Would you mind posting some pics to

http://photobucket.com/ or to the dropbox

for all interested to see?

RJ

"Jeridiah" wrote in message
om...
"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Jeridiah, could you explain more about the insulated concrete forms?
pics,
website, maybe? Being in the south, that's not an item we would normally
use
around here. I've seen the ones used to pour basements and such, then
left
in place. I would assume they are integral to the flow of the building
so
they don't protrude from the slab, etc? What would protect them from
string
trimmers, lawn mowers, and such?


http://www.integraspec.com/frame.html

This is the system I used. There are about a dozen of them around
here. I built mine from the footings to the eaves in one solid wall.
The foam wall is put up first and then it is filled with cement. The
big advantage is that you end up with a monolithic slab for a wall, so
there are no air gaps anywhere. It is important to plan ahead though,
because if you need to add a hole later, it is difficult(but not
impossible).
The walls on the inside are finished anyway you choose(I went with OSB
to withstand the inevetible dings in a shop). The outside can be
finished in any conventional manner(mine is colored sheet steel).
I have been taking pictures throughout the entire project, but have
not gotten around to building a website yet. I can send you some if
you want.

JW

That's what I've been seriously thinking of doing if I go the radiant route.
Most of what I would bolt down would be within about 2 feet of the interior
wall for floor stands for tools and such. The compressors will be in an
anterior room this time around.

RJ

"dg" wrote in message
om...
Speaking of radiant floor heating in the shop, it would seem like a good
idea to somehow, very accurately, map the layout of your tubing in the
floor. Someday you may want to run some anchor bolts into the concrete
and
it would really suck to hit a tube and have water squirting up through
your
floor.

--Dan

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
I've been researching that subject, and it sounds mighty sweet. My only
issue is that I have a nice Hilti anchor drill, and I ain't afraid to
use
it! G Luckily, my compressors were bolted down during the flood. Still
considering it though. How expensive is the radiant heat to operate in
fuel
costs? Thinking about a gas pack for quick heat, with radiant for more
extended work periods. Thanks.

RJ

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:41:26 GMT, "dg" wrote:

Speaking of radiant floor heating in the shop, it would seem like a good
idea to somehow, very accurately, map the layout of your tubing in the
floor. Someday you may want to run some anchor bolts into the concrete and
it would really suck to hit a tube and have water squirting up through your
floor.

Burying the tubing 3" to 4" down should clear most bolts. If they
won't there's the expensive way - turn the system on and use some sort
of thermal imaging device to map out the pipes...

Or the cheap way - spray a little water on the floor, turn the
system up high, get down on your knees (I know, easy for some
people...) ;-) and mark where the floor dries out first with a
pencil. The marks will be right over the pipes.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Burying the tubing 3" to 4" down should clear most bolts. If they
won't there's the expensive way - turn the system on and use some sort
of thermal imaging device to map out the pipes...

Or the cheap way - spray a little water on the floor, turn the
system up high, get down on your knees (I know, easy for some
people...) ;-) and mark where the floor dries out first with a
pencil. The marks will be right over the pipes.

I believe someone else here also used a third way:
Don't drill where the cat likes to nap. :^)
--Glenn Lyford

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
snip------
Also, thanks Guys and Gals, for the insights and ideas I have personally
received from this NG so far. Let the local farmers sit around the heater
at
the country store. I'll hang out here with you guys.

RJ

Cool, RJ!

While you're hanging out, check this link. http://rastra.com/

It's a leave-in-place foam/cement block that is almost unique ( a couple of
copycat blocks have appeared recently). Unlike any other foam block, this
one has a 4 hour fire rating and has a very high R value, something like an
R30. It can be assembled with hand tools, with the only thing out of
the ordinary needed is a lifting device to place them when they get high.
Two guys with muscle can do it, but I built a boom for our small Kubota
tractor and place them that way, using a boat winch along with the tractor
hydraulics. Susan is all the help I've needed so far, and we've completed
a shop that is 32' X 80' with a 12' ceiling , and are now building a house
that is two stories with a full basement. I highly recommend the
material. Finishing the exterior and interior can be accomplished by all
the conventional methods at your option. If you're interested in the
material, I'll gladly provide more information on the do's and don't do's.
Contact me on the side if you're interested.

The shop has a complete bathroom with a tiled shower (no tub), built in
vacuum cleaner, hydronic heating in the 6" thick slab, built in air lines
and almost all of the power built in the walls. Only the odd 3 phase item
with large wire is run on the surface in conduit. . The shop is
completely finished, right down to quarry tile coving to make cleaning up
easy. Walls are primed and painted with two coats in a light green color,
very pleasing to the eye, preventing eye fatigue. Sand blast cabinet is
vented through the wall for outside discharge using a squirrel cage blower
so there's no noisy vacuum cleaner system to listen to when using the
cabinet. A louvered discharge fan was installed for removing smoke from
welding. Compressor and built in vacuum cleaner system are inside a
separate room that is isolated by an 8" concrete block wall so you don't
hear either of them running. Lots of 8' fluorescent light fixtures, 49
total, are hung in the shop, some down at 9', others at ceiling height,
depending on where and why. I installed a length of 6" well casing for use
as a small crane in what will become my foundry area. The pipe was installed
4' below floor depth, when footings were poured, so it is well anchored at
the base and should not present any problems being used without any top
support for the loads intended.

