I'm buying a new (to me) home out in the country on ~4.5 acres land. There
is no garage/pole building/workshop on the property and the land isn't very
flat. Also, there are a lot of trees & brush growth to be cleared. At
first I was thinking about buying an older Bobcat or similar and selling it
after I was done with it. Lately I've been wondering if a tractor with a
front end loader would do the same job as good as, or better than, a Bobcat.
I thought the tractor would be more useful for mowing, etc. I guess either
one could handle a future "CADDigger" backhoe attatchment project. Any
thoughts as to why a Bobcat would be better than a tractor or vice-versa.

Thanks!

"RogerN" wrote in message
ink.net...

I'm buying a new (to me) home out in the country on ~4.5 acres land.
There
is no garage/pole building/workshop on the property and the land isn't
very
flat. Also, there are a lot of trees & brush growth to be cleared. At
first I was thinking about buying an older Bobcat or similar and selling
it
after I was done with it. Lately I've been wondering if a tractor with a
front end loader would do the same job as good as, or better than, a
Bobcat.
I thought the tractor would be more useful for mowing, etc. I guess
either
one could handle a future "CADDigger" backhoe attatchment project. Any
thoughts as to why a Bobcat would be better than a tractor or vice-versa.

Thanks!




The one thing that a Bobcat can do that a normal tractor can't is turn in
place. If you are at all tight on the space where you will be working, get a
Bobcat. Otherwise I would get a 4 wheel drive tractor like a Kubota or some
other brand of your choice. A regular rear wheel drive tractor has problems
with a heavy load on the FEL (front end loader), because it takes weight off
the rear wheels and you can loose traction. This is especially difficult to
deal with if you're not on perfectly flat ground or there is any slippage
due to mud, grass etc. Go ahead, ask me how I know. grin



Lane

If your focus is construction stuff, go with the Bobcat. It can't
be beat for moving small to medium dirt in confined spaces. Not
to mention lots of dirt attachements like scarfers, etc. If you
want to do farm or land things like mowing, towing, hay bales,
etc, and some construction , go with a 4wd tractor Kubota or even
a 2wd farm tractor.

RogerN wrote:
I'm buying a new (to me) home out in the country on ~4.5 acres land. There
is no garage/pole building/workshop on the property and the land isn't very
flat. Also, there are a lot of trees & brush growth to be cleared. At
first I was thinking about buying an older Bobcat or similar and selling it
after I was done with it. Lately I've been wondering if a tractor with a
front end loader would do the same job as good as, or better than, a Bobcat.
I thought the tractor would be more useful for mowing, etc. I guess either
one could handle a future "CADDigger" backhoe attatchment project. Any
thoughts as to why a Bobcat would be better than a tractor or vice-versa.

Thanks!

Dear off-topic police - my backhoe calls for a lot of metalworking
skills, due to advanced age and some idiot who didn't know what grease
was somewhere up the owner chain...

Different animals, to be sure. IME, (5 years and counting, 8 acres, a
lot of driveway through rocky woods) and IMHO, a backhoe is the general
purpose (ie, not a bulldozer) instrument to get stumps out without
killing yourself (pulling stumps with a tractor is a good way to show up
in the Darwin awards). I don't think a Bobcat would do, unless it was
one of the excavator models, and even then it might be small for the
job, unless the trees that need to go are all quite small. Perhaps a
Bobcat wrangler knows tricks I don't for getting stumps the size of a
Bobcat out with one.

A medium-size tracked excavator might also be a good choice, but was way
over my budget (used) while a backhoe (quite used) fit it pretty well.
In all cases you need to be careful (very) of the slope, and a proper
ROPS would be a (very) good idea. A trackhoe would be the best bet for
least rollover potential, but again, it's expensive.

Ag tractors (good for mowing, etc) tend to have abysmal front end
loaders (and front ends, period) and ability to run backhoes. An
industrial tractor, which does well at running a backhoe, has a beefy
front end, and will have a good loader, tends to have little ability to
run mowers, etc.

Depending on your timeframe and scale of operations, renting might make
sense for land-clearing (A big bulldozer with a ripper or a big tracked
excavator makes my backhoe look slow at digging out stumps - from
pictures I've seen of the caddigger, I'd make it look slow) - in any
case, the land-clearing machine and the mowing machine are different
purposes, and you will probably do better with different machines for
each phase.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

"RogerN" wrote in message
ink.net...

