Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a good
discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs, auto
repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed, what
materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why? What
niceties would you install if you were building your ultimate workshop?
Phone, intercom, satellite TV, 25 disc cd changer, surround sound,
microwave, fridge, water supply, bathroom, alarm system, in-floor bike lift,
welding vent hood, hoist monorail are some of the things in use in the old
one, for example.
Present workshop is concrete block with no wall insulation, vinyl siding
on the outside. Insulated celotex ceiling. ( moderate climate) It has
served me well for 23 years, even surviving a high level flood with a racing
current going by, when my home didn't make it. This was due in part to
threaded clamping rods running from concrete up through the blocks and top
plate every 4 feet. Due to a new location, flooding is no longer an issue.
Hurricanes are. This construction won't be used again, due to insulation
issues, and my next shop WILL be toasty and cool as needed. I was younger
and poorer then. I am already well versed in building and uses of building
materials, and have some ideas in mind. If anyone wishes to participate, we
might all come out with some good concepts. This is open to inclusion of any
item that might be used in or on a workshop, tools and subsystems included.
I'm sure that some people just starting out in the workshop scene could find
this very informative.

Also, thanks Guys and Gals, for the insights and ideas I have personally
received from this NG so far. Let the local farmers sit around the heater at
the country store. I'll hang out here with you guys.

RJ

Backlash wrote:

Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a good
discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs, auto
repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed, what
materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why? What
niceties would you install if you were building your ultimate workshop?
Phone, intercom, satellite TV, 25 disc cd changer, surround sound,
microwave, fridge, water supply, bathroom, alarm system, in-floor bike lift,
welding vent hood, hoist monorail are some of the things in use in the old
one, for example.
Present workshop is concrete block with no wall insulation, vinyl siding
on the outside. Insulated celotex ceiling. ( moderate climate) It has
served me well for 23 years, even surviving a high level flood with a racing
current going by, when my home didn't make it. This was due in part to
threaded clamping rods running from concrete up through the blocks and top
plate every 4 feet. Due to a new location, flooding is no longer an issue.
Hurricanes are. This construction won't be used again, due to insulation
issues, and my next shop WILL be toasty and cool as needed. I was younger
and poorer then. I am already well versed in building and uses of building
materials, and have some ideas in mind. If anyone wishes to participate, we
might all come out with some good concepts. This is open to inclusion of any
item that might be used in or on a workshop, tools and subsystems included.
I'm sure that some people just starting out in the workshop scene could find
this very informative.

Also, thanks Guys and Gals, for the insights and ideas I have personally
received from this NG so far. Let the local farmers sit around the heater at
the country store. I'll hang out here with you guys.

RJ
make sure you overdo the electric power to he building... you are always
gonna need more power over the years when some new tool comes home if
you dont have it now, plan for it in the future.. wire is cheap?? now,
so they say, well wait 20 yrs from now and you will be saying i could
have that darn thing wired for x number of dollars way back when, but i
put it off and figured it could get it done when needed, and it now cost
XXXX dollars to do it...

Even better than extra wire is extra large conduit or even spare
empty conduit. Then you can put in whatever you want later.

jim wrote:

Backlash wrote:

Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a good
discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs, auto
repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed, what
materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why? What
niceties would you install if you were building your ultimate workshop?
Phone, intercom, satellite TV, 25 disc cd changer, surround sound,
microwave, fridge, water supply, bathroom, alarm system, in-floor bike lift,
welding vent hood, hoist monorail are some of the things in use in the old
one, for example.
Present workshop is concrete block with no wall insulation, vinyl siding
on the outside. Insulated celotex ceiling. ( moderate climate) It has
served me well for 23 years, even surviving a high level flood with a racing
current going by, when my home didn't make it. This was due in part to
threaded clamping rods running from concrete up through the blocks and top
plate every 4 feet. Due to a new location, flooding is no longer an issue.
Hurricanes are. This construction won't be used again, due to insulation
issues, and my next shop WILL be toasty and cool as needed. I was younger
and poorer then. I am already well versed in building and uses of building
materials, and have some ideas in mind. If anyone wishes to participate, we
might all come out with some good concepts. This is open to inclusion of any
item that might be used in or on a workshop, tools and subsystems included.
I'm sure that some people just starting out in the workshop scene could find
this very informative.

Also, thanks Guys and Gals, for the insights and ideas I have personally
received from this NG so far. Let the local farmers sit around the heater at
the country store. I'll hang out here with you guys.

RJ

make sure you overdo the electric power to he building... you are always
gonna need more power over the years when some new tool comes home if
you dont have it now, plan for it in the future.. wire is cheap?? now,
so they say, well wait 20 yrs from now and you will be saying i could
have that darn thing wired for x number of dollars way back when, but i
put it off and figured it could get it done when needed, and it now cost
XXXX dollars to do it...

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a
good
discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs,
auto
repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed,
what
materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why?

If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
I'd go for a 200 amp service.
Hopefully I'll be able to build my shop in the next couple of years.
Right now the basement is being used as a shop. Check out my web site.

www.kingstonemodeleng.com

Regards,
Bernd

I was at least wise enough to figure that one out on the old shop. I
installed a 200 amp service on it, with conduit circuit runs, and I have
never regretted it. I've now got a welder alone that calls for a 95 amp
circuit. I'm beginning to think related to electrical service that "Some is
good, more is better, and too much is just enough"

RJ

"jim" wrote in message ...
Backlash wrote:

Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a good
discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs, auto
repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed, what
materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why? What
niceties would you install if you were building your ultimate workshop?
Phone, intercom, satellite TV, 25 disc cd changer, surround sound,
microwave, fridge, water supply, bathroom, alarm system, in-floor bike
lift,
welding vent hood, hoist monorail are some of the things in use in the
old
one, for example.
Present workshop is concrete block with no wall insulation, vinyl
siding
on the outside. Insulated celotex ceiling. ( moderate climate) It has
served me well for 23 years, even surviving a high level flood with a
racing
current going by, when my home didn't make it. This was due in part to
threaded clamping rods running from concrete up through the blocks and
top
plate every 4 feet. Due to a new location, flooding is no longer an
issue.
Hurricanes are. This construction won't be used again, due to insulation
issues, and my next shop WILL be toasty and cool as needed. I was
younger
and poorer then. I am already well versed in building and uses of
building
materials, and have some ideas in mind. If anyone wishes to participate,
we
might all come out with some good concepts. This is open to inclusion of
any
item that might be used in or on a workshop, tools and subsystems
included.
I'm sure that some people just starting out in the workshop scene could
find
this very informative.

Also, thanks Guys and Gals, for the insights and ideas I have personally
received from this NG so far. Let the local farmers sit around the
heater at
the country store. I'll hang out here with you guys.

RJ
make sure you overdo the electric power to he building... you are always
gonna need more power over the years when some new tool comes home if
you dont have it now, plan for it in the future.. wire is cheap?? now,
so they say, well wait 20 yrs from now and you will be saying i could
have that darn thing wired for x number of dollars way back when, but i
put it off and figured it could get it done when needed, and it now cost
XXXX dollars to do it...

