Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications? Grab
that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...

Louis Ohland wrote:
Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications? Grab that
1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...

What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of finish do
you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a color case
hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or bushing
the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model 1885 with
different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?

Trevor Jones wrote:
Louis Ohland wrote:
Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications? Grab
that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...

What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of finish do
you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a color case
hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Louis Ohland wrote:

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or bushing
the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model 1885 with
different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?



4140 is a great steel to choose, as long as you are not hoping to
color case it.

The last stevens breechblock I bought only cost me $15 from a used
parts dealer, so I would not bother, but if it turns yer crank to make
it, why not!
Some guys have written a fair bit about using the 4140 pre-hard for
parts as well. A little harder to machine, but not overly so.
There is a lot of really good info over on the homegunsmithing.com
site. Well worth the reading.

The old large diameter firing pins are supposed to be quite safe at
the pressures that a BP cartridge should be run at, if my sources are to
be trusted. Most of the parts on an 1885 were pretty low zoot steel,
case hardened at first, then just blued, in later production.

Take a look at the "project" pages. There are some really nice scratch
built's there.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Louis Ohland wrote:

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or bushing
the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model 1885 with
different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?

Trevor Jones wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications? Grab
that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...


What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of finish do
you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a color case
hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Louis
Could you clarify those Winchester models, please?

Tom

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 22:19:40 -0600, Louis Ohland
wrote:

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or bushing
the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model 1885 with
different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?

Yes.

Gunner


Trevor Jones wrote:
Louis Ohland wrote:
Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications? Grab
that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...

What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of finish do
you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a color case
hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Tom wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or
bushing the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model 1885
with different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?

Trevor Jones wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications? Grab
that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...



What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of finish do
you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a color
case hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Louis
Could you clarify those Winchester models, please?

Tom

Model 87 Winchester was a Military type trainer based on the 1885
actions.

Most that I see referenced in the books, were .22 cal.

I have the 2 Campbell books on the 1885 single shots. The general gist
is that just about anything you wanted, could be got from the factory,
if you were willing to pay. But it's been a long time.

"Factory" letters are available for the Winchester rifles, from the
Cody Museum, if ya didn't know.

A rebarell?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:0PZej.43885$UZ4.26641@edtnps89...
Louis Ohland wrote:
There is a lot of really good info over on the homegunsmithing.com
site. Well worth the reading.

Doesn't work. Did a search and nothing showed up.

B

Bernie wrote:

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:0PZej.43885$UZ4.26641@edtnps89...

Louis Ohland wrote:
There is a lot of really good info over on the homegunsmithing.com
site. Well worth the reading.


Doesn't work. Did a search and nothing showed up.

B


DoH! homegunsmith.com

It is the forums section attached to the Roderus Custom Gun site.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

As has been surmised, the 1885 "High Wall" and the related "Low Wall"
formed the basis for the 1887 Musket, which was a training rifle. The
particular gun is a coil spring model.

The 1887 in this case was rebarreled to a .22 Hornet. Unfortunately. the
firing pin is the blackpowder diameter (like .120 IIRC) and it really
craters the primer. The firing pin does not penetrate the primer, but it
raises a rim around the circumference of the pin strike.

My Dad wants to remove the large pin, drill the body, and insert a .074
diameter pin, which is the correct size. The breechblock needs to have a
bushing installed, so it will have a smaller hole for the pin...

Trevor Jones wrote:
Model 87 Winchester was a Military type trainer based on the 1885 actions.
Most that I see referenced in the books, were .22 cal.
A rebarell?

I just registered. Let's see.

Trevor Jones wrote:
Bernie wrote:

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:0PZej.43885$UZ4.26641@edtnps89...

Louis Ohland wrote:
There is a lot of really good info over on the homegunsmithing.com
site. Well worth the reading.


Doesn't work. Did a search and nothing showed up.