I'm buying a new (to me) home out in the country on ~4.5 acres land.
There
is no garage/pole building/workshop on the property and the land isn't
very
flat. Also, there are a lot of trees & brush growth to be cleared. At
first I was thinking about buying an older Bobcat or similar and selling
it
after I was done with it. Lately I've been wondering if a tractor with a
front end loader would do the same job as good as, or better than, a
Bobcat.
I thought the tractor would be more useful for mowing, etc. I guess
either
one could handle a future "CADDigger" backhoe attatchment project. Any
thoughts as to why a Bobcat would be better than a tractor or vice-versa.

Thanks!

Owning just a Bobcat by itself is not that useful. It's a compact machine
with lifting and carrying capacity similar to a much larger farm tractor but
with just the loader bucket you can't do much more than lift and carry
stuff. Really can't dig without a backhoe attachment, and the backhoe
attachments are a pain to deal with. Also the skid-steering tears up the
ground, and it deals poorly with uneven ground and hills.

If you have room to maneuver, and your potential projects are ... big,
frankly your best bet is to buy an older full-size commercial backhoe, like
a Case 580 series.

The silly thing is there is such demand for the compact tractors, you can
buy an older full-size backhoe/loader for the same $ as a decent used Bobcat
or compact tractor with attachments. Broad range of like $10-15K,
obviously it is a regional thing, at least that is the universal price range
in the NW. The only thing it won't do is your routine mowing.

I suggest a full-size backhoe for your clearing and development, and a "farm
sized" riding mower for field maintenance (like a "real" JD, not the home
depot series).

You really don't save anything by buying smaller - the main attraction of
smaller is just that you can maneuver with fewer ... side effects.

Bob

Thanks for the replies!

The farm tractor idea was in the line of the backhoe idea. Perhaps I can go
with a backhoe for the clearing & leveling and maybe something like a Ford
8N or similar for mowing and gardening. Sometimes I see some of the older
Ford backhoes going pretty reasonable ($5k or less), there's a couple of
Case 580's advertised now around here in the $8500 range. There's also a
Bobcat for $2800 and another skid steer for $3200 in the same paper.

Thanks again!

My vote would be for a tractor with a pto and three point. With a pto and
three point you have the versatility to have many attachments such as post
hole diggers, mowers, scrapers, and lots of other attachments.
I hook a trailer up to my three point and presto, instant dump capability.

--
Please visit my website.
http://www.wallenderengineering.com
"RogerN" wrote in message
k.net...

Thanks for the replies!

The farm tractor idea was in the line of the backhoe idea. Perhaps I can
go
with a backhoe for the clearing & leveling and maybe something like a Ford
8N or similar for mowing and gardening. Sometimes I see some of the older
Ford backhoes going pretty reasonable ($5k or less), there's a couple of
Case 580's advertised now around here in the $8500 range. There's also a
Bobcat for $2800 and another skid steer for $3200 in the same paper.

Thanks again!

Food for thought.
Neighbour bought a 'bobcat' and has sunk $3000 into it to fix problems the
previous owner let go ( like greasing!). It sits outside all the time, for
the past year+.It will just handle moving rocks and gravel providing the
ground isn't damp. terrible traction, and it's tore up all of his grass.
I bought an Allis Chalmers D-14 farm tractor, with front end loader. It's
about 40HP.I've only got $2000 into the whole rig including 3F
plow,discs,grader blade. Sits in the shop ready for action. Starts and runs
good. Goes 'anywhere', pulls 'anything'. I built a 'pallet lift' for the
rear. This allows me to carry 'big,ugly' items anywhere I need to. The
loader is light duty trip bucket but has saved my back digging,moving,etc.
esp. when lifting steel beams into place building a loft.
With 4.5 acres I'd seriously find a good, used 2wd backhoe/loader like the
580 series AND a 30-40 HP tractor. The tractor is better than the 4wd
Kubota's for price /performance. Seems everyone wants them and Ford 8Ns.
Going bigger can actually save you money. Example. The other neighbours 8N
couldn't turn over my 1 acre plot with a 2F plow, the Allis did it with the
3F easily.
The backhoe is ideal for digging and moving lots of material, just not so
good cutting grass.
Figure out how much cash is available, split it between the two and buy both
and a few grease cartridges. You'll be happier!
Jay

Buy a real loader backhoe like a case 580 or cat 417

spend a little more and get a newer machine (i.e. I wouldn't recommend
anything older than a case 580D, early 80's)

the real construction equipment will take a beating, you'll kill the tractor
and bobcats are too small for any work other than squeezing in tight places
the hoe won't go

sell the backhoe when you are done and buy a 4wd tractor with a loader and
mower deck

I used mine for 5 years and sold it after for almost the same price.

