I've seen "fireproof" gunsafes at sporting goods stores that seem to only
have drywall lining the walls. Wouldn't a layer of Kaowool in place of the
drywall do a much better job? It keeps the heat IN the forge pretty well.

I realize this would impact the cost a lot; just thinking out loud. What do
y'all think?
--
John L. Weatherly

please remove XXXs to reply via email

"John L. Weatherly" fired this volley
in :

I've seen "fireproof" gunsafes at sporting goods stores that seem to
only have drywall lining the walls. Wouldn't a layer of Kaowool in
place of the drywall do a much better job? It keeps the heat IN the
forge pretty well.

I realize this would impact the cost a lot; just thinking out loud.
What do y'all think?

Prob'ly would, but it is pretty much standard practice to line
"fireproof" stuff with low-strength, highly aerated gypsum; the thicker,
the better.

Most (even inexpensive) home-quality firesafes still have over a full
inch of gypsum between the walls. A one hour fire rating isn't all that
hard to achieve.

Kaowool would be overkill in terms of cost -- how about boiler liner
sheets, instead? They're better insulators than gypsum, and just about
dirt cheap.

LLoyd

"John L. Weatherly" wrote in message
.. .
I've seen "fireproof" gunsafes at sporting goods stores that seem to only
have drywall lining the walls. Wouldn't a layer of Kaowool in place of
the
drywall do a much better job? It keeps the heat IN the forge pretty well.

I realize this would impact the cost a lot; just thinking out loud. What
do
y'all think?

I am a locksmith, and the insulation in fire safes is designed to hold
moisture until heated and then it releases it into the interior compartment
of the box. I had a customer that stored his ammo in a fire file in his
garage.

While he was on a camping trip, the car in his garage had developed a leak
in the gas tank and when the fumes built up to the pilot for the water
heater BOOM!! The garage door was blown across the street and over the
neighbors roof ending up in their pool in the back yard.

His Snap On tools had annealed from the intense heat, but when he opened the
file after the fire, the plastic boxes were not melted in the slightest.

Fires get very hot, the Kaowool type insulation does not serve well in that
kind of heat for the length of time needed.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

On Jan 11, 4:27 pm, "John L. Weatherly"
wrote:
I've seen "fireproof" gunsafes at sporting goods stores that seem to only
have drywall lining the walls. Wouldn't a layer of Kaowool in place of the
drywall do a much better job? It keeps the heat IN the forge pretty well.

I realize this would impact the cost a lot; just thinking out loud. What do
y'all think?
--
John L. Weatherly

please remove XXXs to reply via email

The reason they use " drywall " is that it has a lot of water in it
bound in the material. On prolonged heating the water is driven out
and the " drywall " turns to powder. This takes a bunch of btu's to
do this. So while Kaowool would keep the heat from getting in, it
would not do as good a job at keeping the contents cool.


Dan

On 2008-01-11, Roger Shoaf wrote:
I had a customer that stored his ammo in a fire file in his
garage.

While he was on a camping trip, the car in his garage had developed a leak
in the gas tank and when the fumes built up to the pilot for the water
heater BOOM!! The garage door was blown across the street and over the
neighbors roof ending up in their pool in the back yard.

Did this customer, per chance, fix his punctured tank with a wooden
plug, prior to the accident?

i

On 11 Jan, 16:27, "John L. Weatherly"
wrote:
I've seen "fireproof" gunsafes at sporting goods stores that seem to only
have drywall lining the walls. Wouldn't a layer of Kaowool in place of the
drywall do a much better job?

No, Kaowool is an insulator, but only an insulator. The lining in a
firesafe contains a significant quantity of water too, bound up as
hydrated lime compounds in this "drywall". When you burn the safe,
this water is released and boiling it off absorbs heat energy.
Overall, this keeps the contents cooler than Kaowool alone would.

Obviously this is a transitory condition. It only works for as long as
there's water to release. This is why firesafes with thick or thin
walls are rated for diifferent _durations_ of fire, not necessarily
temperatures.