B

DoH! homegunsmith.com

It is the forums section attached to the Roderus Custom Gun site.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 22:08:22 -0600, Louis Ohland
wrote:

Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications? Grab
that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...
==================
Consider what steels were available and used for the original
parts.

Most of the steels we now have available are far better and more
consistent than the originals with the [possible] exceptions of
re-bar and hardware store MS [merchant stock not mild steel] rods
and bars.

IIRC American Rifleman had an article on old gun steels some
years ago and concluded most of them were low carbon steel,
although some had extensive case hardening for wear resistance.

Still, given the amount of time you will invest in an action, why
not use the best? The cost of material will be only a small part
of what you have invested when you include your time.

4140/4150 and possibly "stress-proof" [1144 & possibly 11L44]
pre-hardened would be good choices.
for some examples click on
http://southerntool.thomasnet.com/it...=prod&filter=0
http://m-vincent.com/stainless.html?...FQolHgodWy2UPA
http://www.speedymetals.com/c-8239-cold-finished.aspx


tooling info
http://www.kennametal.com/images/pdf...OCFEVMCQFB0IV0


Avoid heat treatment that results in brittleness, i.e. glass hard
through. Some of the old Springfield receivers had this problem
when nickel steel was new. If you have a problem you want things
to "give" not "shatter"

Odd, I can see more forums if I'm NOT logged in.

Louis Ohland wrote:
I just registered. Let's see.

Trevor Jones wrote:
Bernie wrote:

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:0PZej.43885$UZ4.26641@edtnps89...

Louis Ohland wrote:
There is a lot of really good info over on the homegunsmithing.com
site. Well worth the reading.


Doesn't work. Did a search and nothing showed up.

B

DoH! homegunsmith.com

It is the forums section attached to the Roderus Custom Gun site.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Trevor Jones wrote:
Tom wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or
bushing the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model 1885
with different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?

Trevor Jones wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications? Grab
that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...




What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of finish
do you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many
variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a color
case hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Louis
Could you clarify those Winchester models, please?

Tom


Model 87 Winchester was a Military type trainer based on the 1885 actions.

Most that I see referenced in the books, were .22 cal.

I have the 2 Campbell books on the 1885 single shots. The general gist
is that just about anything you wanted, could be got from the factory,
if you were willing to pay. But it's been a long time.

"Factory" letters are available for the Winchester rifles, from the
Cody Museum, if ya didn't know.

A rebarell?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Well, Trevor I've got more than a few Winchesters and all of my Model 1887s
are lever action shotguns and my muskets are either 1885 or 1895.

Tom

Louis Ohland wrote:

As has been surmised, the 1885 "High Wall" and the related "Low Wall"
formed the basis for the 1887 Musket, which was a training rifle. The
particular gun is a coil spring model.

The 1887 in this case was rebarreled to a .22 Hornet. Unfortunately. the
firing pin is the blackpowder diameter (like .120 IIRC) and it really
craters the primer. The firing pin does not penetrate the primer, but it
raises a rim around the circumference of the pin strike.

My Dad wants to remove the large pin, drill the body, and insert a .074
diameter pin, which is the correct size. The breechblock needs to have a
bushing installed, so it will have a smaller hole for the pin...

Trevor Jones wrote:

Model 87 Winchester was a Military type trainer based on the 1885
actions.
Most that I see referenced in the books, were .22 cal.
A rebarell?


I don't think so, Louis.
Winchester Model 1887 was a lever action shotgun of which I have several.

Tom

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Wincheste...les.htm#WINDER

Tom wrote:
Trevor Jones wrote:
Tom wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or
bushing the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model
1885 with different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?

Trevor Jones wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications?
Grab that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...




What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of finish
do you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many
variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a color
case hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Louis
Could you clarify those Winchester models, please?

Tom


Model 87 Winchester was a Military type trainer based on the 1885
actions.

Most that I see referenced in the books, were .22 cal.

