For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about
the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local
school district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab
to be replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I
would thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy
- but after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years
ago, I understand why the school district is doing as they are.

Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro
Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred
less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to
a 13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/
DROs, several of each, selling for $600 to $900.

Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this
was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I
found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there
were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there
buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement
age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster.

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700, aribert wrote:

For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about
the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local school
district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab to be
replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I would
thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy - but
after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years ago, I
understand why the school district is doing as they are.

Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro
Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred
less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to a
13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/ DROs,
several of each, selling for $600 to $900.

Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this was
the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I found
most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there were a
few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there buying
equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement age and
up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster.

I have this ongoing nightmare that at some point we're going to
collectively realize that we really _do_ need to do manufacturing to
thrive, but everyone who knows how will be in rest homes or underground.

I sure hope I'm wrong.

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700, aribert wrote:

For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about
the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local school
district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab to be
replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I would
thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy - but
after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years ago, I
understand why the school district is doing as they are.

Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro
Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred
less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to a
13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/ DROs,
several of each, selling for $600 to $900.

Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this was
the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I found
most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there were a
few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there buying
equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement age and
up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster.

I have this ongoing nightmare that at some point we're going to
collectively realize that we really _do_ need to do manufacturing to
thrive, but everyone who knows how will be in rest homes or underground.

I sure hope I'm wrong.

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I bet you are not.

Machinery and cars are the same: you covet what you couldn't have when
you were in high school. If you had machine classes in HS, you would
want to buy some when you have both the money and the time.

My local HS took out ALL of the 'Technology' (shop) classes in 1992.
Around 90 % of our Metro area HS do not have any shop classes.

wrote:
For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about
the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local
school district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab
to be replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I
would thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy
- but after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years
ago, I understand why the school district is doing as they are.

Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro
Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred
less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to
a 13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/
DROs, several of each, selling for $600 to $900.

Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this
was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I
found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there
were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there
buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement
age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster.

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about
the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local
school district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab
to be replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I
would thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy
- but after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years
ago, I understand why the school district is doing as they are.

Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro
Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred
less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to
a 13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/
DROs, several of each, selling for $600 to $900.

Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this
was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I
found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there
were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there
buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement
age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster.
Nobody under 50 knows what the equipment is even FOR, muchless how
to use it.

wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about
the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local
school district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab
to be replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I
would thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy
- but after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years
ago, I understand why the school district is doing as they are.

Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro
Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred
less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to
a 13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/
DROs, several of each, selling for $600 to $900.

Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this
was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I
found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there
were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there
buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement
age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster.
Nobody under 50 knows what the equipment is even FOR, muchless how
to use it.

I have a couple of restored minilathes from the 1930s sitting in my
library area. Nobody under 50 even notices them.

On 2009-04-07, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about
the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local
school district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab
to be replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I
would thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy
- but after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years
ago, I understand why the school district is doing as they are.

Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro
Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred
less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to
a 13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/
DROs, several of each, selling for $600 to $900.

Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this
was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I
found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there
were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there
buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement
age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster.
Nobody under 50 knows what the equipment is even FOR, muchless how
to use it.

you gotta be kidding me.

i

wrote:

Nobody under 50 knows what the equipment is even FOR, muchless how
to use it.

Not true. I'm 39 and I know what the equipment is for, how to use it,
and own a fair amount of it (ever growing).

Tim sez:

"I have this ongoing nightmare that at some point we're going to
collectively realize that we really _do_ need to do manufacturing to
thrive, but everyone who knows how will be in rest homes or underground."

Yep! It goes right along with the MIS - MIT group in the future when they want to really build a
computer; only to find out the last old guy that understood Ohm's law died the week before.

Bob (software ain't engineering) Swinney

Robert Swinney wrote:


Bob (software ain't engineering) Swinney

Actually writing good software *is* engineering, however a large
percentage of folks who call themselves "programmers" are not and in
fact do little more than glue together pre-fab code library components
to produce horribly bloated and inefficient "applications".

"Tim" #__#@__.- wrote:

I bet you are not.

Bye twit.

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:08:53 -0400, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

"Tim" #__#@__.- wrote:

I bet you are not.

Bye twit.

