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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about
the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local school district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab to be replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I would thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy - but after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years ago, I understand why the school district is doing as they are. Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to a 13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/ DROs, several of each, selling for $600 to $900. Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster. |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700, aribert wrote:
For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local school district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab to be replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I would thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy - but after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years ago, I understand why the school district is doing as they are. Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to a 13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/ DROs, several of each, selling for $600 to $900. Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster. I have this ongoing nightmare that at some point we're going to collectively realize that we really _do_ need to do manufacturing to thrive, but everyone who knows how will be in rest homes or underground. I sure hope I'm wrong. -- http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
"Tim Wescott" wrote in message ... On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700, aribert wrote: For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local school district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab to be replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I would thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy - but after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years ago, I understand why the school district is doing as they are. Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to a 13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/ DROs, several of each, selling for $600 to $900. Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster. I have this ongoing nightmare that at some point we're going to collectively realize that we really _do_ need to do manufacturing to thrive, but everyone who knows how will be in rest homes or underground. I sure hope I'm wrong. -- http://www.wescottdesign.com I bet you are not. |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
"Tim" #__#@__.- wrote:
I bet you are not. Bye twit. |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:08:53 -0400, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following: "Tim" #__#@__.- wrote: I bet you are not. Bye twit. DAYAM! Took you long enough... -- You can't do anything about the length of your life, but you _can_ do something about its width and depth. -- Evan Esar |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:08:53 -0400, the infamous Wes scrawled the following: "Tim" #__#@__.- wrote: I bet you are not. Bye twit. DAYAM! Took you long enough... The bad thing is when I kill filed him, agent took out tim Wescott. #__# is using regex stuff that confuses agent. Something to look into. Re-downloading headers to get Mr Wescott back atm. Wes |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
Larry Jaques wrote:
DAYAM! Took you long enough... I didn't over react? With the latest batch of crap, my kill filter and delete thread finger is working on overtime. Wes -- "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -- PJ O'Rourke |
#8
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
"Wes" wrote in message ... "Tim" #__#@__.- wrote: I bet you are not. Bye twit. How does Tim agreeing with Tim Westcott make him a twit? Other than being a "me too" post, what is the offense? |
#9
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
"ATP*" wrote:
Bye twit. How does Tim agreeing with Tim Westcott make him a twit? Other than being a "me too" post, what is the offense? I didn't take it as agreement. Wes |
#10
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
"Wes" wrote in message ... "Tim" #__#@__.- wrote: I bet you are not. Bye twit. Why, I was agreeing with you. |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
Tim sez:
"I have this ongoing nightmare that at some point we're going to collectively realize that we really _do_ need to do manufacturing to thrive, but everyone who knows how will be in rest homes or underground." Yep! It goes right along with the MIS - MIT group in the future when they want to really build a computer; only to find out the last old guy that understood Ohm's law died the week before. Bob (software ain't engineering) Swinney |
#12
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
Robert Swinney wrote: Bob (software ain't engineering) Swinney Actually writing good software *is* engineering, however a large percentage of folks who call themselves "programmers" are not and in fact do little more than glue together pre-fab code library components to produce horribly bloated and inefficient "applications". |
#13
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
Pete C. wrote:
Actually writing good software *is* engineering, ... I was a software "engineer" for 25 years before retiring in '92. Maybe things have changed since then (although I doubt it), but in my career I never did myself, or saw, or heard about, or read about someone using math to analyze the behavior of software. That is the essence of "engineering": the use of math models, based on science, to analyze & predict the behavior of a design. Be it electrical, mechanical, civil, chemical, metallurgical, whatever real engineering. All based on science. Software is NOT included. Don't get me started on "computer science". Bob |
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Pete C. wrote: Actually writing good software *is* engineering, ... I was a software "engineer" for 25 years before retiring in '92. Maybe things have changed since then (although I doubt it), but in my career I never did myself, or saw, or heard about, or read about someone using math to analyze the behavior of software. That is the essence of "engineering": the use of math models, based on science, to analyze & predict the behavior of a design. Be it electrical, mechanical, civil, chemical, metallurgical, whatever real engineering. All based on science. Software is NOT included. Don't get me started on "computer science". Bob I don't know what sort of software development you were involved in, but I do see folks applying math to analyze software all the time -- to insure performance, to insure that it'll do what it's supposed to do, to make sure it'll fit into the available space on an embedded processor, all of that. But then, I've seen all of the above discipline ignored, too. Many folks who call themselves "software engineers" are just programmers. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html |
#15
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:31:51 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote: Pete C. wrote: Actually writing good software *is* engineering, ... I was a software "engineer" for 25 years before retiring in '92. Maybe things have changed since then (although I doubt it), but in my career I never did myself, or saw, or heard about, or read about someone using math to analyze the behavior of software. That is the essence of "engineering": the use of math models, based on science, to analyze & predict the behavior of a design. Be it electrical, mechanical, civil, chemical, metallurgical, whatever real engineering. All based on science. Software is NOT included. Don't get me started on "computer science". Bob Some fairly heavy-duty math is behind software that does: secure computing encryption and decryption compression image processing some controls, particularly controls that must not fail like flight controls, refineries, etc. I'd agree that few of the engineers I knew that did this sort of work were computer scientists. |
#16
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
Bob Engelhardt,
Hey Bob ! Your kind reply re. computer science after my closing remark (ain't engineering) took real guts. For a genuine software engineer to fess up and tell it like it is was refreshing dialog, to say the very least. Please know I did not mean to denigrate the efforts and passions of "real" software engineers in any way. My closing was aimed at that peculiar bunch of keyboard peckers who seek to elicit the respect and admiration due to another and wildly divergent branch of technology. Note I didn't say "Engineering". Very respectfully, Bob Swinney "Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message ... Pete C. wrote: Actually writing good software *is* engineering, ... I was a software "engineer" for 25 years before retiring in '92. Maybe things have changed since then (although I doubt it), but in my career I never did myself, or saw, or heard about, or read about someone using math to analyze the behavior of software. That is the essence of "engineering": the use of math models, based on science, to analyze & predict the behavior of a design. Be it electrical, mechanical, civil, chemical, metallurgical, whatever real engineering. All based on science. Software is NOT included. Don't get me started on "computer science". Bob |