I have the 2 Campbell books on the 1885 single shots. The general
gist is that just about anything you wanted, could be got from the
factory, if you were willing to pay. But it's been a long time.

"Factory" letters are available for the Winchester rifles, from the
Cody Museum, if ya didn't know.

A rebarell?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Well, Trevor I've got more than a few Winchesters and all of my Model 1887s
are lever action shotguns and my muskets are either 1885 or 1895.

Tom

Louis Ohland wrote:

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Wincheste...les.htm#WINDER

Tom wrote:

Trevor Jones wrote:

Tom wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or
bushing the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model
1885 with different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?

Trevor Jones wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications?
Grab that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...





What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of finish
do you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many
variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a color
case hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Louis
Could you clarify those Winchester models, please?

Tom



Model 87 Winchester was a Military type trainer based on the 1885
actions.

Most that I see referenced in the books, were .22 cal.

I have the 2 Campbell books on the 1885 single shots. The general
gist is that just about anything you wanted, could be got from the
factory, if you were willing to pay. But it's been a long time.

"Factory" letters are available for the Winchester rifles, from the
Cody Museum, if ya didn't know.

A rebarell?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Well, Trevor I've got more than a few Winchesters and all of my Model
1887s
are lever action shotguns and my muskets are either 1885 or 1895.

Tom

LOL, My goodness, Louis, you had to go offshore to a country, where
basically, guns are outlawed, to get someone to back your dopey assertion.
How about a quote from someone reputable?
How about a quote from Watrous or Madis?

I've got to go shift a machine, I'll be looking forward to your response. :-)

Tom

Gee, Tom, I don't see you as a contributor to "The Winchester
Single-Shot - A History and Analysis" by John Campbell. Page 149-164.
ISBN: 0-917218-68-X

If you want to get wound up over model names, what's it to ya? The
proper name is the Model 87 Musket, based off the 1885 high wall. Which
such an erudite individual such as yourself knows. Someone that can't
point me in the right direction doesn't strike me as someone that knows
what he is talking about.

Sound and fury, signifying nothing...

Tom wrote:
LOL, My goodness, Louis, you had to go offshore to a country, where
basically, guns are outlawed, to get someone to back your dopey assertion.
How about a quote from someone reputable?
How about a quote from Watrous or Madis?

On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:29:29 -0600, Louis Ohland
wrote:

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Wincheste...les.htm#WINDER


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_M1887

http://www.winchestercollector.org/guns/1887shot.shtml

http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/1887-w...er-shotgun.htm

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_value_of_a_Winchester_M_1887_high_wall _serial_13343_22_short_in_good_clean_working_condi tion_with_military_sights_and_manufactured_in_1888

One of the arms I sold in 2000, to save my home, was an 1887, lever
action shotgun.

Gunner





Tom wrote:
Trevor Jones wrote:
Tom wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or
bushing the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model
1885 with different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?

Trevor Jones wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications?
Grab that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...




What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of finish
do you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many
variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a color
case hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Louis
Could you clarify those Winchester models, please?

Tom


Model 87 Winchester was a Military type trainer based on the 1885
actions.

Most that I see referenced in the books, were .22 cal.

I have the 2 Campbell books on the 1885 single shots. The general
gist is that just about anything you wanted, could be got from the
factory, if you were willing to pay. But it's been a long time.

"Factory" letters are available for the Winchester rifles, from the
Cody Museum, if ya didn't know.

A rebarell?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Well, Trevor I've got more than a few Winchesters and all of my Model 1887s
are lever action shotguns and my muskets are either 1885 or 1895.

Tom

Oddly enough, Winchester did make a 20ga based on the 1885. One known
specimen of a 28ga exists as well.

Always did like the lever action shotgun, though I don't think any LEOs
would appreciate the pistol grip a-la Terminator.

Gunner wrote:
http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Wincheste...les.htm#WINDER
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_M1887
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_value_of_a_Winchester_M_1887_high_wall _serial_13343_22_short_in_good_clean_working_condi tion_with_military_sights_and_manufactured_in_1888
One of the arms I sold in 2000, to save my home, was an 1887, lever action shotgun.