It's also a little more sophisticated than plain drywall, although
drywall is itself quite a good fire barrier in house construction. The
chemistry of firesafes like this goes back to the early Victorian
period - there are safe sites on the web that describe the inventors
and their patents in detail.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 11 Jan, 16:27, "John L. Weatherly"
wrote:
I've seen "fireproof" gunsafes at sporting goods stores that seem to only
have drywall lining the walls. Wouldn't a layer of Kaowool in place of
the
drywall do a much better job?

No, Kaowool is an insulator, but only an insulator. The lining in a
firesafe contains a significant quantity of water too, bound up as
hydrated lime compounds in this "drywall".

So the material they line the safes with is lime, rather than gypsum?

--
Ed Huntress

"John L. Weatherly" wrote:

I've seen "fireproof" gunsafes at sporting goods stores that seem to only
have drywall lining the walls. Wouldn't a layer of Kaowool in place of the
drywall do a much better job? It keeps the heat IN the forge pretty well.


Nothing is fireproof. As you may have noticed, you can improve your home
security container by lining it with dry wall on the outside.

Wes

"Ed Huntress" wrote:


So the material they line the safes with is lime, rather than gypsum?

I'm sure hoping not. Gypsum CaSO4·2H2O Lime CaO

In article , Ignoramus10310 wrote:
On 2008-01-11, Roger Shoaf wrote:
I had a customer that stored his ammo in a fire file in his
garage.

While he was on a camping trip, the car in his garage had developed a leak
in the gas tank and when the fumes built up to the pilot for the water
heater BOOM!! The garage door was blown across the street and over the
neighbors roof ending up in their pool in the back yard.

Did this customer, per chance, fix his punctured tank with a wooden
plug, prior to the accident?

ROTFLMAO

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:


So the material they line the safes with is lime, rather than gypsum?

I'm sure hoping not. Gypsum CaSO4·2H2O Lime CaO

I'll bet you know I was shorthanding for hydrated lime, or calcium
hydroxide, Ca(OH2). g

Hydrated lime is what plaster walls were once made of (as in the walls in my
house). Drywall is semi-hydrous calcium sulphate, or gypsum. Either one will
ablate, or give of combined water, when it's heated. I was just curious
about whether the actual stuff used to line safes was the same gypsum board
used for walls, or something special made from hydrated lime.

--
Ed Huntress

On 11 Jan, 19:45, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

No, Kaowool is an insulator, but only an insulator. The lining in a
firesafe contains a significant quantity of water too, bound up as
hydrated lime compounds in this "drywall".

So the material they line the safes with is lime, rather than gypsum?

Milner's original fireproof patent was for about 4" of sawdust, kept
wet!

"Lime" in en_GB speak is generally hydrated lime, not CaO. That's
termed "quicklime". It's crucial to the fireproofing that this would
be "slaked" lime (i.e. hydrated), not quicklime.

The stuff used is safes has varied. As was typical for Victorian
innovations, much of the "innovation" was driven by trying to dodge
around other peoples' patents, so much as choosing materials for their
own sake. Both lime (carbonate) and gypsum (sulphate) compounds have
been used, also alum (aluminium / potassium sulphate, rather than
calcium sulphate).

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 11 Jan, 19:45, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

No, Kaowool is an insulator, but only an insulator. The lining in a
firesafe contains a significant quantity of water too, bound up as
hydrated lime compounds in this "drywall".

So the material they line the safes with is lime, rather than gypsum?

Milner's original fireproof patent was for about 4" of sawdust, kept
wet!

"Lime" in en_GB speak is generally hydrated lime, not CaO. That's
termed "quicklime". It's crucial to the fireproofing that this would
be "slaked" lime (i.e. hydrated), not quicklime.

The stuff used is safes has varied. As was typical for Victorian
innovations, much of the "innovation" was driven by trying to dodge
around other peoples' patents, so much as choosing materials for their
own sake. Both lime (carbonate) and gypsum (sulphate) compounds have
been used, also alum (aluminium / potassium sulphate, rather than
calcium sulphate).

