Eric Stevens says in
:

Several people are to be trusted. The problem is summarised
by the old saying "I can trust you to keep a secret. It's
the people who you tell I'm not so sure about". I'm in the
business. I just don't tell people, no matter how
trustyworthy they may be. Its a pity but that's the way
part of the world works. I know Searles (for example) has
exactly the same problem but in a different context.

This is pedantic silliness.

--
Philip
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Mol. Anth. Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DNAanthro/
Mol. Evol. Hominids http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/
Evol. of Xchrom.
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/xlinked.htm
Pal. Anth. Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Paleoanthro/
Sci. Arch. Aux
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sciarchauxilliary/

Inger E Johansson wrote:

"Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet
...


Inger E Johansson wrote:

"Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet
...


Inger E Johansson wrote:

"Parallax" skrev i meddelandet
om...

[..]

I knew somebody who was doing trace elemental analysis of Cu
artifacts found in Apalachee mound areas of N. Florida using PIXE
analysis back in 1978. If I remember correctly, the source seemed
to
be the Great Lakes region.

In an article which had good ref for almost everything I found a
short
sentence which had no ref at all to it. That short sentence claimed
that
Ancient(!) copper artifacts analysed from sites all over the world
showed
that the copper origin from the Great Lake region. If that's right
or
wrong
I don't know since that one sentence wasn't possible to follow back
to
analyse-tests at all. What I would like to know is if anyone among
the
metallurgic specialist ever come accross copper artifacts where
tests
showed
or at least pointed to Great Lake copper origin?

Inger, to my knowledge the copper I have seen analysed from "ancient"
copper artefacts in Europe/Asia Minor show "local" sources - ie
Europe, Eurasia and the like.

What about the copper, and also silver/gold, analysed from Icelandic
sites?


Sorry read "Iceland" as "Greenland" before. The copper (or bronze) and
silver items I have seen from Iceland have been imported from the old
world.

export of silver on at least one ship F R O M Iceland in 1430's? Definitely
not from the Old World.

All I'm saying is that *I* am no aware of other than old world silver
- mainly in the form of coins.

I am aware of there being silver among the copper in the Great Lakes
area. I'm aware copper was traded/taken from Hudson Bay and Coppermine
river area to Greenland. I have also seen claims of Greenland
meteorite iron being found in the Great Lakes area (among other
places).

Given the above and that the Norse were in Greenland they may well
have traded for it from the native people - either on NA continent
itself or with the Inuits. That it has found its way to Iceland that
way. Only I know of no actual evidence of it being the case, no matter
how plausible it is.

--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Doug Weller wrote:

snip

I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were among
the items Ivar Bardson delivered from Vinland as part of the tithes from
Vinland. It may take some time to put all the lines from Stavanger to Rome
together here. Seems as if it might have been sold in Flandern but I really
hope not. More as soon as I have followed that one up.


Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this?

Doug

The Vikings were well known to trade goods with the people of Turkey.
They came down the rivers in Russia.

Coconuts last a long time and likely were stores on long trips once traded for.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Martin H,
while your point is good it's not correct in the case here. You see it was
delivered by Ivar Bardson and it's noted to be delievered of him as part of
the tithes he brought with him from Vinland on his voyage to Vinland and
Greenland to collect the tithes for 1354-1364.

Inger E

"Martin H. Eastburn" skrev i meddelandet
. com...
Doug Weller wrote:

snip

I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were
among
the items Ivar Bardson delivered from Vinland as part of the tithes from
Vinland. It may take some time to put all the lines from Stavanger to
Rome
together here. Seems as if it might have been sold in Flandern but I
really
hope not. More as soon as I have followed that one up.


Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this?

Doug

The Vikings were well known to trade goods with the people of Turkey.
They came down the rivers in Russia.

Coconuts last a long time and likely were stores on long trips once traded
for.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

"Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet
...


Inger E Johansson wrote:

"Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet
...


Inger E Johansson wrote:

"Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet
...


Inger E Johansson wrote:

"Parallax" skrev i meddelandet
om...

[..]

I knew somebody who was doing trace elemental analysis of Cu
artifacts found in Apalachee mound areas of N. Florida using
PIXE
analysis back in 1978. If I remember correctly, the source
seemed
to
be the Great Lakes region.

In an article which had good ref for almost everything I found a
short
sentence which had no ref at all to it. That short sentence
claimed
that
Ancient(!) copper artifacts analysed from sites all over the
world
showed
that the copper origin from the Great Lake region. If that's
right
or
wrong
I don't know since that one sentence wasn't possible to follow
back
to
analyse-tests at all. What I would like to know is if anyone
among
the
metallurgic specialist ever come accross copper artifacts where
tests
showed
or at least pointed to Great Lake copper origin?

Inger, to my knowledge the copper I have seen analysed from
"ancient"
copper artefacts in Europe/Asia Minor show "local" sources - ie
Europe, Eurasia and the like.

