I could weld once - about 50 years ago - but have lost the art. I now
need to do some brazing, but cant justify expensive kit.

Here in the UK there a lot of plumbers torches, and you have to be
careful about getting the right one for brazing. MAPP gas is OK
apparently, but costs an arm and a leg, so I want to stick to propane.

It appears that propane torches running at about 4 bar get hot enough
without an air supply. Does any one know if this is correct please?
What are the respectable makes? Rothenberger seems to be around a lot.
What about Silverline or Bullfinch??

Any ideas welcome.

David B.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I could weld once - about 50 years ago - but have lost the art. I now
need to do some brazing, but cant justify expensive kit.

Here in the UK there a lot of plumbers torches, and you have to be
careful about getting the right one for brazing. MAPP gas is OK
apparently, but costs an arm and a leg, so I want to stick to propane.

It appears that propane torches running at about 4 bar get hot enough
without an air supply. Does any one know if this is correct please?
What are the respectable makes? Rothenberger seems to be around a lot.
What about Silverline or Bullfinch??


I do small brazing jobs with a "swirl-torch" - it has a vane-shaped gizmo
just after the orifice that creates a vortex and it is hot enough with
regular propane, at the pressure it come out of a small bottle.

The bottle gets cold quickly though, and does not last long. It's for small
parts only...

A plain fuel torch, be it propane, butane, MAPP, or gasoline, fuel, is
not really suitable for BRAZING work. Now then, I'm sure there are
some minor exceptions, but I stand behind my assertion!

If you can live with silver soldering (also called silver brazing,
now), that is different and doable with a fuel-only torch. The fit-up
requirements are more stringent for silver soldering, however.

The HANDY AND HARMAN definition for the various temperature ranges for
joining is as follows:

Soft soldering (typically plumbing, electric, electronic, 400 to 700
deg. F.
Silver soldering, 1100 to 1500 deg. F.
Brazing, 1600 to 1800 deg. F.
Welding, above 1800 deg. F. (with the exception of aluminum)

A fuel-only torch would have a difficult time holding an exposed work
piece at 1600 deg. F and above, which is a cherry red colour. If you
were to enclose the work piece in insulating material that would change
things; but heating it up with a torch in the open, applying filler
material in the open, would be a frustrating experience.

To a large measure it depends on the size of the work you wish to do.
For jewellry sized work brazing with fuel-only torch may be OK as
stated by others.......anything larger....model engineering
sized....would require oxy-fuel for satisfactory brazing.

Trust this helps a little.

Wolfgang

On 23 Mar 2006 05:31:44 -0800, "
wrote:

I could weld once - about 50 years ago - but have lost the art. I now
need to do some brazing, but cant justify expensive kit.

Here in the UK there a lot of plumbers torches, and you have to be
careful about getting the right one for brazing. MAPP gas is OK
apparently, but costs an arm and a leg, so I want to stick to propane.

It appears that propane torches running at about 4 bar get hot enough
without an air supply. Does any one know if this is correct please?
What are the respectable makes? Rothenberger seems to be around a lot.
What about Silverline or Bullfinch??

Any ideas welcome.

David B.


David, have a look at:

http://members.optusnet.com.au/terry...herBurner.html

http://members.optushome.com.au/terr.../BigMongo.html

http://www.abana.org/ronreil/ezburner.shtml

http://www.warnerknives.com/propane_forge.htm
(this one look down near bottom of page)

build your own burner from the ironmonger's, if they still have such a beast in
the UK.

Mike in BC

wrote:

I could weld once - about 50 years ago - but have lost the art. I now
need to do some brazing, but cant justify expensive kit.

Here in the UK there a lot of plumbers torches, and you have to be
careful about getting the right one for brazing. MAPP gas is OK
apparently, but costs an arm and a leg, so I want to stick to propane.

It appears that propane torches running at about 4 bar get hot enough
without an air supply. Does any one know if this is correct please?
What are the respectable makes? Rothenberger seems to be around a lot.
What about Silverline or Bullfinch??

Any ideas welcome.

David B.



If you happen to have or can get ahold of a "buzz box" stick welder, you
could get a carbon arc torch. I've had one for several years for those
"once in a while" brazing jobs larger than I can do with a propane swirl
torch and a few firebricks to keep the heat contained. I never got
around to springing for a full oxy-acetylene rig. You gotta wear a
welder's helmet when using it, but it "do work".

