I'm hoping to build a small pipe organ this summer, and as well as a
rank of wooden pipes, I would like to make a set of small metal ones.
The largest would be 2', going down to a few inches. The trouble is
that most organ builders cast their own mixture of lead and tin for
pipe building, which I don't belive is comercially available. Can
anyone suggest another sheet metal that is:

Easily worked
Solders well with an iron
Isn't too hard to get hold of
Isn't going to break the bank


Sorry if this is the wrong group; many thanks.

wrote:
I'm hoping to build a small pipe organ this summer, and as well as a
rank of wooden pipes, I would like to make a set of small metal ones.
The largest would be 2', going down to a few inches. The trouble is
that most organ builders cast their own mixture of lead and tin for
pipe building, which I don't belive is comercially available. Can
anyone suggest another sheet metal that is:

Easily worked
Solders well with an iron
Isn't too hard to get hold of
Isn't going to break the bank


Sorry if this is the wrong group; many thanks.

Have you seen this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rb8FMvbe20 . Looks
like it might be fairly easy to replicate. Christopher, in another
reply, mentioned higher levels of tin in better quality work so maybe
pewter (britania metal) might be an option, although I have never
tried to solder it with an iron only torch. It would also help if you
mentioned your location.

wrote:
I'm hoping to build a small pipe organ this summer, and as well as a
rank of wooden pipes, I would like to make a set of small metal ones.
The largest would be 2', going down to a few inches. The trouble is
that most organ builders cast their own mixture of lead and tin for
pipe building, which I don't belive is comercially available. Can
anyone suggest another sheet metal that is:

Easily worked
Solders well with an iron
Isn't too hard to get hold of
Isn't going to break the bank

The distinctive "spotty metal" is, as you correctly state, an alloy of
lead and tin. The exact composition varies, but 50% lead to 50% tin is
not uncommon. Historically, organ builders have chosen to use an alloy
with a greater proportion of tin for their best quality work.

You might be able to make your own sheets of metal using some kind of
lead-tin solder, but I suspect this wouldn't be straightforward. I would
suggest you contact some professional organ builders, explain your
project, and see if they can help you.

An explanation of the history of spotty metal is given in the book
"Engineering Properties and Applications of Lead Alloys" by Sivaraman
Guruswamy.

Best wishes,

Chris

Christopher Tidy wrote:
wrote:

I'm hoping to build a small pipe organ this summer, and as well as a
rank of wooden pipes, I would like to make a set of small metal ones.
The largest would be 2', going down to a few inches. The trouble is
that most organ builders cast their own mixture of lead and tin for
pipe building, which I don't belive is comercially available. Can
anyone suggest another sheet metal that is:

Easily worked
Solders well with an iron
Isn't too hard to get hold of
Isn't going to break the bank


The distinctive "spotty metal" is, as you correctly state, an alloy of
lead and tin. The exact composition varies, but 50% lead to 50% tin is
not uncommon. Historically, organ builders have chosen to use an alloy
with a greater proportion of tin for their best quality work.

You might be able to make your own sheets of metal using some kind of
lead-tin solder, but I suspect this wouldn't be straightforward. I would
suggest you contact some professional organ builders, explain your
project, and see if they can help you.

An explanation of the history of spotty metal is given in the book
"Engineering Properties and Applications of Lead Alloys" by Sivaraman
Guruswamy.

Best wishes,

Chris


Saw a documentary show on the tube a few years back, that showed the
process of building organ pipes, starting with the raw metal, melted and
poured into a spreader to make sheets. Interesting stuff!

Looked like there was lots of room for trial and error methodology to
be put to use. :-)

Cheers
Trevor Jones

How about asking some experts? http://organ.wicks.com/

wrote in message
...
I'm hoping to build a small pipe organ this summer, and as well as a
rank of wooden pipes, I would like to make a set of small metal ones.
The largest would be 2', going down to a few inches. The trouble is
that most organ builders cast their own mixture of lead and tin for
pipe building, which I don't belive is comercially available. Can
anyone suggest another sheet metal that is:

Easily worked
Solders well with an iron
Isn't too hard to get hold of
Isn't going to break the bank


Sorry if this is the wrong group; many thanks.

