But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group, so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of this
question that the decision has been made.
Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever for
George Bush. In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military? I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some silly
political statement by disrupting the military.
I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net

I think it depends on the person. If you enjoy working as a mechanic,
enjoy army life and are fairly easy going, you should be fine. But if
your opposition to the war is passionate, so that it dominates your
thoughts and overpowers your other feelings, you might have a problem.
It's up to you to decide.

Best wishes and good luck!

Chris

B.B. wrote:
But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group, so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of this
question that the decision has been made.
Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever for
George Bush. In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military? I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some silly
political statement by disrupting the military.
I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.


I think the question you have to ask
yourself is whether or not you could
pick up a weapon and kill the enemy,
should it become necessary. Regardless
of your MOS, there is always a chance
you could end up in such a situation.
The Army may send you to mechanic's
school, but I bet they won't promise
you that you'll be a mechanic.

There's a reason basic training is
called Basic Combat Training.

In article ,
Jim Stewart wrote:

B.B. wrote:
But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group, so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of this
question that the decision has been made.
Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever for
George Bush. In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military? I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some silly
political statement by disrupting the military.
I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.

I think the question you have to ask
yourself is whether or not you could
pick up a weapon and kill the enemy,
should it become necessary. Regardless
of your MOS, there is always a chance
you could end up in such a situation.
The Army may send you to mechanic's
school, but I bet they won't promise
you that you'll be a mechanic.

There's a reason basic training is
called Basic Combat Training.


Plus, once you sign up you can be recalled later in life for any
purpose. An office mate of mine had a father who had retired from being
a B-52 pilot and was over 65. He was recalled to be a helicopter pilot
in Vietnam and mentioned he was the youngest in his survival school
class. McNamara calculated it was cheaper to have them killed than to
contimue paying pensions.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Nick Hull wrote:

Plus, once you sign up you can be recalled later in life for any
purpose. An office mate of mine had a father who had retired from being
a B-52 pilot and was over 65. He was recalled to be a helicopter pilot
in Vietnam and mentioned he was the youngest in his survival school
class. McNamara calculated it was cheaper to have them killed than to
contimue paying pensions.

--

Nick, you sure your buddy wasn't pulling your leg or maybe stretching
things a bit? Hard to imagine the military recalling a 65 year old
fixed wing pilot to have him fly choppers in combat. And it's also
hard to imagine that there would have been older people in a survival
class. How old was the oldest? 75, maybe?

Not saying that it couldn't be true, just that it seems awfully
unlikely.

John Martin

In article .com,
"John Martin" wrote:

Nick Hull wrote:

Plus, once you sign up you can be recalled later in life for any
purpose. An office mate of mine had a father who had retired from being
a B-52 pilot and was over 65. He was recalled to be a helicopter pilot
in Vietnam and mentioned he was the youngest in his survival school
class. McNamara calculated it was cheaper to have them killed than to
contimue paying pensions.

--

Nick, you sure your buddy wasn't pulling your leg or maybe stretching
things a bit? Hard to imagine the military recalling a 65 year old
fixed wing pilot to have him fly choppers in combat. And it's also
hard to imagine that there would have been older people in a survival
class. How old was the oldest? 75, maybe?

Not saying that it couldn't be true, just that it seems awfully
unlikely.

John Martin


I didn't check into the details myself, but my office mate was generally
truthful and I had heard similiar stories from other directions.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Nick Hull wrote:
In article .com,
"John Martin" wrote:

Nick Hull wrote:

Plus, once you sign up you can be recalled later in life for any
purpose. An office mate of mine had a father who had retired from being
a B-52 pilot and was over 65. He was recalled to be a helicopter pilot
in Vietnam and mentioned he was the youngest in his survival school
class. McNamara calculated it was cheaper to have them killed than to
contimue paying pensions.

--

Nick, you sure your buddy wasn't pulling your leg or maybe stretching
things a bit? Hard to imagine the military recalling a 65 year old
fixed wing pilot to have him fly choppers in combat. And it's also
hard to imagine that there would have been older people in a survival
class. How old was the oldest? 75, maybe?

Not saying that it couldn't be true, just that it seems awfully
unlikely.