Mine was made by Lincoln (scroll down this page):

http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...ature/e230.pdf

I've heard some guys say they made their own cheaply by following plans
like these:

http://www.centaurforge.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BK801

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Jeffry Wisnia wrote:

"If you happen to have or can get ahold of a "buzz box" stick welder,
you could get a carbon arc torch...I've heard some guys say they made
their own cheaply by following plans like these:"

Of course, Don Meador also has a second book on building a water
resistor, for operating a carbon arc torch without an arc welder, and
yet a third book on salvaging carbon rods from old batteries. I
haven't yet bought these books, though they are high on my list for
future purchases:

http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks8/meador/index.html

Mike Mandaville

Keywords:
In article .com, wrote:
A plain fuel torch, be it propane, butane, MAPP, or gasoline, fuel, is
not really suitable for BRAZING work. Now then, I'm sure there are
some minor exceptions, but I stand behind my assertion!

If you can live with silver soldering (also called silver brazing,
now), that is different and doable with a fuel-only torch. The fit-up
requirements are more stringent for silver soldering, however.

The HANDY AND HARMAN definition for the various temperature ranges for
joining is as follows:

Soft soldering (typically plumbing, electric, electronic, 400 to 700
deg. F.
Silver soldering, 1100 to 1500 deg. F.
Brazing, 1600 to 1800 deg. F.
Welding, above 1800 deg. F. (with the exception of aluminum)

A fuel-only torch would have a difficult time holding an exposed work
piece at 1600 deg. F and above, which is a cherry red colour. If you
were to enclose the work piece in insulating material that would change
things; but heating it up with a torch in the open, applying filler
material in the open, would be a frustrating experience.

To a large measure it depends on the size of the work you wish to do.
For jewellry sized work brazing with fuel-only torch may be OK as
stated by others.......anything larger....model engineering
sized....would require oxy-fuel for satisfactory brazing.

As a point of reference, I had no trouble silver soldering loops of 1/8"
diameter SS rod to the back of a 3" diameter 1/1" thick SS disk with a
standard propane torch. I had it parked on a firebrick, which tends to
reflect the heat back towards the work.

Doug White

More information on what you are trying to do would help. Propane will
work for silver brazing and for brazing copper with Silphos. The size
of the object makes a big difference as well as using insulating
firebrick or something to keep the object from losing heat.

Dan




wrote:
I could weld once - about 50 years ago - but have lost the art. I now
need to do some brazing, but cant justify expensive kit.

Here in the UK there a lot of plumbers torches, and you have to be
careful about getting the right one for brazing. MAPP gas is OK
apparently, but costs an arm and a leg, so I want to stick to propane.

It appears that propane torches running at about 4 bar get hot enough
without an air supply. Does any one know if this is correct please?
What are the respectable makes? Rothenberger seems to be around a lot.
What about Silverline or Bullfinch??

Any ideas welcome.

David B.

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 00:12:02 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:


To a large measure it depends on the size of the work you wish to do.
For jewellry sized work brazing with fuel-only torch may be OK as
stated by others.......anything larger....model engineering
sized....would require oxy-fuel for satisfactory brazing.

As a point of reference, I had no trouble silver soldering loops of 1/8"
diameter SS rod to the back of a 3" diameter 1/1" thick SS disk with a
standard propane torch. I had it parked on a firebrick, which tends to
reflect the heat back towards the work.

Doug White
Small items, or sheet steel, I have no problem brazing with a turbo
torch, and now that I have two of them,I could probable do larger
items. My favorite though remains silver solder, Several years ago, I
cut the bell ends from 3" bronze/brass toilet flange and 90 deg. elbow
then silver soldered the two together to allow the lower level toilet
to be mounted at floor level rather than on a platform as the previous
homeowner/non handyman had tried to install it.
I have both torches mounted to adapter hoses so the can be fed from
20 pound BBQ tanks so no problem with the disposables freezing.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

writes:

Any ideas welcome.

If you wanna braze large items on the cheap, make your own Reil burner.
It's all about BTUs.

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

wrote:

If you happen to have or can get ahold of a "buzz box" stick welder, you
could get a carbon arc torch. I've had one for several years for those
"once in a while" brazing jobs larger than I can do with a propane swirl
torch and a few firebricks to keep the heat contained. I never got
around to springing for a full oxy-acetylene rig. You gotta wear a
welder's helmet when using it, but it "do work".


I've got the same arc torch. I took a welding lens and rigged up a holder
for it so it attaches to the arc torch. One thing I didn't like using a
helmet was I couldn't see the steel colors as it heated up. Before I knew
it, the steel started melting. This new way, I just move the lens out of
the way to peek to see how the colors are running.

--
--Marc

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 03:21:00 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

writes:

Any ideas welcome.

If you wanna braze large items on the cheap, make your own Reil burner.
It's all about BTUs.

