Hi all,

Bad day. My mag drill which I bought from Germany arrived and I think I
got screwed. It is a Hougen 10912 variable speed machine:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=7562715430

Cosmetically it looks good (as it does in the photos), but I can't get
it to work. I knew the feed handles weren't included and figured I could
get or make some easily. The magnet can be energised okay, although I am
surprised that I can pull it off a 1" thick piece of steel, and wonder
if this is normal? But I can't get the motor to run. I've read the
manual and know that it has a safety switch inside the magnet. The
safety switch makes the clicking noises I would expect when the magnet
is pressed against the steel, so there is no obvious problem with it,
and I am reluctant to try adjusting it just yet. One time the motor did
run briefly when I pressed the "on" button, but after three very short
spurts of power it died. There were quite noticeable and noisy sparks
coming from the brushes, and again I'm unsure if this is normal or not?
I tried for about another hour, but couldn't get it to run again. The
motor windings look okay (clean and not blackened) but I can't get the
brushes out. Normally I would expect them to slide out after the plastic
caps are unscrewed, but they don't. The control panel of the drill gets
quite warm, as does my 240 V - 110 V transformer, which suggests to me
that it is drawing more power than is consumed by the magnet. I wonder
if the thyristor pack or circuit board is dead. Any thoughts?

I have had pretty bad luck with eBay lately. In future I may only buy
more expensive tools from dealers, but I couldn't find a dealer with a
used mag drill. This Hougen looked more solid than most drills (and it
is - it just doesn't work), and in good condition, so I went for it.
With hindsight I guess there are one or two things I perhaps should have
spotted, but hindsight is a marvellous thing. I noticed another eBay
auction for a Hougen drill with very similar wording, which made me
think, but I concluded that because the seller was German and doesn't
speak English too well he probably just used it as a basis for his item
description. I sent him a brief message in German and he seemed pretty
friendly, but I don't relish the prospect of trying to construct a
complaint in German. Judging from the seller's other items, I suspect
this drill is ex-US Army, probably bought from a base in Germany. I am
pretty sure the guy didn't test it like he said, and the fact that he
included a British 240 V plug rather than a 110 V plug suggests that he
isn't familiar with the stuff he's selling. His packaging was somewhat
inadequate, too.

Any thoughts about what the problem with the drill might be, or about
how I should tackle the situation? I hate this kind of thing. I just
want things to be right first time.

Sorry for the long rant!

Chris

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:40:43 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi all,

But I can't get the motor to run.

Contact the buyer and ask him how he tested it to know it's good.

I have had pretty bad luck with eBay lately. In future I may only buy
more expensive tools from dealers, but I couldn't find a dealer with a
used mag drill.

What was this seller's feedback? Did he specifically say it works in
the listing? (I can't get there from here). And, what's a "dealer"
anyway? Anyone can have an eBay store and look like a dealer, for 16
bucks a month.

Any thoughts about what the problem with the drill might be, or about
how I should tackle the situation? I hate this kind of thing. I just
want things to be right first time.

Yeah, ask the seller what the deal is. Why would you even consider
doing anything else first?

Dave Hinz

Sure hope you paid with a credit card .. in that case, it's easy, you write your
card company a letter saying someone ripped you off and please cancel the
charge, then you write the seller telling him he has 3 days to come get his
garbage if he wants it back.

Sorry if you didn't, but you can regard it as a lesson in that unfortunate event.

I wonder how much it would cost you to fit a new motor?

GWE

Christopher Tidy wrote:

Hi all,

Bad day. My mag drill which I bought from Germany arrived and I think I
got screwed. It is a Hougen 10912 variable speed machine:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=7562715430

Cosmetically it looks good (as it does in the photos), but I can't get
it to work. I knew the feed handles weren't included and figured I could
get or make some easily. The magnet can be energised okay, although I am
surprised that I can pull it off a 1" thick piece of steel, and wonder
if this is normal? But I can't get the motor to run. I've read the
manual and know that it has a safety switch inside the magnet. The
safety switch makes the clicking noises I would expect when the magnet
is pressed against the steel, so there is no obvious problem with it,
and I am reluctant to try adjusting it just yet. One time the motor did
run briefly when I pressed the "on" button, but after three very short
spurts of power it died. There were quite noticeable and noisy sparks
coming from the brushes, and again I'm unsure if this is normal or not?
I tried for about another hour, but couldn't get it to run again. The
motor windings look okay (clean and not blackened) but I can't get the
brushes out. Normally I would expect them to slide out after the plastic
caps are unscrewed, but they don't. The control panel of the drill gets
quite warm, as does my 240 V - 110 V transformer, which suggests to me
that it is drawing more power than is consumed by the magnet. I wonder
if the thyristor pack or circuit board is dead. Any thoughts?

I have had pretty bad luck with eBay lately. In future I may only buy
more expensive tools from dealers, but I couldn't find a dealer with a
used mag drill. This Hougen looked more solid than most drills (and it
is - it just doesn't work), and in good condition, so I went for it.
With hindsight I guess there are one or two things I perhaps should have
spotted, but hindsight is a marvellous thing. I noticed another eBay
auction for a Hougen drill with very similar wording, which made me
think, but I concluded that because the seller was German and doesn't
speak English too well he probably just used it as a basis for his item
description. I sent him a brief message in German and he seemed pretty
friendly, but I don't relish the prospect of trying to construct a
complaint in German. Judging from the seller's other items, I suspect
this drill is ex-US Army, probably bought from a base in Germany. I am
pretty sure the guy didn't test it like he said, and the fact that he
included a British 240 V plug rather than a 110 V plug suggests that he
isn't familiar with the stuff he's selling. His packaging was somewhat
inadequate, too.