Christopher Tidy wrote:
David Billington wrote:

snip

Have you seen this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rb8FMvbe20 . Looks
like it might be fairly easy to replicate. Christopher, in another
reply, mentioned higher levels of tin in better quality work so
maybe pewter (britania metal) might be an option, although I have
never tried to solder it with an iron only torch. It would also help
if you mentioned your location.

That's an interesting video. To elaborate, this is what the book says
about alloy composition:

"In the last hundred years or more, lead-tin alloy pipes for organs
have been made with as high a composition as 85 wt% lead and 15 wt%
tin. However, the organ trade had the view that no alloy for organ
pipes contain less than 25 % tin, and in really good work no alloy
with less than 55 % tin should be employed."

Best wishes,

Chris

I wonder what the pewter I have would work like, it's 92-6-2, 92% tin,
6% antimony, 2% copper.

And the things you find on the internet
www.hevanet.com/dibblee/pipe_metallurgy.pdf

David Billington wrote:

snip

Have you seen this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rb8FMvbe20 . Looks
like it might be fairly easy to replicate. Christopher, in another
reply, mentioned higher levels of tin in better quality work so maybe
pewter (britania metal) might be an option, although I have never
tried to solder it with an iron only torch. It would also help if you
mentioned your location.

That's an interesting video. To elaborate, this is what the book says
about alloy composition:

"In the last hundred years or more, lead-tin alloy pipes for organs have
been made with as high a composition as 85 wt% lead and 15 wt% tin.
However, the organ trade had the view that no alloy for organ pipes
contain less than 25 % tin, and in really good work no alloy with less
than 55 % tin should be employed."

Best wishes,

Chris

I just googled "organ pipe metal" and got 1,000,000 hits. The first
half dozen talked about what you want.

Pete Stanaitis
-----------------------

wrote:
I'm hoping to build a small pipe organ this summer, and as well as a
rank of wooden pipes, I would like to make a set of small metal ones.
The largest would be 2', going down to a few inches. The trouble is
that most organ builders cast their own mixture of lead and tin for
pipe building, which I don't belive is comercially available. Can
anyone suggest another sheet metal that is:

Easily worked
Solders well with an iron
Isn't too hard to get hold of
Isn't going to break the bank


Sorry if this is the wrong group; many thanks.

If you can roll out a block into a sheet or a rod into a sheet -
buy bulk solder. Tin-lead by percentages.

It comes in sticks and ingots. A electronic supply house can set up an order.
Or perhaps direct.

Look at a solder company. Tin lead.
http://www.kester.com/en-us/products/index.aspx
Page 9 on the North American 2007 Recommended Electronics Assembly....

You will need a roller - and roll out a sheet as needed.
I'd take the bars and make smaller sheets.

It would be nice to have a chunk from an old one and have it analyzed
for the content % of material. Normally it is a simple and low cost test.
Inquire as to what is needed (match head likely) and price.

Martin


Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


wrote:
I'm hoping to build a small pipe organ this summer, and as well as a
rank of wooden pipes, I would like to make a set of small metal ones.
The largest would be 2', going down to a few inches. The trouble is
that most organ builders cast their own mixture of lead and tin for
pipe building, which I don't belive is comercially available. Can
anyone suggest another sheet metal that is:

Easily worked
Solders well with an iron
Isn't too hard to get hold of
Isn't going to break the bank


Sorry if this is the wrong group; many thanks.


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On May 10, 6:05*am, wrote:
I'm hoping to build a small pipe organ this summer, and as well as a
rank of wooden pipes, I would like to make a set of small metal ones.
The largest would be 2', going down to a few inches. *The trouble is
that most organ builders cast their own mixture of lead and tin for
pipe building, which I don't belive is comercially available. *Can
anyone suggest another sheet metal that is:

Easily worked
Solders well with an iron
Isn't too hard to get hold of
Isn't going to break the bank

Sorry if this is the wrong group; many thanks.

