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Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
Greetings, all,
This seems to be the latest word on the subject, in so far as the Native American Copper, and its chemical composition are concerned. _Determining Geologic Sources of Artifact Copper: Source Characterization Using Trace Element Patterns._ George (Rip) Rapp, James Allert, Vanda Vitali, Zhichuan Jing, and Eiler Henrickson. University Press of America, Lantham. 2000. xi + 156 pp., 24 figures, 41 tables, 2 appendices, glossary, index, bibliography. ISBN 0-7618-1688-7. It took an awful lot of time for our academic establishment to come thus far... Nobody seems to have been interested in this subject prior to this research team. No surprise, really, considering what else is going on in this field of American archaeology. Some quotes from the review below, "[This book] represents a monumental step forward in native copper sourcing studies. "... scientific attempts to source native copper using trace-element analysis have lagged behind... "Twenty-one native copper artifacts were sourced to seven fingerprinted deposits in the region." All the best, Yuri. ________________ _Determining Geologic Sources of Artifact Copper: Source Characterization Using Trace Element Patterns._ George (Rip) Rapp, et al. Reviewed by Kathy Ehrhardt, Department of Anthropology, New York University, New York, NY 10003 Compared to work with other archaeological materials, relatively few archaeometric provenance studies focus on, or have even dealt with, sourcing native North American artifact copper. For George Rapp and his team, this small volume represents the results of large-scale, long-term pioneering research into the applicability of trace-element analysis by neutron activation to doing just that. For over a quarter century, he and his colleagues, based at the Archaeometry Lab, University of Minnesota, Duluth, have been engaged in developing standardized methodological procedures and appropriate analytical protocols for using NAA to link, as unambiguously as possible through chemical fingerprinting, individual prehistoric copper artifacts with the particular ore sources from which the artifact raw material came. To date, they have amassed an impressive database of well over 1,000 trace element characterizations representing at least seventyfive potential ore sources from at least five major copper-bearing regions of North America. They have successfully fingerprinted seventeen sources. The team has also sampled over 200 native copper artifacts, and have proposed sources for twenty-one. As their research unfolded, the group published several "works in progress" reporting on various aspects of the problem. They now submit the current monograph as their most thoroughgoing, comprehensive treatment of the data to date. What they present here is a concise, substantive, readable chronicle of their efforts to streamline this specific technique for use on a particular class of raw material and on the prehistoric material culture industry associated with it. It represents a monumental step forward in native copper sourcing studies. Their research responds directly to longstanding questions archaeologists have asked concerning the sources of artifact copper in prehistory. Inquiry has centered on the native copper deposits of the Lake Superior region. Because of the geological significance of the deposits and the amount of prehistoric extraction and production activity that went on there, it has long been considered the "center" of indigenous copper working technology. However, throughout prehistory, major copper-using cultures have been found hundreds of miles from this source. Also, functional and decorative artifacts made of native copper have been recovered from burial and domestic contexts at sites in many parts of the eastern woodlands. These occurrences have served as important springboards for investigating such processes as the dynamics of long distance trade/exchange, technological and symbolic aspects of mortuary ceremonialism, and continuity in change in ancient metalworking practices. Archaeologists have been quite successful modeling these activities by finding patterns in the form, manufacturing style, and use, as well as the depositional context and distribution of copper artifacts. However, at the same time, many have assumed that the copper itself originated in the Lake Superior region. While some archaeologists have long been aware that understanding where the artifact copper actually came from would have enormous implications for validating, adjusting, or even redrawing these models, scientific attempts to source native copper using trace-element analysis have lagged behind investigations centering on other raw materials. This volume reflects these authors' attempts to remedy the situation. The thrust of their research here, however, is methodological and analytical, not interpretive in an archaeological sense. In the introduction, they provide only a brief historiographic overview of archaeological investigations into Great Lakes copper and into the question of copper sourcing. For this background, they refer the reader to their previous papers or to the references they cite in the text. They proceed directly to explaining how provenance studies using trace-element analysis can contribute to resolving these questions, and that their research goals center on working out a methodology with which to do so. Their strategy has involved locating, sampling, and characterizing accurately as many geological copper sources (ore bodies, mines, localities) as possible. Once copper sources were "fingerprinted" geochemically, characterizations of individual artifacts could potentially be "matched" to them. The researchers then introduce the reader to the myriad of complex geological, methodological, and analytical problems they faced as they made their way through their research program. These problems relate to three major aspects of the research: 1) understanding the geochemical nature and heterogeneity of the raw material as it occurs in nature and the potential changes it may have undergone as it was processed, used and abandoned in prehistory; 2) determining the appropriateness and limitations of the technique and the instrumentation as well as establishing optimal sampling and data collection procedures; and 3) applying the appropriate suite of statistical methods to achieve the most accurate characterizations results. They spend much of the rest of the book discussing these problems in greater depth and explaining how they handled them. In Chapters 2 and 3, they set the "material" stage by providing important geomorphological and geochemical descriptions of several types of copper deposits across North America. Although they tested over 75 separate deposits, they focus on the 17 which were ultimately fingerprinted. Importantly for provenance studies of native copper, the specific geochemical conditions under which copper is formed are reflected in its trace element makeup. As the authors note, however, understanding and accounting for within-source variation in trace element distribution is as important (and can be as problematic) as characterizing between-source variation. Chapters 4 and 5 cover how the INAA technique works and how specific sampling and data collection procedures were ultimately arrived at to ensure optimal irradiation results and accurate trace-element values. For instance, careful recording and sampling protocols were established to avoid problems and errors due to improper material sampling and specimen preparation. Irradiation parameters (flux, irradiation and decay times) and measurement protocols had to be worked out and kept relatively constant for each of the batches irradiated. When standards were changed at the reactor facility (U. of Wisconsin Nuclear Reactor) from use of an internal gold standard to a soil standard (Canadian Reference Soil Standard CCRMPSO4), inconsistencies in the growing database needed to be resolved. As a result, after 20 years of refining the technique, the authors reanalyzed 389 key source and artifact samples. The next three chapters (6-8) review the data analyses and results. First, the authors explain how the ten trace-elements (AG, Cr, Fe, Hg, Sb, Zn, As, Au, La, W) they used in their analysis were selected from the original 46 measured. They then walk readers through the analytical procedures used to classify and separate sources, providing clear and detailed rationale for each step. Easily decipherable tables and figures illustrate their arguments. The authors used a multivariate statistical approach, specifically predictive and descriptive discriminant analyses, to analyze the data. Seventeen deposits were represented in the data set. In all but two cases, the deposits were represented by at least ten samples, collected as carefully as possible from areas within a defined source. Their results demonstrated clear geographic distinction among source groupings, with the seven Lake Superior Region sources clustering together. Further separations within these seven deposits were also possible. Separations were based largely on relative trace-element contents. Particular elements or elements determined to be discriminating factors in both classification and separation of sources were identified. Finally, the researchers turn to sourcing native copper artifacts (Chapter 9). They use samples from three northeastern Minnesota prehistoric sites to demonstrate the process, focusing on the Lake Superior region as the potential source of the raw material. Twenty-one native copper artifacts were sourced to seven fingerprinted deposits in the region. Based on the differences in age of the artifacts, the authors posit that this information may well lead to new thoughts about locational change in intraregional exploitation of Great Lakes sources over time. The authors conclude by emphasizing that the database as presented is far from exhaustive. As they readily admit, many problems, including inter-laboratory comparability of results, could not be solved herein. However, numerous issues were indeed resolved, and the methodological and substantive contributions of this volume far outweigh its shortcomings. The authors have demonstrated (at least in the cases they presented here) that discrete geological sources of native copper can be distinguished reliably through trace-element analysis. In addition, the trace-element data (presented both in the text and in the appendices) and the methodology generated in this study provide researchers with a solid jumping-off place from which to further test and refine the methodology, expand the database, and extend native copper sourcing assignments. More importantly, with this research, Rapp and his colleagues have provided the opportunity for archaeologists to apply a new line of scientifically derived evidence to our old, as yet unresolved questions concerning prehistoric copper exploitation. While the authors make only limited attempts to do so, interested readers may go to Mary Ann Levine's work on sourcing native copper in the northeast by NAA for one good example. Reference Levine, Mary Ann. 1996. Native Copper, Hunter-Gatherers, and Northeastern Prehistory. Unpublished dissertation, Department of Anthropology, University of Massachusetts, Amherst. Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than to put out on the troubled seas of thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
Looking in my Bulletin 630 Bureau of Mines - Mineral facts and problems Us. Dept. interior.
