On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 01:16:11 -0600, "B.B."
u wrote:

In article ,
Don Foreman wrote:

[...]

OK, you did ask.

Thank you. I did ask, I did honestly want to know, and I appreciate
your comments. I don't disagree with everything you lay out here, but I
want to clarify a few spots where I think you assumed too much. I'll
clip away old quotes and the bits where I simply agree with you to keep
this from getting too long.

[...]

You've been told that the military exists to be ready for war and to
wage it when the elected authorities direct it to do so. That should
have been obvious, but you have been told in case it wasn't. Your
stated position of being disgusted with what the military is doing
and having no respect at all for the Commander in Chief, even
calling him an idiot, is a bad attitude for a member of the
military. In fact, it is a completely unacceptable attitude which
would not be tolerated. You may not like the next CIC any better.
Being a politician is a popularity contest. Being a commander and
leader is not.

Looking for clarification. Are you saying it's unacceptable to feel
as I do, or just unacceptable to act on it?

I said neither. Read it again.

In every other facet of my
life I've been capable of separating political disagreement with
fulfilling my duties--whatever they were. Or simply controlling
impulses. That actually kind of gets back to the gist of my initial
question: could I separate belief about this war from action in the
military? It seems you assumed that I could not and went from there.

That's right. Your joining the military with present attitudes makes
about as much sense as for a pro-lifer to apply for a job in the
laundry at an abortion clinic.

But I do not know. Perhaps it is the case that the military life
requires a person to inherently agree with the political leadership
beyond merely following orders. If that really is the case, then yeah,
I'd agree with you that I should not be in the military.

Military people can disagree about politics, but it is both dishonest
and foolish to work in a place, military or otherwise, where you
hold both the leadership and the mission of the organization in
contempt. It would be particularly stupid to do this in a place where
quitting is not an option, once joined.

That's right. Your joining the military with present attitudes makes
about as much sense as for a pro-lifer to apply for a job in the
laundry at an abortion clinic.

Nice analogy. That's the way I saw his situation too.

On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:35:35 -0600, "B.B."
u wrote:

Ive been on the planet for a bit more than 52 yrs. Ive seen both the
varmint And the elephant. Ive been a cop, a soldier and a host of
other things in my short time on this whirling blob. So Ive been
around enough to learn things, to be able to recognize things. To be
able to cut though much of the bull**** folks use to cover themselves
up with. As have most of the posters who have commented on your world
view/mind set.

Alright, I see your credentials, but absolutely nowhere in there did
you explain *why* I have a bad attitude. What about my posts gave you
(or anyone else who cares to jump in) the impression that I have a poor
attitude that would not be a good fit in the military? "Things" is just
the tiniest bit vague.

Why you have the bad attitude..is not my problem. Perhaps a harsh or
too pampered childhood?

As to what sort of bad attitude you have...self centered "meism"
rather tops the list. If you would like..I can review the thread via
Google and give you a kitchen table synopsis..but Im afraid that my
tendency to call a spade a spade my tend to **** you off.

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:35:35 -0600, "B.B."
u wrote:


As for your family and friends...ever heard the term "useful idiots"?

**** you. That's my family you're taking a shot at.

Its your family your dragged into the conversation and gave
attribution to. And according to your description of them..the term
would indeed fit. So if you dont want your family commented on..dont
use them as a debating point.

No, I mentioned my family because it was the truth. Are you
suggesting that I should have made up a lie to fill that space?
You have no information about my family other than the fact that they
oppose my decision to enlist. That's it. But you somehow extrapolated
all of the bad connotations you attribute to "useful idiots." So you
found yourself square on the receiving end of a "**** You."
Perhaps you can find some way to convince me that it's OK to insult
my family based on basically nothing, and I'll apologize to you. Since
you see yourself as such a professional bull**** cut-througher, have at
it.


One reads what you wrote about your family..and their reasons for
opposing your enlistment..then reviews the actual meaning of "useful
idiots" and what the source was..and what he was refering to when he
stated it..then Useful Idiots may well be actually accurate, dispite
your angst.
Two sources actually. Both Lenin and Kruschev are reputed to have used
it..both are in question..however...lets look to Wiki shall we?

......
n the contemporary United States, the term is used as a pejorative by
political conservatives against political liberals. The tone of usage
implies that the target of this sobriquet is ignorant of the facts to
the extent that they end up unwittingly advancing an adverse cause
that they might not otherwise support. The term gained increased use
after the publication of conservative columnist Mona Charen's 2004
book Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and
Still Blame America First.

Since the 9/11 attacks, the term "useful idiot" has also been used by
some conservatives both inside and outside the United States to
describe those who, in their opinion, take a softer line against
Islamism. For example, Anthony Browne wrote in Britain's The Times
newspaper:

"Elements within the British establishment were notoriously
sympathetic to Hitler. Today the Islamists enjoy similar support. In
the 1930s it was Edward VIII, aristocrats and the Daily Mail; this
time it is left-wing activists, The Guardian and sections of the BBC.
They may not want a global theocracy, but they are like the West’s
apologists for the Soviet Union — useful idiots."