John Martin


I didn't check into the details myself, but my office mate was generally
truthful and I had heard similiar stories from other directions.


Nick:

I've heard stories that over 200 million slaves were thrown overboard
in the Atlantic by slavers - so many that sharks still prowl the slave
routes today.

It was claimed just recently in this newsgroup that around 1905 the US
railroad industry averaged 100 employees killed per day.

I'm not trying to be funny here, and I'm not saying that what your
office mate told you couldn't be true. My only point is that while it
is to me more believable than the two stories above, it is - again, to
me - in the realm of myth.

John Martin

"Nick Hull" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Stewart wrote:

B.B. wrote:
But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group,
so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of this
question that the decision has been made.
Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever
for
George Bush. In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military? I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some
silly
political statement by disrupting the military.
I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.

I think the question you have to ask
yourself is whether or not you could
pick up a weapon and kill the enemy,
should it become necessary. Regardless
of your MOS, there is always a chance
you could end up in such a situation.
The Army may send you to mechanic's
school, but I bet they won't promise
you that you'll be a mechanic.

There's a reason basic training is
called Basic Combat Training.


Plus, once you sign up you can be recalled later in life for any
purpose. An office mate of mine had a father who had retired from being
a B-52 pilot and was over 65. He was recalled to be a helicopter pilot
in Vietnam and mentioned he was the youngest in his survival school
class. McNamara calculated it was cheaper to have them killed than to
contimue paying pensions.

--


That's only if you retire from service. If you resign a commission or elect
to not re-enlist for another period of service you then have a couple of
years in the Individual Ready Reserve. Once that time is up you are done.

Steve.

In article ,
"SteveF" wrote:

Plus, once you sign up you can be recalled later in life for any
purpose. An office mate of mine had a father who had retired from being
a B-52 pilot and was over 65. He was recalled to be a helicopter pilot
in Vietnam and mentioned he was the youngest in his survival school
class. McNamara calculated it was cheaper to have them killed than to
contimue paying pensions.

--


That's only if you retire from service. If you resign a commission or elect
to not re-enlist for another period of service you then have a couple of
years in the Individual Ready Reserve. Once that time is up you are done.

There was a recent news item where a soldier had resigned, and his
resignation accepted, then some time later the army said the acceptance
was a mistake and they were recalling him to active duty (Iraq).

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

"Nick Hull" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"SteveF" wrote:

Plus, once you sign up you can be recalled later in life for any
purpose. An office mate of mine had a father who had retired from
being
a B-52 pilot and was over 65. He was recalled to be a helicopter pilot
in Vietnam and mentioned he was the youngest in his survival school
class. McNamara calculated it was cheaper to have them killed than to
contimue paying pensions.

--


That's only if you retire from service. If you resign a commission or
elect
to not re-enlist for another period of service you then have a couple of
years in the Individual Ready Reserve. Once that time is up you are
done.

There was a recent news item where a soldier had resigned, and his
resignation accepted, then some time later the army said the acceptance
was a mistake and they were recalling him to active duty (Iraq).


Officers resign, enlisted (soldiers) simply let their enlistment contract
expire. If this is the one involving an officer in North Carolina, the Army
was saying that he needed to resign to go off off active duty and then
submit another resignation to resign from the IRR. He is saying there is no
such requirement and IRR terms expire automatically. So does his lawyer.
AFAIK he hasn't reported for duty.

Steve.

B.B. wrote:

But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group, so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of this
question that the decision has been made.
Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever for
George Bush. In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military? I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some silly
political statement by disrupting the military.
I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net


If you feel a wage check is more important than following your
instincts as to whats right and wrong, go ahead and join the army.

The thing thats very much worth bearing in mind here is that Iraq,
Afghanistan, S.Vietnam..............and indeed any of the other nation
states that have been attacked by US forces, subsequent to WW2, posed
any sort of threat to the US. These attacks being carried out purely
for economic or political reasons, and therefore being deemed as
illegal under international law.

I think for anyone who cares about the victims of the US military
industrial complex, that actually playing a direct part in this, would
be a shameful decision, and one that you would be likely to regret!

k

wrote:

B.B. wrote:



But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group, so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of this
question that the decision has been made.
Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever for
George Bush. In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military? I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some silly
political statement by disrupting the military.
I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net




If you feel a wage check is more important than following your
instincts as to whats right and wrong, go ahead and join the army.