DAYAM! Took you long enough...

--
You can't do anything about the length of your life,
but you _can_ do something about its width and depth.
-- Evan Esar

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:08:53 -0400, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

"Tim" #__#@__.- wrote:

I bet you are not.

Bye twit.

DAYAM! Took you long enough...

The bad thing is when I kill filed him, agent took out tim Wescott. #__# is using regex
stuff that confuses agent.

Something to look into. Re-downloading headers to get Mr Wescott back atm.


Wes

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Tim" #__#@__.- wrote:

I bet you are not.

Bye twit.

How does Tim agreeing with Tim Westcott make him a twit? Other than being a
"me too" post, what is the offense?

Pete C. wrote:
Actually writing good software *is* engineering, ...

I was a software "engineer" for 25 years before retiring in '92. Maybe
things have changed since then (although I doubt it), but in my career I
never did myself, or saw, or heard about, or read about someone using
math to analyze the behavior of software. That is the essence of
"engineering": the use of math models, based on science, to analyze &
predict the behavior of a design. Be it electrical, mechanical, civil,
chemical, metallurgical, whatever real engineering. All based on
science. Software is NOT included.

Don't get me started on "computer science".

Bob

Tim Wescott wrote:

I have this ongoing nightmare that at some point we're going to
collectively realize that we really _do_ need to do manufacturing to
thrive, but everyone who knows how will be in rest homes or underground.

I sure hope I'm wrong.


There are so many skills that are dying away with the craftsmen. Hobbyists seem to be
keep the flames alive for a while longer.

Wes

PS

Don't filter on name and author guys to get rid of Author: Tim #__#@__.-
I couldn't seem to get escaping the regex chars to work and name and author just sees tim
and wipes out Tim Wescot and that troll guy.
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"ATP*" wrote:

Bye twit.

How does Tim agreeing with Tim Westcott make him a twit? Other than being a
"me too" post, what is the offense?

I didn't take it as agreement.

Wes

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Actually writing good software *is* engineering, ...

I was a software "engineer" for 25 years before retiring in '92. Maybe
things have changed since then (although I doubt it), but in my career I
never did myself, or saw, or heard about, or read about someone using
math to analyze the behavior of software. That is the essence of
"engineering": the use of math models, based on science, to analyze &
predict the behavior of a design. Be it electrical, mechanical, civil,
chemical, metallurgical, whatever real engineering. All based on
science. Software is NOT included.

Don't get me started on "computer science".

Bob

I don't know what sort of software development you were involved in, but
I do see folks applying math to analyze software all the time -- to
insure performance, to insure that it'll do what it's supposed to do, to
make sure it'll fit into the available space on an embedded processor,
all of that.

But then, I've seen all of the above discipline ignored, too. Many
folks who call themselves "software engineers" are just programmers.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Wes wrote:
PS

Don't filter on name and author guys to get rid of Author: Tim #__#@__.-
I couldn't seem to get escaping the regex chars to work and name and author just sees tim
and wipes out Tim Wescot and that troll guy.

That'll depend on your newsreader. 'tis unfortunate, though.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:31:51 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Actually writing good software *is* engineering, ...

I was a software "engineer" for 25 years before retiring in '92. Maybe
things have changed since then (although I doubt it), but in my career I
never did myself, or saw, or heard about, or read about someone using
math to analyze the behavior of software. That is the essence of
"engineering": the use of math models, based on science, to analyze &
predict the behavior of a design. Be it electrical, mechanical, civil,
chemical, metallurgical, whatever real engineering. All based on
science. Software is NOT included.

Don't get me started on "computer science".

Bob

Some fairly heavy-duty math is behind software that does:
secure computing
encryption and decryption
compression
image processing
some controls, particularly controls that must not fail like
flight controls, refineries, etc.

I'd agree that few of the engineers I knew that did this sort of work
were computer scientists.

Tim Wescott wrote:

I couldn't seem to get escaping the regex chars to work and name and author just sees tim
and wipes out Tim Wescot and that troll guy.

That'll depend on your newsreader. 'tis unfortunate, though.


Agent wiped you out, but downloading all headers after deleting the filter got you back.
I'll use the organic filter and the delete key for the other "Tim" until I figure this
out.