Very true. I just finished building a carport onto the rear of my house, and
during the concrete pour, an empty conduit was added to be able to run hard
line phone, cable, intercom, and network cable through the pad to later run
to the future shop. That got me 32 feet without digging. I may also look at
a subpanel or two in the shop, instead of doing home runs on everything. I
have an old 5 hp, 3 ph motor that takes two men to pick up, to replace the
modern lighter one on my still un-used homebrew phase converter. Any
thoughts on this and the subpanels?

RJ

"Roy J" wrote in message
...
Even better than extra wire is extra large conduit or even spare
empty conduit. Then you can put in whatever you want later.

jim wrote:

Backlash wrote:

Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a good
discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs, auto
repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed, what
materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why? What
niceties would you install if you were building your ultimate workshop?
Phone, intercom, satellite TV, 25 disc cd changer, surround sound,
microwave, fridge, water supply, bathroom, alarm system, in-floor bike
lift,
welding vent hood, hoist monorail are some of the things in use in the
old
one, for example.
Present workshop is concrete block with no wall insulation, vinyl
siding
on the outside. Insulated celotex ceiling. ( moderate climate) It has
served me well for 23 years, even surviving a high level flood with a
racing
current going by, when my home didn't make it. This was due in part to
threaded clamping rods running from concrete up through the blocks and
top
plate every 4 feet. Due to a new location, flooding is no longer an
issue.
Hurricanes are. This construction won't be used again, due to insulation
issues, and my next shop WILL be toasty and cool as needed. I was
younger
and poorer then. I am already well versed in building and uses of
building
materials, and have some ideas in mind. If anyone wishes to participate,
we
might all come out with some good concepts. This is open to inclusion of
any
item that might be used in or on a workshop, tools and subsystems
included.
I'm sure that some people just starting out in the workshop scene could
find
this very informative.

Also, thanks Guys and Gals, for the insights and ideas I have personally
received from this NG so far. Let the local farmers sit around the
heater at
the country store. I'll hang out here with you guys.

RJ

make sure you overdo the electric power to he building... you are always
gonna need more power over the years when some new tool comes home if
you dont have it now, plan for it in the future.. wire is cheap?? now,
so they say, well wait 20 yrs from now and you will be saying i could
have that darn thing wired for x number of dollars way back when, but i
put it off and figured it could get it done when needed, and it now cost
XXXX dollars to do it...

I've been researching that subject, and it sounds mighty sweet. My only
issue is that I have a nice Hilti anchor drill, and I ain't afraid to use
it! G Luckily, my compressors were bolted down during the flood. Still
considering it though. How expensive is the radiant heat to operate in fuel
costs? Thinking about a gas pack for quick heat, with radiant for more
extended work periods. Thanks.

RJ

"Bernd" wrote in message
...

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a
good
discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs,
auto
repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed,
what
materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why?

If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
I'd go for a 200 amp service.
Hopefully I'll be able to build my shop in the next couple of years.
Right now the basement is being used as a shop. Check out my web site.

www.kingstonemodeleng.com

Regards,
Bernd

Bernd, thanks for the shop tour. That looks like a nice, comfortable place
for your type of hobby, for sure. I considered downsizing mine. Instead, I
think I'll build larger this time. G

RJ

"Bernd" wrote in message
...

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a
good
discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs,
auto
repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed,
what
materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why?

If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
I'd go for a 200 amp service.
Hopefully I'll be able to build my shop in the next couple of years.
Right now the basement is being used as a shop. Check out my web site.

www.kingstonemodeleng.com

Regards,
Bernd

Bernd, what type of water heating unit is that in your basement corner?

RJ

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
I've been researching that subject, and it sounds mighty sweet. My only
issue is that I have a nice Hilti anchor drill, and I ain't afraid to use
it! G Luckily, my compressors were bolted down during the flood. Still
considering it though. How expensive is the radiant heat to operate in
fuel
costs? Thinking about a gas pack for quick heat, with radiant for more
extended work periods. Thanks.

RJ

"Bernd" wrote in message
...

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a
good
discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs,
auto
repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed,
what
materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why?

If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
I'd go for a 200 amp service.
Hopefully I'll be able to build my shop in the next couple of years.
Right now the basement is being used as a shop. Check out my web site.

www.kingstonemodeleng.com

Regards,
Bernd

If you want to be really "ultimate" what about a geothermal heatpump?
For a shop-sized building, it'd probably be just pennies to run per month.


Backlash wrote:
I've been researching that subject, and it sounds mighty sweet. My only
issue is that I have a nice Hilti anchor drill, and I ain't afraid to use
it! G Luckily, my compressors were bolted down during the flood. Still
considering it though. How expensive is the radiant heat to operate in fuel
costs? Thinking about a gas pack for quick heat, with radiant for more
extended work periods. Thanks.

RJ

"Bernd" wrote in message
...

"Backlash" wrote in message
...

Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a

good

discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs,

auto

repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed,

what

materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why?

If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
I'd go for a 200 amp service.
Hopefully I'll be able to build my shop in the next couple of years.
Right now the basement is being used as a shop. Check out my web site.

www.kingstonemodeleng.com

Regards,
Bernd

Ultimate, but economically feasable might be a better way to describe
thingsG A well here has to go to an aquifer about 160 feet down, from
what I'm told, and the well drilling expense alone for my present one that
originally fed the mobile home behind me was around $600 or so twelve years
ago. I already have a 4 month old 3 1/2 ton standard package type heat pump
I got in a trade that is a consideration. Good suggestions. Keep 'em coming.

RJ

"PhysicsGenius" wrote in message
...
If you want to be really "ultimate" what about a geothermal heatpump?
For a shop-sized building, it'd probably be just pennies to run per month.


Backlash wrote:
I've been researching that subject, and it sounds mighty sweet. My only
issue is that I have a nice Hilti anchor drill, and I ain't afraid to
use
it! G Luckily, my compressors were bolted down during the flood. Still
considering it though. How expensive is the radiant heat to operate in
fuel
costs? Thinking about a gas pack for quick heat, with radiant for more
extended work periods. Thanks.

RJ

"Bernd" wrote in message
...

"Backlash" wrote in message
...

Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a

good

discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs,

auto

repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed,

what

materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why?

If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
I'd go for a 200 amp service.
Hopefully I'll be able to build my shop in the next couple of years.
Right now the basement is being used as a shop. Check out my web site.

www.kingstonemodeleng.com

Regards,
Bernd

If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
I'd go for a 200 amp service.


There are a number of advantages to radiant floors.
Cold floors can also be a source of condensation. I have had mine covered in
water in the past.
Installing underfloor heating forces you to insulate the floor.
You don't loose any wall space for radiators or blowers etc.
Downside is that it takes a long time to warm up.

John

If you already have a heat pump, it's probably not worth it. However,
IIRC, I don't think you need to get down to groundwater for a geothermal
heat pump. In fact, I think it works as shallow as 10 ft (loop type).
But it's been a while since I looked at it.

