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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
If you were in my shoes.. what would you do?
A shaft is needed for a machine, 1.5" dia, but with a collar at the middle of it. The collar needs to be about 3" od and about 1/2" thick. Access to machining equipment is limited. No mill, and an abused lathe that is too old with only basic basic tooling. Budget being the eternal issue, I am planning on machining the collar out of mild steel and carefully TIG welding it into the shaft, and then re turning it to cut away excess weld and to make sure it's not crooked as hell. Has anyone tried this and failed because the shaft warped excessively? suggestions please... I would attempt to machine the shaft from larger stock, except it would be a first lesson on super close tolerances on the 1.5" as well as the nice finish. overall length of shaft is perhaps 12". Thanks for the advice - Loren |
#2
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
On 28 Nov 2005 20:23:43 -0800, "Loren"
wrote: If you were in my shoes.. what would you do? A shaft is needed for a machine, 1.5" dia, but with a collar at the middle of it. The collar needs to be about 3" od and about 1/2" thick. Access to machining equipment is limited. No mill, and an abused lathe that is too old with only basic basic tooling. Budget being the eternal issue, I am planning on machining the collar out of mild steel and carefully TIG welding it into the shaft, and then re turning it to cut away excess weld and to make sure it's not crooked as hell. Has anyone tried this and failed because the shaft warped excessively? suggestions please... I would attempt to machine the shaft from larger stock, except it would be a first lesson on super close tolerances on the 1.5" as well as the nice finish. overall length of shaft is perhaps 12". Thanks for the advice - Loren Perhaps you could have the proper thing machined by someone here? Id be happy to do it as a project, if you have a decent print to work from. Gratis, but you pay the shipping. Depending on the loading..you could also make it a split coupler. Gunner, California "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
#3
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
A decent print I could do! Hell, I'll give it to you in Solidworks if
you desire. I appreciate the offer Gunner, thank you. How would you feel about a short section of NF thread at the ends, stepped down to whatever dia.. 3/4" 7/8" or 1".. would be fine. And of course two keyways to complicate things. oh yeah, all this times 3. sigh... yeah.. it's for a powered tubing roller and these are for the drive shafts. I'll go ahead with a test piece I think and by this weekend my choices will be more clear. Has anyone had success with a shaft weldment as an alternative to machining from stock? Thanks guys. - Loren |
#4
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
I did something like this with a shaft that someone had put some
brazing on. It was only 5/8" and looked a bit like a sausage. Had to grind the two spots where the bearings were to go. When I was done, it still looked like a sausage, but the bearings were concentric. :-) I don't think 1-1/2" should warp (much). Especially if you don't put too much heat into it. Maybe spot weld around then... The usual approach. Try it and see. DOC " .... I'll go ahead with a test piece I think and by this weekend my choices will be more clear. Has anyone had success with a shaft weldment as an alternative to machining from stock? Thanks guys. - Loren |
#5
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
On 28 Nov 2005 22:52:09 -0800, "Loren"
wrote: A decent print I could do! Hell, I'll give it to you in Solidworks if you desire. I appreciate the offer Gunner, thank you. How would you feel about a short section of NF thread at the ends, stepped down to whatever dia.. 3/4" 7/8" or 1".. would be fine. And of course two keyways to complicate things. oh yeah, all this times 3. sigh... yeah.. it's for a powered tubing roller and these are for the drive shafts. Send it in any common format. Shrug..Ive got most of the tools to decode it. I'll go ahead with a test piece I think and by this weekend my choices will be more clear. Has anyone had success with a shaft weldment as an alternative to machining from stock? Thanks guys. - Loren Ive welded shafts up to length before..motor shafts up to drivelines..and never did get them truely square, even when fixturing in V blocks. I always got some warpage at the weldment that required either bending/straightening to get it to run moderately true. Which means it really depends on what speed you are going to turn it. Ive got the HLV-H, so can do about 9x16 or so between centers. The 15x52 Clausing spit out an $80 drive belt..so its down at the moment, until I can figure out how so scrounge up a cheap/free one. Id be happy to do your project for you. I enjoy doing projects. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
#6
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
Loren wrote:
If you were in my shoes.. what would you do? A shaft is needed for a machine, 1.5" dia, but with a collar at the middle of it. ... Thanks for the advice - Loren I'd look real hard at a separate collar clamped or pinned to the shaft. If you use a taper pin it can be retightened if it works loose. Most of the shafts on my South Bend lathe are assembled with taper pins. jw |
#7
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
Make your collar a good fit. Bevel the hole for about 1/16th at 45 degrees
approximately. Braze with a silver alloy. The advantage of silver soldering or silver brazing is that the joint will be very strong, temperature distortion is minimal, and you will not need to machine off excess if you are careful. With TIg you will be putting too much heat into the shaft risking bending. The shaft and collar clearance can be as much as .005 I would try for around .003 plus to allow the silver alloy to suck in. Set the shaft vertical with a pipe sleeve on the outside to support the collar in the correct position. Apply flux paste to the shaft and collar hole before assembling. Randy "Loren" wrote in message oups.com... If you were in my shoes.. what would you do? A shaft is needed for a machine, 1.5" dia, but with a collar at the middle of it. The collar needs to be about 3" od and about 1/2" thick. Access to machining equipment is limited. No mill, and an abused lathe that is too old with only basic basic tooling. Budget being the eternal issue, I am planning on machining the collar out of mild steel and carefully TIG welding it into the shaft, and then re turning it to cut away excess weld and to make sure it's not crooked as hell. Has anyone tried this and failed because the shaft warped excessively? suggestions please... I would attempt to machine the shaft from larger stock, except it would be a first lesson on super close tolerances on the 1.5" as well as the nice finish. overall length of shaft is perhaps 12". Thanks for the advice - Loren |