Wes

On Apr 7, 11:52*am, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700, aribert wrote:
For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about
the deals on gently used equipment. *Saturday a week ago my local school
district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab to be
replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. *Ten years ago I would
thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy - but
after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years ago, I
understand why the school district is doing as they are.

Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro
Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred
less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to a
13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). *Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/ DROs,
several of each, selling for $600 to $900.

Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this was
the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. *What I found
most interesting was the age of the participants. *WHile there were a
few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there buying
equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement age and
up. *As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster.

I have this ongoing nightmare that at some point we're going to
collectively realize that we really _do_ need to do manufacturing to
thrive, but everyone who knows how will be in rest homes or underground.

I sure hope I'm wrong.

--http://www.wescottdesign.com

Won't matter because we will either all be living off of the
government and it's phoney money by then or we will allow our conquers
to move us back into the 16th century

Don Foreman wrote:
Some fairly heavy-duty math is behind software that does:
secure computing
encryption and decryption
compression
image processing
some controls, particularly controls that must not fail like
flight controls, refineries, etc.
....

I wouldn't disagree, but the key here is "... is behind software ...".
I.e., the math is the content, if you will, rather than the tool used to
develop the software. The math is in the coded algorithms, rather than
being an outside analytical tool.

I could be wrong, of course - it has been 17 years since I retired. If
so, I'd be very interested in seeing how software is modeled. Just
hearing what the parameters are would be interesting. Maybe I should
find a software NG to ask.

Bob

Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:31:51 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Actually writing good software *is* engineering, ...
I was a software "engineer" for 25 years before retiring in '92. Maybe
things have changed since then (although I doubt it), but in my career I
never did myself, or saw, or heard about, or read about someone using
math to analyze the behavior of software. That is the essence of
"engineering": the use of math models, based on science, to analyze &
predict the behavior of a design. Be it electrical, mechanical, civil,
chemical, metallurgical, whatever real engineering. All based on
science. Software is NOT included.

Don't get me started on "computer science".

Bob

Some fairly heavy-duty math is behind software that does:
secure computing
encryption and decryption
compression
image processing
some controls, particularly controls that must not fail like
flight controls, refineries, etc.

I'd agree that few of the engineers I knew that did this sort of work
were computer scientists.




I'm an "Electrical Engineer". I do 95% digital work and freely admit
that most of what I do is not engineering. My heavy lifting math skills
have degraded significantly since graduation in 1981 due to lack of use.
Most of the engineers I work with (mechanical, electrical, software,
systems, optical) lean very heavily on computer simulation of one sort
or another to do the math for them. Actually calculating, or even
estimating in your head and even on paper seems a lost art. I was
trying to get a couple of engineers to look at an alternative way to
calculate Standard Deviation. One guy found it on the web, but nobody
trusted it. It took me about 2 minutes to prove equivalence with the
standard form of the equation, pretty simple algebra, expand the square
of a difference, distributive property, definition of average, rearrange
terms. No one seemed to be able to follow it, or want to try it even
though it significantly reduced hardware memory requirements.

CarlBoyd

My own programming involves mathematical modeling of financial
derivatives prices, which is in many ways akin to mathematical physics
models. That's heavy duty math involving partial derivatives, and
such.

i

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about
the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local
school district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab
to be replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I
would thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy
- but after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years
ago, I understand why the school district is doing as they are.

Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro
Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred
less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to
a 13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/
DROs, several of each, selling for $600 to $900.

Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this
was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I
found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there
were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there
buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement
age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster.
-------------
Your observation parallels what I have observed, not only at
machine shop auctions but also farm auctions in this area [SE
Kansas].

As several people have observed, the US is going to be screwed
but good when we have to start making stuff again in this
country, even if its the repair parts to keep the obsolete
equipment running because the parts are no longer available or
because the foreign producers want too much money in US dollar
terms.

I can't fault the people that are not going into the machining
trades or agriculture, because if they are smart enough to make
it there, they are smart enough to make it somewhere else with a
lot less effort, a lot less investment, and much better working
conditions.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"ATP*" wrote:

Bye twit.

How does Tim agreeing with Tim Westcott make him a twit? Other than being
a
"me too" post, what is the offense?