Tom wrote:

Trevor Jones wrote:

Tom wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or
bushing the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model
1885 with different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?

Trevor Jones wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications?
Grab that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...





What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of finish
do you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many
variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a color
case hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Louis
Could you clarify those Winchester models, please?

Tom



Model 87 Winchester was a Military type trainer based on the 1885
actions.

Most that I see referenced in the books, were .22 cal.

I have the 2 Campbell books on the 1885 single shots. The general
gist is that just about anything you wanted, could be got from the
factory, if you were willing to pay. But it's been a long time.

"Factory" letters are available for the Winchester rifles, from the
Cody Museum, if ya didn't know.

A rebarell?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Well, Trevor I've got more than a few Winchesters and all of my Model 1887s
are lever action shotguns and my muskets are either 1885 or 1895.

Tom

Winchester listed it as a model 87. shrug Good enough for me.
http://books.google.com/books?id=T-I...c6jeAt52WGmIt0

The part of the book quoted above spells it out fairly well, I suppose.

I think it serves as a better researched answer than the Wiki one that
told the guy that he did not know what he was talking about with his own
gun, anyway.
If it had another model number, I am pretty sure that Mr. Campbell
would have used the designation in his books, given the amount of time
he has spent in the game.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Trevor Jones wrote:
Tom wrote:

Trevor Jones wrote:

Tom wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or
bushing the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model
1885 with different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?

Trevor Jones wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications?
Grab that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...






What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of finish
do you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many
variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a color
case hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Louis
Could you clarify those Winchester models, please?

Tom




Model 87 Winchester was a Military type trainer based on the 1885
actions.

Most that I see referenced in the books, were .22 cal.

I have the 2 Campbell books on the 1885 single shots. The general
gist is that just about anything you wanted, could be got from the
factory, if you were willing to pay. But it's been a long time.

"Factory" letters are available for the Winchester rifles, from the
Cody Museum, if ya didn't know.

A rebarell?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Well, Trevor I've got more than a few Winchesters and all of my Model
1887s
are lever action shotguns and my muskets are either 1885 or 1895.

Tom


Winchester listed it as a model 87. shrug Good enough for me.
http://books.google.com/books?id=T-I...c6jeAt52WGmIt0


The part of the book quoted above spells it out fairly well, I suppose.

I think it serves as a better researched answer than the Wiki one that
told the guy that he did not know what he was talking about with his own
gun, anyway.
If it had another model number, I am pretty sure that Mr. Campbell
would have used the designation in his books, given the amount of time
he has spent in the game.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

LOL
How about you read exactly what was said and then tell me when they started listing
muskets as M87? Listing as M87 didn't mean they were marked as M87.

How about you visit this page in the same book and point out your M87 musket:
http://books.google.com/books?id=T-I...WGmIt0#PPR5,M1


Tom

Trevor Jones wrote:

Tom wrote:

Trevor Jones wrote:

Tom wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or
bushing the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model
1885 with different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?

Trevor Jones wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications?
Grab that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...






What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of finish
do you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many
variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a color
case hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Louis
Could you clarify those Winchester models, please?

Tom




Model 87 Winchester was a Military type trainer based on the 1885
actions.

Most that I see referenced in the books, were .22 cal.

I have the 2 Campbell books on the 1885 single shots. The general
gist is that just about anything you wanted, could be got from the
factory, if you were willing to pay. But it's been a long time.

"Factory" letters are available for the Winchester rifles, from the
Cody Museum, if ya didn't know.

A rebarell?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Well, Trevor I've got more than a few Winchesters and all of my Model
1887s
are lever action shotguns and my muskets are either 1885 or 1895.

Tom


Winchester listed it as a model 87. shrug Good enough for me.
http://books.google.com/books?id=T-I...c6jeAt52WGmIt0


The part of the book quoted above spells it out fairly well, I suppose.