#9
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
Id be happy to do your project for you. I enjoy doing projects. Gunner Hey Gunner! I have a near endless supply of projects. Could I get you to do them for me for free? |
#10
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:28:58 GMT, "Dave Lyon"
wrote: Id be happy to do your project for you. I enjoy doing projects. Gunner Hey Gunner! I have a near endless supply of projects. Could I get you to do them for me for free? Free is good. Whatcha got to trade? G Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
#11
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
According to :
Loren wrote: If you were in my shoes.. what would you do? A shaft is needed for a machine, 1.5" dia, but with a collar at the middle of it. ... Thanks for the advice - Loren I'd look real hard at a separate collar clamped or pinned to the shaft. If you use a taper pin it can be retightened if it works loose. And to add to the complexity -- you mentioned keyways in another branch of the thread. How close do they need to come to the collar? Given that, I would be tempted to make the shaft with a full-length keyway, and fit the collar to it with a key to prevent rotation, a setscrew to hold the key in firmly, and then the taper pin to lock it at a given point along the shaft. This way, the keyway can be cut in a single pass with a horizontal milling cutter -- a lot less trouble than trying to make a keyway up close to an integral collar. Good Luck, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#12
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
what are the advantages to a taper pin as opposed to a normal pin, or a
grade 8 bolt? would the pin be behind the collar or through it? The collar will be the platform for a roll bender die setup and it will be subjected to a thrust load, so I was considering cutting into the shaft to make a notch for a heavy duty clamp collar to sit in. so say, buy a collar for 1.375" or 1.25" shaft and turn that notch into the 1.5" shaft. that baby would never move, right? The shaft could be ordered with a keyway full length, and I could settle for tapped holes in the ends rather than stepped down thread. Also, easy to replace/service if it all crapped out on me.. Thanks guys - LP |
#13
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
In article 1133335342.174333.5720
@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, says... what are the advantages to a taper pin as opposed to a normal pin, or a grade 8 bolt? would the pin be behind the collar or through it? It's easier to get a good locational fit since you ream the pin hole with the collar in place and the taper makes it easy to produce an interference fit in both parts. Also easier to assemble and disassemble than a tight fitting straight pin since it only takes a few taps to seat or unseat the pin. The collar will be the platform for a roll bender die setup and it will be subjected to a thrust load, so I was considering cutting into the shaft to make a notch for a heavy duty clamp collar to sit in. so say, buy a collar for 1.375" or 1.25" shaft and turn that notch into the 1.5" shaft. that baby would never move, right? The collar mfrs publish data on the thrust required to move the collar... http://www.staffordmfg.com/pages/engdata_body.htm#5 The shaft could be ordered with a keyway full length, and I could settle for tapped holes in the ends rather than stepped down thread. Also, easy to replace/service if it all crapped out on me.. Definitely easier if you don't require close concentricity and the threads are somewhat smaller than the shaft. Tap the ends and screw long alloy hex socket set screws into the holes til they bottom out. Ned Simmons |
#14
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
Wow! Thanks for that Ned. So a collar with a mere 5/16" bolt
potentially will hold 3000lbs. This is a medium duty machine so I think that's good enough. Oh wait, what about knurling the shaft where the collar is positioned? I would guess that it would definitely improve the "bite"... right? it's easier than cutting into the shaft.. and in the end.. it's better for something to give a little instead of snap and fly I suppose. ok, Compare a mounted roller bearing and a mounted ball bearing. The dynamic load capacity is pretty much 2 to 1 in favor of the roller bearing. Information from mcmaster. I'm using flange mounted ball bearings and they have a 7200 lbs. dynamic load capacity. there will be six total working against the same load and this machine's tension force is by a hand operated screw leveraged by a sliding 36" or so handle. maybe less. The double set screw in each bearing is also somewhat needed to keep the shaft from moving in this situation. BUT... question: Do you think it would hinder the proper function of the ball bearing if there were press fit bronze sleeves contacting the shaft where it passes through the heavy plate that the bearings are attached to?? my theory is that the bronze bearing will take some of the stress from the load perpindicular to the shaft which is on the end, between the collar and threaded end. flawed? - LP |
#16
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Making a shaft with a collar... question
You should be aware that those ratings are for radial
loads. Mounted ball bearings (flange & pillow blocks, etc) are generally not recommended for axial (thrust) loads, and the axial load rating for mounted roller bearings is substantially less than the radial rating. Thanks Ned. Yes.. the dynamic load capacity is in reference to a radial load. I understand the difference. How are you sharing the load? It's quite difficult to do this reliably for bearings on a single shaft. This is a roll bender. it has 3 shafts.. the force from the tension screw is applied to all 3 shafts thus dividing the load. The only thrust load will be between the threaded end and the collar as the material in the roller deforms. It would be easier to be helpful if you were to give more information on what you're trying to accomplish. Ned Simmons Loren wrote: snip . it's for a powered tubing roller and these are for the drive shafts. so.. the question is.. do you think that combining ball bearings and bronze bearings will help each other enough to be worth the effort? I'm only concerned about whether or not the ball bearings will hold up because I have no convenient method for press fitting a roller bearing. I have a drill press and a ****ty lathe and its easier to drill and tap holes to attach flange bearings to a plate. Also.. will knurling a shaft improve the grab of a collar? - Loren |
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