What about the copper, and also silver/gold, analysed from Icelandic
sites?


Sorry read "Iceland" as "Greenland" before. The copper (or bronze) and
silver items I have seen from Iceland have been imported from the old
world.

export of silver on at least one ship F R O M Iceland in 1430's?
Definitely
not from the Old World.

All I'm saying is that *I* am no aware of other than old world silver
- mainly in the form of coins.

I am aware of there being silver among the copper in the Great Lakes
area. I'm aware copper was traded/taken from Hudson Bay and Coppermine
river area to Greenland. I have also seen claims of Greenland
meteorite iron being found in the Great Lakes area (among other
places).

Given the above and that the Norse were in Greenland they may well
have traded for it from the native people - either on NA continent
itself or with the Inuits. That it has found its way to Iceland that
way. Only I know of no actual evidence of it being the case, no matter
how plausible it is.

Others have evidence. I have documents from the time.

Inger E


--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Apparently on date Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:49:17 +0100, Doug Weller
said:

On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 09:58:41 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:

I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were among

Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this?

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/swallow.txt

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 01:01:29 GMT, Philip Deitiker
wrote:

Eric Stevens says in
:

Several people are to be trusted. The problem is summarised
by the old saying "I can trust you to keep a secret. It's
the people who you tell I'm not so sure about". I'm in the
business. I just don't tell people, no matter how
trustyworthy they may be. Its a pity but that's the way
part of the world works. I know Searles (for example) has
exactly the same problem but in a different context.

This is pedantic silliness.

Nonsense. Its what happens when a Judge issues a suppression order
relating to evidence. The people concerned _just_do_not_tell_, unless
of course they wish to risk going to jail.

In another context, the information is 'classified' (as confidential
or secret).




Eric Stevens

"Eric Stevens" skrev i meddelandet
news
On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 01:01:29 GMT, Philip Deitiker
wrote:

Eric Stevens says in
:

Several people are to be trusted. The problem is summarised
by the old saying "I can trust you to keep a secret. It's
the people who you tell I'm not so sure about". I'm in the
business. I just don't tell people, no matter how
trustyworthy they may be. Its a pity but that's the way
part of the world works. I know Searles (for example) has
exactly the same problem but in a different context.

This is pedantic silliness.

Nonsense. Its what happens when a Judge issues a suppression order
relating to evidence. The people concerned _just_do_not_tell_, unless
of course they wish to risk going to jail.

In another context, the information is 'classified' (as confidential
or secret).

Yes Eric,
but there might be a way to get the testresults in question out even then.
You see since this directly involves in a positiv way Iceland's history the
testresult might be let free if an other Official Dept asks for it. Might be
worse trying.

Inger E




Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens says in
news
This is pedantic silliness.

Nonsense. Its what happens when a Judge issues a
suppression order relating to evidence. The people
concerned _just_do_not_tell_, unless of course they wish
to risk going to jail.

In another context, the information is 'classified' (as
confidential or secret).

Eric, Inger has an overbearing reliance on 'secret' documents
she cannot disclose, in such instances one document might have
some value, however 100s which she will not disclose is not a
problem of the courts, it's a problem of her ethics.

This is a pedantic sidetrack and a silly diversion when you know
for a fact the real problem is in the integrity of the
individual not the predisposition of her sources.

--
Philip
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Mol. Anth. Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DNAanthro/
Mol. Evol. Hominids http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/
Evol. of Xchrom.
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/xlinked.htm
Pal. Anth. Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Paleoanthro/
Sci. Arch. Aux
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sciarchauxilliary/

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:40:04 GMT, "Inger E Johansson"
wrote:


"Eric Stevens" skrev i meddelandet
news
On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 01:01:29 GMT, Philip Deitiker
wrote:

Eric Stevens says in
:

Several people are to be trusted. The problem is summarised
by the old saying "I can trust you to keep a secret. It's
the people who you tell I'm not so sure about". I'm in the
business. I just don't tell people, no matter how
trustyworthy they may be. Its a pity but that's the way
part of the world works. I know Searles (for example) has
exactly the same problem but in a different context.

This is pedantic silliness.

Nonsense. Its what happens when a Judge issues a suppression order
relating to evidence. The people concerned _just_do_not_tell_, unless
of course they wish to risk going to jail.

In another context, the information is 'classified' (as confidential
or secret).

Yes Eric,
but there might be a way to get the testresults in question out even then.
You see since this directly involves in a positiv way Iceland's history the
testresult might be let free if an other Official Dept asks for it. Might be
worse trying.


I will suggest that but, for the results to be meaningful, the silver
in question will have to be identified and that will be the start of
the whole story leaking out. I understand it involves large sums of
money and the reputation of _very_important_ persons_ so I am not
optimistic. In any case, don't hold your breath.



