Hi All,
I see hydraulic motors are rated in "inch ounces". I have no idea
what that means in the real world. Can someone give me an idea of how
powerful a 600 in.oz. motor is in terms I can relate to? By this I
mean could this amount of force be sufficient to power a mini bike?
Is it equal to the power of a 2 horsepower gasoline engine? I am not
after a physics lesson, rather a grass roots idea of what it is
capable of doing. I have a feel for foot pounds because I use torque
wrenches in automobile work. Is there a conversion that would give me
a feel for things? Thanks!

wrote:
Hi All,
I see hydraulic motors are rated in "inch ounces". I have no idea
what that means in the real world. Can someone give me an idea of how
powerful a 600 in.oz. motor is in terms I can relate to? By this I
mean could this amount of force be sufficient to power a mini bike?
Is it equal to the power of a 2 horsepower gasoline engine? I am not
after a physics lesson, rather a grass roots idea of what it is
capable of doing. I have a feel for foot pounds because I use torque
wrenches in automobile work. Is there a conversion that would give me
a feel for things? Thanks!

600 divided by 12 is 50 , divided by 16 is around 3.3 ft/lbs . A lot depends
on how many rpm's , and can it be geared down to a usable rpm/torque number
....
--
Snag
'90 Ultra "Strider"
'39 WLDD "Popcycle"
Buncha cars and a truck

wrote: (clip) I have a feel for foot pounds because I
use torque
wrenches in automobile work. Is there a conversion that would give me
a feel for things? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There are 16 oz. to the pound, and 12" to the foot, so 1 foot lb would equal
16 x 12 = 192 in oz. So a 600 in oz motor would deliver just over 3 ft lb
of torque. But that tells you nothing about the horsepower. To calculate
that, you would have to know the RPM. To develop 2 HP, the RPM would have
to be 3368. I don't think you can run a hydraulic motor that fast.

Are you really thinking about powering a minibike? Where are you planning
to get the power to drive the hydraulic pump that delivers pressure to the
hydraulic motor?

In order to understand this, you need to sort out the difference between
torque, force and power. But that would require a physics lesson.

And Power (hp) = Torque (ft-lb) * RPM / 5252
Art

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message news:z6VFk.44351

600 divided by 12 is 50 , divided by 16 is around 3.3 ft/lbs . A lot depends
on how many rpm's , and can it be geared down to a usable rpm/torque number

I am not
after a physics lesson, rather a grass roots idea of what it is
capable of doing.

You're asking about physics. so don't act like a physics "lesson" is not
the answer.

You have to go to public school if you want to learn "science" without
knowing any math or physics.

Women want to sit in a car, turn the key, and go. Men look under the hood
and want to know why it goes.

On Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:58:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

wrote:
Hi All,
I see hydraulic motors are rated in "inch ounces". I have no idea
what that means in the real world. Can someone give me an idea of how
powerful a 600 in.oz. motor is in terms I can relate to? By this I
mean could this amount of force be sufficient to power a mini bike?
Is it equal to the power of a 2 horsepower gasoline engine? I am not
after a physics lesson, rather a grass roots idea of what it is
capable of doing. I have a feel for foot pounds because I use torque
wrenches in automobile work. Is there a conversion that would give me
a feel for things? Thanks!

600 divided by 12 is 50 , divided by 16 is around 3.3 ft/lbs . A lot depends
on how many rpm's , and can it be geared down to a usable rpm/torque number
...

3.3 ft-lbf (600 in-ozf) at 1800 RPM would be 843 watts or 1.13 HP.
This torque would produce 2 HP at 3183 RPM.

wrote:

Hi All,
I see hydraulic motors are rated in "inch ounces". I have no idea
what that means in the real world. Can someone give me an idea of how
powerful a 600 in.oz. motor is in terms I can relate to? By this I
mean could this amount of force be sufficient to power a mini bike?
Is it equal to the power of a 2 horsepower gasoline engine? I am not
after a physics lesson, rather a grass roots idea of what it is
capable of doing. I have a feel for foot pounds because I use torque
wrenches in automobile work. Is there a conversion that would give me
a feel for things? Thanks!

Why would you want to introduce the losses of both a pump and hydraulic motor when the
chain is so much more efficent. Are you planning to use a pump that has a swash plate so
you can 'gear' down?

Wes

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
I am not
after a physics lesson, rather a grass roots idea of what it is
capable of doing.

You're asking about physics. so don't act like a physics "lesson" is not
the answer.

You have to go to public school if you want to learn "science" without
knowing any math or physics.

Women want to sit in a car, turn the key, and go. Men look under the hood
and want to know why it goes.

Amazingly, in 5 sentences you made 5 incorrect (and fairly obnoxious)
assertions.

Dats 100%!!!
Plus boucou extree credit for the obnoxiousness!