Any thoughts about what the problem with the drill might be, or about
how I should tackle the situation? I hate this kind of thing. I just
want things to be right first time.

Sorry for the long rant!

Chris

For whatever it's worth, they do show both 115v and 230v motors for the
10912.
http://www.hougen.com/downloads/drill_pdf/10912.pdf
Perhaps the one you got is actually a 230v unit that was either in the
wrong box, had the wrong manual, had been retro-fitted... or whatever?
That would explain the "dummy" sending you the 240v plug, no?
Just a thought, it seems like you don't have enough voltage for either
the magnet or the motor.
David




"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

Bad day. My mag drill which I bought from Germany arrived and I think I
got screwed. It is a Hougen 10912 variable speed machine:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=7562715430

Cosmetically it looks good (as it does in the photos), but I can't get it
to work. I knew the feed handles weren't included and figured I could get
or make some easily. The magnet can be energised okay, although I am
surprised that I can pull it off a 1" thick piece of steel, and wonder if
this is normal? But I can't get the motor to run. I've read the manual and
know that it has a safety switch inside the magnet. The safety switch
makes the clicking noises I would expect when the magnet is pressed
against the steel, so there is no obvious problem with it, and I am
reluctant to try adjusting it just yet. One time the motor did run briefly
when I pressed the "on" button, but after three very short spurts of power
it died. There were quite noticeable and noisy sparks coming from the
brushes, and again I'm unsure if this is normal or not? I tried for about
another hour, but couldn't get it to run again. The motor windings look
okay (clean and not blackened) but I can't get the brushes out. Normally I
would expect them to slide out after the plastic caps are unscrewed, but
they don't. The control panel of the drill gets quite warm, as does my 240
V - 110 V transformer, which suggests to me that it is drawing more power
than is consumed by the magnet. I wonder if the thyristor pack or circuit
board is dead. Any thoughts?

I have had pretty bad luck with eBay lately. In future I may only buy more
expensive tools from dealers, but I couldn't find a dealer with a used mag
drill. This Hougen looked more solid than most drills (and it is - it just
doesn't work), and in good condition, so I went for it. With hindsight I
guess there are one or two things I perhaps should have spotted, but
hindsight is a marvellous thing. I noticed another eBay auction for a
Hougen drill with very similar wording, which made me think, but I
concluded that because the seller was German and doesn't speak English too
well he probably just used it as a basis for his item description. I sent
him a brief message in German and he seemed pretty friendly, but I don't
relish the prospect of trying to construct a complaint in German. Judging
from the seller's other items, I suspect this drill is ex-US Army,
probably bought from a base in Germany. I am pretty sure the guy didn't
test it like he said, and the fact that he included a British 240 V plug
rather than a 110 V plug suggests that he isn't familiar with the stuff
he's selling. His packaging was somewhat inadequate, too.

Any thoughts about what the problem with the drill might be, or about how
I should tackle the situation? I hate this kind of thing. I just want
things to be right first time.

Sorry for the long rant!

Chris

Dave Hinz wrote:
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:40:43 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy wrote:

Hi all,

But I can't get the motor to run.


Contact the buyer and ask him how he tested it to know it's good.


I have had pretty bad luck with eBay lately. In future I may only buy
more expensive tools from dealers, but I couldn't find a dealer with a
used mag drill.


What was this seller's feedback? Did he specifically say it works in
the listing? (I can't get there from here).

His feedback is 25, 100% positive. He said in the listing "magnet and
drill are both strong".

And, what's a "dealer"
anyway? Anyone can have an eBay store and look like a dealer, for 16
bucks a month.

I mean a dealer who you can speak to on the phone, who has a warehouse
where you can inspect the stuff before you buy.

Any thoughts about what the problem with the drill might be, or about
how I should tackle the situation? I hate this kind of thing. I just
want things to be right first time.


Yeah, ask the seller what the deal is. Why would you even consider
doing anything else first?

I was asking if there any obvious technical points I've missed (such as
a safety feature which I haven't understood) which means it's my fault
that the drill isn't working?

Best wishes,

Chris

Grant Erwin wrote:
Sure hope you paid with a credit card .. in that case, it's easy, you
write your card company a letter saying someone ripped you off and
please cancel the charge, then you write the seller telling him he has 3
days to come get his garbage if he wants it back.

I paid by PayPal. I'm not sure if I can resolve this through my credit
card company, but if I don't get anywhere direct I will file a complaint
with PayPal. I think UK law regarding chargebacks may be different to
that in the US, but I'll look into it.

Sorry if you didn't, but you can regard it as a lesson in that
unfortunate event.

I wonder how much it would cost you to fit a new motor?

My first guess is that the circuit board or thyristor pack are bad, not
the motor.

Chris

David,

I think it's unlikely that it is a 240 V model. The control panel
clearly says 115 V on it, plus it is wired with a standard US 115 V
plug. The seller advertised it as 115 V, too. I will check the part
number on the motor, though. My transformer officially produces 110 V,
but I think it's most unlikely a few volts would cause these problems.

Chris

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

Bad day. My mag drill which I bought from Germany arrived and I think I
got screwed. It is a Hougen 10912 variable speed machine:
snip

My grandfather had a similar problem. Grandma died, and he started
cavorting with two twenty year old twins from the neighborhood.

One day, the twins woke up, the three of them in the same bed. Grandpa was
cold dead.

Police were suspicious, because he had given the twins money and expensive
items.