Eric Stevens

"Eric Stevens" skrev i meddelandet
...
On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:40:04 GMT, "Inger E Johansson"
wrote:


"Eric Stevens" skrev i meddelandet
news
On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 01:01:29 GMT, Philip Deitiker
wrote:

Eric Stevens says in
:

Several people are to be trusted. The problem is summarised
by the old saying "I can trust you to keep a secret. It's
the people who you tell I'm not so sure about". I'm in the
business. I just don't tell people, no matter how
trustyworthy they may be. Its a pity but that's the way
part of the world works. I know Searles (for example) has
exactly the same problem but in a different context.

This is pedantic silliness.

Nonsense. Its what happens when a Judge issues a suppression order
relating to evidence. The people concerned _just_do_not_tell_, unless
of course they wish to risk going to jail.

In another context, the information is 'classified' (as confidential
or secret).

Yes Eric,
but there might be a way to get the testresults in question out even
then.
You see since this directly involves in a positiv way Iceland's history
the
testresult might be let free if an other Official Dept asks for it. Might
be
worse trying.


I will suggest that but, for the results to be meaningful, the silver
in question will have to be identified and that will be the start of
the whole story leaking out. I understand it involves large sums of
money and the reputation of _very_important_ persons_ so I am not
optimistic. In any case, don't hold your breath.

I am more optimistic. You see in this case it isn't important where the coin
is today nor where they was and why they where analyzed. Only where they
were found and that they are analyzed. I am pretty sure that Fridrik and one
of our other friends in Iceland have the contacts needed for a Dept or the
University to write an essay about the coins. That wouldn't have to include
the secret information and I am pretty sure that in Iceland where the
ancestors matters as much as the living this can be solved. In Sweden it
would have been an other matter. Here alike cases has had to go up to
Govermental level for scientists to be allowed under secrecy acts to make a
scientific study of such type of material. But it has been done.

Inger E



Eric Stevens

I think you missed it.

What does a hunter do with the bones of a hunt ? - Carve on them and
make prizes out of them. You speak of an empty coconut-bowl (e.g. used up but hard shell)
If you know Coconut - the shell is hard and dark. It can be carved.

These were used by pacific islanders - lived there - for both coconut meat and oil,
but later fresh water.

So use of what is left over is very part of life.

And I have a lot of Viking blood myself. :-)

Martin

Inger E Johansson wrote:

Martin H,
while your point is good it's not correct in the case here. You see it was
delivered by Ivar Bardson and it's noted to be delievered of him as part of
the tithes he brought with him from Vinland on his voyage to Vinland and
Greenland to collect the tithes for 1354-1364.

Inger E

"Martin H. Eastburn" skrev i meddelandet
. com...

Doug Weller wrote:

snip

I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were

among

the items Ivar Bardson delivered from Vinland as part of the tithes from
Vinland. It may take some time to put all the lines from Stavanger to

Rome

together here. Seems as if it might have been sold in Flandern but I

really

hope not. More as soon as I have followed that one up.


Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this?

Doug

The Vikings were well known to trade goods with the people of Turkey.
They came down the rivers in Russia.

Coconuts last a long time and likely were stores on long trips once traded

for.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder






--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Martyn Harrison wrote:

Apparently on date Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:49:17 +0100, Doug Weller
said:


On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 09:58:41 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:


I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were among

Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this?


http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/swallow.txt


Or this :

http://www.anycities.com/lydiaolydia/Marx.html



--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Martin H,
if you have Viking blood in you is irrelevant to the fact that the valuble
coconut bowl only was one of two known coming from the New World in Pre
Columbian days.
Or do you believe your proven(?) Viking genes make a difference on that
fact?

Inger E

Martin H,
so now your making fun of the Catholic Church.
Wouldn't you be better off accepting that Ivar Bardson did deliever the Bowl
in 1364.
Does that fact hurt your pet-horses?

Inger E

Inger E Johansson wrote:

Martin H,
if you have Viking blood in you is irrelevant to the fact that the valuble
coconut bowl only was one of two known coming from the New World in Pre
Columbian days.
Or do you believe your proven(?) Viking genes make a difference on that
fact?

Inger E


Inger,

From references presented here, it appears that there were many
bowls made around coconut shells in Europe around that time.
One site even said that they were common enough that some were
owned by commoners; but that they were often given as gifts, and
gave the owner (and of course the giver) some status.

Given this, why could the bowl(s) not have been brought to
Greenland from who owned such bowls? Or why could the bowl(s)
not have been given as a gift to someone (perhaps a clergy
member or settlement leader) from someone in Europe?

Importation of such bowls from Europe needs to be ruled out
before your view of a North American or Caribbean provenance for
the coconut can be accepted. What evidence do you have that
this has been considered and rejected?

Tom McDonald

Tom,
I think you are naysayer acting like a strawman. You simply haven't got it
have you:
No matter if there where hundreds of coconut bowls in Europe in 14th
century,
No matter where all the other but two orgined from,
At least one of the two silvered coconut bowls origined from Vinland. That's
very very well documented. Re. the other our friend here in group Goran
Baarenhielm once told me was found in Iceland. Guess Goran might be able to
fill in the details for that one.