Right. And they don't require 4 bar. 20 PSI (1.35 bar) is ample.
I think Ron Reil said he brazed two cannonballs together with a Reil
burner.

http://ronreil.abana.org/design1.shtml

I can silver solder for the most part - but when I was bronze brazing - the bronze
absorbed some iron in the steel - and the alloy turned hard and high temp.
That is when I changed to a 30 gal. Propane and a tall Oxy bottle. That melted
the hard and high temp alloy and continued the job.
Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member


Gerald Miller wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 00:12:02 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:


To a large measure it depends on the size of the work you wish to do.
For jewellry sized work brazing with fuel-only torch may be OK as
stated by others.......anything larger....model engineering
sized....would require oxy-fuel for satisfactory brazing.

As a point of reference, I had no trouble silver soldering loops of 1/8"
diameter SS rod to the back of a 3" diameter 1/1" thick SS disk with a
standard propane torch. I had it parked on a firebrick, which tends to
reflect the heat back towards the work.

Doug White

Small items, or sheet steel, I have no problem brazing with a turbo
torch, and now that I have two of them,I could probable do larger
items. My favorite though remains silver solder, Several years ago, I
cut the bell ends from 3" bronze/brass toilet flange and 90 deg. elbow
then silver soldered the two together to allow the lower level toilet
to be mounted at floor level rather than on a platform as the previous
homeowner/non handyman had tried to install it.
I have both torches mounted to adapter hoses so the can be fed from
20 pound BBQ tanks so no problem with the disposables freezing.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

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On 23 Mar 2006 05:31:44 -0800, "
wrote:

need to do some brazing, but cant justify expensive kit.

Then get yourself to eBay, where such things are cheap and plentiful.

It appears that propane torches running at about 4 bar get hot enough
without an air supply. Does any one know if this is correct please?

Sort of. You don't need 4 bar, but you do need decent flow rates. Most
of all though, you need either oxy-propane, blown air or (cheapest) a
decent firebrick hearth. Some decent insulation and a few spare bricks
to pile above it is like doubling your torch output.
http://codesmiths.com/shed/workshop/...ues/hearth.htm

If you can get an oxygen cylinder though, I just _love_ my oxy-propane
rig. Kit's cheap, it's the bottle rental that costs.

As eBay really is cheap and plentiful for new kit, then get yourself a
decent propane regulator, not an undersized caravan one.

What are the respectable makes? Rothenberger seems to be around a lot.
What about Silverline or Bullfinch??

Rothenberger are good. Bullfinch are *%^£ expensive. Silverline are as
good as you'd expect.

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 16:10:12 GMT, wrote:

http://www.abana.org/ronreil/ezburner.shtml

build your own burner from the ironmonger's, if they still have such a beast in
the UK.

IMHO, it's not worth building your own Ron Reil burner in the UK.

- They're fussy beasts. There's a lot of fiddling about with precise
sizes that Ron has sorted out already. The advantage of his burner
design is that he already knows a #23 twiddly works and a #22 doesn't,
you don't have to do the experiment with both.

- You can't get the bits in the UK. Although we do have bits, we can't
just find the exact same part numbers and so it's not possible to get
the advantage of a simple ready-adjusted build by using exactly matching
sizes.

- There's a guy in the USA (linked from or to Ron's site) who makes and
sells this design of burner.
http://www.hybridburners.com/#Burners
They're well made, neatly finished and his prices are reasonable. If
you want such a beast, getting one of his is just a lot easier.
http://www.jarkman.co.uk/catalog/for...inderforge.htm

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 03:21:00 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

It's all about BTUs.

Not all of it. You need temperature too.

"Weed burner" burners are cheap and commonplace and they make _lots_ of
BTUs. However the flame is too big and the temperature too low to be a
great deal of use for metalworking.

Andy Dingley writes:

It's all about BTUs.

Not all of it. You need temperature too.

Flame temperature is what it is.

Martin H. Eastburn writes:

Flame temperature is what it is.

Then a match will melt a bridge. But it won't.
The match doesn't have enough energy, just temperature.

Sigh. Which is why I said, it's all about BTUs, build your own (big) Reil
burner, and immerse your parts in flame. Try to follow the context.

Yep - I use one of Ron's designs in a small furnace. Melts metal just nice.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member


Richard J Kinch wrote:
Martin H. Eastburn writes:


Flame temperature is what it is.


Then a match will melt a bridge. But it won't.
The match doesn't have enough energy, just temperature.


Sigh. Which is why I said, it's all about BTUs, build your own (big) Reil
burner, and immerse your parts in flame. Try to follow the context.

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