There's a multi-volume set on organ construction you might look up at
a larger library via interlibrary loan, apparently the proportions of
lead and tin have a fairly large effect on the sound of the pipes. The
higher the tin content, the better the sound, up to a point. Too high
a tin content and you get "tin disease" and the pipes will fall apart
with temperature change. I'm sure this alloy isn't available
commercially as sheet, it's relatively easy to make up, after all.
There are several books out there on past and present practice of pipe
construction, you need a stone table long as the longest pipe and
wider than the circumference of the widest one. A sliding trough is
used to cast the molten alloy as it's slid down the table. Different
thicknesses of sheet are used for the different pipe pitches. One
documentary on one of the cable channels showed constructors doing
this. Apparently wrought metal sounds different than cast. You could
use tin or brass sheet, but the sound would probably be more like a
whistle than an organ. For short stuff like you want, you could
probably knock together a sliding trough out of pine and use a
tombstone reject or maybe a cheap Chinese surface plate(almost the
same thing).

Stan

David Billington wrote:

I wonder what the pewter I have would work like, it's 92-6-2, 92% tin,
6% antimony, 2% copper.
I thinbk Pewter is too brittle to be rolled into tubes.

Jon

Jon Elson wrote:
David Billington wrote:

I wonder what the pewter I have would work like, it's 92-6-2, 92%
tin, 6% antimony, 2% copper.
I thinbk Pewter is too brittle to be rolled into tubes.

You haven't tried working the stuff then, I can spin a tankard from a
flat disc without any anneals. In high school people regularly formed it
into tubes and soldered the joints. I have never seen it act in a
brittle fashion.
Jon

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions - they've really helped.
I'll hope to finish the project in a few months and then put up a
webpage about it. Try googling Stuart William Murray in a few months!

On May 11, 1:35*am, wrote:
...
For short stuff like you want, you could
probably knock together a sliding trough out of pine and use a
tombstone reject or maybe a cheap Chinese surface plate(almost the
same thing).
Stan

I've heard that a canvas-lined wooden tray works, although it didn't
for me using battery lead. I didn't have enough 50:50 solder to fill
the sliding box.

Jim Wilkins

David Billington wrote:
Jon Elson wrote:

David Billington wrote:


I wonder what the pewter I have would work like, it's 92-6-2, 92%
tin, 6% antimony, 2% copper.

I thinbk Pewter is too brittle to be rolled into tubes.

You haven't tried working the stuff then, I can spin a tankard from a
flat disc without any anneals. In high school people regularly formed it
into tubes and soldered the joints. I have never seen it act in a
brittle fashion.
Then the stuff I thought was pewter must not have been.
Probably some cheap zinc imitation.

Yes, tin, antimoney and copper sounds like an alloy that should
be easily worked.

Jon

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
news
David Billington wrote:
Jon Elson wrote:

David Billington wrote:


I wonder what the pewter I have would work like, it's 92-6-2, 92% tin,
6% antimony, 2% copper.

I thinbk Pewter is too brittle to be rolled into tubes.

You haven't tried working the stuff then, I can spin a tankard from a
flat disc without any anneals. In high school people regularly formed it
into tubes and soldered the joints. I have never seen it act in a brittle
fashion.
Then the stuff I thought was pewter must not have been. Probably some
cheap zinc imitation.

Yes, tin, antimoney and copper sounds like an alloy that should be easily
worked.

Jon

Pewter alloys are wacky, in that they get softer and more malleable with
cold working.
Freshly cast they are fairly brittle and hard because the crystals are big
and chunky. As you work them the grain gets more refined and they work like
butter.

Paul K. Dickman

Paul K. Dickman wrote:
"Jon Elson" wrote in message
news
David Billington wrote:

Jon Elson wrote:


David Billington wrote:


I wonder what the pewter I have would work like, it's 92-6-2, 92% tin,
6% antimony, 2% copper.

I thinbk Pewter is too brittle to be rolled into tubes.


You haven't tried working the stuff then, I can spin a tankard from a
flat disc without any anneals. In high school people regularly formed it
into tubes and soldered the joints. I have never seen it act in a brittle
fashion.

Then the stuff I thought was pewter must not have been. Probably some
cheap zinc imitation.