An autopsy revealed that Grandpa just wasn't wired for two twenty.

Help this helps.

Steve

"SteveB" wrote in message
news:HuFjf.54944$qw.38616@fed1read07...

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

Bad day. My mag drill which I bought from Germany arrived and I think I
got screwed. It is a Hougen 10912 variable speed machine:
snip

My grandfather had a similar problem. Grandma died, and he started
cavorting with two twenty year old twins from the neighborhood.

One day, the twins woke up, the three of them in the same bed. Grandpa
was cold dead.

Police were suspicious, because he had given the twins money and expensive
items.

An autopsy revealed that Grandpa just wasn't wired for two twenty.

Help this helps.

Steve


You are a sick *******...love it!

SteveB wrote:
"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...

Hi all,

Bad day. My mag drill which I bought from Germany arrived and I think I
got screwed. It is a Hougen 10912 variable speed machine:

snip

My grandfather had a similar problem. Grandma died, and he started
cavorting with two twenty year old twins from the neighborhood.

One day, the twins woke up, the three of them in the same bed. Grandpa was
cold dead.

Police were suspicious, because he had given the twins money and expensive
items.

An autopsy revealed that Grandpa just wasn't wired for two twenty.

Help this helps.

Steve




Yes, twenty goes into eighty a lot more times than eighty can go into
twenty.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Christopher Tidy wrote:

The seller advertised it as 115 V, too.

I'm just wondering how the seller could check it? We have 230V here in
Germany and here it is _very_ uncommon that someone has a suitable
transformer.


Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige

Ignoramus607 wrote:
I would do this:

1) Send a polite email to the seller that says the same thing as your
usenet post

2) Get a manual online if possible

3) Try to find out if there is something obviously wrong in the setup,
by tracing electrical signals with a multimeter.

The weak magnet is suggestive that perhaps the drill is in fact a 220V
drill and not 115V? That could explain many things like hot windings
and weak magnet.

i

I had a close look at the drill. It says 115 V on it in two places, plus
it has a 115 V plug, so I think it's most unlikely that it has been
converted to 240 V. It would just be way too much work. Also the motor
windings look rather thick for the windings of a 240 V motor, so I am
pretty sure it is 115 V. I brought it into the house in case the voltage
drop in the shed was affecting it, but it behaved just the same. I know
it's hard to tell, but when it did run very briefly, the motor didn't
sound sluggish - it sounded more like it was running on interrupted
current. I've got the manual and would try testing it with a multimeter,
but it looks like a major disassembly job. You don't just have to remove
the panel, but the magnet too.

Chris

I had a close look at the drill. It says 115 V on it in two places, plus
it has a 115 V plug, so I think it's most unlikely that it has been
converted to 240 V. It would just be way too much work. Also the motor
windings look rather thick for the windings of a 240 V motor, so I am
pretty sure it is 115 V. I brought it into the house in case the voltage
drop in the shed was affecting it, but it behaved just the same. I know
it's hard to tell, but when it did run very briefly, the motor didn't
sound sluggish - it sounded more like it was running on interrupted
current. I've got the manual and would try testing it with a multimeter,
but it looks like a major disassembly job. You don't just have to remove
the panel, but the magnet too.

Chris


How about a broken wire near the stress protector?

Does the SCR pack make DC power for the magnet? Does the motor run DC,
too?
Maybe you're only getting 1/2 wave rectified DC power... due to a blown
diode (or whatever is a an SCR pack)?
David


"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message

My first guess is that the circuit board or thyristor pack are bad, not
the motor.

Chris

Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi all,

Bad day. My mag drill which I bought from Germany arrived and I think I
got screwed. It is a Hougen 10912 variable speed machine:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=7562715430

Cosmetically it looks good (as it does in the photos), but I can't get
it to work. I knew the feed handles weren't included and figured I could
get or make some easily. The magnet can be energised okay, although
I am surprised that I can pull it off a 1" thick piece of steel, and wonder
if this is normal? But I can't get the motor to run.
[...]

You are in the North America? Maybe the German guy plugged it into
240VAC ?

What frequency is the motor? I believe Germany uses 50 Hz. Might be a
switch to change it.

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

Bad day. My mag drill which I bought from Germany arrived and I think I
got screwed. It is a Hougen 10912 variable speed machine:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=7562715430

Cosmetically it looks good (as it does in the photos), but I can't get
it to work. I knew the feed handles weren't included and figured I could
get or make some easily. The magnet can be energised okay, although I am
surprised that I can pull it off a 1" thick piece of steel, and wonder
if this is normal? But I can't get the motor to run. I've read the
manual and know that it has a safety switch inside the magnet. The
safety switch makes the clicking noises I would expect when the magnet
is pressed against the steel, so there is no obvious problem with it,
and I am reluctant to try adjusting it just yet. One time the motor did
run briefly when I pressed the "on" button, but after three very short
spurts of power it died. There were quite noticeable and noisy sparks
coming from the brushes, and again I'm unsure if this is normal or not?
I tried for about another hour, but couldn't get it to run again. The
motor windings look okay (clean and not blackened) but I can't get the
brushes out. Normally I would expect them to slide out after the plastic
caps are unscrewed, but they don't. The control panel of the drill gets
quite warm, as does my 240 V - 110 V transformer, which suggests to me
that it is drawing more power than is consumed by the magnet. I wonder
if the thyristor pack or circuit board is dead. Any thoughts?