You musta gone to one helluva Catlick skool.

Go, Richard, Go!!!

--
DT

Great comment from Don Foreman on the power/speed continuum! Shows some of the interlinked phases
of physics. In another venue, Don could explain how gazillions of watts of power could be
transmitted on a wire the size of a hair, voltage and insulation permitting.

Bob Swinney



"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:58:44 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

wrote:
Hi All,
I see hydraulic motors are rated in "inch ounces". I have no idea
what that means in the real world. Can someone give me an idea of how
powerful a 600 in.oz. motor is in terms I can relate to? By this I
mean could this amount of force be sufficient to power a mini bike?
Is it equal to the power of a 2 horsepower gasoline engine? I am not
after a physics lesson, rather a grass roots idea of what it is
capable of doing. I have a feel for foot pounds because I use torque
wrenches in automobile work. Is there a conversion that would give me
a feel for things? Thanks!

600 divided by 12 is 50 , divided by 16 is around 3.3 ft/lbs . A lot depends
on how many rpm's , and can it be geared down to a usable rpm/torque number
...

3.3 ft-lbf (600 in-ozf) at 1800 RPM would be 843 watts or 1.13 HP.
This torque would produce 2 HP at 3183 RPM.

Robert Swinney wrote:
Great comment from Don Foreman on the power/speed continuum! Shows some of the interlinked phases
of physics. In another venue, Don could explain how gazillions of watts of power could be
transmitted on a wire the size of a hair, voltage and insulation permitting.

Bob Swinney

I can't tell if you're being snide or not.

At any rate, to transmit lots of power with an itty bitty wire you just
need to pull on it at less than it's breaking force, fast enough to so
that your (speed)(force) equation equals your desired gazillions of watts.

I really can't figure out what this "voltage" and "insulation" stuff is,
though :-).

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Oct 4, 9:51*pm, wrote:
Hi All,
I see hydraulic motors are rated in "inch ounces". *I have no idea
what that means in the real world. *Can someone give me an idea of how
powerful a 600 in.oz. motor is in terms I can relate to? *By this I
mean could this amount of force be sufficient to power a mini bike?
Is it equal to the power of a 2 horsepower gasoline engine? *I am not
after a physics lesson, rather a grass roots idea of what it is
capable of doing. *I have a feel for foot pounds because I use torque
wrenches in automobile work. *Is there a conversion that would give me
a feel for things? *Thanks!

Thanks everyone for your help, except Richard of course, who can go
---- himself. I wanted to make an electric mini bike to get the mail
and check on the critters. I saw a friend who made a new endplate for
a chevy starter motor and mounted a sproket on the the shaft, which he
then chained to the rear wheel. The battery was a normal lead acid
car battery and the rig was good for fifteen minutes or so before it
needed to be recharged, just about the time I need to do chores. I
wanted to use a motor controller, but they are afortune. Even buying
mosfets and making one up is expensive. I have hydraulic pumps that
could be driven by a starter motor and they are good for about 6 gal
per minute at 2000 psi. I checked and saw that hydraulic motors that
worked in this range were in the 600 - 1000 inch ounce range. That is
what brought about my question. Before some like Richard tells me
that the starter motor is not designed for constant usage, I realize
that but my friends mini bike shows it up to the task. Using a
hydraulic set up it would be possible to govern the speed of the mini
bike rather than just off and on the motor. And it could be done
cheaper than a $450.00 motor controler. Another idea was to but a
centrifugal clutch on an electric motor so that it would disengage
when the motor is turned off . Thanks for your thoughts and if any
more come up please post them!
Rick

wrote:
On Oct 4, 9:51 pm, wrote:
Hi All,
I see hydraulic motors are rated in "inch ounces". I have no idea
what that means in the real world. Can someone give me an idea of how
powerful a 600 in.oz. motor is in terms I can relate to? By this I
mean could this amount of force be sufficient to power a mini bike?
Is it equal to the power of a 2 horsepower gasoline engine? I am not
after a physics lesson, rather a grass roots idea of what it is
capable of doing. I have a feel for foot pounds because I use torque
wrenches in automobile work. Is there a conversion that would give me
a feel for things? Thanks!