You have to accept fact. On a ship leaving Bergen 1354, passing Iceland was
Ivar Bardson and Paul Knutson. On board was Ivar Bardson's Icelandic
collegue - the tithes collector for Iceland as Ivar was for the dioceses
under Gardar Greenland. The dioceses in Iceland were two - Hola and
Skalholt. The dioceses under Gardar were three at the time in question and
Vinland was one of them.
It's also proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Ivar Bardson did return
with ALL of Vinland's tithes for 1354-1364 and the other tithes for the
Greenland See's dioceses AND that among the Vinland tithes items were the
silvered coconut bowl directly brought over the Atlantic. That's very very
well documented in Papal papers!

For your own sake you better accept that and work from there. There is no
use in disputing a hill you find while working the wood no matter if it's
not marked on your map. We have had enough of that drivel behavior. Not
everyone can perform the act of an OT(orientation)-organisation here in
Sweden who ordered the hill blown away before the orienteers from several
country start their game.....

Inger E

"Tom McDonald" skrev i meddelandet
...
Inger E Johansson wrote:

Martin H,
if you have Viking blood in you is irrelevant to the fact that the
valuble
coconut bowl only was one of two known coming from the New World in Pre
Columbian days.
Or do you believe your proven(?) Viking genes make a difference on that
fact?

Inger E


Inger,

From references presented here, it appears that there were many
bowls made around coconut shells in Europe around that time.
One site even said that they were common enough that some were
owned by commoners; but that they were often given as gifts, and
gave the owner (and of course the giver) some status.

Given this, why could the bowl(s) not have been brought to
Greenland from who owned such bowls? Or why could the bowl(s)
not have been given as a gift to someone (perhaps a clergy
member or settlement leader) from someone in Europe?

Importation of such bowls from Europe needs to be ruled out
before your view of a North American or Caribbean provenance for
the coconut can be accepted. What evidence do you have that
this has been considered and rejected?

Tom McDonald

Inger E Johansson wrote:

Tom,
I think you are naysayer acting like a strawman. You simply haven't got it
have you:
No matter if there where hundreds of coconut bowls in Europe in 14th
century,
No matter where all the other but two orgined from,
At least one of the two silvered coconut bowls origined from Vinland. That's
very very well documented. Re. the other our friend here in group Goran
Baarenhielm once told me was found in Iceland. Guess Goran might be able to
fill in the details for that one.

You have to accept fact. On a ship leaving Bergen 1354, passing Iceland was
Ivar Bardson and Paul Knutson. On board was Ivar Bardson's Icelandic
collegue - the tithes collector for Iceland as Ivar was for the dioceses
under Gardar Greenland. The dioceses in Iceland were two - Hola and
Skalholt. The dioceses under Gardar were three at the time in question and
Vinland was one of them.
It's also proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Ivar Bardson did return
with ALL of Vinland's tithes for 1354-1364 and the other tithes for the
Greenland See's dioceses AND that among the Vinland tithes items were the
silvered coconut bowl directly brought over the Atlantic. That's very very
well documented in Papal papers!

Inger,

I'm not questioning whether someone brought the bowl back to
Norway as part of Peter's Pence. I am wondering why you assume
that it was *made* in the New World? You haven't addressed that
at all.

You also haven't addressed the possibility that the bowl was
originally brought to Greenland and/or Vinland from Europe, and
was returned to Norway when the Norse in the west had to find
valuables to pay the tithes. Unless you can clearly demonstrate
that the bowl was made in the west, from a coconut that derived
from North America, you have only a 'what-if' scenario. Your
assumptions are no better than anyone else, and if you don't
address the possible options, you can't be acting in a scholarly
manner on this issue.

Tom McDonald

snip

Tom,
your questioning is a strawman-alike questioníng. Now I happen to know which
Indian tribe that mined the silver,
for that an for the silver in Icelandic artifacts. That doesn't alter the
simple fact that Ivar Bardson on travelling the voyage for collecting the
Tiundetaka(yes that was then name for the tithes 'taken'(=collected) from
the dioceses under Gardar Greenland. Ivar Bardson's voyage took several
years, as did the other known collector's voyages when Greenland and Vinland
was on the agenda. Latest documented collection was from 1500's(!) btw.

Fact is that the silvered coconut bowl came from the tithes collected in
Vinland North America. Not Greenland. Not Iceland nor anywhere else in the
Old World.

You better try to live with that instead of trying to find 'what if'
scenarios. Such doesn't alter the case at all.

Inger E

Inger E Johansson wrote:

Tom,
your questioning is a strawman-alike questioníng. Now I happen to know which
Indian tribe that mined the silver,
for that an for the silver in Icelandic artifacts.