Harold

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:25:47 +0000, Mark Rand
wrote:

Did I mention that the plot is triangular? Proper
distance to the property lines for both the old and the new structures is 3".

Ah! Ok. never mind G

Gunner


"This device is provided without warranty of any kind as to reliability,
accuracy, existence or otherwise or fitness for any particular purpose
and Bioalchemic Products specifically does not warrant, guarantee,
imply or make any representations as to its merchantability for any
particular purpose and furthermore shall have no liability for or
responsibility to you or any other person, entity or deity with respect
to any loss or damage whatsoever caused by this device or object or by
any attempts to destroy it by hammering it against a wall or dropping it
into a deep well or any other means whatsoever and moreover asserts
that you indicate your acceptance of this agreement or any other
agreement that may he substituted at any time by coming within
five miles of the product or observing it through large telescopes or
by any other means because you are such an easily cowed moron
who will happily accept arrogant and unilateral conditions on a piece
of highly priced garbage that you would not dream of accepting on a
bag of dog biscuits and is used solely at your own risk.'

"Backlash" wrote in message ...
Would you mind posting some pics to

http://photobucket.com/ or to the dropbox

for all interested to see?


I picked a few out of what I have on my PC with me. I have a bunch
more at home. This covers the basic structure.

Pic 13 shows the beginning of the wall before the bracing is
installed.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_013.jpg

This shows the wall a little higher and the bracing installed for the
first stage.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_022.jpg

A look down the wall from the top before it is filled with cement.
The PVC that can be seen near the bottom of the wall is for running
wiring, water, etc. The rebar can be seen at this point too. There
is also vertical bars dropped in every 2 feet to form a 2x2 grid of
rebar.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_029.jpg

Getting ready to do the first pour. That cement pump is an amazing
machine. The operator has a remote control that can do just about
everything except drive the machine down the road.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_031.jpg

Complete walls ready for the final(2nd) pour. All of the doors are
framed properly. The walls are braced and straight.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_079.jpg

Any more questions, drop me a line.

JW

On 28 Jan 2004 06:14:19 -0800, (Jeridiah) brought
forth from the murky depths:

Complete walls ready for the final(2nd) pour. All of the doors are
framed properly. The walls are braced and straight.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_079.jpg

Any more questions, drop me a line.

The building looked small next to the concrete pump truck in one
pic, but now that it's up, I see just how huge it really is.

Is it just the angle of the pictures, or is that sitting in a
hole? The drainage angles are scary in the photos. =:0


----------------------------------------------
CAUTION: Driver Legally B l o n d (e)
http://www.diversify.com Web Database Development
================================================== =====

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

While you're hanging out, check this link. http://rastra.com/

It's a leave-in-place foam/cement block that is almost unique ( a couple of
copycat blocks have appeared recently). Unlike any other foam block, this
one has a 4 hour fire rating and has a very high R value, something like an
R30.

Interesting stuff. The one I posted about creates a five layer
structu Exterior finsh(I used stucco), foam, reinforced concrete,
foam, interior finish. The foam layers are about 2.5" thick. One
significant factor here is that the concrete is insulated form the
outside temperature and has a HUGE thermal mass. In consequence it
takes a long time for the shopt temperature to change. I light the
heater pilot in the fall and shut it down in the spring. The other day
a switch on the thermostat failed so the heater didn't come on anytime
between about 4pm one day until about 10am the next. Shop temperature
dropped from 70F to 55F in that time. Overnight low was about -5C
(23F).

Ted

Jeridiah, thanks man, that was pretty interesting.

RJ

"Jeridiah" wrote in message
om...
"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Would you mind posting some pics to

http://photobucket.com/ or to the dropbox

for all interested to see?


I picked a few out of what I have on my PC with me. I have a bunch
more at home. This covers the basic structure.

Pic 13 shows the beginning of the wall before the bracing is
installed.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_013.jpg

This shows the wall a little higher and the bracing installed for the
first stage.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_022.jpg

A look down the wall from the top before it is filled with cement.
The PVC that can be seen near the bottom of the wall is for running
wiring, water, etc. The rebar can be seen at this point too. There
is also vertical bars dropped in every 2 feet to form a 2x2 grid of
rebar.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_029.jpg

Getting ready to do the first pour. That cement pump is an amazing
machine. The operator has a remote control that can do just about
everything except drive the machine down the road.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_031.jpg

Complete walls ready for the final(2nd) pour. All of the doors are
framed properly. The walls are braced and straight.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_079.jpg

Any more questions, drop me a line.