Backlash wrote:
Ultimate, but economically feasable might be a better way to describe
thingsG A well here has to go to an aquifer about 160 feet down, from
what I'm told, and the well drilling expense alone for my present one that
originally fed the mobile home behind me was around $600 or so twelve years
ago. I already have a 4 month old 3 1/2 ton standard package type heat pump
I got in a trade that is a consideration. Good suggestions. Keep 'em coming.

RJ

"PhysicsGenius" wrote in message
...

If you want to be really "ultimate" what about a geothermal heatpump?
For a shop-sized building, it'd probably be just pennies to run per month.


Backlash wrote:

I've been researching that subject, and it sounds mighty sweet. My only
issue is that I have a nice Hilti anchor drill, and I ain't afraid to

use

it! G Luckily, my compressors were bolted down during the flood. Still
considering it though. How expensive is the radiant heat to operate in

fuel

costs? Thinking about a gas pack for quick heat, with radiant for more
extended work periods. Thanks.

RJ

"Bernd" wrote in message
...


"Backlash" wrote in message
...


Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a

good


discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs,

auto


repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed,

what


materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why?

If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
I'd go for a 200 amp service.
Hopefully I'll be able to build my shop in the next couple of years.
Right now the basement is being used as a shop. Check out my web site.

www.kingstonemodeleng.com

Regards,
Bernd

Is anyone on the NG using solar collectors in addition to a radiant heat
system? My roof will be oriented so that the sun will be on one side of the
roof slope for a lot of the day. The thought crossed my mind that this
method might conserve energy, dependent on cost, or serve somewhat as a
"preheat" for the system. I once read Mother Earth News, and in it there was
a shop water heater made out of an old refrigerator mounted on the south
shop wall in a horizontal position so that the door could be opened to the
proper angle, with coils in it, to act as a solar collector. A water tank
behind plastic glazing was in the box. The door was shut during the night
hours to conserve absorbed heat for the next day.

RJ

"John Manders" wrote in message
...
If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
I'd go for a 200 amp service.


There are a number of advantages to radiant floors.
Cold floors can also be a source of condensation. I have had mine covered
in
water in the past.
Installing underfloor heating forces you to insulate the floor.
You don't loose any wall space for radiators or blowers etc.
Downside is that it takes a long time to warm up.

John

I guess that would make sense, because once you get down so far below the
frost line, isn't the temp around 55 degrees? That way, you would only have
to boost it 15 degrees for a nice temp. There once was an air intake system
known as earth tubes that used convoluted plastic pipe through the ground as
an air intake/loop for a furnace to do something similar, but people
complained that it smelled "earthy".

RJ

"PhysicsGenius" wrote in message
...
If you already have a heat pump, it's probably not worth it. However,
IIRC, I don't think you need to get down to groundwater for a geothermal
heat pump. In fact, I think it works as shallow as 10 ft (loop type).
But it's been a while since I looked at it.

Backlash wrote:
Ultimate, but economically feasable might be a better way to describe
thingsG A well here has to go to an aquifer about 160 feet down, from
what I'm told, and the well drilling expense alone for my present one
that
originally fed the mobile home behind me was around $600 or so twelve
years
ago. I already have a 4 month old 3 1/2 ton standard package type heat
pump
I got in a trade that is a consideration. Good suggestions. Keep 'em
coming.

RJ

"PhysicsGenius" wrote in message
...

If you want to be really "ultimate" what about a geothermal heatpump?
For a shop-sized building, it'd probably be just pennies to run per
month.


Backlash wrote:

I've been researching that subject, and it sounds mighty sweet. My only
issue is that I have a nice Hilti anchor drill, and I ain't afraid to

use

it! G Luckily, my compressors were bolted down during the flood.
Still
considering it though. How expensive is the radiant heat to operate in

fuel

costs? Thinking about a gas pack for quick heat, with radiant for more
extended work periods. Thanks.

RJ

"Bernd" wrote in message
...


"Backlash" wrote in message
...


Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a

good


discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs,

auto


repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed,

what


materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why?

If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
I'd go for a 200 amp service.
Hopefully I'll be able to build my shop in the next couple of years.
Right now the basement is being used as a shop. Check out my web site.

www.kingstonemodeleng.com

Regards,
Bernd

" it! G Luckily, my compressors were bolted down during the flood.
Still
considering it though. How expensive is the radiant heat to operate in fuel
costs? Thinking about a gas pack for quick heat, with radiant for more
extended work periods. Thanks.


Depending on your heat loads, etc I would look at insulated concrete
forms. Effective R rating of around 45.

I went with the radiant heat on that as well. Just a large electric
water heater for a heat source. The advantage of electric is not
having to vent(in or out), which is a savings for heat loss. I went
with off peak electricity at a rate $0.03/kwh. It's running me about
$100/mo right now and it is REALLY cold outside. Been near zero or
less for the last week or two. I keep my shop set at 45, which seems
like it would be cold, but if I start doing anything at all I start
peeling off layers as I am too warm. That's the really nice thing
about radiant heat, since your feet stay warm and everything in the
building is warm it feels warmer than similar forced air temperatures.

The systems they use now a) use water (or water+glycol) cirulation and
b) are closed so no earthy smell (not that I speak from firsthand
experience). It also provides cooling in the summer, some of which heat
can be dumped to your water heater for free hot water. That doesn't
apply to a shop, I'm just saying.

I looked into this when I had to replace the 60's era oil burner in my
"new" house. The main reason I didn't go with it is that there appeared
to be no one in the area that did it. Naturally less than a year later
there was a huge article in the local paper about a nearby company that
was going great guns with this "new-fangled geothermal heat pump thing"
and had been for some years. Bah.

Backlash wrote:
I guess that would make sense, because once you get down so far below the
frost line, isn't the temp around 55 degrees? That way, you would only have
to boost it 15 degrees for a nice temp. There once was an air intake system
known as earth tubes that used convoluted plastic pipe through the ground as
an air intake/loop for a furnace to do something similar, but people
complained that it smelled "earthy".

RJ

"PhysicsGenius" wrote in message
...

If you already have a heat pump, it's probably not worth it. However,
IIRC, I don't think you need to get down to groundwater for a geothermal
heat pump. In fact, I think it works as shallow as 10 ft (loop type).
But it's been a while since I looked at it.

Backlash wrote:

Ultimate, but economically feasable might be a better way to describe
thingsG A well here has to go to an aquifer about 160 feet down, from
what I'm told, and the well drilling expense alone for my present one

that

originally fed the mobile home behind me was around $600 or so twelve

years

ago. I already have a 4 month old 3 1/2 ton standard package type heat

pump

I got in a trade that is a consideration. Good suggestions. Keep 'em

coming.

RJ

"PhysicsGenius" wrote in message
...


If you want to be really "ultimate" what about a geothermal heatpump?
For a shop-sized building, it'd probably be just pennies to run per

month.