I have had pretty bad luck with eBay lately. In future I may only buy
more expensive tools from dealers, but I couldn't find a dealer with a
used mag drill. This Hougen looked more solid than most drills (and it
is - it just doesn't work), and in good condition, so I went for it.
With hindsight I guess there are one or two things I perhaps should have
spotted, but hindsight is a marvellous thing. I noticed another eBay
auction for a Hougen drill with very similar wording, which made me
think, but I concluded that because the seller was German and doesn't
speak English too well he probably just used it as a basis for his item
description. I sent him a brief message in German and he seemed pretty
friendly, but I don't relish the prospect of trying to construct a
complaint in German. Judging from the seller's other items, I suspect
this drill is ex-US Army, probably bought from a base in Germany. I am
pretty sure the guy didn't test it like he said, and the fact that he
included a British 240 V plug rather than a 110 V plug suggests that he
isn't familiar with the stuff he's selling. His packaging was somewhat
inadequate, too.

Any thoughts about what the problem with the drill might be, or about
how I should tackle the situation? I hate this kind of thing. I just
want things to be right first time.

Sorry for the long rant!

Chris

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:29:11 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Ignoramus607 wrote:
I would do this:

1) Send a polite email to the seller that says the same thing as your
usenet post

2) Get a manual online if possible

3) Try to find out if there is something obviously wrong in the setup,
by tracing electrical signals with a multimeter.

The weak magnet is suggestive that perhaps the drill is in fact a 220V
drill and not 115V? That could explain many things like hot windings
and weak magnet.

i

I had a close look at the drill. It says 115 V on it in two places, plus
it has a 115 V plug, so I think it's most unlikely that it has been
converted to 240 V. It would just be way too much work. Also the motor
windings look rather thick for the windings of a 240 V motor, so I am
pretty sure it is 115 V. I brought it into the house in case the voltage
drop in the shed was affecting it, but it behaved just the same. I know
it's hard to tell, but when it did run very briefly, the motor didn't
sound sluggish - it sounded more like it was running on interrupted
current. I've got the manual and would try testing it with a multimeter,
but it looks like a major disassembly job. You don't just have to remove
the panel, but the magnet too.

It sounds a lot like the brushes are worn out and barely making
contact. At least that would be the first place I'd check

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

Chief McGee wrote:

I believe Germany uses 50 Hz.

It is.


Might be a switch to change it.

Dealing with motors, that doesn't matter much. It will only change the
RPM.


Nick

--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO - YADRO - Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige

In article ,
Jon Elson wrote:

after three very short spurts of power it died. There were quite
noticeable and noisy sparks coming from the brushes, and again I'm
unsure if this is normal or not?

No, it isn't normal. A very good chance a brush holder was damaged in
shipping,
or the brushes are just at the edge of worn out. A new set of brushes
might be
found at the hardware store for a couple Dollars.

I tried for about another hour, but couldn't get it to run again. The
motor windings look okay (clean and not blackened) but I can't get the
brushes out. Normally I would expect them to slide out after the
plastic caps are unscrewed, but they don't.

Hmm, it is possible the brush holders have melted.

Yeah, this all sounds pretty much like when the brushes on my
bosch-walkee (a red drill that looked exactly like a blue drill, and was
made in germany, just like the blue tools) hammer drill crapped out. One
took a brush holder with it, and (of course) the only way to buy one of
those was with a kit including both of those and the switch...

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Wayne Cook wrote:
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:29:11 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:


Ignoramus607 wrote:

I would do this:

1) Send a polite email to the seller that says the same thing as your
usenet post

2) Get a manual online if possible

3) Try to find out if there is something obviously wrong in the setup,
by tracing electrical signals with a multimeter.

The weak magnet is suggestive that perhaps the drill is in fact a 220V
drill and not 115V? That could explain many things like hot windings
and weak magnet.

i

I had a close look at the drill. It says 115 V on it in two places, plus
it has a 115 V plug, so I think it's most unlikely that it has been
converted to 240 V. It would just be way too much work. Also the motor
windings look rather thick for the windings of a 240 V motor, so I am
pretty sure it is 115 V. I brought it into the house in case the voltage
drop in the shed was affecting it, but it behaved just the same. I know
it's hard to tell, but when it did run very briefly, the motor didn't
sound sluggish - it sounded more like it was running on interrupted
current. I've got the manual and would try testing it with a multimeter,
but it looks like a major disassembly job. You don't just have to remove
the panel, but the magnet too.


It sounds a lot like the brushes are worn out and barely making
contact. At least that would be the first place I'd check

Thanks, Wayne. I think you could well be right, but I'm not sure it's
the whole story. Shining a torch into the motor's vents I can see the
brushes and commutator. There does appear to be a very small gap between
each brush and the commutator, although it's so small I can't tell for
sure. It just doesn't look quite right. Also, when I turn the motor by
hand the silky whirr which usually comes from a commutator sounds a bit
faint. But although the brushes are short, they don't look completely
used up. I think they probably have 1/8" of life left in them. Both
brushes just seem to have seized solid in the brass channels. I can't
pull them out using the copper cable, because I sense that if I pull
much harder it will break away from the carbon block. I can't move them
forward with a small allen key in the channel, either; they are locked
absolutely solid. There are no obvious signs of overheating in the
motor, although I did find an odd speck of solder under one brush cover.
The commutator looks okay except for two opposite sectors which have a
little white deposit on them. I am puzzled as to how this might have
happened, and overall the motor doesn't look bad, but it will certainly
need new brushes and probably disassembly to make it work. I checked for
a broken wire between the motor and drill body, as Dave suggested, but
it looks fine and wiggling has no effect.