Page 263 - Notes that the U.S. was world leader in production of copper from 1883 less 1934 when economic conditions adversely affected domestic production and Chile ranked first. Artifacts of hammered copper have been found among Chaldean remains dating back 4500 B.C. and objects of copper have been taken from graves in the Fayum of Egypt. Smelting began around 3800 B.C. Smelting of raw material around 3500 BC [ Iraq ] Romans mined copper in Britain. Evidence of the first use of copper in North America was discovered by archaeologists in pits on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and on Isle Royale in Lake Superior. There are thousands of pits on Isle Royale alone. The pits were excavated in mining and followed deposits of native copper from surface outcrops. Carbon dating of wood in the pits is 3,000 years old. These stopped operation around 1000BC and started again around 100-200 AD elsewhere. In 1709 copper from ore was produced in Simsbury , Conn Hope that gives a little more info. Martin - Wonderful book - I bought it many years ago and still like the data. -- Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message om...
Looking in my Bulletin 630 Bureau of Mines - Mineral facts and problems Us. Dept. interior. Page 263 - Notes that the U.S. was world leader in production of copper from 1883 less 1934 when economic conditions adversely affected domestic production and Chile ranked first. Artifacts of hammered copper have been found among Chaldean remains dating back 4500 B.C. and objects of copper have been taken from graves in the Fayum of Egypt. Smelting began around 3800 B.C. Smelting of raw material around 3500 BC [ Iraq ] Romans mined copper in Britain. Evidence of the first use of copper in North America was discovered by archaeologists in pits on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and on Isle Royale in Lake Superior. There are thousands of pits on Isle Royale alone. The pits were excavated in mining and followed deposits of native copper from surface outcrops. Carbon dating of wood in the pits is 3,000 years old. These stopped operation around 1000BC and started again around 100-200 AD elsewhere. In 1709 copper from ore was produced in Simsbury , Conn Hope that gives a little more info. Martin - Wonderful book - I bought it many years ago and still like the data. I knew somebody who was doing trace elemental analysis of Cu artifacts found in Apalachee mound areas of N. Florida using PIXE analysis back in 1978. If I remember correctly, the source seemed to be the Great Lakes region. |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Parallax" skrev i meddelandet om... "Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message om... Looking in my Bulletin 630 Bureau of Mines - Mineral facts and problems Us. Dept. interior. Page 263 - Notes that the U.S. was world leader in production of copper from 1883 less 1934 when economic conditions adversely affected domestic production and Chile ranked first. Artifacts of hammered copper have been found among Chaldean remains dating back 4500 B.C. and objects of copper have been taken from graves in the Fayum of Egypt. Smelting began around 3800 B.C. Smelting of raw material around 3500 BC [ Iraq ] Romans mined copper in Britain. Evidence of the first use of copper in North America was discovered by archaeologists in pits on the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and on Isle Royale in Lake Superior. There are thousands of pits on Isle Royale alone. The pits were excavated in mining and followed deposits of native copper from surface outcrops. Carbon dating of wood in the pits is 3,000 years old. These stopped operation around 1000BC and started again around 100-200 AD elsewhere. In 1709 copper from ore was produced in Simsbury , Conn Hope that gives a little more info. Martin - Wonderful book - I bought it many years ago and still like the data. I knew somebody who was doing trace elemental analysis of Cu artifacts found in Apalachee mound areas of N. Florida using PIXE analysis back in 1978. If I remember correctly, the source seemed to be the Great Lakes region. In an article which had good ref for almost everything I found a short sentence which had no ref at all to it. That short sentence claimed that Ancient(!) copper artifacts analysed from sites all over the world showed that the copper origin from the Great Lake region. If that's right or wrong I don't know since that one sentence wasn't possible to follow back to analyse-tests at all. What I would like to know is if anyone among the metallurgic specialist ever come accross copper artifacts where tests showed or at least pointed to Great Lake copper origin? Of course I plan to contact the scholar behind the article and before I have heard reason for his statement in this special case I will not write his name here. Might be that he in this sentence hasn't had as much as in all other cases to back the conclusion/assumption (what ever) up as good as the rest of the facts regarding Great Lake copper artifacts. Inger E |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
Inger E Johansson wrote: "Parallax" skrev i meddelandet om... [..] I knew somebody who was doing trace elemental analysis of Cu artifacts found in Apalachee mound areas of N. Florida using PIXE analysis back in 1978. If I remember correctly, the source seemed to be the Great Lakes region. In an article which had good ref for almost everything I found a short sentence which had no ref at all to it. That short sentence claimed that Ancient(!) copper artifacts analysed from sites all over the world showed that the copper origin from the Great Lake region. If that's right or wrong I don't know since that one sentence wasn't possible to follow back to analyse-tests at all. What I would like to know is if anyone among the metallurgic specialist ever come accross copper artifacts where tests showed or at least pointed to Great Lake copper origin? Inger, to my knowledge the copper I have seen analysed from "ancient" copper artefacts in Europe/Asia Minor show "local" sources - ie Europe, Eurasia and the like. [..] -- SIR - Philosopher unauthorised ----------------------------------------------------------------- The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is misled. ----------------------------------------------------------------- |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet ... Inger E Johansson wrote: "Parallax" skrev i meddelandet om... [..] I knew somebody who was doing trace elemental analysis of Cu artifacts found in Apalachee mound areas of N. Florida using PIXE analysis back in 1978. If I remember correctly, the source seemed to be the Great Lakes region. In an article which had good ref for almost everything I found a short sentence which had no ref at all to it. That short sentence claimed that Ancient(!) copper artifacts analysed from sites all over the world showed that the copper origin from the Great Lake region. If that's right or wrong I don't know since that one sentence wasn't possible to follow back to analyse-tests at all. What I would like to know is if anyone among the metallurgic specialist ever come accross copper artifacts where tests showed or at least pointed to Great Lake copper origin? Inger, to my knowledge the copper I have seen analysed from "ancient" copper artefacts in Europe/Asia Minor show "local" sources - ie Europe, Eurasia and the like. What about the copper, and also silver/gold, analysed from Icelandic sites? Inger E [..] -- SIR - Philosopher unauthorised ----------------------------------------------------------------- The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is misled. ----------------------------------------------------------------- |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ...