Backlash wrote:


I've been researching that subject, and it sounds mighty sweet. My only
issue is that I have a nice Hilti anchor drill, and I ain't afraid to

use


it! G Luckily, my compressors were bolted down during the flood.

Still

considering it though. How expensive is the radiant heat to operate in

fuel


costs? Thinking about a gas pack for quick heat, with radiant for more
extended work periods. Thanks.

RJ

"Bernd" wrote in message
...



"Backlash" wrote in message
...



Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a

good



discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs,

auto



repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed,

what



materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why?

If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
I'd go for a 200 amp service.
Hopefully I'll be able to build my shop in the next couple of years.
Right now the basement is being used as a shop. Check out my web site.

www.kingstonemodeleng.com

Regards,
Bernd

Jeridiah, could you explain more about the insulated concrete forms? pics,
website, maybe? Being in the south, that's not an item we would normally use
around here. I've seen the ones used to pour basements and such, then left
in place. I would assume they are integral to the flow of the building so
they don't protrude from the slab, etc? What would protect them from string
trimmers, lawn mowers, and such?

RJ

"Jeridiah" wrote in message
om...
" it! G Luckily, my compressors were bolted down during the flood.
Still
considering it though. How expensive is the radiant heat to operate in
fuel
costs? Thinking about a gas pack for quick heat, with radiant for more
extended work periods. Thanks.


Depending on your heat loads, etc I would look at insulated concrete
forms. Effective R rating of around 45.

I went with the radiant heat on that as well. Just a large electric
water heater for a heat source. The advantage of electric is not
having to vent(in or out), which is a savings for heat loss. I went
with off peak electricity at a rate $0.03/kwh. It's running me about
$100/mo right now and it is REALLY cold outside. Been near zero or
less for the last week or two. I keep my shop set at 45, which seems
like it would be cold, but if I start doing anything at all I start
peeling off layers as I am too warm. That's the really nice thing
about radiant heat, since your feet stay warm and everything in the
building is warm it feels warmer than similar forced air temperatures.

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:03:43 -0800, Backlash wrote
(in message ):

Sounds more like a playroom than a shop BG. A hoist monorail is good, a
bridge crane is better. On electrical; don't put in duplex recepticals,
instead use four-squares (Or pairs of duplexes) and split them (i.e. top on
one breaker, bottom on different breaker). Also I put all outlets at 52"
above the floor. This gives greater flexibility on tool placement as the cord
comes out of most floor tools at that height. Also saves a lot of bending
over.

I'm sure you already know this, but good lighting is essential.
No workbenches against the walls. Wallspace should be filled with drawers and
benches against walls collect "Stuff" to the point you don't have any
workspace.
Fire extinguishers and fire exits.
Battery powered emergency lights (I found out the hard way on this one).

Just some random thoughts.

Roger in Vegas
Worlds Greatest Impulse Buyer

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:54:28 -0500, "Backlash" wrote:

|I've been researching that subject, and it sounds mighty sweet. My only
|issue is that I have a nice Hilti anchor drill, and I ain't afraid to use
|it! G Luckily, my compressors were bolted down during the flood. Still
|considering it though. How expensive is the radiant heat to operate in fuel
|costs? Thinking about a gas pack for quick heat, with radiant for more
|extended work periods. Thanks.

SOLAR if your climate makes it feasible! With a small water heater for backup.

| If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
| radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
| cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
| in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
| heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
| water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
| I'd go for a 200 amp service.
| Hopefully I'll be able to build my shop in the next couple of years.
| Right now the basement is being used as a shop. Check out my web site.
|
| www.kingstonemodeleng.com
|
| Regards,
| Bernd
|
|
|
|

Rex in Fort Worth

Plan the roof pitch and orientation for the optimal solar collection angle, so
your panels can lay flat. You could later add PV if desired, for lighting
and/or for running the circulation pump.

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:03:43 -0500, "Backlash" wrote:

|Is anyone on the NG using solar collectors in addition to a radiant heat
|system? My roof will be oriented so that the sun will be on one side of the
|roof slope for a lot of the day. The thought crossed my mind that this
|method might conserve energy, dependent on cost, or serve somewhat as a
|"preheat" for the system. I once read Mother Earth News, and in it there was
|a shop water heater made out of an old refrigerator mounted on the south
|shop wall in a horizontal position so that the door could be opened to the
|proper angle, with coils in it, to act as a solar collector. A water tank
|behind plastic glazing was in the box. The door was shut during the night
|hours to conserve absorbed heat for the next day.
|
|RJ
|
|"John Manders" wrote in message
...
| If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
| radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
| cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
| in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
| heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
| water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
| I'd go for a 200 amp service.
|
|
| There are a number of advantages to radiant floors.
| Cold floors can also be a source of condensation. I have had mine covered
|in
| water in the past.
| Installing underfloor heating forces you to insulate the floor.
| You don't loose any wall space for radiators or blowers etc.
| Downside is that it takes a long time to warm up.
|
| John
|
|
|
|

Rex in Fort Worth

"Backlash" wrote in
:

Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a
good discussion going about shop design and construction In building
a workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs,
auto repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed,
what materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why?
What niceties would you install if you were building your ultimate
workshop? Phone, intercom, satellite TV, 25 disc cd changer, surround
sound, microwave, fridge, water supply, bathroom, alarm system,
in-floor bike lift, welding vent hood, hoist monorail are some of the
things in use in the old one, for example.
Present workshop is concrete block with no wall insulation, vinyl
siding
on the outside. Insulated celotex ceiling. ( moderate climate) It has
served me well for 23 years, even surviving a high level flood with a
racing current going by, when my home didn't make it. This was due in
part to threaded clamping rods running from concrete up through the
blocks and top plate every 4 feet. Due to a new location, flooding is
no longer an issue. Hurricanes are. This construction won't be used
again, due to insulation issues, and my next shop WILL be toasty and
cool as needed. I was younger and poorer then. I am already well
versed in building and uses of building materials, and have some ideas
in mind. If anyone wishes to participate, we might all come out with
some good concepts. This is open to inclusion of any item that might
be used in or on a workshop, tools and subsystems included. I'm sure
that some people just starting out in the workshop scene could find
this very informative.

Also, thanks Guys and Gals, for the insights and ideas I have
personally received from this NG so far. Let the local farmers sit
around the heater at the country store. I'll hang out here with you
guys.

RJ



Requisits: Bathroom, fridge, heat, insulation, air conditioning, stereo
system, more electrical than you would ever think you would need, and
more air connections than you would ever think you would need. A light-
grey epoxy coated floor, WHITE walls/ceiling. and more lights than you
would ever believe.
In our 32x24 shop, we had 144 linear feet of 2 bulb flourescent lighting.
It will make a big difference in how you feel at the end of the day.
One thing we did in our shop that we NEVER regretted, is overhead
recepticals and air lines.
Hose/cord reels are an ace in the hole when working out in the middle of
the shop, and definately more safe than hoses and cords running all along
the floor.
Item 2: Outside compressor. Make a small outbuilding/leanto/shelter for
it located outside the shop.
Acres of pegboard, and plenty of shelving.
A bench or two against a wall for breaks.