#17
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
Tim Wescott wrote:
I have this ongoing nightmare that at some point we're going to collectively realize that we really _do_ need to do manufacturing to thrive, but everyone who knows how will be in rest homes or underground. I sure hope I'm wrong. There are so many skills that are dying away with the craftsmen. Hobbyists seem to be keep the flames alive for a while longer. Wes PS Don't filter on name and author guys to get rid of Author: Tim #__#@__.- I couldn't seem to get escaping the regex chars to work and name and author just sees tim and wipes out Tim Wescot and that troll guy. -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
#18
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
Wes wrote:
PS Don't filter on name and author guys to get rid of Author: Tim #__#@__.- I couldn't seem to get escaping the regex chars to work and name and author just sees tim and wipes out Tim Wescot and that troll guy. That'll depend on your newsreader. 'tis unfortunate, though. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Do you need to implement control loops in software? "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you. See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html |
#19
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
Tim Wescott wrote:
I couldn't seem to get escaping the regex chars to work and name and author just sees tim and wipes out Tim Wescot and that troll guy. That'll depend on your newsreader. 'tis unfortunate, though. Agent wiped you out, but downloading all headers after deleting the filter got you back. I'll use the organic filter and the delete key for the other "Tim" until I figure this out. Wes |
#20
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
On Apr 7, 11:52*am, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700, aribert wrote: For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about the deals on gently used equipment. *Saturday a week ago my local school district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab to be replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. *Ten years ago I would thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy - but after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years ago, I understand why the school district is doing as they are. Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to a 13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). *Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/ DROs, several of each, selling for $600 to $900. Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. *What I found most interesting was the age of the participants. *WHile there were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement age and up. *As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster. I have this ongoing nightmare that at some point we're going to collectively realize that we really _do_ need to do manufacturing to thrive, but everyone who knows how will be in rest homes or underground. I sure hope I'm wrong. --http://www.wescottdesign.com Won't matter because we will either all be living off of the government and it's phoney money by then or we will allow our conquers to move us back into the 16th century |
#21
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
"Tim Wescott" wrote in message ... On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700, aribert wrote: For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local school district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab to be replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I would thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy - but after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years ago, I understand why the school district is doing as they are. Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to a 13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/ DROs, several of each, selling for $600 to $900. Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster. I have this ongoing nightmare that at some point we're going to collectively realize that we really _do_ need to do manufacturing to thrive, but everyone who knows how will be in rest homes or underground. I sure hope I'm wrong. -- http://www.wescottdesign.com I don't know if it will make you feel any better Tim, but we have exactly the same problem here on theother side of the world. Australia has lost most of its manufacturing skills and, if it did decide to go back into manufacturing, would have to purchase all its manufacturing machinery from China. If it wasn't for mining we would be rooted! |
#23
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
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#24
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote: For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local school district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab to be replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I would thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy - but after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years ago, I understand why the school district is doing as they are. Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to a 13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/ DROs, several of each, selling for $600 to $900. Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster. Nobody under 50 knows what the equipment is even FOR, muchless how to use it. I have a couple of restored minilathes from the 1930s sitting in my library area. Nobody under 50 even notices them. |
#25
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
On 2009-04-07, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:27:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote: For years I have wanted to go to a school auction - kept hearing about the deals on gently used equipment. Saturday a week ago my local school district was having an auction to liquidate the machining lab to be replaced by a computer lab - I decided to go. Ten years ago I would thought that getting rid of manufacturing skills was poor policy - but after watching so many tool & die shops go under a few years ago, I understand why the school district is doing as they are. Even though we are nearly in Depression level of economy here in Metro Detroit, machine tools were still reasonably priced (a couple hundred less and I would have been upgrading from my Clausing 5914 w/o DRO to a 13x40 Sharp w/ DRO). Manual lathes and mills were Sharp brand, w/ DROs, several of each, selling for $600 to $900. Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster. Nobody under 50 knows what the equipment is even FOR, muchless how to use it. you gotta be kidding me. i |
#26
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
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#27
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
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#28
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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I went to a school (machinery) auction
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:12:10 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote: Having attended about 40+ machinery auctions in the past 8 yrs, this was the first time that I attended an auction on a Saturday. What I found most interesting was the age of the participants. WHile there were a few dealers and a few (younger) shop owners / managers there buying equipment, the majority of attendees appeared to be retirement age and up. As a fifty year old, I felt like I was a youngster. ------------- Your observation parallels what I have observed, not only at machine shop auctions but also farm auctions in this area [SE Kansas]. ------------------- This appears to be a world wide problem in that in their drive to "modernize," the governmental and private policy makers have "eaten the seed corn." What was sold as progress and profit has turned out to be capital consumption/disipation. Just as manufacturing is not sustainable unless you continually update/maintain your machines, manpower, methods, products & equipment, farming is not sustainable when you deplete resources such as water and gouge on inputs such as credit, insecticide, fertilizer and seed. India did however manage to speed up the process. It took the U.S. about 100 years 1865-1965 to go through the cycle. India did it in less than a generation. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=102893816 {includes audio if you have good internet connection} Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end? Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625). |
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