Tom wrote:

You think the author and editors would have made the same mistake here
given their credentials, read the preface:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...rm1887-m87.jpg

Yup. Good credentials!

Same book says the the single shot musket production continued, after
the 1885 rifles production ceased, and was listed as the Model 87.
I figure that the author would know.

Page 28 of the book you posted the list from, a couple lines up from
the bottom of the page. Right about the point where he says that the
designation conflicted with the scheme of things.



All he had to say about it was that the model was arbitrarily
assigned. And that it should not have been, as it conflicted with the
designation given the shotgun. I do not have a copy, so I cannot cite
his references.

Actually, he is quoting previous editions, however, he says more than that
but you refuse the implications.
Just when did they arbitrarily "list" the musket as the M87? How many
muskets
had been made before this was instigated? By your reasoning do all
muskets built
prior to this arbitrary renaming become M87s by default?

Nope. The Model 87 designation referred to, according to Campbell, the
third, and last version, of the Winder Musket. Fairly specific.
The comment in the book you cite, states that they were listed as
Model 87, and that production of them carried on, after the production
of the other Single Shot's had ceased.

Listing the musket in catalogues as the M87 did not mean necessarily,
they were
marked as such.

I have seen no mention of ANY of the 1885 rifles being marked as such,
either. Not prior to the modern remakes coming on the scene, in any
case. Know of any? Model 1885's, predating the modern era, that are
marked with the Model 1885, that is.
They still are 1885 rifles.

On the documents that are reproduced, Winchester personell refer to
the model as the Single Loader, or Single Shot Rifle. Campbell states
that references did not include the 1885 designation until quite a while
into production, though he does not specify when that happened.

A comment, too, on you request to reference Madis. In Campbells intro
to the first book, he names Madis specifically, as having given quite
freely of his time towards this endeavor. He also names Houze, as well,
Author of the book I made reference to earlier.
I would have expected these esteemed authors to have been privvy to
most if not all the information that Mr. Campbell has presented, and I
would also have expected them to have been fairly vocal if any of the
information being presented strayed from the realms of accurate.


Tom. Strange as this may seem, I figure that Campbell may have more
time in the archives than you. He published the first book in 1995, and
the second in 2000. I suspect that there has been rather a lot of
information surfaced in the last decade, that could merit yet another book.
In this information age, where folk like you and I, from far corners
of the planet, are now able to compare notes in relative ease,
information can be checked and cross checked quite readilly.
I would venture to say that the Campell books on the Winchester Single
Shot Rifles, are about as up to date info as one can expect to find, and
that if there were any serious flaws in his reporting of the facts, they
would become quite well known.

The Model 87 is a variant of the Winder Musket, is called Model 87 in
Winchester documents reprinted in Campells book,and, is mentioned by
name in several other books. Even if only to comment on the very issue
wich you appear to think means that it cannot be a Model 87, which is
that the designation is used on a shotgun as well. shrug

Nobody is denying that the Model 1887 designation got attached to the
shotgun. Doesn't much matter, either. We (Louis and I) were discussing a
Musket, not a Shotgun, and at least we are both able to tell the difference.

You have produced a great deal of information regarding shotguns, and
beyond that you see ommissions as proof in other places. Not my problem
to make you beleive. The best I can do is put forth the info that is
available. It may save someone in the future, from being stuck with as
much a poor answer as the Wiki one, where the fellow was told that he
did not actually have a rifle, but a shotgun.

Should you get a hand on the Campbell books, you could do worse things
than to pay close attention to the various references therein, giving
some of the details of the particular variant, as well as the
reproductions of the Winchester drawings for parts relating specifically
to this model. Campbell has reproduced two drawings of screws that were
unique to the Model 87, as well as drawings of other parts. The model
designation on the drawings is "G87R", and the drawings were sources
from the collection of Mr. Bo Clerke.

Of particular interest is a Winchester Drawing dated in 1952, in which
they refer to it as "Model 87 Single Shot"

The part in that case, is a fly for the hammer, to leave the hammer at
half-cock on closing of the breech. Not likely to be found on a Shotgun.
It is singled out for curiousity, as it was drawn by Winchester many
years after they had cesed production of parts for these rifles, and it
is a mystery as to why they went to the trouble.

There are also reprinted documents relating to the "Model 87" and
production changes thereto, that refer to it by that designation.

I recommend the Campbell books. They really should be read together.

Lots of good info, many factory drawings, lots of info about
accesories and accoutrements that were designed specifically for the
Single Shot's, and awsome photo's.

Cheers
Trevor Jones