data as un
adjusted CPI-U, delta from previous month, percent change
from previous month. Minimum wage data in CY$ and cpi-u
March 2010 CV$ , offset 0, 1, 3, and 6 months to detect any
lagging effects. Data by month for Dec 1949-Mar 2010. Not
all possible combinations were analyzed, but the month
number [to include the "march of time" effect] had at least
as large a correlation to "inflation" as either the CY$ or
CV$ minimum wage. Any correlations are minuscule, and it
can be concluded that minimum wage increases, within the
data set limits has no effect on the inflation rate.

Thus any attempt to posit a correlation between US inflation
rate, within the data set limits and an increase in US
minimum wage is simply so much hot air, as there is AT
MOST minimal correlation with second order effects.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

That's very convincing, George. Now, how much effect do you think it has on
Tawwwwwm and the rest of the minimum-wage hawks? g

It should be clear now that, when it conflicts with personal stories, real
or imaginary, or when it conflicts with ideology-based beliefs, the facts
don't stand a chance in this NG.
Why single out this ng? That's life.

I hope you enjoy the exercise, because that's all we're going to get from
honestly seeking out the facts.
===========
Like Will Rogers said
"It ain't what you don't know that hurts you --
its what you know that just ain't so."


Unka George (George McDuffee)
...............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:06:35 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:46:03 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:
snip
I'll gen-up the same analysis for percent inflation v
inflation adjusted minimum wage, and offset the data to
discover any lag/lead effects. Remember no correlation
means there is nothing to explain and any attempt to do so
is simply more hot air and baffle gas.
snip

For those of us that give a $**t see
http://mcduffee-associates.us/PE/minwage-inf.xls

summary:
Added 28 April 2010 -- A XLS file of inflation data as un
adjusted CPI-U, delta from previous month, percent change
from previous month. Minimum wage data in CY$ and cpi-u
March 2010 CV$ , offset 0, 1, 3, and 6 months to detect any
lagging effects. Data by month for Dec 1949-Mar 2010. Not
all possible combinations were analyzed, but the month
number [to include the "march of time" effect] had at least
as large a correlation to "inflation" as either the CY$ or
CV$ minimum wage. Any correlations are minuscule, and it
can be concluded that minimum wage increases, within the
data set limits has no effect on the inflation rate.

Thus any attempt to posit a correlation between US inflation
rate, within the data set limits and an increase in US
minimum wage is simply so much hot air, as there is AT
MOST minimal correlation with second order effects.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

That's very convincing, George. Now, how much effect do you think it has
on
Tawwwwwm and the rest of the minimum-wage hawks? g

It should be clear now that, when it conflicts with personal stories, real
or imaginary, or when it conflicts with ideology-based beliefs, the facts
don't stand a chance in this NG.

Why single out this ng? That's life.


Not as much. This group -- and the pestholes that messages posted here are
often linked to -- contains a disproportionate percentage of people who are
especially invested in their preconceived ideas. In my experience, anyway.

It's an interesting window on that psychological behavior. I have no
illusions that the most careful, fact-based arguments will overcome it.

In real life, I just happen to run into a higher percentage of people who
are open to reason over ideology. Your efforts here are careful enough, and
thorough enough, that I have to react with a cynical smile. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On 4/27/2010 5:36 PM, wrote:
On Apr 27, 5:06 pm, wrote:


I know the facts. Most Americans work their whole lives and
have jack **** when they die. And here everybody thought you would get
ahead if you just worked hard. But nope, it only works that way for the
lucky ones. Welcome to reality.

Hawke

You still have not said where you get this 2% figure.

Have you looked at the retirement packages for police and other city
employees?

Dan



Actually, I've heard the 2% figure numerous times. But it's been in
different places and over the years. The last time I heard it was at a
real estate seminar I attended a few years ago by one of the real estate
gurus, Russ Whitney I think, but he has written several books on making
money on real estate and is a multimillionaire. He was touting the
benefits of buying homes to get ahead like he did. He mentioned the 2%
number.

Also remember that two good income earners like a policeman and a nurse
can have a good pension plan that keeps them in a good lifestyle after
retiring. But they don't usually have the million dollars worth of
assets needed to provide the income for a non government supplemented
retirement. What really tells you how much someone has is what they
leave when they die. If you want to know look into how many estates over
a million dollars are dispersed each year. It's not that big a number
and you have to have a few million if you really are taking good care of
yourself without any help. That's the reason why we have the social
safety net programs. Without them the country would be full of people
living below the poverty level.

Hawke

On Apr 28, 7:54*pm, Hawke wrote:


Actually, I've heard the 2% figure numerous times. But it's been in
different places and over the years. The last time I heard it was at a
real estate seminar I attended a few years ago by one of the real estate
gurus, Russ Whitney I think, but he has written several books on making
money on real estate and is a multimillionaire. He was touting the
benefits of buying homes to get ahead like he did. He mentioned the 2%
number.



Hawke

Kind of what I thought. The 2% is not backed by some reference.

For what it is worth, the book " The Millionaire Next Door " has a
table near the back. The table has 5,625,408 as the number of
millionaires in the US in 2005. And gives 5,239 per 100,000 house
holds. So that would be 5 1/4 % .

So maybe the number of millionaires is close to 1 in 19 instead of 1
in 50.

Dan

On Apr 28, 1:23*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:


It's not a simple thing to sort out, and doing so would require a LOT of
research work. On the face of it, however, it's hard to believe that
increasing theminimumwagereally reduces many opportunities for workers,
or potential workers.

--
Ed Huntress

And on the face of it, however, it is hard to believe that increasing
the minimum wage greatly helps many workers.

Dan