OK, which one?

tk

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message om...
Martyn Harrison wrote:

Apparently on date Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:49:17 +0100, Doug Weller
said:


On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 09:58:41 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:


I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were among

Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this?


http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/swallow.txt


Or this :

http://www.anycities.com/lydiaolydia/Marx.html

That is comedy and you're wasting it on the humour impaired.
Besides it could be two African swallows taking the coconut to Europe
as a waterproof nest :-)

"t(nospam)kavanagh" skrev i meddelandet
...
Inger E Johansson wrote:

Tom,
your questioning is a strawman-alike questioníng. Now I happen to know
which
Indian tribe that mined the silver,
for that an for the silver in Icelandic artifacts.

OK, which one?

If all goes well you will be hearing it from their representant same as he
told me. When ? Time isn't essential truth is. Don't you agree?

Inger E

tk

On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 19:44:19 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:

Tom,
your questioning is a strawman-alike questioníng. Now I happen to know which
Indian tribe that mined the silver,
for that an for the silver in Icelandic artifacts. That doesn't alter the
simple fact that Ivar Bardson on travelling the voyage for collecting the
Tiundetaka(yes that was then name for the tithes 'taken'(=collected) from
the dioceses under Gardar Greenland. Ivar Bardson's voyage took several
years, as did the other known collector's voyages when Greenland and Vinland
was on the agenda. Latest documented collection was from 1500's(!) btw.

Fact is that the silvered coconut bowl came from the tithes collected in
Vinland North America. Not Greenland. Not Iceland nor anywhere else in the
Old World.

Inger, you need to demonstrate this to be the case and get it accepted by
others before you can claim it to be a fact. I'll look through the
documents I'm being sent and see what I can find there, but of course they
aren't primary sources.

Doug

Doug,
contrary to you I have had the pleasure to receive Prime sources in the
matter. I have had it as for my research, not to publish it in full nor to
send it on.
The texts you have had are written by scholars who had same access as I
have.
You better accept it no matter what you belive. The documents are wellknown
in Catholic circles.
I am not the one who needs to put proof forward. They have been known for
the last 740 years. Well known. That those who aren't scholars of History
and haven't had Religion as one of their minor subjects don't know of them
doesn't change a bit.

Inger E



"Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet
...
On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 19:44:19 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:

Tom,
your questioning is a strawman-alike questioníng. Now I happen to know
which
Indian tribe that mined the silver,
for that an for the silver in Icelandic artifacts. That doesn't alter
the
simple fact that Ivar Bardson on travelling the voyage for collecting
the
Tiundetaka(yes that was then name for the tithes 'taken'(=collected)
from
the dioceses under Gardar Greenland. Ivar Bardson's voyage took several
years, as did the other known collector's voyages when Greenland and
Vinland
was on the agenda. Latest documented collection was from 1500's(!) btw.

Fact is that the silvered coconut bowl came from the tithes collected in
Vinland North America. Not Greenland. Not Iceland nor anywhere else in
the
Old World.

Inger, you need to demonstrate this to be the case and get it accepted by
others before you can claim it to be a fact. I'll look through the
documents I'm being sent and see what I can find there, but of course they
aren't primary sources.

Doug

On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 22:15:54 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:

Doug,
contrary to you I have had the pleasure to receive Prime sources in the
matter. I have had it as for my research, not to publish it in full nor to
send it on.
The texts you have had are written by scholars who had same access as I
have.
You better accept it no matter what you belive. The documents are wellknown
in Catholic circles.
I am not the one who needs to put proof forward. They have been known for
the last 740 years. Well known. That those who aren't scholars of History
and haven't had Religion as one of their minor subjects don't know of them
doesn't change a bit.

Things that are well known are, well, well known. If they are well known,
then a lot of people know about them. Which means that scholars of history
who write about those subjects will know these well known facts.

But evidently they don't, so then it can't be well known. Or can you point
me to something by a recognised scholar who backs your claims?

Doug


Inger E

"Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet
...
On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 19:44:19 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:

Tom,
your questioning is a strawman-alike questioníng. Now I happen to know
which
Indian tribe that mined the silver,
for that an for the silver in Icelandic artifacts. That doesn't alter
the
simple fact that Ivar Bardson on travelling the voyage for collecting
the
Tiundetaka(yes that was then name for the tithes 'taken'(=collected)
from
the dioceses under Gardar Greenland. Ivar Bardson's voyage took several
years, as did the other known collector's voyages when Greenland and
Vinland
was on the agenda. Latest documented collection was from 1500's(!) btw.

Fact is that the silvered coconut bowl came from the tithes collected in
Vinland North America. Not Greenland. Not Iceland nor anywhere else in
the
Old World.

Inger, you need to demonstrate this to be the case and get it accepted by
others before you can claim it to be a fact. I'll look through the
documents I'm being sent and see what I can find there, but of course they
aren't primary sources.