What about the copper, and also silver/gold, analysed from Icelandic sites? Yes, what about it ? Various copper and silver artifacts from have been found here - not sure about gold, though - I think gold items are extremely rare, but I don't have the reference work (Kuml og haugfé) here, so I can't check. As far as I know, only limited attmpts have been made to determine the origin of the metal, and I am not aware of any claim of any item being of American origin. If you know of any such thing, it would be extremely interesting, to say the least. |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
Fridrik,
look for private mail later today. Inger E "Fridrik Skulason" skrev i meddelandet om... "Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ... What about the copper, and also silver/gold, analysed from Icelandic sites? Yes, what about it ? Various copper and silver artifacts from have been found here - not sure about gold, though - I think gold items are extremely rare, but I don't have the reference work (Kuml og haugfé) here, so I can't check. As far as I know, only limited attmpts have been made to determine the origin of the metal, and I am not aware of any claim of any item being of American origin. If you know of any such thing, it would be extremely interesting, to say the least. |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
Inger E Johansson wrote: "Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet ... Inger E Johansson wrote: "Parallax" skrev i meddelandet om... [..] I knew somebody who was doing trace elemental analysis of Cu artifacts found in Apalachee mound areas of N. Florida using PIXE analysis back in 1978. If I remember correctly, the source seemed to be the Great Lakes region. In an article which had good ref for almost everything I found a short sentence which had no ref at all to it. That short sentence claimed that Ancient(!) copper artifacts analysed from sites all over the world showed that the copper origin from the Great Lake region. If that's right or wrong I don't know since that one sentence wasn't possible to follow back to analyse-tests at all. What I would like to know is if anyone among the metallurgic specialist ever come accross copper artifacts where tests showed or at least pointed to Great Lake copper origin? Inger, to my knowledge the copper I have seen analysed from "ancient" copper artefacts in Europe/Asia Minor show "local" sources - ie Europe, Eurasia and the like. What about the copper, and also silver/gold, analysed from Icelandic sites? I do know of copper artefacts found in Greenland, but haven't seen any analysis done on them. -- SIR - Philosopher unauthorised ----------------------------------------------------------------- The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is misled. ----------------------------------------------------------------- |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
Inger E Johansson wrote: "Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet ... Inger E Johansson wrote: "Parallax" skrev i meddelandet om... [..] I knew somebody who was doing trace elemental analysis of Cu artifacts found in Apalachee mound areas of N. Florida using PIXE analysis back in 1978. If I remember correctly, the source seemed to be the Great Lakes region. In an article which had good ref for almost everything I found a short sentence which had no ref at all to it. That short sentence claimed that Ancient(!) copper artifacts analysed from sites all over the world showed that the copper origin from the Great Lake region. If that's right or wrong I don't know since that one sentence wasn't possible to follow back to analyse-tests at all. What I would like to know is if anyone among the metallurgic specialist ever come accross copper artifacts where tests showed or at least pointed to Great Lake copper origin? Inger, to my knowledge the copper I have seen analysed from "ancient" copper artefacts in Europe/Asia Minor show "local" sources - ie Europe, Eurasia and the like. What about the copper, and also silver/gold, analysed from Icelandic sites? Sorry read "Iceland" as "Greenland" before. The copper (or bronze) and silver items I have seen from Iceland have been imported from the old world. -- SIR - Philosopher unauthorised ----------------------------------------------------------------- The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is misled. ----------------------------------------------------------------- |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet ... Inger E Johansson wrote: "Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet ... Inger E Johansson wrote: "Parallax" skrev i meddelandet om... [..] I knew somebody who was doing trace elemental analysis of Cu artifacts found in Apalachee mound areas of N. Florida using PIXE analysis back in 1978. If I remember correctly, the source seemed to be the Great Lakes region. In an article which had good ref for almost everything I found a short sentence which had no ref at all to it. That short sentence claimed that Ancient(!) copper artifacts analysed from sites all over the world showed that the copper origin from the Great Lake region. If that's right or wrong I don't know since that one sentence wasn't possible to follow back to analyse-tests at all. What I would like to know is if anyone among the metallurgic specialist ever come accross copper artifacts where tests showed or at least pointed to Great Lake copper origin? Inger, to my knowledge the copper I have seen analysed from "ancient" copper artefacts in Europe/Asia Minor show "local" sources - ie Europe, Eurasia and the like. What about the copper, and also silver/gold, analysed from Icelandic sites? I do know of copper artefacts found in Greenland, but haven't seen any analysis done on them. I read four or five years ago that some of the artefacts were to be sent to Denmark for analyzing. Haven't been able to figure out which institute or university that was to perform the tests. Those I know in Roskilde and Copenhagen have no clue about it. Do you have any contacts to ask? Inger E -- SIR - Philosopher unauthorised ----------------------------------------------------------------- The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is misled. ----------------------------------------------------------------- |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet ... Inger E Johansson wrote: "Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet ... Inger E Johansson wrote: "Parallax" skrev i meddelandet om... [..] I knew somebody who was doing trace elemental analysis of Cu artifacts found in Apalachee mound areas of N. Florida using PIXE analysis back in 1978. If I remember correctly, the source seemed to be the Great Lakes region. In an article which had good ref for almost everything I found a short sentence which had no ref at all to it. That short sentence claimed that Ancient(!) copper artifacts analysed from sites all over the world showed that the copper origin from the Great Lake region. If that's right or wrong I don't know since that one sentence wasn't possible to follow back to analyse-tests at all. What I would like to know is if anyone among the metallurgic specialist ever come accross copper artifacts where tests showed or at least pointed to Great Lake copper origin? Inger, to my knowledge the copper I have seen analysed from "ancient" copper artefacts in Europe/Asia Minor show "local" sources - ie Europe, Eurasia and the like. What about the copper, and also silver/gold, analysed from Icelandic sites? Sorry read "Iceland" as "Greenland" before. The copper (or bronze) and silver items I have seen from Iceland have been imported from the old world. export of silver on at least one ship F R O M Iceland in 1430's? Definitely not from the Old World. Inger E -- SIR - Philosopher unauthorised ----------------------------------------------------------------- The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is misled. ----------------------------------------------------------------- |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 05:59:22 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:
[SNIP] export of silver on at least one ship F R O M Iceland in 1430's? Definitely not from the Old World. Please elucidate. Doug |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet ... On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 05:59:22 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote: [SNIP] export of silver on at least one ship F R O M Iceland in 1430's? Definitely not from the Old World. Please elucidate. The first information with ref in this case was sent short after we moved to Gothenburg 6 years ago. Next information to be will be in the summery part 2 which I am trying to finish. As usual when you are dealing with much information it's a question of selecting what shall and what better not be in the summery. The later case happens when the text needed for a certain 'detail' have to be more than 1 A4 page, then it isn't a summery anymore. It's these chapters I try to 'get into' summery part 2. How? I am trying to use an imaginary shoehorn :-) what else... Chapter 9 Greenland in early non-Saga sources Chapter 10 Greenland's early settlers up to 1121 AD. Chapter 11 Scandinavia's Greenland History 1100-1387 Chapter 12 Greenland from 1121 - 1387 AD Chapter 12 North America's artifacts dated to 1000 - 1500 AD Chapter 13 Scandinavia's History 1387 - 1551 Chapter 14 Greenland from 1387 - 1551 AD Chapter 15 Maps of North America and Greenland up to 1600 Chapter 16 Danckert's map with Dania Nova on Chapter 17 Norse artifacts found in the Arctic Inger E Doug |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
Inger E Johansson wrote: "Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet ... Inger E Johansson wrote: "Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet ... Inger E Johansson wrote: "Parallax" skrev i meddelandet om... [..] I knew somebody who was doing trace elemental analysis of Cu artifacts found in Apalachee mound areas of N. Florida using PIXE analysis back in 1978. If I remember correctly, the source seemed to be the Great Lakes region. In an article which had good ref for almost everything I found a short sentence which had no ref at all to it. That short sentence claimed that Ancient(!) copper artifacts analysed from sites all over the world showed that the copper origin from the Great Lake region. If that's right or wrong I don't know since that one sentence wasn't possible to follow back to analyse-tests at all. What I would like to know is if anyone among the metallurgic specialist ever come accross copper artifacts where tests showed or at least pointed to Great Lake copper origin? Inger, to my knowledge the copper I have seen analysed from "ancient" copper artefacts in Europe/Asia Minor show "local" sources - ie Europe, Eurasia and the like. What about the copper, and also silver/gold, analysed from Icelandic sites? I do know of copper artefacts found in Greenland, but haven't seen any analysis done on them. I read four or five years ago that some of the artefacts were to be sent to Denmark for analyzing. Haven't been able to figure out which institute or university that was to perform the tests. Those I know in Roskilde and Copenhagen have no clue about it. Do you have any contacts to ask? From memory I think the artefacts I read about were in a museum in USA or Canada - which I can't recall as it was something I read in passing, while looking for something else. But you might find these interesting: http://www.meteor.co.nz/may96_2.html "While searching for the northwest passage in 1818, John Ross discovered a previously unknown band of Eskimo on the northwest coast of Greenland using a variety of cutting tools with blades of meteoritic iron. That same year a `plate' of iron from Ohio was the first of a series of meteoritical iron artifacts found on Hopewellian (200 B.C. - A.D. 500) sites in the eastern United States." "Woodworking tools such as celts, axes, and adzes were made from the iron but apparently never used. In Ohio, a bear canine tooth was found with a small ball of iron set into it, and chisels designed to mimic beaver teeth have also been unearthed. Copper ear spools with an overlay of iron foil have been found on sites in Illinois, Ohio, Georgia, and Florida. At the Havana site in Illinois, 22 oxidized iron beads were discovered that formed a necklace with over 1000 shell and pearl beads." http://www.sila.dk/History/Dorset/La...continued.html Exchange and trade of Late Dorset " A variety of finds from the High Arctic sites strongly indicates that a substantial exchange network covered the region. Meteoric iron from Northwest Greenland spread a least as far west as Bathurst Island and Little Cornwallis Island and south to the northern part of Hudson Bay. From the areas around Coppermine River, nuggets of natural copper were dispersed throughout the eastern Arctic. Various kinds of lithic materials seem to have been part of the exchange network as well." "Sherd of a Norse iron kettle found in a 13th century Late Dorset winter dwelling." http://www.collectionscanada.ca/2/16/h16-4108-e.html "The earliest known Thule sites in the area contain metals from yet another source: smelted iron, copper and bronze from the Norse colonies established during the previous century in southwestern Greenland. Throughout the subsequent history of the Thule occupation of Arctic Canada, stone tools were almost totally replaced by small points and blades made from smelted metal, iron from the meteorites of Cape York in northwestern Greenland and native copper from the deposits in the Coppermine River region of the central Arctic." http://www.civilization.ca/archeo/nadlok/nadloke.html -- SIR - Philosopher unauthorised ----------------------------------------------------------------- The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is misled. ----------------------------------------------------------------- |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ...
export of silver on at least one ship F R O M Iceland in 1430's? Definitely not from the Old World. Why not ? Someone could have found some silver buried in pre-christian times, or perhaps the silver just arrived in Iceland through trade - and was eventually traded back. -frisk |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Fridrik Skulason" skrev i meddelandet m... "Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ... export of silver on at least one ship F R O M Iceland in 1430's? Definitely not from the Old World. Why not ? It was to be delivered to the Old World! Someone could have found some silver buried in pre-christian times, or perhaps the silver just arrived in Iceland through trade - and was eventually traded back. Fridrik, please write a line to Eric S. I am sure he thinks that you can be trusted with confidential Icelandic information. Inger E -frisk |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 13:37:00 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:
"Fridrik Skulason" skrev i meddelandet m... "Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ... export of silver on at least one ship F R O M Iceland in 1430's? Definitely not from the Old World. Why not ? It was to be delivered to the Old World! Someone could have found some silver buried in pre-christian times, or perhaps the silver just arrived in Iceland through trade - and was eventually traded back. Fridrik, please write a line to Eric S. I am sure he thinks that you can be trusted with confidential Icelandic information. Eric, why is this confidential? I am tired of all this secrecy. Doug |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ...