I think it serves as a better researched answer than the Wiki one that
told the guy that he did not know what he was talking about with his own
gun, anyway.
If it had another model number, I am pretty sure that Mr. Campbell
would have used the designation in his books, given the amount of time
he has spent in the game.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

LOL
How come it isn't listed in the index of the same book?
Yet the M87 shotgun is.

Tom

Louis Ohland wrote:

Gee, Tom, I don't see you as a contributor to "The Winchester
Single-Shot - A History and Analysis" by John Campbell. Page 149-164.
ISBN: 0-917218-68-X

If you want to get wound up over model names, what's it to ya? The
proper name is the Model 87 Musket, based off the 1885 high wall. Which
such an erudite individual such as yourself knows. Someone that can't
point me in the right direction doesn't strike me as someone that knows
what he is talking about.

Sound and fury, signifying nothing...

Tom wrote:

LOL, My goodness, Louis, you had to go offshore to a country, where
basically, guns are outlawed, to get someone to back your dopey
assertion.
How about a quote from someone reputable?
How about a quote from Watrous or Madis?


Louis you're such a little tosspot.
I notice you cut my post indicating I had things to do.
However you come back slavering at the mouth with some
reference which means nothing.
I don't see any quotes backing up your claim.
http://books.google.com/books?id=T-I...WGmIt0#PPR5,M1

This is the model index from the book Trevor's basing his claim,
I'd like you to point out your m87 musket on that page.
Trevor makes the claim that Winchester listed them, doesn't mean
they marked them thus. Show me the markings on your rifle.
Go here and try and find the listing of your M87:
http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...rm1887-m87.jpg



Tom

Tom wrote:
Trevor Jones wrote:

Tom wrote:

Trevor Jones wrote:

Tom wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or
bushing the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model
1885 with different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?

Trevor Jones wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications?
Grab that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...







What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of
finish do you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many
variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a color
case hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Louis
Could you clarify those Winchester models, please?

Tom





Model 87 Winchester was a Military type trainer based on the 1885
actions.

Most that I see referenced in the books, were .22 cal.

I have the 2 Campbell books on the 1885 single shots. The general
gist is that just about anything you wanted, could be got from the
factory, if you were willing to pay. But it's been a long time.

"Factory" letters are available for the Winchester rifles, from the
Cody Museum, if ya didn't know.

A rebarell?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Well, Trevor I've got more than a few Winchesters and all of my Model
1887s
are lever action shotguns and my muskets are either 1885 or 1895.

Tom



Winchester listed it as a model 87. shrug Good enough for me.
http://books.google.com/books?id=T-I...c6jeAt52WGmIt0


The part of the book quoted above spells it out fairly well, I suppose.

I think it serves as a better researched answer than the Wiki one
that told the guy that he did not know what he was talking about with
his own gun, anyway.
If it had another model number, I am pretty sure that Mr. Campbell
would have used the designation in his books, given the amount of time
he has spent in the game.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

LOL
How come it isn't listed in the index of the same book?
Yet the M87 shotgun is.

Tom

Ask the author. If this is the first index provided in a book that was
less than complete, it would be a surprise to me.

All he had to say about it was that the model was arbitrarily
assigned. And that it should not have been, as it conflicted with the
designation given the shotgun. I do not have a copy, so I cannot cite
his references.

I have no vested interest in whether you beleive or not, in this case.
If you choose to not, so be it. The information, that there IS indeed a
variant of the 1885, called a Model 87, is a matter of record in several
places. Anyone that wants to find the info, can.

I have not got the Madis book on hand, so cannot refer to it in any
way at this point. I have The Winchester Reapeating Arms Company Its
History and Development, by Herbert Houze, Former curator of the
Winchester Arms Museum, now the Buffalo Bill Historical center, at Cody
Wyoming. The athor of this book barely mentions the 1885, but spends a
great deal of time on some very iteresting models that never amounted to
much, production-wise, but are quite interesting.