So now I need to decide what to do. Had I known the drill was not
working I wouldn't have bid, because I don't need another project, and
this seems good enough reason to ask for a full refund. But it will be a
pain and I might have trouble getting him to refund the postage. I might
be better asking him for a partial refund to cover the cost of parts and
the fact that I will have spent 6+ hours trying to sort the problem out.
But now I'm a bit suspicious about what has been done to this machine.
It's so disappointing when you save your cash for a tool, do everything
you can to make the right choice, and still end up with a turkey. I
think I'll have some beer and think it over until morning...

Chris

PS: Anyone know what the "impactor" and "slide hammer" do on these
magnetic drills? I haven't worked it out, and the manual doesn't explain.

paypal will refund most of your money though it is a tedious process,

what you have is not a mag drill , but a mag-annular cutter driver , they
tend to have much weaker magnets than say a Milwaukee or other brand mag
base drill

I would have the unit looked at by a tool repair shop before going further ,
very much possible it was hit with 240/250 volts , does the motor smell
burnt?

if it is bad , paypal will try to mediate the process and a settlement , do
not ship the item back until you have received a refund , also if you paid
with a credit card to paypal that would be the best choice before paypal

Is Al Babin on vacation in Germany?

Hougen mag drills are very sensitive to making complete plate contact before
they will start up. If they lose contact they will stop. Try it on a flat
plate kike a table saw table.
We have several in our shop. I also was given one that I passed on to a
buddy who had a fab shop. The circuit board was damaged.
The control of the motor starting and magnet is pretty complex with a
circuit board inside the switch panel. Mine had been soldered several times
in an attempt to repair.
Open the switch /control panel. Try hot wiring the motor and seeing if
it will run. Hot wire the magnet and see if it will energise. The button
switch that must be closed is troublesome to adjust.
I mounted a motor switch that bypassed the safety interlock. I first
energised the magnet then used my extra switch to start the motor.
Doing this bypasses all the safety features and opens up the chance of
personal injury.


Randy


"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

Bad day. My mag drill which I bought from Germany arrived and I think I
got screwed. It is a Hougen 10912 variable speed machine:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=7562715430

Cosmetically it looks good (as it does in the photos), but I can't get
it to work.
snip

Is it a 220 v machine ? Might be the reason for weak magnets.

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Christopher Tidy wrote:
Hi all,

Bad day. My mag drill which I bought from Germany arrived and I think I
got screwed. It is a Hougen 10912 variable speed machine:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=7562715430

Cosmetically it looks good (as it does in the photos), but I can't get
it to work. I knew the feed handles weren't included and figured I could
get or make some easily. The magnet can be energised okay, although I am
surprised that I can pull it off a 1" thick piece of steel, and wonder
if this is normal? But I can't get the motor to run. I've read the
manual and know that it has a safety switch inside the magnet. The
safety switch makes the clicking noises I would expect when the magnet
is pressed against the steel, so there is no obvious problem with it,
and I am reluctant to try adjusting it just yet. One time the motor did
run briefly when I pressed the "on" button, but after three very short
spurts of power it died. There were quite noticeable and noisy sparks
coming from the brushes, and again I'm unsure if this is normal or not?
I tried for about another hour, but couldn't get it to run again. The
motor windings look okay (clean and not blackened) but I can't get the
brushes out. Normally I would expect them to slide out after the plastic
caps are unscrewed, but they don't. The control panel of the drill gets
quite warm, as does my 240 V - 110 V transformer, which suggests to me
that it is drawing more power than is consumed by the magnet. I wonder
if the thyristor pack or circuit board is dead. Any thoughts?

I have had pretty bad luck with eBay lately. In future I may only buy
more expensive tools from dealers, but I couldn't find a dealer with a
used mag drill. This Hougen looked more solid than most drills (and it
is - it just doesn't work), and in good condition, so I went for it.
With hindsight I guess there are one or two things I perhaps should have
spotted, but hindsight is a marvellous thing. I noticed another eBay
auction for a Hougen drill with very similar wording, which made me
think, but I concluded that because the seller was German and doesn't
speak English too well he probably just used it as a basis for his item
description. I sent him a brief message in German and he seemed pretty
friendly, but I don't relish the prospect of trying to construct a
complaint in German. Judging from the seller's other items, I suspect
this drill is ex-US Army, probably bought from a base in Germany. I am
pretty sure the guy didn't test it like he said, and the fact that he
included a British 240 V plug rather than a 110 V plug suggests that he
isn't familiar with the stuff he's selling. His packaging was somewhat
inadequate, too.

Any thoughts about what the problem with the drill might be, or about
how I should tackle the situation? I hate this kind of thing. I just
want things to be right first time.

Sorry for the long rant!

Chris


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Christopher Tidy wrote:
Wayne Cook wrote:

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:29:11 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:


Ignoramus607 wrote:

I would do this:

1) Send a polite email to the seller that says the same thing as your
usenet post

2) Get a manual online if possible

3) Try to find out if there is something obviously wrong in the setup,
by tracing electrical signals with a multimeter.
The weak magnet is suggestive that perhaps the drill is in fact a 220V
drill and not 115V? That could explain many things like hot windings
and weak magnet.
i


I had a close look at the drill. It says 115 V on it in two places,
plus it has a 115 V plug, so I think it's most unlikely that it has
been converted to 240 V. It would just be way too much work. Also the
motor windings look rather thick for the windings of a 240 V motor,
so I am pretty sure it is 115 V. I brought it into the house in case
the voltage drop in the shed was affecting it, but it behaved just
the same. I know it's hard to tell, but when it did run very briefly,
the motor didn't sound sluggish - it sounded more like it was running
on interrupted current. I've got the manual and would try testing it
with a multimeter, but it looks like a major disassembly job. You
don't just have to remove the panel, but the magnet too.