"RogerN" wrote in message
k.net...

Thanks for the replies!

The farm tractor idea was in the line of the backhoe idea. Perhaps I can
go
with a backhoe for the clearing & leveling and maybe something like a Ford
8N or similar for mowing and gardening. Sometimes I see some of the older
Ford backhoes going pretty reasonable ($5k or less), there's a couple of
Case 580's advertised now around here in the $8500 range. There's also a
Bobcat for $2800 and another skid steer for $3200 in the same paper.

Thanks again!

"RogerN" wrote in message
ink.net...

I'm buying a new (to me) home out in the country on ~4.5 acres land.
There
is no garage/pole building/workshop on the property and the land isn't
very
flat. Also, there are a lot of trees & brush growth to be cleared. At
first I was thinking about buying an older Bobcat or similar and selling
it
after I was done with it. Lately I've been wondering if a tractor with a
front end loader would do the same job as good as, or better than, a
Bobcat.
I thought the tractor would be more useful for mowing, etc. I guess
either
one could handle a future "CADDigger" backhoe attatchment project. Any
thoughts as to why a Bobcat would be better than a tractor or vice-versa.


Roger,

I suggest you rent or hire a dozer or excavator to do the big stuff first,
then take some time in deciding what to get for personal use / grounds
maintenance.

A medium sized dozer with a skilled operator can in many cases accomplish in
two hours what it would take weeks or even months to do on a small tractor
or bobcat.

A medium sized excavator can rip fairly large trees out, stump and all and
toss them in nice neat stacks almost effortlessly.

Look around your neighborhood and find someone who has this equipment within
a few miles of you, often they will give you reduced rates or even waive
drop-off charges on small weekend jobs, provided you deal with them on a
money up front basis.

Always good to be buddies with a small local excavation company.............

--

SVL

You never do say where you are located? I just happen to have a nice 450C
deere and do alittle earthmoving on the side. I have caught more jobs clearing
for pole buildings than anything else.

tim

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
news:c0j8jb$184jdu$1@ID-
Roger,

I suggest you rent or hire a dozer or excavator to do the big stuff first,
then take some time in deciding what to get for personal use / grounds
maintenance.

A medium sized dozer with a skilled operator can in many cases accomplish
in
two hours what it would take weeks or even months to do on a small tractor
or bobcat.

A medium sized excavator can rip fairly large trees out, stump and all and
toss them in nice neat stacks almost effortlessly.

Look around your neighborhood and find someone who has this equipment
within
a few miles of you, often they will give you reduced rates or even waive
drop-off charges on small weekend jobs, provided you deal with them on a
money up front basis.

Always good to be buddies with a small local excavation
company.............

That's good advice :-) around here (island) there is enough competition
that there are no drop-off charges just a reasonable flat hourly rate.
Hiring a large excavator for a day can get a lot done.

That said, a friend bought a 580K some years ago and has done everything he
needed alone - clearing, grading, road building, retaining wall work with
large boulders. When you're looking at doing it yourself for fuel and
maintenance cost vs. hiring in an excavactor for $1000/day your own time can
go a long way.

PrecisionMachinisT wrote:

"RogerN" wrote
I'm buying a new (to me) home out in the country on ~4.5 acres land.
...
first I was thinking about buying an older Bobcat or similar and selling
it
after I was done with it. Lately I've been wondering if a tractor with a
front end loader would do the same job as good as, or better than, a
Bobcat.

I suggest you rent or hire a dozer or excavator to do the big stuff first,
then take some time in deciding what to get for personal use / grounds
maintenance.