It was to be delivered to the Old World! And? It is still most likely that in was also from there in the first place. Icelanders did receive quite a lot of silver coins through trading, and much of that ended up in the hands of the church. The Vatican tried to get its greedy hands on as much of it as it could, so most of the silver was shipped back out of the country anyhow. I'm sorry, but I see no basis whatsoever for speculating that the silver from Iceland might be of New World origin. -frisk |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
Fridrik,
I will not discuss here how I know that it origined from Canada. I do. It's one of the things I would like to discuss with you later. If you look in your mailbox you will find a mail with a file. The file I promised to send you before I used most of it in the group. Inger E "Fridrik Skulason" skrev i meddelandet om... "Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ... It was to be delivered to the Old World! And? It is still most likely that in was also from there in the first place. Icelanders did receive quite a lot of silver coins through trading, and much of that ended up in the hands of the church. The Vatican tried to get its greedy hands on as much of it as it could, so most of the silver was shipped back out of the country anyhow. I'm sorry, but I see no basis whatsoever for speculating that the silver from Iceland might be of New World origin. -frisk |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
Doug Weller wrote in message .. .
On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 13:37:00 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote: "Fridrik Skulason" skrev i meddelandet m... "Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ... export of silver on at least one ship F R O M Iceland in 1430's? Definitely not from the Old World. Why not ? It was to be delivered to the Old World! Someone could have found some silver buried in pre-christian times, or perhaps the silver just arrived in Iceland through trade - and was eventually traded back. Fridrik, please write a line to Eric S. I am sure he thinks that you can be trusted with confidential Icelandic information. Eric, why is this confidential? I am tired of all this secrecy. Its the old childish playground 'I know something you don't know and I'm going to tell all the people who like me' Sad but it's one of the problems of the 'agest' |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Doug Weller" wrote in message
... On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 13:37:00 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote: "Fridrik Skulason" skrev i meddelandet m... "Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ... export of silver on at least one ship F R O M Iceland in 1430's? Definitely not from the Old World. Why not ? It was to be delivered to the Old World! Someone could have found some silver buried in pre-christian times, or perhaps the silver just arrived in Iceland through trade - and was eventually traded back. Fridrik, please write a line to Eric S. I am sure he thinks that you can be trusted with confidential Icelandic information. Eric, why is this confidential? It is confidential because Inger made it up and it is therefore her intellectual property. (I'll bet that not may people ever thought they'd see "Inger" and "intellectual" in the same sentence). I am tired of all this secrecy. Doug -- John Byrne www.iol.ie/~archaeology To email me use the feedback form on the website. The address attached to this post is just a spam trap. |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 14:59:21 +0100, Doug Weller
wrote: On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 13:37:00 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote: "Fridrik Skulason" skrev i meddelandet m... "Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ... export of silver on at least one ship F R O M Iceland in 1430's? Definitely not from the Old World. Why not ? It was to be delivered to the Old World! Someone could have found some silver buried in pre-christian times, or perhaps the silver just arrived in Iceland through trade - and was eventually traded back. Fridrik, please write a line to Eric S. I am sure he thinks that you can be trusted with confidential Icelandic information. Eric, why is this confidential? Inger is referring to a source of which I made recent mentoin in Message-ID: My source is confident of the conclusoin but I have no real idea why. I have a document written in Danish which might throw some light on the subject but I am not able to eother read it or give a copy to someone who can. Most frustrating. I am tired of all this secrecy. I live with it every day. I have written many long technical reports of which I am not able to say a word. I am aware there are others who subscribe to sci.archaeology who are in the same situation, if not necessarily for the same reasons. Eric Stevens |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
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Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Eric Stevens" skrev i meddelandet ... On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 14:59:21 +0100, Doug Weller wrote: On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 13:37:00 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote: "Fridrik Skulason" skrev i meddelandet m... "Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ... export of silver on at least one ship F R O M Iceland in 1430's? Definitely not from the Old World. Why not ? It was to be delivered to the Old World! Someone could have found some silver buried in pre-christian times, or perhaps the silver just arrived in Iceland through trade - and was eventually traded back. Fridrik, please write a line to Eric S. I am sure he thinks that you can be trusted with confidential Icelandic information. Eric, why is this confidential? Inger is referring to a source of which I made recent mentoin in Message-ID: actually not entirely Eric, you happened to present me with information same day as I was 'hunting' the Icelandic Annals for a detail re. a person mentioned in a diploma from 1430 as having had his silvership(traded Silver from Iceland to Orkney and Lynn) hijacked by English pirates short after leaving Reykjavik. I linked that person, due to some information in the diploma, to other diplomas among them that where King Erik call for the English King to settle the claims due to English fisherman fishing in Icelandic and Greenlandic waters the last 20 years (410's on forward) and the English pirates who hijacked the Norse-Danish-Swedish King's merchandiser ships, including one of the Royal knarr btw. I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were among the items Ivar Bardson delivered from Vinland as part of the tithes from Vinland. It may take some time to put all the lines from Stavanger to Rome together here. Seems as if it might have been sold in Flandern but I really hope not. More as soon as I have followed that one up. My source is confident of the conclusoin but I have no real idea why. I have a document written in Danish which might throw some light on the subject but I am not able to eother read it or give a copy to someone who can. Most frustrating. I am tired of all this secrecy. I live with it every day. I have written many long technical reports of which I am not able to say a word. I am aware there are others who subscribe to sci.archaeology who are in the same situation, if not necessarily for the same reasons. Eric Stevens Inger E |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Eric Stevens" skrev i meddelandet ... On 5 Jun 2004 12:34:57 -0700, (Fridrik Skulason) wrote: "Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ... It was to be delivered to the Old World! And? It is still most likely that in was also from there in the first place. Icelanders did receive quite a lot of silver coins through trading, and much of that ended up in the hands of the church. The Vatican tried to get its greedy hands on as much of it as it could, so most of the silver was shipped back out of the country anyhow. I'm sorry, but I see no basis whatsoever for speculating that the silver from Iceland might be of New World origin. If my information is correct, it might not be just speculation. It's definitely not speculation. It's in contemporary documents which I am trying to link to events mentioned in the Icelandic Annals. I also have it directly from the Indian tribe who worked in the silver-mine that there was a trade. That part will be presented later. Working on details which links and proves the close contact between Greenlanders and Canadian Indians. Inger E Eric Stevens |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ...