It sounds a lot like the brushes are worn out and barely making
contact. At least that would be the first place I'd check


Thanks, Wayne. I think you could well be right, but I'm not sure it's
the whole story. Shining a torch into the motor's vents I can see the
brushes and commutator. There does appear to be a very small gap between
each brush and the commutator, although it's so small I can't tell for
sure. It just doesn't look quite right. Also, when I turn the motor by
hand the silky whirr which usually comes from a commutator sounds a bit
faint. But although the brushes are short, they don't look completely
used up. I think they probably have 1/8" of life left in them. Both
brushes just seem to have seized solid in the brass channels. I can't
pull them out using the copper cable, because I sense that if I pull
much harder it will break away from the carbon block. I can't move them
forward with a small allen key in the channel, either; they are locked
absolutely solid. There are no obvious signs of overheating in the
motor, although I did find an odd speck of solder under one brush cover.
The commutator looks okay except for two opposite sectors which have a
little white deposit on them. I am puzzled as to how this might have
happened, and overall the motor doesn't look bad, but it will certainly
need new brushes and probably disassembly to make it work. I checked for
a broken wire between the motor and drill body, as Dave suggested, but
it looks fine and wiggling has no effect.


It sounds likely that one of the commutator segments is burned
and that you have shorted turns on one of the armature windings
and cooked brushes . New commutator and brushes would be the fix
and the speed controller would have been subject to overcurrent
pulses and suspect as well. An armature tester ("growler") can
quickly diagnose shorted turns on an armature. There will not
necessarily be visible "cooking" as the damage could be on the
inside of the winding where the heat build up is greater.

If your German guy bought this from a US Army base, he may have tried to use
it on their 240 volt system- unlike 220 volts here, in Europe you have 2
240 volt lines, so without using a step down transformer, he may have smoked
the internals.
"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

Bad day. My mag drill which I bought from Germany arrived and I think I
got screwed. It is a Hougen 10912 variable speed machine:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=7562715430

Cosmetically it looks good (as it does in the photos), but I can't get
it to work. I knew the feed handles weren't included and figured I could
get or make some easily. The magnet can be energised okay, although I am
surprised that I can pull it off a 1" thick piece of steel, and wonder
if this is normal? But I can't get the motor to run. I've read the
manual and know that it has a safety switch inside the magnet. The
safety switch makes the clicking noises I would expect when the magnet
is pressed against the steel, so there is no obvious problem with it,
and I am reluctant to try adjusting it just yet. One time the motor did
run briefly when I pressed the "on" button, but after three very short
spurts of power it died. There were quite noticeable and noisy sparks
coming from the brushes, and again I'm unsure if this is normal or not?
I tried for about another hour, but couldn't get it to run again. The
motor windings look okay (clean and not blackened) but I can't get the
brushes out. Normally I would expect them to slide out after the plastic
caps are unscrewed, but they don't. The control panel of the drill gets
quite warm, as does my 240 V - 110 V transformer, which suggests to me
that it is drawing more power than is consumed by the magnet. I wonder
if the thyristor pack or circuit board is dead. Any thoughts?

I have had pretty bad luck with eBay lately. In future I may only buy
more expensive tools from dealers, but I couldn't find a dealer with a
used mag drill. This Hougen looked more solid than most drills (and it
is - it just doesn't work), and in good condition, so I went for it.
With hindsight I guess there are one or two things I perhaps should have
spotted, but hindsight is a marvellous thing. I noticed another eBay
auction for a Hougen drill with very similar wording, which made me
think, but I concluded that because the seller was German and doesn't
speak English too well he probably just used it as a basis for his item
description. I sent him a brief message in German and he seemed pretty
friendly, but I don't relish the prospect of trying to construct a
complaint in German. Judging from the seller's other items, I suspect
this drill is ex-US Army, probably bought from a base in Germany. I am
pretty sure the guy didn't test it like he said, and the fact that he
included a British 240 V plug rather than a 110 V plug suggests that he
isn't familiar with the stuff he's selling. His packaging was somewhat
inadequate, too.

Any thoughts about what the problem with the drill might be, or about
how I should tackle the situation? I hate this kind of thing. I just
want things to be right first time.

Sorry for the long rant!

Chris

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:31:53 +0100, (Nick Müller)
wrote:

Christopher Tidy wrote:

The seller advertised it as 115 V, too.

I'm just wondering how the seller could check it? We have 230V here in
Germany and here it is _very_ uncommon that someone has a suitable
transformer.


If he has access to US surplus to get a drill like this then he's
probably got access to a transformer for it. Those things where
everywhere when I was stationed over there in the 80's.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

The magnet can be energised okay, although I am surprised that I can pull
it off a 1" thick piece of steel, and wonder if this is normal?

No, it is not normal. I recently bought one of these at an auction and when
mounted on a block I have that is 1" or maybe 1.25" thick it would lock
itself down quite well. The block is about 6 inches wide by 2 feet long. I
don't think I ever tried to pick up the whole block but it would easily lift
an end off the table without coming loose and probably would have lifted the
whole block.

The safety switch is usually adjusted so that it has to lock itself down
very securely to trip the switch so if the magnet isn't holding well that
may be why the motor doesn't run. It has a spring-loaded plunger that
forces it up off of the metal if the magnet isn't on or it's not on thick
enough metal to hold well and that trips the safety switch.