--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:16:50 -0500, "Backlash" wrote:

Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a good
discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs, auto
repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed, what
materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why? What
niceties would you install if you were building your ultimate workshop?
Phone, intercom, satellite TV, 25 disc cd changer, surround sound,
microwave, fridge, water supply, bathroom, alarm system, in-floor bike lift,
welding vent hood, hoist monorail are some of the things in use in the old
one, for example.
Present workshop is concrete block with no wall insulation, vinyl siding
on the outside. Insulated celotex ceiling. ( moderate climate) It has
served me well for 23 years, even surviving a high level flood with a racing
current going by, when my home didn't make it. This was due in part to
threaded clamping rods running from concrete up through the blocks and top
plate every 4 feet. Due to a new location, flooding is no longer an issue.
Hurricanes are. This construction won't be used again, due to insulation
issues, and my next shop WILL be toasty and cool as needed. I was younger
and poorer then. I am already well versed in building and uses of building
materials, and have some ideas in mind. If anyone wishes to participate, we
might all come out with some good concepts. This is open to inclusion of any
item that might be used in or on a workshop, tools and subsystems included.
I'm sure that some people just starting out in the workshop scene could find
this very informative.

Also, thanks Guys and Gals, for the insights and ideas I have personally
received from this NG so far. Let the local farmers sit around the heater at
the country store. I'll hang out here with you guys.

RJ


I am currently looking at building a new workshop in the next few months to
house my stuff and some of the stuff inherited from my father. The current
shop is a bolt together concrete garage which is un-insulated and only kept
dry by the 24/7/365 use of a dehumidifier. I can't mend the original without
taking it down and rebuilding it completely, so I'll get the new shop and the
wife will get the rebuilt old shop.

My absolute requirements so far:-

1) Telephone and network access to the house, I currently run three servers in
the garage and they will need to be catered for in the new shop.

2) Floor, walls and roof waterproofed with damp-proof membranes. I will keep
the dehumidifier, but I don't want to collect a gallon and a half of water a
day from it when the weather is wet!

3) Walls and roof insulated with 2"-3" foil fronted polyurethane foam boards.
Floor insulated with 4" expanded polystyrene below the slab. It would be nice
if the heat from the computers were enough to keep the shop above freezing in
the UK winter.

3) Option of heating/air conditioning based on the first year's experience.

4) Carpet tiles on the floor. Both to make it more comfortable and
_importantly_ to prevent things getting damaged when they're dropped.

5) Air compressor in a separate brick enclosure to cut down the problem of me
jumping out of my skin when it starts.

I will almost certainly use another bolt together concrete structure, but I
hope I can build it better than whoever put up the leaky garage 44 years ago.

I am severely limited by the size of my plot and cannot get bigger than 8' 6"'
by 17' 6' internal dimensions. What I have been toying with is the idea of
excavating a basement under the workshop. I reckon that a 6' by 7' by 14'
basement would involve removing a bit more than 30 cubic yards of soil with
the addition of formwork, reinforcing and concrete. The cost might only go up
by 75% of the original price for another 60% of usable space out of the plot.
has anyone done this sort of thing?

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Is anyone on the NG using solar collectors in addition to a radiant heat
system? My roof will be oriented so that the sun will be on one side of
the
roof slope for a lot of the day. The thought crossed my mind that this
method might conserve energy, dependent on cost, or serve somewhat as a
"preheat" for the system. I once read Mother Earth News, and in it there
was
a shop water heater made out of an old refrigerator mounted on the south
shop wall in a horizontal position so that the door could be opened to the
proper angle, with coils in it, to act as a solar collector. A water tank
behind plastic glazing was in the box. The door was shut during the night
hours to conserve absorbed heat for the next day.

RJ


A great book is "Passive Solar Energy", second edition, by Bruce Anderson &
Malcolm Wells. It's easy to read but still has enough information to
correctly size a passive system. Can't beat it.

JTMcC.



"John Manders" wrote in message
...
If you're in a climate that needs heat in the winter I would suggest a
radiant floor heat. There is nothing worse than having a floor that is
cold while working on a vehicle. I know. I have radiant floor heating
in the house but not in the garage. I can warm the garage with a
heater but the floor is still cold. All you would need would be a
water heater and circulating pump. And like "jim" said lot's of power.
I'd go for a 200 amp service.


There are a number of advantages to radiant floors.
Cold floors can also be a source of condensation. I have had mine
covered
in
water in the past.
Installing underfloor heating forces you to insulate the floor.
You don't loose any wall space for radiators or blowers etc.
Downside is that it takes a long time to warm up.

John

RJ,
I am currently building a home using the ARXX system. www.arxxbuild.com
It is going together well and we are very happy with it so far.
If the website does not answer your questions, I might be able to help out.
To answer your question about string trimmers, lawn mowers, etc. - a parge
coat of thinset concrete is installed on the gap between the ground and the
siding.
Regards,
Jim

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Jeridiah, could you explain more about the insulated concrete forms? pics,
website, maybe? Being in the south, that's not an item we would normally
use
around here. I've seen the ones used to pour basements and such, then left
in place. I would assume they are integral to the flow of the building so
they don't protrude from the slab, etc? What would protect them from
string
trimmers, lawn mowers, and such?

RJ

"Jeridiah" wrote in message
om...
" it! G Luckily, my compressors were bolted down during the flood.
Still
considering it though. How expensive is the radiant heat to operate
in
fuel
costs? Thinking about a gas pack for quick heat, with radiant for
more
extended work periods. Thanks.


Depending on your heat loads, etc I would look at insulated concrete
forms. Effective R rating of around 45.

I went with the radiant heat on that as well. Just a large electric
water heater for a heat source. The advantage of electric is not
having to vent(in or out), which is a savings for heat loss. I went
with off peak electricity at a rate $0.03/kwh. It's running me about
$100/mo right now and it is REALLY cold outside. Been near zero or
less for the last week or two. I keep my shop set at 45, which seems
like it would be cold, but if I start doing anything at all I start
peeling off layers as I am too warm. That's the really nice thing
about radiant heat, since your feet stay warm and everything in the
building is warm it feels warmer than similar forced air temperatures.

"PhysicsGenius" wrote in message
...
If you want to be really "ultimate" what about a geothermal heatpump?
For a shop-sized building, it'd probably be just pennies to run per month.

Are they really that efficient? I was under the impression that since a
heat pump uses
the same systems as a air conditioner, it would cost the same to run.

--
http://www.NateTechnologies.net:8000

Backlash wrote:

Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a good
discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs, auto
repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed, what
materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why?

My garage and shop was built with Quad-Lock. This consists of styrofoam
"Lego" blocks placed in two rows 5.5" apart with rebar set in the
plastic separators. Some temporary re-enforcement is added and the
space between the rows filled with concrete. After the concrete has set
up, the temporary re-enforcement is removed. The outside is stuccoed
and the inside gyproc'd. Looks nice is _very_ sturdy and, with the R-40
insulation in the cathedral ceiling, is more than adequately heated in
the Canadian winter with one 32,000BTU/hr radiant heater in each of the
two areas. On 40+Celcius summer days, I open the doors early in the
morning and close them when the temp outside equals temp inside (no
other a/c). Late in the afternoon the temperature is often more than
10C cooler than outside.