Fridrik, I will not discuss here how I know that it origined from Canada. I do. It's one of the things I would like to discuss with you later. If you look in your mailbox you will find a mail with a file. The file I promised to send you before I used most of it in the group. Well, I did get a file from you, and sent back some brief comments on some of the things there - however, the file in question does not answer any questions regarding the origin of silver (or copper for that matter). -frisk |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
Eric Stevens wrote in message . ..
If my information is correct, it might not be just speculation. Well, that is just like saying "If my information is correct, the moon might be made of green cheese". I'm perfectly willing to listen to any convincing arguments, but the fact is that so far no evidence has been presented - some secret document you may or may not have just doens't count, sorry. -frisk |
Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 09:58:41 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:
actually not entirely Eric, you happened to present me with information same day as I was 'hunting' the Icelandic Annals for a detail re. a person mentioned in a diploma from 1430 as having had his silvership(traded Silver from Iceland to Orkney and Lynn) hijacked by English pirates short after leaving Reykjavik. I linked that person, due to some information in the diploma, to other diplomas among them that where King Erik call for the English King to settle the claims due to English fisherman fishing in Icelandic and Greenlandic waters the last 20 years (410's on forward) and the English pirates who hijacked the Norse-Danish-Swedish King's merchandiser ships, including one of the Royal knarr btw. This link: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/w...s/mnm_mt28.pdf is about medieval textiles, and says " Early in Icelandic history, when silver was plentiful but cloth was scarce, six ells of vađmál (the standard legal tender grade of 2/2 twill wool cloth) were worth one eyrir, or about 24.5 grams of silver (Hoffmann, 195). As the years went on, this number ballooned to 48 ells before stabilizing at about 45 ells around the year 1200 (Dennis et al., 21n, 269n)." http://insci14.ucsd.edu/~jablum/iceland.pdf which is about politics says there was precious little silver. So that's not very helpful. I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were among the items Ivar Bardson delivered from Vinland as part of the tithes from Vinland. It may take some time to put all the lines from Stavanger to Rome together here. Seems as if it might have been sold in Flandern but I really hope not. More as soon as I have followed that one up. Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this? Doug |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Fridrik Skulason" skrev i meddelandet om... "Inger E Johansson" wrote in message ... Fridrik, I will not discuss here how I know that it origined from Canada. I do. It's one of the things I would like to discuss with you later. If you look in your mailbox you will find a mail with a file. The file I promised to send you before I used most of it in the group. Well, I did get a file from you, and sent back some brief comments on some of the things there - however, the file in question does not answer any questions regarding the origin of silver (or copper for that matter). No it doesn't. You will have that either later today or tomorrow. I will take time tonight to look further into two other relating documents(from Denmark resp. Helsingborg) and I am not finished with the writing. Inger E -frisk |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Fridrik Skulason" skrev i meddelandet om... Eric Stevens wrote in message . .. If my information is correct, it might not be just speculation. Well, that is just like saying "If my information is correct, the moon might be made of green cheese". I'm perfectly willing to listen to any convincing arguments, but the fact is that so far no evidence has been presented - some secret document you may or may not have just doens't count, sorry. -frisk Eric, Fridrik is to be trusted no matter what. I guess you might ask your friend if he is willing to talk directly to Fridrik. If there is anything at all that doesn't hold in the secret document I am sure Fridrik will be the one to tell what more that needs to be done and how and if it's possible to get the information made public. Inger E |
Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
"Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet ... On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 09:58:41 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote: actually not entirely Eric, you happened to present me with information same day as I was 'hunting' the Icelandic Annals for a detail re. a person mentioned in a diploma from 1430 as having had his silvership(traded Silver from Iceland to Orkney and Lynn) hijacked by English pirates short after leaving Reykjavik. I linked that person, due to some information in the diploma, to other diplomas among them that where King Erik call for the English King to settle the claims due to English fisherman fishing in Icelandic and Greenlandic waters the last 20 years (410's on forward) and the English pirates who hijacked the Norse-Danish-Swedish King's merchandiser ships, including one of the Royal knarr btw. This link: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/w...s/mnm_mt28.pdf is about medieval textiles, and says " Early in Icelandic history, when silver was plentiful but cloth was scarce, six ells of vađmál (the standard legal tender grade of 2/2 twill wool cloth) were worth one eyrir, or about 24.5 grams of silver (Hoffmann, 195). As the years went on, this number ballooned to 48 ells before stabilizing at about 45 ells around the year 1200 (Dennis et al., 21n, 269n)." http://insci14.ucsd.edu/~jablum/iceland.pdf which is about politics says there was precious little silver. So that's not very helpful. I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were among the items Ivar Bardson delivered from Vinland as part of the tithes from Vinland. It may take some time to put all the lines from Stavanger to Rome together here. Seems as if it might have been sold in Flandern but I really hope not. More as soon as I have followed that one up. Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this? Doug, if you had followed the ref I sent regarding the 3 works dealing with the Papal document where Ivar Bardson's delivery of the tithes for Greenland and Vinland for the years 1354-1364, you would have read about it in one of them long ago. In other words - I have sent the ref. 5 times the last year, one of the others here has sent it with comments as well. So much for following up the references and quotes I send to the group .....:-) Inger E Doug |
Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland
Doug Weller wrote in message ...