Doug

Inger E Johansson wrote:

Tom,
your questioning is a strawman-alike questioníng. Now I happen to know which
Indian tribe that mined the silver,
for that an for the silver in Icelandic artifacts. That doesn't alter the
simple fact that Ivar Bardson on travelling the voyage for collecting the
Tiundetaka(yes that was then name for the tithes 'taken'(=collected) from
the dioceses under Gardar Greenland. Ivar Bardson's voyage took several
years, as did the other known collector's voyages when Greenland and Vinland
was on the agenda. Latest documented collection was from 1500's(!) btw.

Fact is that the silvered coconut bowl came from the tithes collected in
Vinland North America. Not Greenland. Not Iceland nor anywhere else in the
Old World.

You better try to live with that instead of trying to find 'what if'
scenarios. Such doesn't alter the case at all.

Inger E


Inger,

So you don't have any evidence that the bowl was made in
Vinland. You have a 'what-if' about silver from the New World;
you have a 'what-if' about coconuts from North America. But you
haven't put that together to make a proof of your thesis.

In science, we pose all conceivable options to explain an issue
under scrutiny. Then we test each option to see how it fits the
facts. You haven't given me any reason to think that the bowl
was fabricated in the New World, other than that it turned up in
Norway as part of a collection of tithes from a certain bishopric.

Your mysterious and unverifiable reference to Indian silver
mining has no value in this discussion unless it can be: (1)
established to have occurred at a particular time and place; and
(2) analysis of the silver in the subject cup shows it to have
originated from that mine. Until that time, your argument is a
big 'what-if'.

OTOH, we do know that a number of these bowls were floating
around Europe at the relevant time, and that they were sometimes
considered high-status items. We know that there was both
immigration to Greenland, and also trade between Greenland and
ports east of Greenland. We know that the conservative
Greenlanders maintained customs, dress and technology from their
home country.

If a bowl of a type found in Europe turns up in tithes from a
bishopric that includes Greenland and, at least nominally,
Vinland, _and_ the provenance of that bowl cannot be
demonstrated to interested folk to have been from west of
Iceland, then it is proper to continue to ask the question
'could it have come originally from Europe?'

Do you have any information that you can and will share with us
to support your assertion (that's all it is, Inger) about it
being made in the New World?

Tom McDonald

Inger E Johansson wrote:

"t(nospam)kavanagh" skrev i meddelandet
...
Inger E Johansson wrote:

Tom,
your questioning is a strawman-alike questioníng. Now I happen to know
which
Indian tribe that mined the silver,
for that an for the silver in Icelandic artifacts.

OK, which one?

If all goes well you will be hearing it from their representant same as he
told me. When ? Time isn't essential truth is.

In the case of Usenet, timely answers are as essential as truthful ones.

Don't you agree?

When did you stop beating your daughter?

tk

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 03:57:26 GMT, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Doug Weller wrote:

snip

I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were among
the items Ivar Bardson delivered from Vinland as part of the tithes from
Vinland. It may take some time to put all the lines from Stavanger to Rome
together here. Seems as if it might have been sold in Flandern but I really
hope not. More as soon as I have followed that one up.


Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this?

Doug

The Vikings were well known to trade goods with the people of Turkey.
They came down the rivers in Russia.

Coconuts last a long time and likely were stores on long trips once traded for.

Yes, but I don't think they had coconut palms in the Middle East back
then. Just date palms.

Well a quick check reveals that they were available in Ceylon earlier
than that (introduced about 100 BC, according to
http://www.qub.ac.uk/bb/provan/pdf/2001c.pdf ) so the Arabs could have
brought some within the Viking range. They'd have been an expensive
curiousity more likely than an article of commerce, though. Carried.
overland, they don't last nearly as well as dates, raisins or rice,
all of which give better value for weight or volume.

Al Moore

Inger E Johansson wrote:

Martin H,
if you have Viking blood in you is irrelevant to the fact that the valuble
coconut bowl only was one of two known coming from the New World in Pre
Columbian days.
Or do you believe your proven(?) Viking genes make a difference on that
fact?

Inger E


I suspect the coconut might be some off a tree or less that floated north
on the great Gulf stream that flows north from areas that Coconuts grow
past Iceland and Greenland and France and .... back home again.

This is like the shoes and balls that float around the pacific being released
by a heavy storm upon a ship.

Consider the storms that smash into the Atlantic islands, and the U.S. that could
make this viable.

All it takes is one creative mind. Then one is done.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Inger E Johansson wrote:

Martin H,
so now your making fun of the Catholic Church.
Wouldn't you be better off accepting that Ivar Bardson did deliever the Bowl
in 1364.
Does that fact hurt your pet-horses?

Inger E


That is what you say. Not I.

I don't abide by that Church - so it isn't here or there by me.

I don't think good logic is being used in this and to much denial going on.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life AFS member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:

Inger E Johansson wrote:

Martin H,
if you have Viking blood in you is irrelevant to the fact that the valuble
coconut bowl only was one of two known coming from the New World in Pre
Columbian days.
Or do you believe your proven(?) Viking genes make a difference on that
fact?