Similarly, Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at Cal State
Fresno wrote in FrontpageMag.com:

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in liberal
democracies who by giving moral and material support to a totalitarian
ideology in effect were braiding the rope that would hang them. Why
people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked passionately to
destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us today. Now
the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement, reflexive
anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit the
necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical
Islam."

Gunner






"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 23:56:42 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

"Your job" would be what your commanders decide it is, not what you
think it should be. Some soldiers do serve as mechanics, but
they don't get to passively let others do the fighting if they come
under fire. They * will* drop their wrenches, grab weapons and
actively participate in their own defense. Many military people,
perhaps most, never do come under fire -- but the job of the
military is always to be ready to fight when called upon to do so. I
don't know what the statistics are right now, but at other times the
percentage of the military actually engaged in combat was something
like 10%. It takes a lot of logistics and rear-echelon support to
wage warfare by air, land and sea. However, in wars since Korea the
geographic location of "rear echelon" has often been fuzzy
in-country.


Tooth to Tail

WW2 21% of forces engaged in support
Korea 19% of forces engaged in support
Vietnam 17% of forces engaged in support
Sandbox1 7% of forces engaged in support
Sandbox2 Aproximately the same

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 11:36:25 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 01:16:11 -0600, "B.B."
. ru wrote:

In article ,
Don Foreman wrote:

[...]

OK, you did ask.

Thank you. I did ask, I did honestly want to know, and I appreciate
your comments. I don't disagree with everything you lay out here, but I
want to clarify a few spots where I think you assumed too much. I'll
clip away old quotes and the bits where I simply agree with you to keep
this from getting too long.

[...]

You've been told that the military exists to be ready for war and to
wage it when the elected authorities direct it to do so. That should
have been obvious, but you have been told in case it wasn't. Your
stated position of being disgusted with what the military is doing
and having no respect at all for the Commander in Chief, even
calling him an idiot, is a bad attitude for a member of the
military. In fact, it is a completely unacceptable attitude which
would not be tolerated. You may not like the next CIC any better.
Being a politician is a popularity contest. Being a commander and
leader is not.

Looking for clarification. Are you saying it's unacceptable to feel
as I do, or just unacceptable to act on it?

I said neither. Read it again.

In every other facet of my
life I've been capable of separating political disagreement with
fulfilling my duties--whatever they were. Or simply controlling
impulses. That actually kind of gets back to the gist of my initial
question: could I separate belief about this war from action in the
military? It seems you assumed that I could not and went from there.

That's right. Your joining the military with present attitudes makes
about as much sense as for a pro-lifer to apply for a job in the
laundry at an abortion clinic.

But I do not know. Perhaps it is the case that the military life
requires a person to inherently agree with the political leadership
beyond merely following orders. If that really is the case, then yeah,
I'd agree with you that I should not be in the military.

Military people can disagree about politics, but it is both dishonest
and foolish to work in a place, military or otherwise, where you
hold both the leadership and the mission of the organization in
contempt. It would be particularly stupid to do this in a place where
quitting is not an option, once joined.

Indeed. Excellent synopsis in all of your posts btw.

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

Dave Lyon wrote:
That's right. Your joining the military with present attitudes makes
about as much sense as for a pro-lifer to apply for a job in the
laundry at an abortion clinic.


Nice analogy. That's the way I saw his situation too.


Yes I thought the same thing.
...lew...

In article ,
Gunner wrote:

[...]

Alright, I see your credentials, but absolutely nowhere in there did
you explain *why* I have a bad attitude. What about my posts gave you
(or anyone else who cares to jump in) the impression that I have a poor
attitude that would not be a good fit in the military? "Things" is just
the tiniest bit vague.

Why you have the bad attitude..is not my problem. Perhaps a harsh or
too pampered childhood?

As to what sort of bad attitude you have...self centered "meism"
rather tops the list. If you would like..I can review the thread via
Google and give you a kitchen table synopsis..but Im afraid that my
tendency to call a spade a spade my tend to **** you off.

Gunner

You know, if you really were concerned about ****ing me off you
probably wouldn't have hurled an insult at my family like you did. So,
let's cut the bull****. If you think you can demonstrate my "meism"
using this thread (oh, hell, anything you locate on google or anywhere
else) then do so.
I am nothing if not unimpressed by those who tell me: "I would kick
your ass, but I'd feel sorry for you." Put up or shut up, spade.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 23:49:34 -0600, "B.B."
u wrote:

In article ,
Gunner wrote:

[...]

Alright, I see your credentials, but absolutely nowhere in there did
you explain *why* I have a bad attitude. What about my posts gave you
(or anyone else who cares to jump in) the impression that I have a poor
attitude that would not be a good fit in the military? "Things" is just
the tiniest bit vague.

Why you have the bad attitude..is not my problem. Perhaps a harsh or
too pampered childhood?