I didn't take it as agreement.

Wes

" I sure hope I'm wrong.

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I bet you are not."

I took that as "I bet you are not wrong".

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:26:25 -0400, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:08:53 -0400, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

"Tim" #__#@__.- wrote:

I bet you are not.

Bye twit.

DAYAM! Took you long enough...

The bad thing is when I kill filed him, agent took out tim Wescott. #__# is using regex
stuff that confuses agent.

Something to look into. Re-downloading headers to get Mr Wescott back atm.

I used "Tim", with the quotes and it removed only the bad guy
immediately.

--
You can't do anything about the length of your life,
but you _can_ do something about its width and depth.
-- Evan Esar

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:42:41 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:
Some fairly heavy-duty math is behind software that does:
secure computing
encryption and decryption
compression
image processing
some controls, particularly controls that must not fail like
flight controls, refineries, etc.
...

I wouldn't disagree, but the key here is "... is behind software ...".
I.e., the math is the content, if you will, rather than the tool used to
develop the software. The math is in the coded algorithms, rather than
being an outside analytical tool.

I could be wrong, of course - it has been 17 years since I retired. If
so, I'd be very interested in seeing how software is modeled. Just
hearing what the parameters are would be interesting. Maybe I should
find a software NG to ask.

Bob

I understand the distinction. My understanding of how well-designed
software is designed and modelled is very sketchy but I worked with
people who did it very well indeed. The software was every bit as
robust as the hardware that executed it. Design was done before
coding ever started and typically accounted for 80% of the effort.
Well-designed robust software is not and can not be tinkered, hacked
or debugged into existance any more than good hardware is.

I'll forward your question to a friend and former colleague I highly
respect who knows a whole lot more than I do about this subject. He
might respond by email.

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 21:24:58 -0400, "ATP*"
wrote:


"Wes" wrote in message
...
"ATP*" wrote:

Bye twit.

How does Tim agreeing with Tim Westcott make him a twit? Other than being
a
"me too" post, what is the offense?

I didn't take it as agreement.

Wes

" I sure hope I'm wrong.

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I bet you are not."

I took that as "I bet you are not wrong".
That's how I read it too.

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700, aribert wrote:

For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about
the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local school
district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab to be
replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I would
thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy - but
after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years ago, I
understand why the school district is doing as they are.

Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro
Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred
less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to a
13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/ DROs,
several of each, selling for $600 to $900.

Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this was
the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I found
most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there were a
few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there buying
equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement age and
up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster.

I have this ongoing nightmare that at some point we're going to
collectively realize that we really _do_ need to do manufacturing to
thrive, but everyone who knows how will be in rest homes or underground.

I sure hope I'm wrong.

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com


I don't know if it will make you feel any better Tim, but we have exactly
the same problem here on theother side of the world. Australia has lost most
of its manufacturing skills and, if it did decide to go back into
manufacturing, would have to purchase all its manufacturing machinery from
China. If it wasn't for mining we would be rooted!

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Actually writing good software *is* engineering, ...

I was a software "engineer" for 25 years before retiring in '92. Maybe
things have changed since then (although I doubt it), but in my career I
never did myself, or saw, or heard about, or read about someone using
math to analyze the behavior of software. That is the essence of
"engineering": the use of math models, based on science, to analyze &
predict the behavior of a design. Be it electrical, mechanical, civil,
chemical, metallurgical, whatever real engineering. All based on
science. Software is NOT included.

Don't get me started on "computer science".

Bob

I don't know what sort of software development you were involved in, but I
do see folks applying math to analyze software all the time -- to insure
performance, to insure that it'll do what it's supposed to do, to make
sure it'll fit into the available space on an embedded processor, all of
that.

But then, I've seen all of the above discipline ignored, too. Many folks
who call themselves "software engineers" are just programmers.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Very true except for Windows programming. I spent a lot of my career doing
embedded software for disk drives, disk controllers and biomed. We used
lots of math to analyze performance and benchmarks. Doing some windows
stuff for the laptops to control the devices, never was analyzed, and most
did not. Lots written in Visual Basic. Bloat city. Fact is the disk drive
patent I have, uses sine**2 + Cos**2 = 1 At least some math there.