But it sounds like the brushes are shot too. The brushes in the one I had
were over an inch long and came out quite easily.

One thing that was wrong with mine is that the insulation on the wires
within the cord from the controller to the motor was brittle and broken in
several places so I replaced it. I can't tell for sure but it looks like
your has been taped up and that indicates it may have the same problem and
should be fixed. Oddly enough the main power cable that you plug into the
wall was fine though.

Also you mention that you're using a step-down transformer to power it from
240V. Are you sure it can handle the load? IIRC the drill is rated at
something around 12amps.

And is it possible he ran it on 240V when it was "strong"? :-(

Actually the unit that I had was a Bosch which I later learned was made by
Hougen and it was a 10914 instead of the 10912 but they're very similar and
because it was Bosch I was able to find some helpful info that I might not
have found otherwise. Here's a link to a parts listing and troubleshooting
tips:

http://www.toolpartsdirect.com/image...vs.034.big.pdf

It's pretty easy to open it up and bypass the safety switch to be sure it's
not causing the problem. Also, the motor will not run if the magnet isn't
turned on so if you're troubleshooting it that way you're wasting time.
Don't ask me how I know! :-D

You can also find prices for parts at:

http://www.toolpartsdirect.com/cgi-b...ch/1967EVS.034

but hold onto your hat before you look because you'll be QUITE impressed by
how proud they are of those things! The motor for the 10914 is $635, the
magnet is $760 and the controller is $585!

In the event that you do not get it working and can't settle up with the
seller please keep me in mind because I sold mine to a friend and he needs
some parts so we may be able to work something out to get you a fair portion
of your money back. The one I bought was missing the shaft and associated
parts. Instead it had an adapter with a normal drill chuck on the end.
That's fine for most of what he wanted it for but he would like to have the
normal shaft that uses rotabroaches so he may be interested in purchasing it
from you. He knows what it would cost him new so he's very interested in
finding used and affordable parts. :-)

Best Regards,
Keith Marshall


"I'm not grown up enough to be so old!"


"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

Bad day. My mag drill which I bought from Germany arrived and I think I
got screwed. It is a Hougen 10912 variable speed machine:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=7562715430

Cosmetically it looks good (as it does in the photos), but I can't get it
to work. I knew the feed handles weren't included and figured I could get
or make some easily. The magnet can be energised okay, although I am
surprised that I can pull it off a 1" thick piece of steel, and wonder if
this is normal? But I can't get the motor to run. I've read the manual and
know that it has a safety switch inside the magnet. The safety switch
makes the clicking noises I would expect when the magnet is pressed
against the steel, so there is no obvious problem with it, and I am
reluctant to try adjusting it just yet. One time the motor did run briefly
when I pressed the "on" button, but after three very short spurts of power
it died. There were quite noticeable and noisy sparks coming from the
brushes, and again I'm unsure if this is normal or not? I tried for about
another hour, but couldn't get it to run again. The motor windings look
okay (clean and not blackened) but I can't get the brushes out. Normally I
would expect them to slide out after the plastic caps are unscrewed, but
they don't. The control panel of the drill gets quite warm, as does my 240
V - 110 V transformer, which suggests to me that it is drawing more power
than is consumed by the magnet. I wonder if the thyristor pack or circuit
board is dead. Any thoughts?

I have had pretty bad luck with eBay lately. In future I may only buy more
expensive tools from dealers, but I couldn't find a dealer with a used mag
drill. This Hougen looked more solid than most drills (and it is - it just
doesn't work), and in good condition, so I went for it. With hindsight I
guess there are one or two things I perhaps should have spotted, but
hindsight is a marvellous thing. I noticed another eBay auction for a
Hougen drill with very similar wording, which made me think, but I
concluded that because the seller was German and doesn't speak English too
well he probably just used it as a basis for his item description. I sent
him a brief message in German and he seemed pretty friendly, but I don't
relish the prospect of trying to construct a complaint in German. Judging
from the seller's other items, I suspect this drill is ex-US Army,
probably bought from a base in Germany. I am pretty sure the guy didn't
test it like he said, and the fact that he included a British 240 V plug
rather than a 110 V plug suggests that he isn't familiar with the stuff
he's selling. His packaging was somewhat inadequate, too.

Any thoughts about what the problem with the drill might be, or about how
I should tackle the situation? I hate this kind of thing. I just want
things to be right first time.

Sorry for the long rant!

Chris

On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 01:41:33 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Both brushes just seem to have seized solid in the brass channels. I can't
pull them out using the copper cable, because I sense that if I pull
much harder it will break away from the carbon block. I can't move them
forward with a small allen key in the channel, either; they are locked
absolutely solid.

There is at least one of your problems. Brushes must be able to
slide. Think about it: at some point in the past, a spring pressed
the brushes against the commutator to make contact and establish
contact presssure. If the brushes are then frozen in that
position, even the most minute wear will reduce contact pressure, and
eventually contact area diminishes to the point where the motor won't
run.

Remedies: get your money back, or get those brushes out of there and
replace them. You may have to pull the rotor and drive the brushes
out. They're just carbon; once the commutator is out of the way
they won't put up much of a fight.

Weak magnet could be due to an electronic problem. I'd look for an
open rectifier.

"Don Foreman" moaned
Both brushes just seem to have seized solid in the brass channels. I
can't
pull them out using the copper cable, because I sense that if I pull
much harder it will break away from the carbon block.

Some sintered copper/graphite brushes will swell upon long exposure to
moisture. You may have to distort the brush guides to get them out....
essentially, they're corrosion-welded to the guides.