I have the two editions of Campells works on the 1885 and it's variants.
Given that the Campell works total somwhere near 500 pages of
information on the 1885, it's history and variations, I expect that
there is more coverage of the minutae relating specifically to the
Single Shot, than in most of the references that came before.

Campell also mentions that the Model 87 designation seemed to fly in
the face of logic, given that Winchester already had the 1887 shotguns
in circulation.

I can recommend the Campell books as $100 well spent, if you have an
interest in the Winchester 1885 and it's many variants. It is well
written, and a pretty good read. He covers a lot of stuff that has been
covered prior, as well as a fair bit of new information, as recovered
from the mass of Winchester documentation that found it's way to Cody
over the years.

Given the amount of still unsorted information stored at the Cody
museum, I have little doubt that there is yet to be more info forthcoming.

Worth ordering in at the public library, if you have access to one
that can do inter-library loans.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Trevor Jones wrote:
Tom wrote:

Trevor Jones wrote:

Tom wrote:

Trevor Jones wrote:

Tom wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Trevor, just kidding!

I'm looking now at making a breech block for a Stevens 22LR. Or
bushing the firing pin on a .38-55 Winchester 1987 Musket (Model
1885 with different stock...)

I have a healthy respect for the power of confined powder..

For pressure bearing parts, isn't 4140 a good bet?

Trevor Jones wrote:

Louis Ohland wrote:

Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications?
Grab that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...








What kind of action? What type of cartridges? What kind of
finish do you want on it when you are done?

Not enough information provided Louis, as there are too many
variables.

Best bet is to read what the makers of similar actions are using.

Suitable for a stainless bolt action is not suitable for a
color case hardened black powder receiver, etc.

Whatcha hankerin to make?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Louis
Could you clarify those Winchester models, please?

Tom






Model 87 Winchester was a Military type trainer based on the 1885
actions.

Most that I see referenced in the books, were .22 cal.

I have the 2 Campbell books on the 1885 single shots. The general
gist is that just about anything you wanted, could be got from the
factory, if you were willing to pay. But it's been a long time.

"Factory" letters are available for the Winchester rifles, from
the Cody Museum, if ya didn't know.

A rebarell?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Well, Trevor I've got more than a few Winchesters and all of my
Model 1887s
are lever action shotguns and my muskets are either 1885 or 1895.

Tom




Winchester listed it as a model 87. shrug Good enough for me.
http://books.google.com/books?id=T-I...c6jeAt52WGmIt0


The part of the book quoted above spells it out fairly well, I suppose.

I think it serves as a better researched answer than the Wiki one
that told the guy that he did not know what he was talking about with
his own gun, anyway.
If it had another model number, I am pretty sure that Mr. Campbell
would have used the designation in his books, given the amount of
time he has spent in the game.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

LOL
How come it isn't listed in the index of the same book?
Yet the M87 shotgun is.

Tom


Ask the author. If this is the first index provided in a book that was
less than complete, it would be a surprise to me.

You think the author and editors would have made the same mistake here
given their credentials, read the preface:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...rm1887-m87.jpg

All he had to say about it was that the model was arbitrarily assigned.
And that it should not have been, as it conflicted with the designation
given the shotgun. I do not have a copy, so I cannot cite his references.

Actually, he is quoting previous editions, however, he says more than that
but you refuse the implications.
Just when did they arbitrarily "list" the musket as the M87? How many muskets
had been made before this was instigated? By your reasoning do all muskets built
prior to this arbitrary renaming become M87s by default?
Listing the musket in catalogues as the M87 did not mean necessarily, they were
marked as such.

Cheers
Trevor Jones


Tom

Tom wrote:

You think the author and editors would have made the same mistake here
given their credentials, read the preface:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...rm1887-m87.jpg

Yup. Good credentials!