The thing thats very much worth bearing in mind here is that Iraq,
Afghanistan, S.Vietnam..............and indeed any of the other nation
states that have been attacked by US forces, subsequent to WW2, posed
any sort of threat to the US. These attacks being carried out purely
for economic or political reasons, and therefore being deemed as
illegal under international law.

I think for anyone who cares about the victims of the US military
industrial complex, that actually playing a direct part in this, would
be a shameful decision, and one that you would be likely to regret!

k



You Brits are still sore about losing the W.O.I. (war of independence)
By the way, I understand the UK has troops in Iraq too.

ff

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 10:23:19 GMT, ff wrote:



You Brits are still sore about losing the W.O.I. (war of independence)
By the way, I understand the UK has troops in Iraq too.

ff

No, its the thought of all the damage that coffee is doing to your systems
plus the lack of tax from the tea G


Mark Rand
RTFM

Mark Rand wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 10:23:19 GMT, ff wrote:




You Brits are still sore about losing the W.O.I. (war of independence)
By the way, I understand the UK has troops in Iraq too.

ff



No, its the thought of all the damage that coffee is doing to your systems
plus the lack of tax from the tea G


Mark Rand
RTFM



LOL

Just for that, we will build another dozen McDonalds over there.
Give me liberty or give me a BigMac.

Fred

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 19:07:43 GMT, ff wrote:

Mark Rand wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 10:23:19 GMT, ff wrote:




You Brits are still sore about losing the W.O.I. (war of independence)
By the way, I understand the UK has troops in Iraq too.

ff



No, its the thought of all the damage that coffee is doing to your systems
plus the lack of tax from the tea G


Mark Rand
RTFM



LOL

Just for that, we will build another dozen McDonalds over there.
Give me liberty or give me a BigMac.

Fred


Put that way, liberty looks quite attractive.

Mark Rand
RTFM

On 29 Jan 2006 01:24:20 -0800, wrote:


B.B. wrote:

But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group, so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of this
question that the decision has been made.
Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever for
George Bush. In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military? I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some silly
political statement by disrupting the military.
I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net


If you feel a wage check is more important than following your
instincts as to whats right and wrong, go ahead and join the army.

The thing thats very much worth bearing in mind here is that Iraq,
Afghanistan, S.Vietnam..............and indeed any of the other nation
states that have been attacked by US forces, subsequent to WW2, posed
any sort of threat to the US. These attacks being carried out purely
for economic or political reasons, and therefore being deemed as
illegal under international law.

I think for anyone who cares about the victims of the US military
industrial complex, that actually playing a direct part in this, would
be a shameful decision, and one that you would be likely to regret!

k



If it's good enough for Prince Harry, it's good enough for me...

If I were 20 years younger, that is...



BK


(Royal Canadian Artillery, retired)

Ubique!

DO NOT DO IT. You may have been promised a mechanic school and you will
most likely get it. But that is as far as it goes. They can then send
you to advanced infantry training and you know where that is going.

CP

"MOP CAP" wrote in message
news:290120061601054882%Pilgrim6nospam@mindspring. com...
DO NOT DO IT. You may have been promised a mechanic school and you will
most likely get it. But that is as far as it goes. They can then send
you to advanced infantry training and you know where that is going.

CP

The typical military - if you're a truck driver, they make you a cook. If
you're a cook, they make you a truck driver.

Go figger.

Steve

Steve B wrote:

"MOP CAP" wrote in message
news:290120061601054882%Pilgrim6nospam@mindspring. com...

DO NOT DO IT. You may have been promised a mechanic school and you will
most likely get it. But that is as far as it goes. They can then send
you to advanced infantry training and you know where that is going.

CP


The typical military - if you're a truck driver, they make you a cook. If
you're a cook, they make you a truck driver.

Go figger.

Steve



In the final analysis, every soldier is a rifleman first.

"B.B." wrote:

But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group, so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of this
question that the decision has been made.
Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever for
George Bush. In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military? I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some silly
political statement by disrupting the military.
I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net

It's your life.