Thanks, Andy. There's *another* topic for cocktail party conversations I've
learned from this group. You should see how I get them going by talking
about wiring for three-phase motors!

--
Ed Huntress

In article , "Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:


So the material they line the safes with is lime, rather than gypsum?

I'm sure hoping not. Gypsum CaSO4·2H2O Lime CaO

I'll bet you know I was shorthanding for hydrated lime, or calcium
hydroxide, Ca(OH2). g

I'll bet you mean Ca(OH)2. g

Hydrated lime is what plaster walls were once made of (as in the walls in my
house).

Hydrated lime is *part of* what plaster walls *are still* made of, among other
constituents including sand, portland cement, perlite or vermiculite, and (in
bygone days) often horsehair.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:


So the material they line the safes with is lime, rather than gypsum?

I'm sure hoping not. Gypsum CaSO4·2H2O Lime CaO

I'll bet you know I was shorthanding for hydrated lime, or calcium
hydroxide, Ca(OH2). g

I'll bet you mean Ca(OH)2. g

Hydrated lime is what plaster walls were once made of (as in the walls in
my
house).

Hydrated lime is *part of* what plaster walls *are still* made of, among
other
constituents including sand, portland cement, perlite or vermiculite, and
(in
bygone days) often horsehair.

OK, somebody was bound to get technical. g My walls are a three-layer job:
scratch coat over wood lath, with horsehair; brown coat; and finish coat.
Almost all of the original is still there, although I've done some patching.
I no longer finish with slaked lime, however, when I have to fix something.
It takes too long to cure.

--
Ed Huntress

"Wes" wrote in message
...
Nothing is fireproof. As you may have noticed, you can improve your home
security container by lining it with dry wall on the outside.

Yep, that would work. Construction adhesive is your friend. Actually, I
used a combination of brick and patio stones on the outside if mine, and then
covered the ooutside in ceramic floor tile. My goals (both equally important)
were to improve the fire resistance of the safe, while at the same time
rendering it immobile.

Vaughn

Nothing is fireproof. As you may have noticed, you can improve your home
security container by lining it with dry wall on the outside.


That is an intresting concept. " lining on the outside " .
Havent seen that done yet. :-) All the linings I've ever seen or
heard of have been on the inside. Oh well another (you know what I mean)
...lew...

On 12 Jan, 15:29, Lew Hartswick wrote:
Nothing is fireproof. As you may have noticed, you can improve your home
security container by lining it with dry wall on the outside.

That is an intresting concept. " lining on the outside " .
Havent seen that done yet. :-)


Standard practice in the UK. Not on the "outside outside", but if you
have a garage space that's inside the outside walls of a house, you
need a couple of layers of drywall (aka plasterboard) fastened up on
the _fire_ side of the structure. And that's for our style of house
construction with real bricks too, not US ticky-tacky boxes!

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 12 Jan, 15:29, Lew Hartswick wrote:
Nothing is fireproof. As you may have noticed, you can improve your
home
security container by lining it with dry wall on the outside.

That is an intresting concept. " lining on the outside " .
Havent seen that done yet. :-)


Standard practice in the UK. Not on the "outside outside", but if you
have a garage space that's inside the outside walls of a house, you
need a couple of layers of drywall (aka plasterboard) fastened up on
the _fire_ side of the structure. And that's for our style of house
construction with real bricks too, not US ticky-tacky boxes!

If your houses are built with real bricks, why do you need fire protection?
Do you make your bricks out of wood chips?

--
Ed Huntress

John L. Weatherly wrote:
I've seen "fireproof" gunsafes at sporting goods stores that seem to only
have drywall lining the walls. Wouldn't a layer of Kaowool in place of the
drywall do a much better job? It keeps the heat IN the forge pretty well.

I realize this would impact the cost a lot; just thinking out loud. What do
y'all think?