More detail by e-mail if you wish. Note what to remove from addy.

Ted

I am in the process of building a new home shop and read all of this
with enthusiasm. I opted for forced air heating in the shop as it is
quick to heat up and turn off while the radiant heat is a slow up and
down process. I will not be working in the shop everyday so intend to
leave the heat off the bulk of the time. I am installing a demand
water heater for the same reason. It will only need energy when I
want hot water. The rest of the time it will be dormant. My entire
shop has been made fork lift accessable so I don't need other types of
lifts though I have installed a trap door to give access to the 6" x
14" header that is centered on one bay. An important thing to
remember in laying out your machines is to put low things like work
benches and horizontal bandsaws, and small lathes in the center of the
shop. Put the tall stuff around the outside and the shop will look
bigger and be more airy to work in. My work area has been designated
an ancillary unit (read mother-in-law unit)on the plans and approved
drawings. The city wouldn't let me build a big workshop. Because this
is actually be constructed as a dwelling I have more then 10% of the
floor area in windows (building code) and I have to put the 110V
receptacles down near the baseboards. 220V single and three phase
will be run later in a waist high band of conduit. That goes in after
final inspection. I did put a pull down ladder/stairway into the loft
and decked a four wide band near high gable with 1" plywood for
industrial steel shelving for storage. Leigh@MarMachine

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:27:33 +0000, Mark Rand
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:16:50 -0500, "Backlash" wrote:

Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a good
discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs, auto
repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed, what
materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why? What
niceties would you install if you were building your ultimate workshop?
Phone, intercom, satellite TV, 25 disc cd changer, surround sound,
microwave, fridge, water supply, bathroom, alarm system, in-floor bike lift,
welding vent hood, hoist monorail are some of the things in use in the old
one, for example.
Present workshop is concrete block with no wall insulation, vinyl siding
on the outside. Insulated celotex ceiling. ( moderate climate) It has
served me well for 23 years, even surviving a high level flood with a racing
current going by, when my home didn't make it. This was due in part to
threaded clamping rods running from concrete up through the blocks and top
plate every 4 feet. Due to a new location, flooding is no longer an issue.
Hurricanes are. This construction won't be used again, due to insulation
issues, and my next shop WILL be toasty and cool as needed. I was younger
and poorer then. I am already well versed in building and uses of building
materials, and have some ideas in mind. If anyone wishes to participate, we
might all come out with some good concepts. This is open to inclusion of any
item that might be used in or on a workshop, tools and subsystems included.
I'm sure that some people just starting out in the workshop scene could find
this very informative.

Also, thanks Guys and Gals, for the insights and ideas I have personally
received from this NG so far. Let the local farmers sit around the heater at
the country store. I'll hang out here with you guys.

RJ


I am currently looking at building a new workshop in the next few months to
house my stuff and some of the stuff inherited from my father. The current
shop is a bolt together concrete garage which is un-insulated and only kept
dry by the 24/7/365 use of a dehumidifier. I can't mend the original without
taking it down and rebuilding it completely, so I'll get the new shop and the
wife will get the rebuilt old shop.

My absolute requirements so far:-

1) Telephone and network access to the house, I currently run three servers in
the garage and they will need to be catered for in the new shop.

2) Floor, walls and roof waterproofed with damp-proof membranes. I will keep
the dehumidifier, but I don't want to collect a gallon and a half of water a
day from it when the weather is wet!

3) Walls and roof insulated with 2"-3" foil fronted polyurethane foam boards.
Floor insulated with 4" expanded polystyrene below the slab. It would be nice
if the heat from the computers were enough to keep the shop above freezing in
the UK winter.

3) Option of heating/air conditioning based on the first year's experience.

4) Carpet tiles on the floor. Both to make it more comfortable and
_importantly_ to prevent things getting damaged when they're dropped.

5) Air compressor in a separate brick enclosure to cut down the problem of me
jumping out of my skin when it starts.

I will almost certainly use another bolt together concrete structure, but I
hope I can build it better than whoever put up the leaky garage 44 years ago.

I am severely limited by the size of my plot and cannot get bigger than 8' 6"'
by 17' 6' internal dimensions. What I have been toying with is the idea of
excavating a basement under the workshop. I reckon that a 6' by 7' by 14'
basement would involve removing a bit more than 30 cubic yards of soil with
the addition of formwork, reinforcing and concrete. The cost might only go up
by 75% of the original price for another 60% of usable space out of the plot.
has anyone done this sort of thing?

Excuse me for inserting my $.02USD here..but given the small size of
your proposed shop..why not expand onto the original structure? Doing
so will not only give you more room, but cost less, as you already
have one or more walls to work with.

On grid paper, lay out the exisiting garage on your property. Look at
the property lines, etc etc..then add shop space around one or more
sides of the exisiting structure until you are within proper distance
of your propery line(s). Doors as needed may be put in the wall(s) of
the exisiting structure, etc etc. Done with a bit of foresight and
planning, it will give you far more room, various spaces to perform
clean or dirty work, storage etc etc and you may use proper
ventilation from the new section to help keep the old section dry.

At most, you only need to construct no more than 3 external walls and
perhaps only two. Basements are very nice..but they do flood, tend to
be humid, and take up valuable floor space for access to the stairs,
unless you live on the side of a hill. Its very hard to move machinery
or long stock down said stairs, and it winds up being used mostly for
storage if you have other shop space. You already have storage in the
old garage. Shrug. The large Tupperware type tubs with snap on lids
work pretty well in humid areas for keeping things moderately dry when
racked on proper shelves.

Just an old rednecks suggestion, worth what you paid for it.

Gunner
"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Bernd, what type of water heating unit is that in your basement
corner?

That is a boiler that the heating place figured out I should have to
the square footage of the house. It is made by Pennco Inc. of
Clarendon, Pa. It's a cast iron boiler about 18" X 24" X 30" high and
supplies heat to about 3,000 linear feet of Pex tubing.
To answer your previous question on how much gas it will use depends
on how well your shop is insulated and how tight it is built. So I
really can't say there.
Hope this has helped.

Regards,
Bernd

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Bernd, thanks for the shop tour. That looks like a nice, comfortable
place
for your type of hobby, for sure. I considered downsizing mine.
Instead, I
think I'll build larger this time. G

The big shop is yet to come. I need to build a large shop to house
that tractor, plus my dune buggy. Included will be a larger metal shop
and woodworking shop. That small shop in the basememnt will be used
for my model railroading activities. Have to finish the house first
before the new shop can be built. If I don't the wife will make me a
eunuch. BG She complains I spent to much time in the shop now.

Bernd

"John Manders" wrote in message
...
Downside is that it takes a long time to warm up.

It'll even take longer without the radiant heat.