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 01:18:25 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
"B.B." u quickly
quoth:

But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group, so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of this
question that the decision has been made.

The phrase "foolish choice" immediately comes to mind. What were you
THINKING? (Oh, I get it. The court gave you two choices? OK, swap!)


Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever for
George Bush.

Our numbers are growing daily, on both sides. sigh We need a
President we can believe in, like we used to.


In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military?

Maybe, for a week or two, but not for 4 years. Realize that you'll be
instantly transported into the middle of the war as soon as you leave
boot camp. There are others who've been there for too long now and
you'll immediately take one of their places.

I felt the same way about Nam and was given a reprieve. My number was
called in the draft and I was sent an Order to Report. Since I was in
the process of moving back to CA from AZ after school, I asked for and
received an OK to transfer to my local (San Diego) board. Once I got
back, they put me on Hold and told me that they already had their
quota. Whew! BTW, my school of choice was Universal Technical
Institute and the study was Auto Mechanics. I graduated with 4
certificates: Mechanics, Doctor of Motors Student Citation g, Auto
Air Conditioning, and Automatic Transmissions. I'd have gone to Nam as
a wrench just as you'll go to Iraq as one.


I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some silly
political statement by disrupting the military.
I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.

Chicken out on Monday...unless you have a death wish AND like Hell.
The fact that you're having second thoughts is telling. Override the
Darwinian thoughts and bail now, dude. You sound as if you don't
belong in the military any more than I would have.

Sign me: Air Force Brat.

-
Better Living Through Denial
------------
http://diversify.com Dynamic Websites, PHP Apps, MySQL databases

"B.B." u wrote in
news
But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group,
so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of
this question that the decision has been made.
Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever
for George Bush. In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military? I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some
silly political statement by disrupting the military.
I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.


Do not ever...ever...ever...ever...ever...ever...ever...e ver...believe
what a recruiter tells you!!! You may be "guaranteed" a school. But,
They "will" put you in what and where they "need" you once you sign that
paper. Recruiters' promises are....I can't think of a negative enough
word for them.

I can't believe some of the ads I see for the military, on TV. For the
Army Reserves: "Mom, I've already checked them out. And they'll train me
as an engineer, and I can still go to school and they won't call me up
unless they "really" need me." Has anyone ever told you about the "stop
loss" program that's keeping soldiers in long after their "contracted"
enlistment time is up?

Do not go into the Army with what appears to be your dillusion that
you're only going to be a mechanic, and won't be trained and used as a
"fighter".

I know of what I speak!

Talk to people who are or have been recently in the Army. Get a real
picture from people who aren't being paid bonuses to sign you up.

"B.B." u wrote in message
news
But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group, so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of this
question that the decision has been made.
Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever for
George Bush. In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military? I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some silly
political statement by disrupting the military.
I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net



If you can follow orders and do the job assigned to you in spite of your
political convictions you will be able to serve. If you think that might
not be possible then the Army isn't the place for you. You are about to
enter a whole different world where the First Amendment does NOT apply and
the biggest concept to understand is - "you don't have a choice". Doesn't
matter if you don't like it, doesn't even matter if it is obviously stupid
and inefficient. If you get ordered to do it, you must do it. If you
don't, you get in trouble. Enough trouble and the Army will just send you
home with a dishonorable discharge which is NOT something you want on your
resume. Enough trouble while serving in Iraq and you might get a stopover
at Fort Leavenworth. Since your post is coherent and grammatically correct
I'll assume you are fairly smart. Make sure you understand that all the
folks you think are stupid may have joined the Army before you and will
outrank you and can give you orders to do the dumbest damned things you ever
saw. Doesn't even matter if they are your boss or not. EVERYONE who
outranks you will give you orders, usually done in a manner to satisfy their
personal egos and not to show you any kind of respect or common courtesy.
If you can live with that for a couple of years, go ahead.

Good luck.
Steve.
former artillery officer

"B.B." u wrote in message
news
But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group, so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of this
question that the decision has been made.
Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever for
George Bush. In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military? I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some silly
political statement by disrupting the military.
I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net

Go back to your liberal college. You would not be a good member of ANY
organization if you pick and choose who you will mind and what job you will
perform.