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 09:58:41 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote: I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were among the items Ivar Bardson delivered from Vinland as part of the tithes from Vinland. It may take some time to put all the lines from Stavanger to Rome together here. Seems as if it might have been sold in Flandern but I really hope not. More as soon as I have followed that one up. Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this? Follow the online text link through http://www.trochos.plus.com/primesauce/sources.htm#46 to find the following quotation by Josef Fischer, among much other wisdom: "There is a twofold error in the statement that a valuable cup of Vinland masur wood is mentioned among the tithes of the diocese of Gardar dating from 1327. First, this (ciphus de nuce ultramarina) was not a part of the titles of the Vinland diocese of Gardar, but of Skara, a Swedish diocese; second this goblet was not of masur but of cocoanut." So isn't it odd that we are now presented with the story of a valuable coconut-bowl brought by Ivar Bardsson (decades after 1327) as part of the tithes from Vinland. "Liar" translates into Swedish as "lögnhals" or "lögnare"; I'll leave somebody more expert like Alan or Göran to supply a translation or idiomatic equivalent of "pants on fire". David B. |
Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 13:10:35 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:
"Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet ... On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 09:58:41 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote: actually not entirely Eric, you happened to present me with information same day as I was 'hunting' the Icelandic Annals for a detail re. a person mentioned in a diploma from 1430 as having had his silvership(traded Silver from Iceland to Orkney and Lynn) hijacked by English pirates short after leaving Reykjavik. I linked that person, due to some information in the diploma, to other diplomas among them that where King Erik call for the English King to settle the claims due to English fisherman fishing in Icelandic and Greenlandic waters the last 20 years (410's on forward) and the English pirates who hijacked the Norse-Danish-Swedish King's merchandiser ships, including one of the Royal knarr btw. This link: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/w...s/mnm_mt28.pdf is about medieval textiles, and says " Early in Icelandic history, when silver was plentiful but cloth was scarce, six ells of vađmál (the standard legal tender grade of 2/2 twill wool cloth) were worth one eyrir, or about 24.5 grams of silver (Hoffmann, 195). As the years went on, this number ballooned to 48 ells before stabilizing at about 45 ells around the year 1200 (Dennis et al., 21n, 269n)." http://insci14.ucsd.edu/~jablum/iceland.pdf which is about politics says there was precious little silver. So that's not very helpful. I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were among the items Ivar Bardson delivered from Vinland as part of the tithes from Vinland. It may take some time to put all the lines from Stavanger to Rome together here. Seems as if it might have been sold in Flandern but I really hope not. More as soon as I have followed that one up. Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this? Doug, if you had followed the ref I sent regarding the 3 works dealing with the Papal document where Ivar Bardson's delivery of the tithes for Greenland and Vinland for the years 1354-1364, you would have read about it in one of them long ago. In other words - I have sent the ref. 5 times the last year, one of the others here has sent it with comments as well. So much for following up the references and quotes I send to the group .....:-) Inger E http://groups.google.com/groups?q=in...num=3&filter=0 So searching on inger ivar tithes silver gives 3 hits, one of them the post in this thread, the other 2 don't have the word bowl in them. A search on Inger Ivar bowl doesn't turn up anything useful from Inter, but an old post by Eric does mention a bowl. discussing Pope Urban's map: "While the English geographer who wrote Inventio Fortunatae described and mapped the world from the North Pole down to about 54°, Pope Urban s map continues from 54° south along the east coast of America. It is tempting to think that these two maps, which were made at about the same time, were intended to be seen as two parts of one and the same map. The geographer didn't necessarily have to have visited all locations himself. As mentioned, he made instrument measurements based on oral information as well. Thirty-three years earlier the pope had received the silver-footed bowl made from a nut shell. It doesn t conclusively prove anything, but it does give reason to suspect that someone had been much farther south at some earlier point." Going back even further a post from Kaare Albert Lie "It is very reasonable to think that if influence went one way, it also went the other way. You are quite right. But this exchange must have taken place mainly among the Native Americans and the Norse Greenlanders. Communications between Greenland and Norway were not good, so apart from material objects as furs delivered at Bergen and the large nut "from the other side of the ocean" - the coconut that was made into a bowl with silver feet and handed over to the representative of the Pope, I know no other influences going east. If some could be found, it would be most interesting to learn about them." In another post by him: "In 1327 the papal tax-collector received a small bowl from the Norwegian-Swedish king. The feet of the bowl were made from silver, while the main part was "a nut come from the other side of the ocean". Experts have no doubt that it is a coconut. professor Johan Kielland-Lund jr. at the Agricultural College of Norway says that in order to find a nut of that size, one has at least to go as far south as to Florida. And to make a bowl on silver feet for the king, one would hardly have picked a coconut that was damaged from floating with the currents for a long time." In other words, Inger hasn't mentioned it in any of her posts that I can find. However, the old New Advent Encyclopedia disagrees: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01416a.htm " There is a twofold error in the statement that a valuable cup of Vinland masur wood is mentioned among the tithes of the diocese of Gardar dating from 1327. First, this (ciphus de nuce ultramarina) was not a part of the titles of the Vinland diocese of Gardar, but of Skara, a Swedish diocese; second this goblet was not of masur but of cocoanut. Nor are the arguments drawn from the amount and the character of the tithes levied in the diocese of Gardar for the Crusades more convincing. They are partly based on a faulty computation which estimates the tithes at triple the amounts, and partly on a mistaken conception of conditions in Greenland. As the sources testify, and modern excavations have shown, the Northmen of Greenland, as well as their Icelandic cousins, were active cattle breeders, and raised horses, cattle, sheep, and goats, so that they might easily pay their tithes in calf-skins." By the way, where was Bardson in 1327? Doug Doug |
Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
Doug Weller wrote in message
... Going back even further a post from Kaare Albert Lie "Communications between Greenland and Norway were not good, so apart from material objects as furs delivered at Bergen and the large nut "from the other side of the ocean" - the coconut that was made into a bowl with silver feet and handed over to the representative of the Pope, I know no other influences going east. If some could be found, it would be most interesting to learn about them." It's worth bearing in mind that the original Latin "ultramarina" does not necessarily mean "from the other side of the ocean"- "overseas" would be a more neutral translation. By the way, where was Bardson in 1327? Playing in his parents' yard quite a lot of the time, I suspect. David B. |
Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland
David B,
it's not an error - it's a fact. Noted by several wellknown persons at the time. Not to mention that an identical one according to old document one of the participater in this group sent me some years ago have been found in Greenland. I don't give much for Joseph Fisher's bad background check. He probably wasn't capable in reading all needed languages to solve this question: Icelandic, Old-Norse, Medieval Swedish, Old-Danish, Latin and Dutch. Came to think about it I guess we aren't many who can read them all. I guess it's me and three others in the soc.history.medieval group, maybe one more. Inger E "David B" skrev i meddelandet ... Doug Weller wrote in message ... On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 09:58:41 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote: I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were among the items Ivar Bardson delivered from Vinland as part of the tithes from Vinland. It may take some time to put all the lines from Stavanger to Rome together here. Seems as if it might have been sold in Flandern but I really hope not. More as soon as I have followed that one up. Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this? Follow the online text link through http://www.trochos.plus.com/primesauce/sources.htm#46 to find the following quotation by Josef Fischer, among much other wisdom: "There is a twofold error in the statement that a valuable cup of Vinland masur wood is mentioned among the tithes of the diocese of Gardar dating from 1327. First, this (ciphus de nuce ultramarina) was not a part of the titles of the Vinland diocese of Gardar, but of Skara, a Swedish diocese; second this goblet was not of masur but of cocoanut." So isn't it odd that we are now presented with the story of a valuable coconut-bowl brought by Ivar Bardsson (decades after 1327) as part of the tithes from Vinland. "Liar" translates into Swedish as "lögnhals" or "lögnare"; I'll leave somebody more expert like Alan or Göran to supply a translation or idiomatic equivalent of "pants on fire". David B. |
Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
Doug,
Have you or haven't you looked up and read the three works I refered to regarding Ivar Bardson's delivered tithes from Vinland? That's the question. Not anything else. Please send me a private mail if you can't get hold of all three. I can forward it to a friend who have access to at least one in his daily work. Inger E "Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet .. . On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 13:10:35 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote: "Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet ... On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 09:58:41 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote: actually not entirely Eric, you happened to present me with information same day as I was 'hunting' the Icelandic Annals for a detail re. a person mentioned in a diploma from 1430 as having had his silvership(traded Silver from Iceland to Orkney and Lynn) hijacked by English pirates short after leaving Reykjavik. I linked that person, due to some information in the diploma, to other diplomas among them that where King Erik call for the English King to settle the claims due to English fisherman fishing in Icelandic and Greenlandic waters the last 20 years (410's on forward) and the English pirates who hijacked the Norse-Danish-Swedish King's merchandiser ships, including one of the Royal knarr btw. This link: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/w...s/mnm_mt28.pdf is about medieval textiles, and says " Early in Icelandic history, when silver was plentiful but cloth was scarce, six ells of vađmál (the standard legal tender grade of 2/2 twill wool cloth) were worth one eyrir, or about 24.5 grams of silver (Hoffmann, 195). As the years went on, this number ballooned to 48 ells before stabilizing at about 45 ells around the year 1200 (Dennis et al., 21n, 269n)." http://insci14.ucsd.edu/~jablum/iceland.pdf which is about politics says there was precious little silver. So that's not very helpful. I am also trying to track the silver monted coconut-bowl which were among the items Ivar Bardson delivered from Vinland as part of the tithes from Vinland. It may take some time to put all the lines from Stavanger to Rome together here. Seems as if it might have been sold in Flandern but I really hope not. More as soon as I have followed that one up. Coconut bowl? Where can we read about this? Doug, if you had followed the ref I sent regarding the 3 works dealing with the Papal document where Ivar Bardson's delivery of the tithes for Greenland and Vinland for the years 1354-1364, you would have read about it in one of them long ago. In other words - I have sent the ref. 5 times the last year, one of the others here has sent it with comments as well. So much for following up the references and quotes I send to the group .....:-) Inger E http://groups.google.com/groups?q=in...&lr=lang_en & ie=UTF-8&newwindow=1&c2coff=1&selm=40008072.EAA4AD77%40li nux.nu&rnum=3&filte r=0 So searching on inger ivar tithes silver gives 3 hits, one of them the post in this thread, the other 2 don't have the word bowl in them. A search on Inger Ivar bowl doesn't turn up anything useful from Inter, but an old post by Eric does mention a bowl. discussing Pope Urban's map: "While the English geographer who wrote Inventio Fortunatae described and mapped the world from the North Pole down to about 54°, Pope Urban s map continues from 54° south along the east coast of America. It is tempting to think that these two maps, which were made at about the same time, were intended to be seen as two parts of one and the same map. The geographer didn't necessarily have to have visited all locations himself. As mentioned, he made instrument measurements based on oral information as well. Thirty-three years earlier the pope had received the silver-footed bowl made from a nut shell. It doesn t conclusively prove anything, but it does give reason to suspect that someone had been much farther south at some earlier point." Going back even further a post from Kaare Albert Lie "It is very reasonable to think that if influence went one way, it also went the other way. You are quite right. But this exchange must have taken place mainly among the Native Americans and the Norse Greenlanders. Communications between Greenland and Norway were not good, so apart from material objects as furs delivered at Bergen and the large nut "from the other side of the ocean" - the coconut that was made into a bowl with silver feet and handed over to the representative of the Pope, I know no other influences going east. If some could be found, it would be most interesting to learn about them." In another post by him: "In 1327 the papal tax-collector received a small bowl from the Norwegian-Swedish king. The feet of the bowl were made from silver, while the main part was "a nut come from the other side of the ocean". Experts have no doubt that it is a coconut. professor Johan Kielland-Lund jr. at the Agricultural College of Norway says that in order to find a nut of that size, one has at least to go as far south as to Florida. And to make a bowl on silver feet for the king, one would hardly have picked a coconut that was damaged from floating with the currents for a long time." In other words, Inger hasn't mentioned it in any of her posts that I can find. However, the old New Advent Encyclopedia disagrees: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01416a.htm " There is a twofold error in the statement that a valuable cup of Vinland masur wood is mentioned among the tithes of the diocese of Gardar dating from 1327. First, this (ciphus de nuce ultramarina) was not a part of the titles of the Vinland diocese of Gardar, but of Skara, a Swedish diocese; second this goblet was not of masur but of cocoanut. Nor are the arguments drawn from the amount and the character of the tithes levied in the diocese of Gardar for the Crusades more convincing. They are partly based on a faulty computation which estimates the tithes at triple the amounts, and partly on a mistaken conception of conditions in Greenland. As the sources testify, and modern excavations have shown, the Northmen of Greenland, as well as their Icelandic cousins, were active cattle breeders, and raised horses, cattle, sheep, and goats, so that they might easily pay their tithes in calf-skins." By the way, where was Bardson in 1327? Doug Doug |
Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
David B,
it's not 'ultra-marina' in the Papal documents - It's written directly as tithes from 'Vinlandia' delivered by Ivar Bardson in Bergen 25th june 1364! Inger E "David B" skrev i meddelandet ... Doug Weller wrote in message ... Going back even further a post from Kaare Albert Lie "Communications between Greenland and Norway were not good, so apart from material objects as furs delivered at Bergen and the large nut "from the other side of the ocean" - the coconut that was made into a bowl with silver feet and handed over to the representative of the Pope, I know no other influences going east. If some could be found, it would be most interesting to learn about them." It's worth bearing in mind that the original Latin "ultramarina" does not necessarily mean "from the other side of the ocean"- "overseas" would be a more neutral translation. By the way, where was Bardson in 1327? Playing in his parents' yard quite a lot of the time, I suspect. David B. |
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
|
Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 13:02:24 GMT, "Inger E Johansson"
wrote: "Fridrik Skulason" skrev i meddelandet . com... Eric Stevens wrote in message ... If my information is correct, it might not be just speculation. Well, that is just like saying "If my information is correct, the moon might be made of green cheese". I'm perfectly willing to listen to any convincing arguments, but the fact is that so far no evidence has been presented - some secret document you may or may not have just doens't count, sorry. -frisk Eric, Fridrik is to be trusted no matter what. I guess you might ask your friend if he is willing to talk directly to Fridrik. If there is anything at all that doesn't hold in the secret document I am sure Fridrik will be the one to tell what more that needs to be done and how and if it's possible to get the information made public. Several people are to be trusted. The problem is summarised by the old saying "I can trust you to keep a secret. It's the people who you tell I'm not so sure about". I'm in the business. I just don't tell people, no matter how trustyworthy they may be. Its a pity but that's the way part of the world works. I know Searles (for example) has exactly the same problem but in a different context. Eric Stevens |
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