As to what sort of bad attitude you have...self centered "meism"
rather tops the list. If you would like..I can review the thread via
Google and give you a kitchen table synopsis..but Im afraid that my
tendency to call a spade a spade my tend to **** you off.

Gunner

You know, if you really were concerned about ****ing me off you
probably wouldn't have hurled an insult at my family like you did. So,
let's cut the bull****. If you think you can demonstrate my "meism"
using this thread (oh, hell, anything you locate on google or anywhere
else) then do so.
I am nothing if not unimpressed by those who tell me: "I would kick
your ass, but I'd feel sorry for you." Put up or shut up, spade.

I'd suggest that delivering this message to Gunner in person could
be a significant growth opportunity for you. I recommend it as well
worth the travel cost, long term. There are some very good deals on
just now for travel to LAX, Gunner visits that area now and then.

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 23:49:34 -0600, "B.B."
u wrote:

In article ,
Gunner wrote:

[...]

Alright, I see your credentials, but absolutely nowhere in there did
you explain *why* I have a bad attitude. What about my posts gave you
(or anyone else who cares to jump in) the impression that I have a poor
attitude that would not be a good fit in the military? "Things" is just
the tiniest bit vague.

Why you have the bad attitude..is not my problem. Perhaps a harsh or
too pampered childhood?

As to what sort of bad attitude you have...self centered "meism"
rather tops the list. If you would like..I can review the thread via
Google and give you a kitchen table synopsis..but Im afraid that my
tendency to call a spade a spade my tend to **** you off.

Gunner

You know, if you really were concerned about ****ing me off you
probably wouldn't have hurled an insult at my family like you did. So,
let's cut the bull****. If you think you can demonstrate my "meism"
using this thread (oh, hell, anything you locate on google or anywhere
else) then do so.

Insult your family? How is an observation an insult? The sun comes up
in the East. Is that an insult?

I am nothing if not unimpressed by those who tell me: "I would kick
your ass, but I'd feel sorry for you." Put up or shut up, spade.

What makes you think Im black? And why would you expose your racism
like that on this news group?

Gunner




"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 23:49:34 -0600, "B.B."
u wrote:

In article ,
Gunner wrote:

[...]

Alright, I see your credentials, but absolutely nowhere in there did
you explain *why* I have a bad attitude. What about my posts gave you
(or anyone else who cares to jump in) the impression that I have a poor
attitude that would not be a good fit in the military? "Things" is just
the tiniest bit vague.

Why you have the bad attitude..is not my problem. Perhaps a harsh or
too pampered childhood?

As to what sort of bad attitude you have...self centered "meism"
rather tops the list. If you would like..I can review the thread via
Google and give you a kitchen table synopsis..but Im afraid that my
tendency to call a spade a spade my tend to **** you off.

Gunner

You know, if you really were concerned about ****ing me off you
probably wouldn't have hurled an insult at my family like you did.

I didn't see any hurled insults. Useful idiots are useful idiots,
period. Useless idiots would've been a different story perhaps.

So,
let's cut the bull****. If you think you can demonstrate my "meism"
using this thread (oh, hell, anything you locate on google or anywhere
else) then do so.

They're all over the place kid. Why were you going to join in the
first place, to serve for the betterment of your fellow Americans?
**** no. You were in it for you and what you could get out of it,
you, you, you, you.

Why did you chicken out, realized your ass might come home in a box
and this country isn't worth dying for? **** yes. Me, me, me, me,
me. You've no honor nor patriotic motivation, only what's good for
me, me, me, me. **** you.

Tell ya what, if you *really* want answers to this, go to the nearest
military base, explain this entire scenario to as many enlisted men,
women, and officers as you can find and get back with us. Don't
forget to bring some extra ***** You's* along... that's exactly what
you've uncerimoniously told every member of the armed forces ya know.

I am nothing if not unimpressed by those who tell me: "I would kick
your ass, but I'd feel sorry for you." Put up or shut up, spade.

yawn

Oh well, at least there are still some Americans who hold their
country above their own selfish motives, you just aren't one of them.
Ever heard that phrase "Lead, follow, or get out of the ****in' way"?
Scram kid.

Snarl

In article ,
Gunner wrote:

[...]

You know, if you really were concerned about ****ing me off you
probably wouldn't have hurled an insult at my family like you did. So,
let's cut the bull****. If you think you can demonstrate my "meism"
using this thread (oh, hell, anything you locate on google or anywhere
else) then do so.

Insult your family? How is an observation an insult? The sun comes up
in the East. Is that an insult?

You are an ass. Is that an insult?

I am nothing if not unimpressed by those who tell me: "I would kick
your ass, but I'd feel sorry for you." Put up or shut up, spade.

What makes you think Im black? And why would you expose your racism
like that on this news group?

Amazingly enough I can't seem to locate the part of your message
where you lay out the kitchen table synopsis on my "meism." Start he
http://www.google.com

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net