On 26 Jan 2004 20:45:41 -0800, (Leigh Knudson)
wrote:

I am in the process of building a new home shop and read all of this
with enthusiasm. I opted for forced air heating in the shop as it is
quick to heat up and turn off while the radiant heat is a slow up and
down process. I will not be working in the shop everyday so intend to
leave the heat off the bulk of the time. I am installing a demand
water heater for the same reason. It will only need energy when I
want hot water. The rest of the time it will be dormant. My entire
shop has been made fork lift accessable so I don't need other types of
lifts though I have installed a trap door to give access to the 6" x
14" header that is centered on one bay. An important thing to
remember in laying out your machines is to put low things like work
benches and horizontal bandsaws, and small lathes in the center of the
shop. Put the tall stuff around the outside and the shop will look
bigger and be more airy to work in. My work area has been designated
an ancillary unit (read mother-in-law unit)on the plans and approved
drawings. The city wouldn't let me build a big workshop. Because this
is actually be constructed as a dwelling I have more then 10% of the
floor area in windows (building code) and I have to put the 110V
receptacles down near the baseboards. 220V single and three phase
will be run later in a waist high band of conduit. That goes in after
final inspection. I did put a pull down ladder/stairway into the loft
and decked a four wide band near high gable with 1" plywood for
industrial steel shelving for storage. Leigh@MarMachine


Just a heads up to those who have not been privileged to see Leigh's
Taj Mahall....its gonna be beeuuttyful.

Gunner

"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

Sounds good, Leigh. All the workbenches in my present shop are at 34"
finished height so that if I am working with long materials, I can just lay
it across the nearest bench that works. I also have a forklift, but over the
years, I have used the monorail hoist more than just about anything else in
the shop, except maybe for the beadblaster. The rail is the way to go for a
one man operation. It keeps you from having to beg for unwilling help in
handling things, yet retain hands-on control of the item. I plan to put some
pics up of the rail as soon as I can.

RJ

"Leigh Knudson" wrote in message
om...
I am in the process of building a new home shop and read all of this
with enthusiasm. I opted for forced air heating in the shop as it is
quick to heat up and turn off while the radiant heat is a slow up and
down process. I will not be working in the shop everyday so intend to
leave the heat off the bulk of the time. I am installing a demand
water heater for the same reason. It will only need energy when I
want hot water. The rest of the time it will be dormant. My entire
shop has been made fork lift accessable so I don't need other types of
lifts though I have installed a trap door to give access to the 6" x
14" header that is centered on one bay. An important thing to
remember in laying out your machines is to put low things like work
benches and horizontal bandsaws, and small lathes in the center of the
shop. Put the tall stuff around the outside and the shop will look
bigger and be more airy to work in. My work area has been designated
an ancillary unit (read mother-in-law unit)on the plans and approved
drawings. The city wouldn't let me build a big workshop. Because this
is actually be constructed as a dwelling I have more then 10% of the
floor area in windows (building code) and I have to put the 110V
receptacles down near the baseboards. 220V single and three phase
will be run later in a waist high band of conduit. That goes in after
final inspection. I did put a pull down ladder/stairway into the loft
and decked a four wide band near high gable with 1" plywood for
industrial steel shelving for storage. Leigh@MarMachine

"Nate Weber" wrote in message ...
"PhysicsGenius" wrote in message
...
If you want to be really "ultimate" what about a geothermal heatpump?
For a shop-sized building, it'd probably be just pennies to run per month.

Are they really that efficient? I was under the impression that since a
heat pump uses
the same systems as a air conditioner, it would cost the same to run.

Geothermal systems are the most efficient system available today. It
always takes less energy to move heat than to generate it. Air source
heat pumps get into trouble when the outside air gets below 32F or
above 90F (for AC). Using ground source, the temp stays in the 32-55F
range. Wells give you a more constant temp, but pumping tens of
thousands of gallons of water out of an aquifer for heating does not
seem like a good use of resources to me. I put in a ground loop
geothermal system for my house. There's about 3600 ft of pipe in the
ground loop buried around 6 foot down. When running in winter, the
loop will probably get down to 32F (which is why they fill it with
glycol). That will take care of AC, heat and, to some extent, hot
water. I have talked to a number of people in the area (Michigan) who
have done this and their January and Feburary heating bills tend to be
in the $20 range. Yes, that's _twenty_ dollars. Of course, they are
well insulated houses and our local utility gives you a special rate
for geothermal. I'm still under construction and won't be running it
until next winter. For me though, the choices were geothermal,
propane or oil and the latter two for a primary source were not very
attractive.

AC tends to be very efficient because you're dumping the heat into a
cold sink, rather than 90+ F air.

The downside is the capital investment. Water source heat pumps large
enough to handle a house are not cheap. Waterfurnace is one make,
there are a couple of others.

I wonder if you could cobble something up to let an ordinary air heat
pump work with a ground source? Seems like you'd just have to do
something clever with the heat exchanger and you can probably get
those for next to nothing.

I had a contractor do mine, but there's nothing in the installation
that a reasonably handy person couldn't do, particulary if you have or
can rent or borrow a backhoe. The units are sealed, so there's no
handling of refrigerant. The hardest thing to do is to weld the
ground loop so it's leak tight and then fill it and purge the air out
of it. If you can get a unit, you could probably install it yourself
for less than half of what a contractor would charge you. Still
wouldn't be cheap though.

Although I did this for my house, I used radiant heat with a propane
fired tankless 87%+ efficient hot water heater for the shop - block
building with foamed insulation in the cores and 1.5 inches of
styrofoam under the external sheathing. I should end up with an R12
wall if you believe the literature from the foam company. I built it
that way because I was worried about fire. Doing it over though, I
would probably use SIP construction. Masons have been consistently
the worst group of contractors I have had to deal with.

One thing I did do right is to use scissor trusses for the roof. That
gives a significant boost to the ceiling height in the center. I also
put in a couple of skylights as well as a row of windows.

Another option, is a geothermal/radiant heat pump. I didn't
investigate these, but they may be significantly cheaper than the
geothermal/forced air unit I put in the house. Then again, maybe not
:-)

Paul

"Backlash" wrote in message ...
Jeridiah, could you explain more about the insulated concrete forms? pics,
website, maybe? Being in the south, that's not an item we would normally use
around here. I've seen the ones used to pour basements and such, then left
in place. I would assume they are integral to the flow of the building so
they don't protrude from the slab, etc? What would protect them from string
trimmers, lawn mowers, and such?


http://www.integraspec.com/frame.html

This is the system I used. There are about a dozen of them around
here. I built mine from the footings to the eaves in one solid wall.
The foam wall is put up first and then it is filled with cement. The
big advantage is that you end up with a monolithic slab for a wall, so
there are no air gaps anywhere. It is important to plan ahead though,
because if you need to add a hole later, it is difficult(but not
impossible).
The walls on the inside are finished anyway you choose(I went with OSB
to withstand the inevetible dings in a shop). The outside can be
finished in any conventional manner(mine is colored sheet steel).
I have been taking pictures throughout the entire project, but have
not gotten around to building a website yet. I can send you some if
you want.