Inger E


I suspect the coconut might be some off a tree or less that floated north
on the great Gulf stream that flows north from areas that Coconuts grow
past Iceland and Greenland and France and .... back home again.

This is like the shoes and balls that float around the pacific being
released by a heavy storm upon a ship.

Consider the storms that smash into the Atlantic islands, and the U.S.
that could make this viable.

All it takes is one creative mind. Then one is done.

Martin

It might have been carried by two African swallows, gripping the husk in
their feet...
--
John S Wilkins PhD - www.wilkins.id.au
a little emptier, a little spent
as always by that quiver in the self,
subjugated, yes, and obedient. -- Seamus Heaney

Martin H,
if the coconut was from the locals at that time along Texas shore or if it
was from the Caribian or elsewhere is of NO IMPORTANCE what so ever.
Neither is it important if it was a Viking who before 1050 AD(end of Viking
Age) brought it to Greenland or if it was the Norse living in Norumbega(I
guess that you all by now at least have heard that the correct location was
found and verified 30 years ago no matter that journals didn't dare print
it).

The only important facts regarding the silvered coconut bowl FROM VINLAND!!!
Is the silver and where the tithes was payed - in Vinland North America.

make no mistake about that, it's confirmed in documents of which among other
Thor Heijerdahl spoke after having read them short after 2000 AD but the
papers have been known for 740 years and several scholars wrote about them
up to a month before WWII.

Inger E

Martin,
who is denial? Not I nor the Vatican.
Actually I had a mail 10 month ago from a representative of the Catholic
Church in Scandinavia who asked me to verify that I had knowledge of same
documents as they had. I had.

Inger E

John,
I guess you missed the two essential points:
a) the silvered coconut bowl was SILVERED
b) it was collected by Ivar Bardson in the Vinland dioceses in North America
which was one of the two dioceses in NA under Gardar.
not to mention the simple facts that several scholars have written from and
discussed the Vatican documents and that one of the latest to do so was Thor
Heijerdahl after having read them in the Vatican some years ago.

I myself got my first information about the papers in 1966.

Inger E
"John Wilkins" skrev i meddelandet
u...
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:

Inger E Johansson wrote:

Martin H,
if you have Viking blood in you is irrelevant to the fact that the
valuble
coconut bowl only was one of two known coming from the New World in
Pre
Columbian days.
Or do you believe your proven(?) Viking genes make a difference on
that
fact?

Inger E


I suspect the coconut might be some off a tree or less that floated
north
on the great Gulf stream that flows north from areas that Coconuts grow
past Iceland and Greenland and France and .... back home again.

This is like the shoes and balls that float around the pacific being
released by a heavy storm upon a ship.

Consider the storms that smash into the Atlantic islands, and the U.S.
that could make this viable.

All it takes is one creative mind. Then one is done.

Martin

It might have been carried by two African swallows, gripping the husk in
their feet...
--
John S Wilkins PhD - www.wilkins.id.au
a little emptier, a little spent
as always by that quiver in the self,
subjugated, yes, and obedient. -- Seamus Heaney

Alan and other.
It's of no importance what so ever if the Vikings(up to 1050 AD btw) had or
hadn't contact with coconuts in Eastern Europe.
Accept facts:
* A silvered coconut bowl was collected by Ivar Bardson in Vinland North
America in 1360's as part of the Tiundetaka(the Greenlanders' name for the
tithes from the dioceses under Gardar See.
*It's one of two known silvered coconut bowl from NA.
* The silvered coconut bowl is documented by Pope's Cardinal to have been
delivered by hand of Ivar Bardson to the Collector in Stavanger. The
Cardinal was present.

There is no way you can flee from this. It's been known by the Papal Church
for 740 years.

Inger E



"Alan Moore" skrev i meddelandet
...
On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 03:57:26 GMT, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Doug Weller wrote:

snip

I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were
among
the items Ivar Bardson delivered from Vinland as part of the tithes
from
Vinland. It may take some time to put all the lines from Stavanger to
Rome
together here. Seems as if it might have been sold in Flandern but I
really
hope not. More as soon as I have followed that one up.


Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this?

Doug

The Vikings were well known to trade goods with the people of Turkey.
They came down the rivers in Russia.

Coconuts last a long time and likely were stores on long trips once
traded for.

Yes, but I don't think they had coconut palms in the Middle East back
then. Just date palms.

Well a quick check reveals that they were available in Ceylon earlier
than that (introduced about 100 BC, according to
http://www.qub.ac.uk/bb/provan/pdf/2001c.pdf ) so the Arabs could have
brought some within the Viking range. They'd have been an expensive
curiousity more likely than an article of commerce, though. Carried.
overland, they don't last nearly as well as dates, raisins or rice,
all of which give better value for weight or volume.