When given an order you need to be able to snap to attention, salute, and
bark "Yes, Sir!" and mean it.

Waffling wavering woosies like you are at the core of what is rotten in our
military. And it shows your lack of immaturity in not being able to take or
follow orders. You think your mommie and daddie were tough about keeping
your room clean and your shoes shined? You ain't seen nothing yet, and it
only starts there.

You do not have what it takes to be a member of the United States military.

Steve

Steve B wrote:

"B.B." u wrote in message
news

But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group, so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of this
question that the decision has been made.
Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever for
George Bush. In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military? I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some silly
political statement by disrupting the military.
I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net



Go back to your liberal college. You would not be a good member of ANY
organization if you pick and choose who you will mind and what job you will
perform.

When given an order you need to be able to snap to attention, salute, and
bark "Yes, Sir!" and mean it.

Waffling wavering woosies like you are at the core of what is rotten in our
military. And it shows your lack of immaturity in not being able to take or
follow orders. You think your mommie and daddie were tough about keeping
your room clean and your shoes shined? You ain't seen nothing yet, and it
only starts there.

You do not have what it takes to be a member of the United States military.

Steve




I had to read that three times. The third time I got to "lack of
immaturity" .....LOL

ff

Steve B wrote:
Go back to your liberal college. You would not be a good member of ANY
organization if you pick and choose who you will mind and what job you
will perform.

When given an order you need to be able to snap to attention, salute, and
bark "Yes, Sir!" and mean it.

Waffling wavering woosies like you are at the core of what is rotten in
our military. And it shows your lack of immaturity in not being able to
take or follow orders. You think your mommie and daddie were tough about
keeping your room clean and your shoes shined? You ain't seen nothing
yet, and it only starts there.

You do not have what it takes to be a member of the United States
military.

Steve


I had to read that three times. The third time I got to "lack of
immaturity" .....LOL

ff

Okay, okay. Brain fart. Go back and read it again and blot out the "im" in
immaturity.

The rest of my post speaks for itself.

If you are the type of person who only wants to do certain things, and not
others, you would not be military material.

"What do you mean I have to get up at five o'clock in the morning?"

"I'm not eating this swill. I'm a vegan."

"Do I HAVE to shoot at the person shooting at me? I mean, I could hurt
him."

"I'm not doing ANYTHING President Bush has ordered because I don't LIKE
him!"

Like I said, the rest of my post stands. And the one mistake has been
corrected.

Steve

Steve, when your spelling or grammar is their best attack, that says
something!

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. net...
Steve, when your spelling or grammar is their best attack, that says
something!

Thank you, Tom. I definitely heard the sound of WHOOSH! ( the sound that
happens when a point flies over an airspace)

When anyone writes in asking about joining the armed forces, yet states they
have reservations about following orders, one must conclude that they are
either a troll, or someone who shouldn't be allowed out in public without
adult supervision.

But then, the military, and the guys have many unusual ways of "teaching"
such people. And, it's amazing what one can learn and how an attitude can
be changed during a "GI shower" or a "blanket party" given by fellow
soldiers. Or just leaving a guy on his own in certain circumstances when he
has stated that he doesn't need any help or any of his fellows.

As to those who hang on grammar or spelling, they just don't have a logical
lucid counterpoint to offer, so they attack any mistake or weakness. They
have no clue about the military, or how things work in the real world.

Body bag material.

Steve

Tom Gardner wrote:

Steve, when your spelling or grammar is their best attack, that says
something!




Tom, Steve did not make a mistake in spelling or grammar. He wrote a
_Bushism_


"It's in our country's interests to find those who would do harm to us
and get them out of harm's way." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,
April 28, 2005

"Steve B" wrote: (clip) Waffling wavering woosies like you (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Spiro Agnew is posting here?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And it shows your lack of immaturity (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Lack of immaturity is what I strive for.

Do you get any sense of direction from Steve B's post, taken as a whole? In
the military you would not be allowed to think, nor given a chance to think.

Do you get any sense of direction from Steve B's post, taken as a whole?
In the military you would not be allowed to think, nor given a chance to
think.

The military certainly would not allow people to think...those people not
capable of thinking, like you Leo, but they still find a useful purpose for
the non-thinkers.