Thanks everyone for your help, except Richard of course, who can go
---- himself. I wanted to make an electric mini bike to get the mail
and check on the critters. I saw a friend who made a new endplate for
a chevy starter motor and mounted a sproket on the the shaft, which he
then chained to the rear wheel. The battery was a normal lead acid
car battery and the rig was good for fifteen minutes or so before it
needed to be recharged, just about the time I need to do chores. I
wanted to use a motor controller, but they are afortune. Even buying
mosfets and making one up is expensive. I have hydraulic pumps that
could be driven by a starter motor and they are good for about 6 gal
per minute at 2000 psi. I checked and saw that hydraulic motors that
worked in this range were in the 600 - 1000 inch ounce range. That is
what brought about my question. Before some like Richard tells me
that the starter motor is not designed for constant usage, I realize
that but my friends mini bike shows it up to the task. Using a
hydraulic set up it would be possible to govern the speed of the mini
bike rather than just off and on the motor. And it could be done
cheaper than a $450.00 motor controler. Another idea was to but a
centrifugal clutch on an electric motor so that it would disengage
when the motor is turned off . Thanks for your thoughts and if any
more come up please post them!
Rick

Most DC permanent-magnet motors have fairly low torque when there is no
current flowing, so in an application like this you could just leave
them connected.

I would expect a starter motor would be the same. You'll have some
losses, but not that bad.

Just as speed * force = power, and rotary speed * torque = power, flow *
pressure = power. You could find the absolute maximum power to the
wheel fairly easily by finding the power in a 6GPM, 2000psi flow.

Dunno how efficient a hydraulic motor is, though -- I could see such a
device being valued far more for controllability than efficiency. But
at least you'd get that max number.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Tim sez: "I can't tell if you're being snide or not snip I really can't figure out what this
"voltage" and "insulation" stuff is,
though :-)."

Better it should have been said "electrical energy" rather than power. Power doesn't really happen
until something spins or heats up at the far end of the energy conduit, whatever that may be.
Technically it also should have been "gazillions of kilowatt-hours" All that being said, P =
Voltage ^2 / R Thus it is theoretically possible to transmit very large amounts of energy over a
very small conductor - think cryogenics and super high voltage. Hmmmnnnn, P = dt/de 'Nother way
of saying it.

Bob Swinney

Didn't you say you have exra hydraulic pumps lying around? I believe you
could use one of the pumps as a motor by pushing fluid through it.

On Oct 5, 8:37*pm, "Leo Lichtman" wrote:
Didn't you say you have exra hydraulic pumps lying around? *I believe you
could use one of the pumps as a motor by pushing fluid through it.

Hi Leo, That is a good question that I don't have and answer for. I
have noticed that most pumps, in the range I am thinking about, have
input shafts around 3/8". Motors of this capacity have output shafts
that are around 5/8" to 3/4". I am not sure why that is other than
perhaps they are designed for "radial load" rather than just a
twisting load. I don't think I said that well but I hope you get what
I am trying to say! Rick

On 2008-10-05, Robert Swinney wrote:
Tim sez: "I can't tell if you're being snide or not snip I really can't figure out what this
"voltage" and "insulation" stuff is,
though :-)."

Better it should have been said "electrical energy" rather than power. Power doesn't really happen
until something spins or heats up at the far end of the energy conduit, whatever that may be.
Technically it also should have been "gazillions of kilowatt-hours" All that being said, P =
Voltage ^2 / R Thus it is theoretically possible to transmit very large amounts of energy over a
very small conductor - think cryogenics and super high voltage. Hmmmnnnn, P = dt/de 'Nother way
of saying it.

Except that very small wire diameters don't get along well with
very high voltages -- most of your power goes away in corona spray. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...
Didn't you say you have exra hydraulic pumps lying around? I believe you
could use one of the pumps as a motor by pushing fluid through it.

Indeed. Google "hydraulic generators".
--
DT

On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 16:12:09 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:



Most DC permanent-magnet motors have fairly low torque when there is no
current flowing, so in an application like this you could just leave
them connected.

I would expect a starter motor would be the same. You'll have some
losses, but not that bad.

Just as speed * force = power, and rotary speed * torque = power, flow *
pressure = power. You could find the absolute maximum power to the
wheel fairly easily by finding the power in a 6GPM, 2000psi flow.

That's about 5220 watts or 7.0 HP.

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
Tim sez: "I can't tell if you're being snide or not snip I really
can't figure out what this
"voltage" and "insulation" stuff is,
though :-)."

Better it should have been said "electrical energy" rather than power.
Power doesn't really happen
until something spins or heats up at the far end of the energy conduit,
whatever that may be.
Technically it also should have been "gazillions of kilowatt-hours" All
that being said, P =
Voltage ^2 / R Thus it is theoretically possible to transmit very large
amounts of energy over a
very small conductor - think cryogenics and super high voltage.
Hmmmnnnn, P = dt/de 'Nother way
of saying it.

But not the correct way.

P = dE/dt. or dW/dt.

Also, your distinction between energy and power is not valid, in the above.

If "energy happens", then "power happens". If power happens, energy
happens. Always.

It's only that without specifying time, you can't specify *how much* of
each.
But one *always* implies the other.