Al Moore

"t(nospam)kavanagh" skrev i meddelandet
...
Inger E Johansson wrote:

"t(nospam)kavanagh" skrev i meddelandet
...
Inger E Johansson wrote:

Tom,
your questioning is a strawman-alike questioníng. Now I happen to
know
which
Indian tribe that mined the silver,
for that an for the silver in Icelandic artifacts.

OK, which one?

If all goes well you will be hearing it from their representant same as
he
told me. When ? Time isn't essential truth is.

In the case of Usenet, timely answers are as essential as truthful ones.

I don't think that time is essential because while Usenet is a good tool it
definitely hasn't any Official status.

Don't you agree?

When did you stop beating your daughter?

Never done so. Don't know if you had that experience because why else would
you ask that question. Idiom or not.

Inger E

tk

"Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet
.. .
On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 22:15:54 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:

Doug,
contrary to you I have had the pleasure to receive Prime sources in the
matter. I have had it as for my research, not to publish it in full nor
to
send it on.
The texts you have had are written by scholars who had same access as I
have.
You better accept it no matter what you belive. The documents are
wellknown
in Catholic circles.
I am not the one who needs to put proof forward. They have been known
for
the last 740 years. Well known. That those who aren't scholars of
History
and haven't had Religion as one of their minor subjects don't know of
them
doesn't change a bit.

Things that are well known are, well, well known. If they are well known,
then a lot of people know about them. Which means that scholars of history
who write about those subjects will know these well known facts.

Oh Doug,
that scholars in UK might not know about them after 1939, not at all
surprising. That it wasn't known in NA is a lie. You have yourself got at
least one file from Göran showing that to be wrong.

But evidently they don't, so then it can't be well known. Or can you point
me to something by a recognised scholar who backs your claims?

I take it that you haven't understood a word? You have had files from one
very 'recognised' scholar! You said you were to read what he sent. You
haven't taken yourself time to do so and analyze it. Premisses needed and
Premisses sufficient. It takes more than an hour or two you know.

What's most surprising is that you also missed or dismissed Thor Heijerdahl
when he spoke about the Vinland tithes documents he seen in the Vatican.
Bad Doug and definitely not schoalrly behavior from your side in this case!

Inger E

Apparently on date Wed, 09 Jun 2004 06:26:35 GMT, "Inger E Johansson"
said:

discussed the Vatican documents and that one of the latest to do so was Thor
Heijerdahl after having read them in the Vatican some years ago.

Ah, I see the "secret evidence" was all known about by one of the great
self-publicists who wrote books rather than studying them. If Heyerdhal was
involved, it must be hookie.

"t(nospam)kavanagh" says in
:

Don't you agree?

When did you stop beating your daughter?

Ouch!

--
Philip
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Mol. Anth. Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DNAanthro/
Mol. Evol. Hominids http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/
Evol. of Xchrom.
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/xlinked.htm
Pal. Anth. Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Paleoanthro/
Sci. Arch. Aux
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sciarchauxilliary/

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 06:37:57 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:

"Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet
.. .
On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 22:15:54 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:

Doug,
contrary to you I have had the pleasure to receive Prime sources in the
matter. I have had it as for my research, not to publish it in full nor
to
send it on.
The texts you have had are written by scholars who had same access as I
have.
You better accept it no matter what you belive. The documents are
wellknown
in Catholic circles.
I am not the one who needs to put proof forward. They have been known
for
the last 740 years. Well known. That those who aren't scholars of
History
and haven't had Religion as one of their minor subjects don't know of
them
doesn't change a bit.

Things that are well known are, well, well known. If they are well known,
then a lot of people know about them. Which means that scholars of history
who write about those subjects will know these well known facts.

Oh Doug,
that scholars in UK might not know about them after 1939, not at all
surprising. That it wasn't known in NA is a lie.

Where do I mention North America? But I'm not sure I know what you mean.
Are you claiming that recognised scholars in North America, today, back
your claim?


You have yourself got at
least one file from Göran showing that to be wrong.

None of the files I have have any evidence for contemporary scholarship.
They have lots of evidence for what people thought over a hundred years
ago. Can you be specific about which file you are referring to?


But evidently they don't, so then it can't be well known. Or can you point
me to something by a recognised scholar who backs your claims?

I take it that you haven't understood a word? You have had files from one
very 'recognised' scholar!

I have files from a very recognised scholar, that is true. Are you saying
that he backs your claim? Or do you really mean that you think the files
back your claim?

You said you were to read what he sent. You
haven't taken yourself time to do so and analyze it. Premisses needed and
Premisses sufficient. It takes more than an hour or two you know.

But I'm not asking about what people thought a hundred years ago, I am
asking about scholarly opinion today. The scholar who sent me those files,
for instance, what does he think?


What's most surprising is that you also missed or dismissed Thor Heijerdahl
when he spoke about the Vinland tithes documents he seen in the Vatican.
Bad Doug and definitely not schoalrly behavior from your side in this case!

Where can I read, in English, what Heyerdahl wrote? Does he mention the
bowl? In any case I don't consider Heyerdahl to have akribi.

Doug