JW

Is it just the angle of the pictures, or is that sitting in a
hole? The drainage angles are scary in the photos. =:0

Might be the angle, because it is pretty close to flat. I think there
was something like 2 foot of drop across the entire site when I
started. For reference, it is 40 ft deep x 48 ft wide x 16 ft height.

I ran 4" perf pipe all the way around the footing and off to a nearby
tileline to keep any water that would collect headed away from the
buidling.

One thing I highly recommend. Install a "deadman" in the floor if you are
pouring a slab. They are great for straightening chassis, trailer tongues,
etc. Install a 1/2" - 3/4" u-bolt or loop in a metal recessed box with lid,
so floor is flat. Just drill a finger hole. Make sure box is large enough
for chain, hands, etc. Got this idea and a lot of great others from a
booklet of old shop articles out of Progressive Farmer mag. called All-Time
Great Farm Shops.
see
http://www.progressivefarmer.com/far...322463,00.html

--
Ted Walker
" Jack of all trades, master of none" , but still working on it!


"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Jeridiah, thanks man, that was pretty interesting.

RJ

"Jeridiah" wrote in message
om...
"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Would you mind posting some pics to

http://photobucket.com/ or to the dropbox

for all interested to see?


I picked a few out of what I have on my PC with me. I have a bunch
more at home. This covers the basic structure.

Pic 13 shows the beginning of the wall before the bracing is
installed.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_013.jpg

This shows the wall a little higher and the bracing installed for the
first stage.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_022.jpg

A look down the wall from the top before it is filled with cement.
The PVC that can be seen near the bottom of the wall is for running
wiring, water, etc. The rebar can be seen at this point too. There
is also vertical bars dropped in every 2 feet to form a 2x2 grid of
rebar.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_029.jpg

Getting ready to do the first pour. That cement pump is an amazing
machine. The operator has a remote control that can do just about
everything except drive the machine down the road.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_031.jpg

Complete walls ready for the final(2nd) pour. All of the doors are
framed properly. The walls are braced and straight.
http://img17.photobucket.com/albums/...icture_079.jpg

Any more questions, drop me a line.

JW

One thing I highly recommend. Install a "deadman" in the floor if you are
pouring a slab. They are great for straightening chassis, trailer tongues,
etc. Install a 1/2" - 3/4" u-bolt or loop in a metal recessed box with lid,

Did that. Put in 3 actually. Two in a straght line(obviously) across
from each other and parallel to the middle door, and one off by itself
in the middle of the floor. Haven't used them yet, but can see where
they would be very useful.

Highly recommend putting in a loft. It will save you a lot of floor
space and gain a lot of storage space. I have a full depth loft that
is 16' wide. With the 16' sidewall I have about 8' clearance under
and 6'10" over. This was the reason I went for the 16' sidewall. It
added very little to the overall cost of the building and yielded me
w/ ~30% more effective floor space. I have 2 rows of 4' wide
industrial racks with 2 shelves. More shelf space than a sane person
should need....

JW

On 30 Jan 2004 05:57:34 -0800, (Jeridiah) wrote:

| One thing I highly recommend. Install a "deadman" in the floor if you are
| pouring a slab. They are great for straightening chassis, trailer tongues,
| etc. Install a 1/2" - 3/4" u-bolt or loop in a metal recessed box with lid,
|
|Did that. Put in 3 actually. Two in a straght line(obviously) across
|from each other and parallel to the middle door, and one off by itself
|in the middle of the floor. Haven't used them yet, but can see where
|they would be very useful.
|
|Highly recommend putting in a loft. It will save you a lot of floor
|space and gain a lot of storage space. I have a full depth loft that
|is 16' wide. With the 16' sidewall I have about 8' clearance under
|and 6'10" over. This was the reason I went for the 16' sidewall. It
|added very little to the overall cost of the building and yielded me
|w/ ~30% more effective floor space. I have 2 rows of 4' wide
|industrial racks with 2 shelves. More shelf space than a sane person
|should need....

Use open grid flooring for the loft so it won't accumulate dirt.
Rex in Fort Worth

I built an ICF house 5 years ago and love it. I used REWARD system
which has R-38 in the walls. Had a Mennonite group build it for me.
They €˜framed it and closed it in and then turned it over to me. I
have done almost everything else myself - plumbing, wiring
flooring.... Oh, forgot - moved the machinery in !