"Tom Gardner" wrote: The military certainly would not allow people to
think...those people not capable of thinking, like you Leo, but they still
find a useful purpose for the non-thinkers.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Tom, I can't tell whether you are saying I am, or am not capable of
thinking. I won't sleep tonight until you clarify whether I should take it
as an insult or a back-handed compliment.

Unfortunately, having a non-thinker as Commander in Chief has had a
tremendous negative effect on the usefulness of the Army.

Unfortunately, having a non-thinker as Commander in Chief has had a
tremendous negative effect on the usefulness of the Army.

It seems obvious that you hate Pres. Bush, therefore everyone in the
President's service and everyone in the service is a "non-thinker". I have
ten relatives in various services in career positions of Major and above,
two are up for Admiral. Let me give you their e-mail addresses so you can
tell them yourself that they are "non-thinkers", be sure to include your
address and phone number! Be sure to thank them for fighting for your right
to sound foolish. I'm not trying to insult you Leo. When I DO insult you,
I'll explain it to you so there's no doubt.

Leo Lichtman wrote:

Unfortunately, having a non-thinker as Commander in Chief has had a
tremendous negative effect on the usefulness of the Army.

I had a lot of fun with the non-thinkers and blaming them in front of a
lot of people. :-)
Some learned the hard way what to do with me and what not.


Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:24:48 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:


"Steve B" wrote: (clip) Waffling wavering woosies like you (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Spiro Agnew is posting here?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And it shows your lack of immaturity (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Lack of immaturity is what I strive for.

Do you get any sense of direction from Steve B's post, taken as a whole? In
the military you would not be allowed to think, nor given a chance to think.

Depends on what part of the military. Capable soldiers, NCO's and
officers are thinking constantly and effectively. They tend to
have high survival rates even in the worst of times.

The military is not a philosophy class or a venue for abstract
intellectual introspection. The kind of thinking that works there is
thinking focussed on mission and survival, out-thinking the enemy bent
on your destruction. Not unlike competitive bidness, though the
processes and rules of engagement differ. It's thinking about very
pragmatic matters like tactics, logistics and creative ways to kill
rather than be killed. Those unable or unwilling to embrace that
discipline do tend to be SOL when the enemy is thinking better than
they are.

That was an unfortunate aspect of the draft in the 'Nam era. A lot of
young men were conscripted that lacked the capability of being a
competent soldier. They probably weren't competent of being much
else either, but while incompetence in civilian life may result in
poverty and sucking the welfare tit it is seldom fatal.

It was different in earlier conflicts like WWII because the men who
went to war then were motivated. Those who grew up during the
depression had already developed some toughness and ability to deal
with adversity. They did not view life as an entitlement.

It is also different now, because the men and women who go to Iraq
are 100% volunteers. There are no conscripts. There may be some
who hoped to trick the system by cashing military paychecks while
avoiding military service. Oopsie. Pick yer pony, take yer ride.

In article , Don Foreman says...

Do you get any sense of direction from Steve B's post, taken as a whole? In
the military you would not be allowed to think, nor given a chance to think.

Depends on what part of the military. Capable soldiers, NCO's and
officers are thinking constantly and effectively. They tend to
have high survival rates even in the worst of times.

I think in normal times soldiers are discouraged from thinking
because it make them independent and tough to manage. Those who
do so, do it in spite of the results.

In combat it's the reverse. Those who would othewise discourage
independent thought from their subordinates find that doing this
is counterproductive. And soldiers who do exhibit thoughtfulness
survive better and can better support their officers.

Chicken **** management in combat probably gets folks killed.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 2 Feb 2006 07:05:16 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Don Foreman says...

Do you get any sense of direction from Steve B's post, taken as a whole? In
the military you would not be allowed to think, nor given a chance to think.

Depends on what part of the military. Capable soldiers, NCO's and
officers are thinking constantly and effectively. They tend to
have high survival rates even in the worst of times.


I think in normal times soldiers are discouraged from thinking
because it make them independent and tough to manage. Those who
do so, do it in spite of the results.


Never been a soldier I take it?

In combat it's the reverse. Those who would othewise discourage
independent thought from their subordinates find that doing this
is counterproductive. And soldiers who do exhibit thoughtfulness
survive better and can better support their officers.