Having read most of the posts on this thread it reminded me of looking
into fire safes for protection of data stored on computer storage media.
This brought up the difference between a fire safe intended for the
protection of paper or other items which could stand upto temps of
150C or more without damage, a machinist I knew stored all his gear
cutters in a large old firesafe, and a data safe intended for the
storage of digital media that might be damaged at temps much above 40C.
Does anyone have any idea of the mechanism used to keep the internals of
a data safe at a safe low temp compared to the mechanisms used in a fire
safe which seem to be using the heat taken by removing the water of
hydration from gypsum and the like.

A company I worked for in the past might be in for a shock if the had a
fire as they had the server hard drive in a cheap firesafe on the end
of the ribbon cable, might not have fared well but luckily I don't think
it has been tested.

On 12 Jan, 18:48, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

Standard practice in the UK. Not on the "outside outside", but if you
have a garage space that's inside the outside walls of a house, you
need a couple of layers of drywall (aka plasterboard) fastened up on
the _fire_ side of the structure. And that's for our style of house
construction with real bricks too, not US ticky-tacky boxes!

If your houses are built with real bricks, why do you need fire protection?

Floors and ceilings mostly. Although we build walls in masonry, we
tend to use suspended wooden floors rather than poured concrete slabs.
This is one reason why we popularly DIY install floorsafes, not wall
safes (other way round to the USA). Also drywall cladding is needed
for any penetration of the bricks, including around plumbing.

So when your adjacent garage / workshop roof leaks, there's a few
inches of rockwool to soak up the insulation, then a few layers of
plasterboard. By the time you even notice, it's a right old nasty mess
up there. Guess what tomorrow's job is? 8-(

If you have a _major_ fire in a UK house, it's almost always because
the fire has got into a roof or ceiling void and then spread that way.
Room fires are generally survivable (if you're elsewhere and leave),
multi-room fires are the ones that kill families (we've had a bunch
of them lately).

basic concept is to make a thermal impedance mismatch as severe as
possible - multiple layers of insulator and reflector - the metal safe is a
reflector - so insulator on the outside, then another reflector layer will
make it a better insulator
"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
...


Nothing is fireproof. As you may have noticed, you can improve your home
security container by lining it with dry wall on the outside.


That is an intresting concept. " lining on the outside " .
Havent seen that done yet. :-) All the linings I've ever seen or
heard of have been on the inside. Oh well another (you know what I mean)
...lew...



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Yep ranks right behind the subject of "2 phase motors".



Thanks, Andy. There's *another* topic for cocktail party conversations I've
learned from this group. You should see how I get them going by talking
about wiring for three-phase motors!

--
Ed Huntress

"RoyJ" wrote in message
...
Yep ranks right behind the subject of "2 phase motors".

I've already worked that one to death. They see me coming when I have a
stack of phase diagrams in my hand.

--
Ed Huntress




Thanks, Andy. There's *another* topic for cocktail party conversations
I've learned from this group. You should see how I get them going by
talking about wiring for three-phase motors!

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

"RoyJ" wrote in message
...
Yep ranks right behind the subject of "2 phase motors".

I've already worked that one to death. They see me coming when I have a
stack of phase diagrams in my hand.


It wouldn't 'Phase' me! ;-)


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

"RoyJ" wrote in message
...
Yep ranks right behind the subject of "2 phase motors".

I've already worked that one to death. They see me coming when I have a
stack of phase diagrams in my hand.


It wouldn't 'Phase' me! ;-)

Two demerits for that one.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

"RoyJ" wrote in message
...
Yep ranks right behind the subject of "2 phase motors".

I've already worked that one to death. They see me coming when I have a
stack of phase diagrams in my hand.


It wouldn't 'Phase' me! ;-)

Two demerits for that one.


No thanks, I've already got thousands of them! ;-)

I got most of the demerits for clearing out the entire engineer
department at Microdyne, simply by marching in with a blank sheet of
copier paper, and a very ****ed look on my face. They 'Phased out' very
quickly! ;-)


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:37:24 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

"RoyJ" wrote in message
...
Yep ranks right behind the subject of "2 phase motors".