--
DT




Bob Swinney

On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:08:42 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I wanted to make an electric mini bike to get the mail
and check on the critters. I saw a friend who made a new endplate for
a chevy starter motor and mounted a sproket on the the shaft, which he
then chained to the rear wheel. The battery was a normal lead acid
car battery and the rig was good for fifteen minutes or so before it
needed to be recharged, just about the time I need to do chores.

Car starter motors are intermittent duty non-ventilated, and way too
much power for the use - a controller of some sort is not optional.
And series-wound motors do strange things when you apply full voltage
unloaded, they tend to do nice things like spin up to destruction and
then go off like a grenade - don't ever have the chain break...

Regular car batteries do not take kindly to deep-cycling, and all
wet batteries (deep cycle included) do not like severe vibration.

Go get yourself a kid's electric scooter, they are mass produced and
rather cheap and come with a set of gel batteries. Bladez is a
premium maker, but there are hundreds of Taiwan Knockoffs that are a
lot less yet still suitable for the task.

-- Bruce --

Droll, et al,

I offered the thin-wire analogy to show there are physics counterparts to the HP/RPM/Torque thing.
My apolgies to all those over whose heads it went. Youall go on thinking you can belt-up any amount
of torque to move any amount of load at any desired speed.

Bob (doesn't suffer fools well) Swinney

On Oct 5, 9:09*am, "Robert Swinney" wrote:
.. *In another venue, Don could explain how gazillions of watts of
power could be
transmitted on a wire the size of a hair, voltage and insulation permitting.

Bob Swinney


One of my first jobs was on a system that transmitted about 2000 amps
through a wire that was .002 inch in diameter. Voltage was a bit over
2000 volts.

Dan

wrote: One of my first jobs was on a system that
transmitted about 2000 amps
through a wire that was .002 inch in diameter. Voltage was a bit over 2000
volts.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That can't be right. Do you mean 2000 watts? Even that sounds a bit edgy.

I agree but he didn't say how long the wire was carrying that current.
If the application was to spectrally analyze the content of the wire and
it was intended that it turn into a plasma .....
Art

"Leo Lichtman" wrote

That can't be right. Do you mean 2000 watts? Even that sounds a bit edgy.

On Oct 7, 11:03*pm, " wrote:

One of my first jobs was on a system that transmitted about 2000 amps
through a wire that was .002 inch *in diameter. Voltage was a bit over
2000 volts.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan

Making nanoparticles?

Artemus wrote:

I agree but he didn't say how long the wire was carrying that current.
If the application was to spectrally analyze the content of the wire and
it was intended that it turn into a plasma .....


I must have missed where he said it was a steady current flow instead
of a short pulse.


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On Oct 8, 4:43*pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Oct 7, 11:03*pm, " wrote:



One of my first jobs was on a system that transmitted about 2000 amps
through a wire that was .002 inch *in diameter. Voltage was a bit over
2000 volts.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan

Making nanoparticles?

Exploding bridgewire ordnance system for ICBM

" wrote:

On Oct 8, 4:43 pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Oct 7, 11:03 pm, " wrote:



One of my first jobs was on a system that transmitted about 2000 amps
through a wire that was .002 inch in diameter. Voltage was a bit over
2000 volts.

Dan

Making nanoparticles?

Exploding bridgewire ordnance system for ICBM


The 'Inter City Beer Missile'?


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The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

On Oct 10, 9:04*pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
" wrote:

On Oct 8, 4:43 pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Oct 7, 11:03 pm, " wrote:

One of my first jobs was on a system that transmitted about 2000 amps
through a wire that was .002 inch *in diameter. Voltage was a bit over
2000 volts.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan

Making nanoparticles?

Exploding bridgewire ordnance system for ICBM

* *The 'Inter City Beer Missile'?

Polaris A3

At what duty cycle.
That wire won't consider to carry 2000 amps unless it is a very low
duty cycle. And 4 e^6 watts !

Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


wrote:
On Oct 5, 9:09 am, "Robert Swinney" wrote:
. In another venue, Don could explain how gazillions of watts of
power could be
transmitted on a wire the size of a hair, voltage and insulation permitting.

Bob Swinney


One of my first jobs was on a system that transmitted about 2000 amps
through a wire that was .002 inch in diameter. Voltage was a bit over
2000 volts.

Dan


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" wrote:

On Oct 10, 9:04 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
" wrote:

On Oct 8, 4:43 pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Oct 7, 11:03 pm, " wrote:

One of my first jobs was on a system that transmitted about 2000 amps
through a wire that was .002 inch in diameter. Voltage was a bit over
2000 volts.

Dan

Making nanoparticles?

Exploding bridgewire ordnance system for ICBM

The 'Inter City Beer Missile'?

Polaris A3


The 'Inter City Beer Missile' was part of a silly beer commercial on
a Cicinnati TV station in the '70s.


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