Yes, tin, antimoney and copper sounds like an alloy that should be easily
worked.

Jon


Pewter alloys are wacky, in that they get softer and more malleable with
cold working.
Freshly cast they are fairly brittle and hard because the crystals are big
and chunky. As you work them the grain gets more refined and they work like
butter.

Paul K. Dickman



Interesting you should say that as the the guy that supplied with the pewter sheet mentioned it work softening in his experience but he makes sheet and other products from cast ingots IIRC. My main experience with pewter (Britannia metal) is with rolled sheet upto 2mm thick although I do some casting and having just bent a cast handle with about 10mm thickness quite significantly without breakage, possibly that is a small section and the grain size is still small due to rapid cooling.

"David Billington" wrote in message
...
Paul K. Dickman wrote:
"Jon Elson" wrote in message
news
Pewter alloys are wacky, in that they get softer and more malleable with
cold working.
Freshly cast they are fairly brittle and hard because the crystals are
big and chunky. As you work them the grain gets more refined and they
work like butter.

Paul K. Dickman


Interesting you should say that as the the guy that supplied with the
pewter sheet mentioned it work softening in his experience but he makes
sheet and other products from cast ingots IIRC. My main experience with
pewter (Britannia metal) is with rolled sheet upto 2mm thick although I do
some casting and having just bent a cast handle with about 10mm thickness
quite significantly without breakage, possibly that is a small section and
the grain size is still small due to rapid cooling.
It's not like cast iron.
It is still malleable as cast, otherwise we would not be able to roll out
sheet.

I'll bet you heard it sing when you bent it.

Paul K. Dickman

Paul K. Dickman wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
...

Paul K. Dickman wrote:

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
news
Pewter alloys are wacky, in that they get softer and more malleable with
cold working.
Freshly cast they are fairly brittle and hard because the crystals are
big and chunky. As you work them the grain gets more refined and they
work like butter.

Paul K. Dickman



Interesting you should say that as the the guy that supplied with the
pewter sheet mentioned it work softening in his experience but he makes
sheet and other products from cast ingots IIRC. My main experience with
pewter (Britannia metal) is with rolled sheet upto 2mm thick although I do
some casting and having just bent a cast handle with about 10mm thickness
quite significantly without breakage, possibly that is a small section and
the grain size is still small due to rapid cooling.

It's not like cast iron.
It is still malleable as cast, otherwise we would not be able to roll out
sheet.

I'll bet you heard it sing when you bent it.

Paul K. Dickman



Not sing but I did feel little clicks.

"David Billington" wrote in message
...
Paul K. Dickman wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
...

Paul K. Dickman wrote:

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
news
Pewter alloys are wacky, in that they get softer and more malleable
with cold working.
Freshly cast they are fairly brittle and hard because the crystals are
big and chunky. As you work them the grain gets more refined and they
work like butter.

Paul K. Dickman



Interesting you should say that as the the guy that supplied with the
pewter sheet mentioned it work softening in his experience but he makes
sheet and other products from cast ingots IIRC. My main experience with
pewter (Britannia metal) is with rolled sheet upto 2mm thick although I
do some casting and having just bent a cast handle with about 10mm
thickness quite significantly without breakage, possibly that is a small
section and the grain size is still small due to rapid cooling.

It's not like cast iron.
It is still malleable as cast, otherwise we would not be able to roll out
sheet.

I'll bet you heard it sing when you bent it.

Paul K. Dickman


Not sing but I did feel little clicks.

That's it.

Paul K. Dickman

In article ,
wrote:
I'm hoping to build a small pipe organ this summer, and as well as a
rank of wooden pipes, I would like to make a set of small metal ones.
The largest would be 2', going down to a few inches. The trouble is
that most organ builders cast their own mixture of lead and tin for
pipe building, which I don't belive is comercially available.

Contact Organ Supply Industries and get their catalog (or download the PDF).
They'll sell to serious enthusiasts and stock just about everything you
would need to build an organ:

http://www.organsupply.com

If they don't have it then the next choice is Laukhuff in Germany.

http://www.laukhuff.de

Hope this helps!

---john.