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Tim" #__#@__.- wrote:

I bet you are not.

Bye twit.

Why, I was agreeing with you.

Larry Jaques wrote:

DAYAM! Took you long enough...


I didn't over react? With the latest batch of crap, my kill filter and delete thread
finger is working on overtime.

Wes
--
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well
please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the
consequences." -- PJ O'Rourke

Bob Engelhardt,

Hey Bob ! Your kind reply re. computer science after my closing remark (ain't engineering) took
real guts. For a genuine software engineer to fess up and tell it like it is was refreshing dialog,
to say the very least. Please know I did not mean to denigrate the efforts and passions of "real"
software engineers in any way. My closing was aimed at that peculiar bunch of keyboard peckers who
seek to elicit the respect and admiration due to another and wildly divergent branch of technology.
Note I didn't say "Engineering". Very respectfully,

Bob Swinney


"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message ...
Pete C. wrote:
Actually writing good software *is* engineering, ...

I was a software "engineer" for 25 years before retiring in '92. Maybe
things have changed since then (although I doubt it), but in my career I
never did myself, or saw, or heard about, or read about someone using
math to analyze the behavior of software. That is the essence of
"engineering": the use of math models, based on science, to analyze &
predict the behavior of a design. Be it electrical, mechanical, civil,
chemical, metallurgical, whatever real engineering. All based on
science. Software is NOT included.

Don't get me started on "computer science".

Bob

On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:13:25 -0400, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:

DAYAM! Took you long enough...


I didn't over react? With the latest batch of crap, my kill filter and delete thread
finger is working on overtime.

I set aside one finger, full-time, for that purpose alone. I only see
about 40% of the group threads now, and it would be less if Agent
would let me filter out any specific poster or posts with their
quotations in it. I continue to hammer at Forte for that function or
a full-text filter. My guess is that it would slow things down a lot,
but I for one would be happy to put up with that in trade. shrug

--
You can't do anything about the length of your life,
but you _can_ do something about its width and depth.
-- Evan Esar

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:13:25 -0400, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:

DAYAM! Took you long enough...


I didn't over react? With the latest batch of crap, my kill filter and delete thread
finger is working on overtime.

I set aside one finger, full-time, for that purpose alone. I only see
about 40% of the group threads now, and it would be less if Agent
would let me filter out any specific poster or posts with their
quotations in it. I continue to hammer at Forte for that function or
a full-text filter. My guess is that it would slow things down a lot,
but I for one would be happy to put up with that in trade. shrug


Use Newsproxy to prefilter the crap.

--
And another motherboard bites the dust!

On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 00:49:41 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

I took that as "I bet you are not wrong".
That's how I read it too.

Guess I blew it. Sorry Tim.

wes

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:12:10 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this
was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I
found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there
were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there
buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement
age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster.
-------------
Your observation parallels what I have observed, not only at
machine shop auctions but also farm auctions in this area [SE
Kansas].
-------------------
This appears to be a world wide problem in that in their drive to
"modernize," the governmental and private policy makers have
"eaten the seed corn."

What was sold as progress and profit has turned out to be capital
consumption/disipation.

Just as manufacturing is not sustainable unless you continually
update/maintain your machines, manpower, methods, products &
equipment, farming is not sustainable when you deplete resources
such as water and gouge on inputs such as credit, insecticide,
fertilizer and seed.

India did however manage to speed up the process. It took the
U.S. about 100 years 1865-1965 to go through the cycle. India
did it in less than a generation.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=102893816

{includes audio if you have good internet connection}


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:05:18 -0500, Ignoramus7501
wrote:

My own programming involves mathematical modeling of financial
derivatives prices, which is in many ways akin to mathematical physics
models. That's heavy duty math involving partial derivatives, and
such.

i
-------------
Any comments that you can make about why Monte Carlo simulation
is not being used for the bank "stress" tests?

It would appear that the range of outcomes and probabilities this
generates would be far more useful that the expected pass/fail
rankings.

The distributions of most of the inputs/metrics such as prime
interest rates, unemployment, money market interest rates, etc.
should be the same across all institutions.

Any thoughts on the use of Cauchy v normal distributions? Also
how do you rank the Excel add-ins for MC simulation/analysis?
Any good?


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).