LLoyd

Some sintered copper/graphite brushes will swell upon long exposure to
moisture. You may have to distort the brush guides to get them out....
essentially, they're corrosion-welded to the guides.

I've e-mailed the guy to explain the situation and ask how he tested it.
For the reasons I gave earlier, I am almost entirely sure this is a 115
V machine, so I don't think this is the problem. I have tested it on
several different plates of various thicknesses and can hear the safety
switch clicking, so I think that is okay. I doubt I can follow Lloyd's
advice and distort the brush guides to remove the brushes as the guides
are moulded into the motor housing. Unless I can chip or tap the brushes
out, it will need a new housing, but for now I don't wish to alter the
condition of the machine. I will wait and see what the seller has to say.

Keith, I will bear you in mind if I am unable to return or repair the
machine.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Chris

According to Nick Müller :
Chief McGee wrote:

I believe Germany uses 50 Hz.

It is.


Might be a switch to change it.

Dealing with motors, that doesn't matter much. It will only change the
RPM.

Not even that, with a universal motor. This one is described as
having brushes, so it should not be frequency sensitive -- all the way
down to DC.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I spent more time testing the drill today. As the brushes won't come
out, I removed the plastic caps and connected a multimeter to the
brushes. With the magnet energised a voltage of 80-140 V AC appears
across the motor. The voltage varies with the position of the speed
control knob as one one expect. So there is clearly a problem with the
brushes as Wayne suggested, but whether the armature and field coils are
okay, I don't know. All I can say is that they don't smell or look burnt.

The magnet still seems weak. Although it isn't really weak, I wouldn't
have great confidence using the machine for vertical or overhead work. I
arranged a test to give me some idea of the magnet's holding strength. I
attached it to a piece of 1" thick steel, with the magnetic base
vertical and the drill body just above the ground, and stacked some
weights on the side. Then I took moments to figure out the holding
strength. It is about 1/4 to 1/3 the 1740 lb quoted on the Hougen
website for a 1" thick plate. I think there could be a problem here, but
I'm not absolutely sure. What do people think?

I had a response from the seller this morning. He said he had the drill
tested for him using an appropriate transformer. I didn't mention
transformers in my e-mail to him. He seemed puzzled but not indignant. I
will tell him what I discovered today.

Chris

On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 22:45:37 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

I spent more time testing the drill today. As the brushes won't come
out, I removed the plastic caps and connected a multimeter to the
brushes. With the magnet energised a voltage of 80-140 V AC appears
across the motor. The voltage varies with the position of the speed
control knob as one one expect. So there is clearly a problem with the
brushes as Wayne suggested, but whether the armature and field coils are
okay, I don't know. All I can say is that they don't smell or look burnt.

One possibility is that the brushes got so short that they cocked in
the housing some. I've also seen them wear a little lip on the end
when worn down pretty far.

The magnet still seems weak. Although it isn't really weak, I wouldn't
have great confidence using the machine for vertical or overhead work. I
arranged a test to give me some idea of the magnet's holding strength. I
attached it to a piece of 1" thick steel, with the magnetic base
vertical and the drill body just above the ground, and stacked some
weights on the side. Then I took moments to figure out the holding
strength. It is about 1/4 to 1/3 the 1740 lb quoted on the Hougen
website for a 1" thick plate. I think there could be a problem here, but
I'm not absolutely sure. What do people think?

Well the strength quoted is on absolutely smooth and clean metal. In
other words a piece of precision ground stock. Any imperfections
reduce this number and in a hurry. I just got through using my
Milwaukee mag drill and since it was on about 1/4" stock with paint
the magnet didn't hold much at all. But it has a nice ledge that's
easy to c-clamp which I did use. On the other hand if I have it on a
nice thick piece that's really clean I do have to lean into it a good
bit before pushing it over side ways. Mine is rated at 1640lbs drill
point pressure for a comparison. You can find it here.

http://www.milwaukeeconnect.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=27&catalogId=40027&langId=-1&productId=284338&mainHeader=Tools&categoryId=189 341&mainCategoryId=362&parentProd=281164


I've not looked at there site but it's possible they're quoting
straight pull of strength and peeling off side ways like that isn't a
good test. Yes you can calculate it somewhat but also be aware that
only a small portion of the magnet is holding for that type of
peeling. The main portion doesn't have the leverage.


I had a response from the seller this morning. He said he had the drill
tested for him using an appropriate transformer. I didn't mention
transformers in my e-mail to him. He seemed puzzled but not indignant. I
will tell him what I discovered today.


Sounds like a good move.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

Christopher Tidy wrote:
The magnet still seems weak. Although it isn't really weak, I wouldn't
have great confidence using the machine for vertical or overhead work. I
arranged a test to give me some idea of the magnet's holding strength. I
attached it to a piece of 1" thick steel, with the magnetic base
vertical and the drill body just above the ground, and stacked some
weights on the side. Then I took moments to figure out the holding
strength. It is about 1/4 to 1/3 the 1740 lb quoted on the Hougen
website for a 1" thick plate. I think there could be a problem here, but
I'm not absolutely sure. What do people think?

I had a response from the seller this morning. He said he had the drill
tested for him using an appropriate transformer. I didn't mention
transformers in my e-mail to him. He seemed puzzled but not indignant. I
will tell him what I discovered today.


Is there any chance that the transformer that you are using is not up to
the job? That would explain a weak magnet. Can you run the motor without
the magnet energised? I have seen lots of odd things happen with
machinery on under-rated power supplies.

Bob