The house is out in the country (central Ohio) and I have a natural
gasline running across the property so I heat with gas. The house
itself is about 4000 sq ft plus a full basement with drive out doors -
2 4x8 walk doors. I can drive my PU into the basement and close the
doors. This is where I have my maching shop - Bridgie, lathe,
woodworking equipment, etc. I used to have my shop in the garage at
the old house and in winter I could not work out there due to the
cold. Plus you have the condensation problem. The only problem I have
when I cut heavy and generate smoke is the smell it generates. So I
put a hose next to the cutter and run it to an exhaust extractor to
suck the smoke and smell outside.

I have 9 foot ceilings all 3 floors and used very large oversize Eagle
Windows (highly recommended - 5/8 inch between the glass and cost 20%
less than Anderson and their 1/2 inch gap). I also installed R-38
insulation in the ceiling of the second floor.

The attached garage is 36x48 with an 18x8 and an 18x10 overhead door.
The ceiling is 11 feet and I insulated the ceiling with R30. The
garage is ICF also and I dont heat it.

The first year I was in the house we had a very cold snap during the
winter and I heard people I work with complaining about their
nightmarish heating bills at their homes for that month - $800 to
$1000 ! I was in fear for my life, as I had not gotten my bill yet.
When it came I didnt want to open the envelope. It was $352 for the
month. I was pleased, considering I had the T-Stat set at about 70.
Since then I have never had a bill that high. Oh, yeah, that included
my gas hot water, which is a recirculating system that costs me on the
average $35 per month and Im the only one here, no women taking long
baths.

The garage, as I mentioned, is not heated and does get chilly in the
winter but by March the temperature in the garage has only gone down
to about 40 degrees. I have to admit that I dont use the garage for
cars yet and the overhead doors are rarely open. If I need to work on
a car in it, I have a propane torpedo heater I use for spot heat. I
have some 2 inch styrofoam that I will insulate the doors with to help
the winter chilling problem.

I had the builder install four 2 inch sleeves from the basement to the
garage so I could run electricals, water, air, plumbing for a
urinal....

I also had the excavator dig a 3 foot square hole, 9 feet deep in one
of the bays and dropped a 3 foot diameter plastic field tile into it
and backfilled with gravel around it. Then I poured the floor and as
they were finishing the crete, I put a 2x4 in it at grade level to
provide for a trough after it set up. I pulled it out and was able to
lay a pipe in it to the air compressor. I dropped my gas station lift
into the hole and plumbed it and poured grout into the trough. The
tile stuck up over the floor and I cut it flush with a carpenters saw
before I installed the lift. I hung the lift in the hole with a cherry
picker engine hoist to the right height and filled the hole with dry
sand.

Anyway, the ICF structure is THE WAY TO GO ! If I build another house
(or shop) I will definitely use it again.






On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:02:22 -0500, "Backlash"
wrote:

Jeridiah, could you explain more about the insulated concrete forms? pics,
website, maybe? Being in the south, that's not an item we would normally use
around here. I've seen the ones used to pour basements and such, then left
in place. I would assume they are integral to the flow of the building so
they don't protrude from the slab, etc? What would protect them from string
trimmers, lawn mowers, and such?

RJ

Depending on your heat loads, etc I would look at insulated concrete
forms. Effective R rating of around 45.

"jim" wrote in message ...
Backlash wrote:


I'm sure that some people just starting out in the workshop scene could
find
this very informative.

Also, thanks Guys and Gals, for the insights and ideas I have personally
received from this NG so far. Let the local farmers sit around the
heater at
the country store. I'll hang out here with you guys.

RJ
make sure you overdo the electric power to he building... you are always
gonna need more power over the years when some new tool comes home if
you dont have it now, plan for it in the future.. wire is cheap?? now,
so they say, well wait 20 yrs from now and you will be saying i could
have that darn thing wired for x number of dollars way back when, but i
put it off and figured it could get it done when needed, and it now cost
XXXX dollars to do it...


Like the 600 amp 480 volt system I just installed in my new shop ( I did
re-rate the switchboard down from 800 amp it was hard enough bending the
dual run 350 kcmil wire as it was! ) Now I have to run the tons of conduit
all over the place. I did get a 225 amp bus duct system to run down the
back wall of the shop. In the long run it should make my job faster and
changes will be painless.

William

www.wacworkshop.com

In article igeTb.204404$xy6.1051521@attbi_s02, wac@_nospam_gene-o-
tech.com says...
Like the 600 amp 480 volt system I just installed in my new shop ( I did
re-rate the switchboard down from 800 amp it was hard enough bending the
dual run 350 kcmil wire as it was! ) Now I have to run the tons of conduit
all over the place. I did get a 225 amp bus duct system to run down the
back wall of the shop. In the long run it should make my job faster and
changes will be painless.

William

www.wacworkshop.com


Wow! Now this is some serious power!

Rex B scribed in
:

Use open grid flooring for the loft so it won't accumulate dirt.

oh riiiight, then all the **** can fall on the machines below?

Rex in Fort Worth
swarf, steam and wind

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