Same book says the the single shot musket production continued, after
the 1885 rifles production ceased, and was listed as the Model 87.
I figure that the author would know.

Page 28 of the book you posted the list from, a couple lines up from
the bottom of the page. Right about the point where he says that the
designation conflicted with the scheme of things.



All he had to say about it was that the model was arbitrarily
assigned. And that it should not have been, as it conflicted with the
designation given the shotgun. I do not have a copy, so I cannot cite
his references.

Actually, he is quoting previous editions, however, he says more than that
but you refuse the implications.
Just when did they arbitrarily "list" the musket as the M87? How many
muskets
had been made before this was instigated? By your reasoning do all
muskets built
prior to this arbitrary renaming become M87s by default?

Nope. The Model 87 designation referred to, according to Campbell, the
third, and last version, of the Winder Musket. Fairly specific.
The comment in the book you cite, states that they were listed as
Model 87, and that production of them carried on, after the production
of the other Single Shot's had ceased.

Listing the musket in catalogues as the M87 did not mean necessarily,
they were
marked as such.

I have seen no mention of ANY of the 1885 rifles being marked as such,
either. Not prior to the modern remakes coming on the scene, in any
case. Know of any? Model 1885's, predating the modern era, that are
marked with the Model 1885, that is.
They still are 1885 rifles.

On the documents that are reproduced, Winchester personell refer to
the model as the Single Loader, or Single Shot Rifle. Campbell states
that references did not include the 1885 designation until quite a while
into production, though he does not specify when that happened.

A comment, too, on you request to reference Madis. In Campbells intro
to the first book, he names Madis specifically, as having given quite
freely of his time towards this endeavor. He also names Houze, as well,
Author of the book I made reference to earlier.
I would have expected these esteemed authors to have been privvy to
most if not all the information that Mr. Campbell has presented, and I
would also have expected them to have been fairly vocal if any of the
information being presented strayed from the realms of accurate.


Tom. Strange as this may seem, I figure that Campbell may have more
time in the archives than you. He published the first book in 1995, and
the second in 2000. I suspect that there has been rather a lot of
information surfaced in the last decade, that could merit yet another book.
In this information age, where folk like you and I, from far corners
of the planet, are now able to compare notes in relative ease,
information can be checked and cross checked quite readilly.
I would venture to say that the Campell books on the Winchester Single
Shot Rifles, are about as up to date info as one can expect to find, and
that if there were any serious flaws in his reporting of the facts, they
would become quite well known.

The Model 87 is a variant of the Winder Musket, is called Model 87 in
Winchester documents reprinted in Campells book,and, is mentioned by
name in several other books. Even if only to comment on the very issue
wich you appear to think means that it cannot be a Model 87, which is
that the designation is used on a shotgun as well. shrug

Nobody is denying that the Model 1887 designation got attached to the
shotgun. Doesn't much matter, either. We (Louis and I) were discussing a
Musket, not a Shotgun, and at least we are both able to tell the difference.

You have produced a great deal of information regarding shotguns, and
beyond that you see ommissions as proof in other places. Not my problem
to make you beleive. The best I can do is put forth the info that is
available. It may save someone in the future, from being stuck with as
much a poor answer as the Wiki one, where the fellow was told that he
did not actually have a rifle, but a shotgun.

Should you get a hand on the Campbell books, you could do worse things
than to pay close attention to the various references therein, giving
some of the details of the particular variant, as well as the
reproductions of the Winchester drawings for parts relating specifically
to this model. Campbell has reproduced two drawings of screws that were
unique to the Model 87, as well as drawings of other parts. The model
designation on the drawings is "G87R", and the drawings were sources
from the collection of Mr. Bo Clerke.

Of particular interest is a Winchester Drawing dated in 1952, in which
they refer to it as "Model 87 Single Shot"

The part in that case, is a fly for the hammer, to leave the hammer at
half-cock on closing of the breech. Not likely to be found on a Shotgun.
It is singled out for curiousity, as it was drawn by Winchester many
years after they had cesed production of parts for these rifles, and it
is a mystery as to why they went to the trouble.