This may make sense but in case it might apply to your situation:

It was summer. The walls were poured, damp-proofed and insulated. Time
to
backfill. We could have someone come in and do it in a day for around
Cdn$400. For the same money, we could rent a Bobcat for a week. This
was
just before the July long weekend and we had a bunch of visitors
comming.

We decided to go the rental route. Well, our guests were unanimous that
that
Bobcat was more fun than a trip to Disney Land. There was a constant
line up
of eager drivers of all ages.

The back filling got done along with some other earth moving projects.

Ted

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:16:49 GMT, "RogerN"
wrote:


Thanks for the replies!

The farm tractor idea was in the line of the backhoe idea. Perhaps I can go
with a backhoe for the clearing & leveling and maybe something like a Ford
8N or similar for mowing and gardening. Sometimes I see some of the older
Ford backhoes going pretty reasonable ($5k or less), there's a couple of
Case 580's advertised now around here in the $8500 range. There's also a
Bobcat for $2800 and another skid steer for $3200 in the same paper.

Thanks again!

Can't beet an old Case Construction King. (unless you need something
bigger, like an Allis)

"TSJABS" wrote in message
...
You never do say where you are located? I just happen to have a nice
450C
deere and do alittle earthmoving on the side. I have caught more jobs
clearing
for pole buildings than anything else.


Hi, Tim.

We have 8 acres in Southwest Washington State, near Kalama, just across the
freeway from the Columbia river.......

Lotsa ( VERY ) steep hills and solid rock.

We took 24 ( or was it 35 ) loads of mature Douglas Fir off 5 acres of the
property in 1999.

I have a kubota 4wd I use here for myself--I finally have most of the mess
cleaned up, but it sure has taken a while..........

For bigger jobs, I get ahold of my neighbor down the road a 1/2 mile or so,
he has a pc 60 excavator, a jd 450 and a case 580k, as well as a coupla dump
trucks.

My personal experience with operating larger heavy equipment is that it
indeed takes skill and experience to obtain the desired result...........

I can fiddle around for hours on a dozer, and be unhappy with the results,
but If I am on the ground calling the shots, with an experienced operator on
the machine, I can get way better results for about the same price, and
likely even less time....And maybe even enjoy a few beers while I'm at
it......

--

SVL

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 01:47:51 GMT, "RogerN"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

How big are the trees? How many? What sort of soil?

You will be surprised at how easy it is to stop a tractor. Especially
one of bobcat size.

I would buy a tractor over the bobcat. Bobcats are really for quick
action in small areas, and on relatively smooth ground. They do not
have the ground clearance of a tractor.

When I bought, I purchased a tractor straight away. I thought this
thing would be unstoppable. It balked at the first stump I tried to
move, and it was a pretty tiny stump.

If you buy a tractor with FEL, get one that is "too big". Also get an
industrial one, not a farm one, if you want it to last. If you get a
backhoe, do not expect it to take the place of the tractor, unless it
has a TPL, PTO and you can remove and replace the backhoe pretty
quickly. Many of those machines have the hoe actually built on to the
machine.

Unless you are a machine expert (and it does not sound like it,
wothout trying to be rude. I'm not either) take along a mate or find a
retired operator who knows machines and will work for cash cheaply.
Just remond the guy constantly that you are not a commercial operator.
The guy I used simply would not recommend any machines and kept
pricing them way below market. What he did for me though, was let me
see lots of machines, and find out how to look at them. In the end I
bought one on my own, for a bargain price in the market, and I was
ready to buy, eyes wide open.

I now have a tractor, a small backhoe (which I also thought would do
everything), a 10-ton FEL and a 20 ton bulldozer. I admit I do have a
little more than 5 acres to do, and also I should have gone for a
quarry license, not tried farming :- I have enough hours' use of
machinery around there that buying was an option. _My_ trouble is
selling at the other end :-. BUT the dozer has paid for over half of
its cost, even at the modest rate I "charge" myself, and accounting
for my labour, fuel, parts etc. That is about to take a slight
setback. Major rear axle troubles.....:-

Shotfirer's license anyone? G

If you have big stumps, you will need big machines, unless you are
willing to take a lot of time. If the ground is rocky at all, then a
backhoe can often struggle. You try to dig a stump oyt. It's too big.
You start to dog around it....rock.....another rock etc etc.

One way to get rid of stumps is burning them out, of course. There was
a time when all this was done by hand, fire and a bit of dynamite.