Chicken **** management in combat probably gets folks killed.

Jim

It gets people killed in all manner of occupations.

The US has long had a policy of individual intitative. Our enemies
have always commented on the fact, that even when the officers are
killed, our people still carry on the mission with skill.

The USSR for example, their troops were nearly helpless when their
officers were killed..as they were taught to follow orders and plans
to the letter and there was no room for personal initiative. Germany
was much the same way..though not as bad as Russia. Kill the NCOs or
officers..and the troops were history. With the US forces..kill the
NCOs and officers and the troops will still take your scalp.

As Ive mentioned in previous posts..todays US military is composed of
highly trained, highly motivated Intelligent individuals, and college
degrees are the rule, not the exception, even in front line NCOs


http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joini...mographics.htm

U.S. Military Recruiting Demographics

from American Forces Press Service

Nov 27 2005
By Jim Garamone

The U.S. military is not a "poor man's force."

That's the conclusion Defense Department officials reached following
examination of enlisted recruiting statistics gathered over the past
year.

"There is an issue of how representative of America is the force,"
said Curt Gilroy, the director of DoD's accessions policy in the
Pentagon.

DoD tracks "representativeness" - as Gilroy calls it - very closely.
And representativeness can take a whole host of forms - race,
education, social status, income, region and so on. "When you look at
all of those, you find that the force is really quite representative
of the country," he said in a recent interview. "It mirrors the
country in many of these. And where it doesn't mirror America, it
exceeds America."

The data shows the force is more educated than the population at
Servicemembers have high school diplomas or the general equivalency
diploma. More servicemembers have some college than the typical 18- to
24-year-olds. "To carry representativeness to the extreme, we would
have to have a less-educated force or we would want a lower-aptitude
force," Gilroy said.

The study is part of DoD's focus to bring the best recruits into the
military. The services - who are responsible for manning, equipping
and training the force - take this data and apply it to recruiting
efforts.

The force is a volunteer force; no one is coerced into serving. The
military is one option young people have after high school. Military
service offers money for college - money a large segment of the
population doesn't have. For those people, the military is an
attractive option.


"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

Steve B wrote:
Go back to your liberal college. You would not be a good member of ANY
organization if you pick and choose who you will mind and what job you will
perform.

When given an order you need to be able to snap to attention, salute, and
bark "Yes, Sir!" and mean it.

Waffling wavering woosies like you are at the core of what is rotten in our
military. And it shows your lack of immaturity in not being able to take or
follow orders. You think your mommie and daddie were tough about keeping
your room clean and your shoes shined? You ain't seen nothing yet, and it
only starts there.

You do not have what it takes to be a member of the United States military.

Steve

If you have to ask, then NO.
...lew...

B.B. wrote:
But there are some magnificently opinionated people in this group, so
I wanted to ask here.
I decided to join the army. I don't want to go into a long
description of why and why now, so just accept for the purposes of this
question that the decision has been made.
Here's the thing: I was opposed to this war before it started and
grow more disgusted with it daily. And I have no respect whatsoever for
George Bush. In your opinions, do you think it'll be possible to
separate that from work in the military? I'll be entering as a
mechanic, not as a fighter, and I plan to do my job--not make some silly
political statement by disrupting the military.

If there is one thing the military will teach you, it is that every job
is important. Keep in mind that the jeep you fix will be used for the
mission you find worthy of contempt.


I have until Tuesday afternoon to chicken out.

You asked for opinions, so I'll give you one: don't do it. Given your
attitude, I think you, your bank account, the military, and the world
(especially the middle east[*]) would be better served by your fixing
cars in the private sector. You can be well paid with a good satisfying
job (or your own business) living where you choose, or you can find
yourself stuck in a desert with sand in/on everything you touch, fixing
armored SUVs for less than optimal wages. The latter would be tough
enough if you believed in what you were doing. Thinking as you do, it
would be hell.

Sorry, but that's how I see it.

Bill

[*] I don't like war either, but we have no choice here. Look at what
is left of the WTC. Look at the pictures of the towers burning. Those
dots you see in the air outside the falling buildings were people
jumping because it was preferable to burning alive.

You are not Army material!