There are also reprinted documents relating to the "Model 87" and
production changes thereto, that refer to it by that designation.

I recommend the Campbell books. They really should be read together.

Lots of good info, many factory drawings, lots of info about
accesories and accoutrements that were designed specifically for the
Single Shot's, and awsome photo's.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Trevor Jones wrote:

Tom wrote:

You think the author and editors would have made the same mistake here
given their credentials, read the preface:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...rm1887-m87.jpg


Yup. Good credentials!

..................

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Trevor
You don't get do you?

Louis wrote:
"As has been surmised, the 1885 "High Wall" and the related "Low Wall"
formed the basis for the 1887 Musket"

Which is a crock.

But Louis being Louis, and you being Trevor, must go to all sily lengths,
to defend Louis perennial sloppy postings.

The Model 1887 was not a bloody rifle. End of story.

Now go back to picking scabs, Trevor.

Tom

On Jan 2, 9:08*pm, Louis Ohland wrote:
* *Says it all. What grades are suitable for what applications? Grab
that 1.25" round of 1018 and make my own action...

Whatta you want to do? Small replacement parts can be made from drill
rod or ground flat stock and hardened. Black powder muzzleloader
action parts can be made from low-carbon stock and case-hardened, as
were a lot of the originals. Chrome-moly is what's used for most high-
power rifle actions. With those, you'd better have a good heat-
treater lined up, a torch and a can of oil ain't going to cut it.

Sounds like you need to visit a good library and read some gunsmithing
books, Howe's The Professional Gunsmith is a place to start. If
you're trying to design your own cartridge arms, you'd better get a
good grounding in stress, strain and some of the more intricate parts
of mechanical engineering.

If single shots are your thing, read some of Frank de Haas' books,
he's got some tips on what to use for what parts.

Stan

Tom wrote:
Trevor Jones wrote:

Tom wrote:

You think the author and editors would have made the same mistake here
given their credentials, read the preface:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...rm1887-m87.jpg



Yup. Good credentials!

.................


Cheers
Trevor Jones

Trevor
You don't get do you?

Louis wrote:
"As has been surmised, the 1885 "High Wall" and the related "Low Wall"
formed the basis for the 1887 Musket"

Which is a crock.

But Louis being Louis, and you being Trevor, must go to all sily lengths,
to defend Louis perennial sloppy postings.

The Model 1887 was not a bloody rifle. End of story.

Now go back to picking scabs, Trevor.

Tom




You running low on your meds Tom? You seem a bit tense.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Tom wrote:

Trevor Jones wrote:

Tom wrote:

You think the author and editors would have made the same mistake here
given their credentials, read the preface:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...rm1887-m87.jpg



Yup. Good credentials!

.................


Cheers
Trevor Jones

Trevor
You don't get do you?

Louis wrote:
"As has been surmised, the 1885 "High Wall" and the related "Low Wall"
formed the basis for the 1887 Musket"

Which is a crock.

But Louis being Louis, and you being Trevor, must go to all sily lengths,
to defend Louis perennial sloppy postings.

The Model 1887 was not a bloody rifle. End of story.

Now go back to picking scabs, Trevor.

Tom


FWIW, Tom, I am perfectly clear on what an 1887 is, it is a shotgun.

The Model 87 on the other hand, would be the Musket that Louis has.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

My dad has Single Shot Rifles and Actions, the next one to get is Mr.
Single Shot's Book of Rifle Plans

http://dehaas.com/guns/

"To inquire about or purchase muzzle-loading gun barrels for rifles,
pistols and shotguns, or to purchase any of the books written by Frank
DeHaas and featured here, contact Mark DeHaas at (660) 872-6308."


wrote:
If single shots are your thing, read some of Frank de Haas' books,
he's got some tips on what to use for what parts.