I'm buying a new (to me) home out in the country on ~4.5 acres land. There
is no garage/pole building/workshop on the property and the land isn't very
flat. Also, there are a lot of trees & brush growth to be cleared. At
first I was thinking about buying an older Bobcat or similar and selling it
after I was done with it. Lately I've been wondering if a tractor with a
front end loader would do the same job as good as, or better than, a Bobcat.
I thought the tractor would be more useful for mowing, etc. I guess either
one could handle a future "CADDigger" backhoe attatchment project. Any
thoughts as to why a Bobcat would be better than a tractor or vice-versa.

Thanks!



************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Spike....Spike? Hello?

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 01:47:51 GMT, "RogerN" wrote:
I'm buying a new (to me) home out in the country on ~4.5 acres land. There
is no garage/pole building/workshop on the property and the land isn't very
flat. Also, there are a lot of trees & brush growth to be cleared. At
first I was thinking about buying an older Bobcat or similar and selling it
after I was done with it. Lately I've been wondering if a tractor with a
front end loader would do the same job as good as, or better than, a Bobcat.
I thought the tractor would be more useful for mowing, etc. I guess either
one could handle a future "CADDigger" backhoe attatchment project. Any
thoughts as to why a Bobcat would be better than a tractor or vice-versa.

With only 4.5 acres, you'll probably be best buying neither. Hire someone
with a good sized backhoe/trackhoe to do the clearing. Then buy a good
yard/garden tractor, or an older small farm tractor, for ongoing property
maintenance.

You need a good sized machine to remove tree stumps or to do serious
digging in hard ground. Bobcats and compact tractors need not apply.
But you don't have enough ongoing use on such a small amount of property
to justify buying and keeping big machinery, especially since you have no
way of keeping it under cover, or transporting it elsewhere to do custom
work for others to recover part of the costs.

Front end loaders, including Bobcats, are good for moving loose material,
but they don't do well when asked to dig (a loader is a loader, not an
excavator, even attempting to clear brush with them doesn't work very
well). Backhoes dig, but they aren't so good for moving material. An
industrial TLB (tractor loader backhoe) can be a good choice, but unless
it is fairly large, it won't dig much or fast, and won't haul much or fast.
None of them will mow your lawn.

My neighbor (a landscaper) has a Bobcat, and it was funny to see him
try to remove even a pine stump (Ok, it was a *big* pine stump better
than 3 feet in diameter). He worked at it for 2 days, and destroyed a
good bit of his yard trying to get that one stump out (damaged the
bucket too, I had to weld it back up for him). Meanwhile I hired in a
TLB and had six similar sized trees removed from my yard, with minimal
damage to the yard, in 2 hours.

It isn't that my neighbor is a klutz with a Bobcat, it is just that he was
trying to do the job with the wrong type of equipment, because he had
it, rather than hiring in the right piece of equipment for the job. (A part
of it was the TLB operator, though, that guy was an artiste, it was a
real pleasure to watch him work.)

Now I have a John Deere 4020 farm tractor (14,000 pounds 100 hp).
Even it doesn't like a big front end loader attached (front axles not
sized for the load), and while I can attach a backhoe to the 3 pt hitch,
it won't work as well as a dedicated machine. But it does a great job
with an 8 foot Bush Hog, 4 bottom plow, 18 foot disc, etc in normal
farm type service. I have a rear mounted blade and a rear mounted
scraper bucket for the minimal types of earth moving I do with it.

I also made a 3 pt hitch gin pole for it to handle things you'd normally
use a hydracrane to lift, and a 3 pt mounted set of forks for things you'd
normally use a forklift to do. It isn't as handy at either of those jobs as
a dedicated machine, but it suffices for my needs. Understand, though,
that I have 170 acres, not just 4.5 acres, and I have barns, sheds, etc
to keep the tractor and its attachments under cover when not in use.

When I was actively farming the place, I also had a bunch of other
machinery, but I sold that off when I decided to stop farming it myself.
(I lease the land out to a big operator now.) I kept the old John Deere
(a 1969 gas model) for maintenance chores around the farm. I'm glad
I did, but it is no substitute for the right equipment when the job requires
it. I don't hesitate to hire in the right stuff when required. Long experience
has taught me that it pays.

Gary