JW

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:03:43 -0500, "Backlash"
wrote:

Is anyone on the NG using solar collectors in addition to a radiant heat
system? My roof will be oriented so that the sun will be on one side of the
roof slope for a lot of the day. The thought crossed my mind that this
method might conserve energy, dependent on cost, or serve somewhat as a
"preheat" for the system. I once read Mother Earth News, and in it there was
a shop water heater made out of an old refrigerator mounted on the south
shop wall in a horizontal position so that the door could be opened to the
proper angle, with coils in it, to act as a solar collector. A water tank
behind plastic glazing was in the box. The door was shut during the night
hours to conserve absorbed heat for the next day.

RJ


You'd have to cover that area with glass to do it right. And metal
heat exhangers.

I happen to have a huge solar hot water tank , 210 F x 517 gl.
Got it RIGHT after 9/11 , was scared to drive it home on my truck!
There is no slope on any of the buildings and not enough un-shaded
areas in my yard. I'd have to completely redo my house roof , hmmm...
Got it from one of Sammy Davis Jr.'s houses for nothing.

Someone told me that I should move everything out of my shop and put
in floor heating ( I forgot about that.) and raise the floor. 10.5'
ceiling.. Not like it is going to matter. Should put the slab on that
pink stiren if you have the $. They do pools like that, spray yellow
AB and gunite the pool on top. Things to make you go hmmm when your
water leveling it.

I'd go solar in a second if I had the space and parts.

I'm in a 2-car garage space (actually under the garage) so my comments
reflect my (lack of) space. I like to put everything that I can on wheels
(with the ability to lock them down or block them up easily). I like/need
to roll stuff around depending on the job at hand. The big tools/machines
are stationary of course. I would like a 10' ceiling. All my florescent
lights have plastic protector tubes. My ceiling lighting is on 2 circuits so
if 1 goes out I still have light (unless all ...). My wall outlets are split
over several circuits. Put in a couple of 20a single outlet circuits (120v)
for heavy draw things (microwave oven, dehumidifier, etc.). My compressor
is outside. I have 2 duplex 120v outlets (separate circuits) and 1 air line
centered in my ceiling. I would like a ceiling air filter/circulator to
minimize dust (neat freak?). The ceiling is R15 and the wall R21 (the
ceiling is the concrete garage slab - my shop is height challenged hence the
R15) and I have heat & a/c. I wish I had radiant heat in the floor but it
was existing construction. My walls are antique white (pure white is really
white!) and the ceiling is another shade of white.
If you have water lines coming in put in a drain or 2 and hope you never
have to use them! 2 years ago I helped vacuum up a commercial shop that had
an overnight leak. Plan on having a couple of outlets up high for a clock,
neon lighted sign, etc. Ditto on the other's suggestions on wiring and
conduit for new runs.

What an opportunity!
Alex

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
Backlash wrote:

Well, today's a snow (ice) day for me, so let's see if I can get a good
discussion going about shop design and construction In building a
workshop/garage, in which metalwork, machining, mechanical repairs, auto
repair, and in a separate partition, woodwork is to be performed, what
materials and type of construction would you guys use, and why?

My garage and shop was built with Quad-Lock. This consists of styrofoam
"Lego" blocks placed in two rows 5.5" apart with rebar set in the
plastic separators. Some temporary re-enforcement is added and the
space between the rows filled with concrete. After the concrete has set
up, the temporary re-enforcement is removed. The outside is stuccoed
and the inside gyproc'd. Looks nice is _very_ sturdy and, with the R-40
insulation in the cathedral ceiling, is more than adequately heated in
the Canadian winter with one 32,000BTU/hr radiant heater in each of the
two areas. On 40+Celcius summer days, I open the doors early in the
morning and close them when the temp outside equals temp inside (no
other a/c). Late in the afternoon the temperature is often more than
10C cooler than outside.

More detail by e-mail if you wish. Note what to remove from addy.

Ted

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 05:13:10 GMT, Gunner wrote:

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:27:33 +0000, Mark Rand
wrote:



I am severely limited by the size of my plot and cannot get bigger than 8' 6"'
by 17' 6' internal dimensions. What I have been toying with is the idea of
excavating a basement under the workshop. I reckon that a 6' by 7' by 14'
basement would involve removing a bit more than 30 cubic yards of soil with
the addition of formwork, reinforcing and concrete. The cost might only go up
by 75% of the original price for another 60% of usable space out of the plot.
has anyone done this sort of thing?

Excuse me for inserting my $.02USD here..but given the small size of
your proposed shop..why not expand onto the original structure? Doing
so will not only give you more room, but cost less, as you already
have one or more walls to work with.

There isn't anywhere else to put the new shop. Space really is a problem!

On grid paper, lay out the exisiting garage on your property. Look at
the property lines, etc etc..then add shop space around one or more
sides of the exisiting structure until you are within proper distance
of your propery line(s). Doors as needed may be put in the wall(s) of
the exisiting structure, etc etc. Done with a bit of foresight and
planning, it will give you far more room, various spaces to perform
clean or dirty work, storage etc etc and you may use proper
ventilation from the new section to help keep the old section dry.

I have go plans to build a utility room for SWMBO behind the existing garage
after rebuilding it waterproof. That will be 8' wide at one end, 4' 6" wide at
the other and 9' long. Did I mention that the plot is triangular? Proper
distance to the property lines for both the old and the new structures is 3".


At most, you only need to construct no more than 3 external walls and
perhaps only two. Basements are very nice..but they do flood, tend to
be humid, and take up valuable floor space for access to the stairs,
unless you live on the side of a hill. Its very hard to move machinery
or long stock down said stairs, and it winds up being used mostly for
storage if you have other shop space. You already have storage in the
old garage. Shrug. The large Tupperware type tubs with snap on lids
work pretty well in humid areas for keeping things moderately dry when
racked on proper shelves.


I know they are a pain, and expensive compared with a larger building. But I
can't do larger. Storage (plus compressor, computers, etc) is ok since that
would leave the main space for tools and projects. To get a house with a
larger plot would be on the order of £100 000 more, so that's out as well.
England is just too damned small :-(

It probably won't happen due to the complexity of it, but I'd bee a fool not
to investigate it given the limitations of the plot.

Just an old rednecks suggestion, worth what you paid for it.


I like cheap :-)

Regards
Mark Rand
RTFM

Speaking of radiant floor heating in the shop, it would seem like a good
idea to somehow, very accurately, map the layout of your tubing in the
floor. Someday you may want to run some anchor bolts into the concrete and
it would really suck to hit a tube and have water squirting up through your
floor.

--Dan

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
I've been researching that subject, and it sounds mighty sweet. My only
issue is that I have a nice Hilti anchor drill, and I ain't afraid to use
it! G Luckily, my compressors were bolted down during the flood. Still
considering it though. How expensive is the radiant heat to operate in
fuel
costs? Thinking about a gas pack for quick heat, with radiant for more
extended work periods. Thanks.

RJ