I've already worked that one to death. They see me coming when I have a
stack of phase diagrams in my hand.


It wouldn't 'Phase' me! ;-)

Two demerits for that one.

Sounds duplicitous.

-----------------------------------------------
Never attempt to traverse a chasm in two leaps.
===============================================

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:37:24 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

"RoyJ" wrote in message
...
Yep ranks right behind the subject of "2 phase motors".

I've already worked that one to death. They see me coming when I have a
stack of phase diagrams in my hand.


It wouldn't 'Phase' me! ;-)

Two demerits for that one.

Sounds duplicitous.

Right. The Chinese make them. They're known as Yin/Yang motors.

--
Ed Huntress

Thanks for all of the enthusiastic replies. I never would have thought of
drywall on the outside. Cheaper and easier than re-lining for sure.

--
John L. Weatherly

please remove XXXs to reply via email

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 08:12:19 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
"John L. Weatherly" quickly quoth:

Thanks for all of the enthusiastic replies. I never would have thought of
drywall on the outside. Cheaper and easier than re-lining for sure.

There is a newer style of drywall which is more impervious to fire,
fungus, mold, termite, and water damage. http://www.mag-board.com/
I've never seen any locally.

When my CA home was infested with termites, they ate the wallpaper and
paper covering on the drywall, leaving exposed gypsum. I couldn't
believe it. This stuff should be safe from that.

---
Chaos, panic, and disorder--my work here is done.

On Jan 16, 10:35 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
The drywall / gypsum contains water, chemically combined in. In case of
fire, it releases the water, helping hold the temperature down.

Fire resistant safes just buy some time for the FD to get there and put out
the fire.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"John L. Weatherly" wrote in messagenews:FqSdnW8YSO2hBBranZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@cavte l.net...
I've seen "fireproof" gunsafes at sporting goods stores that seem to only
have drywall lining the walls. Wouldn't a layer of Kaowool in place of the
drywall do a much better job? It keeps the heat IN the forge pretty well.

I realize this would impact the cost a lot; just thinking out loud. What do
y'all think?
--
John L. Weatherly

please remove XXXs to reply via email

My theory in the firesafe is to put it in a place where the house
collapses on it and chokes itself of air to burn

IF the unthinkable happens me and my sawzall know which corner of the
house to work through to get the truly critical documents and we will
expect it to be buried under mainly inflammable debris so its almost
surrounded by tile and drywall and the house could collapse on it and
not throw burnable materials onto it

Stormin Mormon wrote:

The drywall / gypsum contains water, chemically combined in. In case of
fire, it releases the water, helping hold the temperature down.

Fire resistant safes just buy some time for the FD to get there and put
out the fire.


Will the moisture contained in the drywall change the humidity in the safe?
I don't like rusty firearms...
--
John L. Weatherly

please remove XXXs to reply via email

"John L. Weatherly" wrote in message
.. .
Will the moisture contained in the drywall change the humidity in the safe?
I don't like rusty firearms...

Yes. Mine came with some kind of a special cloth that you are supposed to
keep in there that is supposed to somehow help the problem. My papers always
smell musty when I take them out of the safe. Perhaps they make gun safes
differently?

Vaughn

On Jan 11, 11:30*am, Ignoramus10310 ignoramus10...@NOSPAM.
10310.invalid wrote:
On 2008-01-11, Roger Shoaf wrote:

I had a customer that stored his ammo in a fire file in his
garage.

While he was on a camping trip, the car in his garage had developed a leak
in the gas tank and when the fumes built up to the pilot for the water
heater BOOM!! *The garage door was blown across the street and over the
neighbors roof *ending up in their pool in the back yard.

Did this customer, per chance, fix his punctured tank with a wooden
plug, prior to the accident?

i

It wouldn't be Gunner....he is like the rest of us...the garage would
be FULL of tools...no room for the car.

TMT