Are some of these heavier than others? I want one that absolutely won't
fall over... You can't keep the darned magnet turned on all the time...
unless maybe I should try turning the magnet half on???

Dave wrote:

Are some of these heavier than others? I want one that absolutely won't
fall over... You can't keep the darned magnet turned on all the time...
unless maybe I should try turning the magnet half on???

Ya know, I have a bunch of those. I'd had a bunch more too, but all of the cheap
import ones (not counting Yuasa) didn't work very well so I let those go. I
point mine sort of straight up and down when I'm done with them and they do
stand up just fine, would probably fall down in an earthquake though.

GWE

"Dave" wrote in message
ups.com...
Are some of these heavier than others? I want one that absolutely won't
fall over... You can't keep the darned magnet turned on all the time...
unless maybe I should try turning the magnet half on???

Stability has nothing to do with weight (or, more precisely, mass). It has
to do with the center of mass (center of gravity) of an object, and the
forces acting upon it. So a very wide and short, lightweight indicator stand
base will be less prone to tipping over (i.e., more stable) than a very
heavy base that is tall and narrow.

However most mag bases have fairly similar, proportional dimensions (roughly
a square cube). So what you want for max stability is a base that is
dimensionally larger, thus concentrating more mass in the base than in the
arms. Lighter weight arms (e.g., aluminum) will also help to keep the center
of mass low.

Of course, if the arms are extended outward, they will increase the tipping
moment acting on the base, and if they are extended upward, they will raise
the center of mass (thus reducing stability). This negative effect will
increase with increasing mass of the item (e.g., indicator) being held by
the arm.

I'm curious though: why *can't* you keep the "darned magnet turned on all
the time" (except when moving/repositioning the base, of course)? It's not
as if the magnet will wear out or lose strength. You suggested turning the
magnet half-on, so it appears as if you are still placing it on a magnetic
surface. Perhaps you'll find the answer you're seeking if you were to
explain the actual problem that you're having.

- Michael

DeepDiver wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
ups.com...

Are some of these heavier than others? I want one that absolutely won't
fall over... You can't keep the darned magnet turned on all the time...
unless maybe I should try turning the magnet half on???


Stability has nothing to do with weight (or, more precisely, mass). It has
to do with the center of mass (center of gravity) of an object, and the
forces acting upon it. So a very wide and short, lightweight indicator stand
base will be less prone to tipping over (i.e., more stable) than a very
heavy base that is tall and narrow.

True by the strict definition, but if "stability" is being used in a
more generic sense, then stiffness will be a factor, and the amount of
material involved will make a difference.

In fact, I doubt stability is a design criterion, otherwise, they
wouldn't need the magnet to hold it in place.


However most mag bases have fairly similar, proportional dimensions (roughly
a square cube). So what you want for max stability is a base that is
dimensionally larger, thus concentrating more mass in the base than in the
arms. Lighter weight arms (e.g., aluminum) will also help to keep the center
of mass low.

That and one that is well made with good materials so that parts tighten
well, hold position, etc. To do a good job, a magnetic base and arm
needs to be a relatively rigid structure.

Ultimately, we probably are in agreement. I suspect the problem is not
that there is not enough metal, but that the offending item is poorly made.

Bill

DeepDiver wrote:
[...]
I'm curious though: why *can't* you keep the "darned magnet turned on all
the time" (except when moving/repositioning the base, of course)? It's not
as if the magnet will wear out or lose strength. You suggested turning the
magnet half-on, so it appears as if you are still placing it on a magnetic
surface. Perhaps you'll find the answer you're seeking if you were to
explain the actual problem that you're having.

- Michael

Ok, I'm sliding it around on my table and it stands up because it is
pressing on the workpiece, then I set it aside and forget that the
contact pressure was keeping it upright, and it falls over. Maybe if I
could turn the magnet "half on" a metal surface would keep it upright
and still allow you to slide it. But not on a wooden bench or surface
plate. The larger dials make balance even worse and can be annoying to
use on a surface plate. Are lead bases perhaps used on surface plates?

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
nk.net...
DeepDiver wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
ups.com...

Are some of these heavier than others? I want one that absolutely won't
fall over... You can't keep the darned magnet turned on all the time...
unless maybe I should try turning the magnet half on???


Stability has nothing to do with weight (or, more precisely, mass). It
has to do with the center of mass (center of gravity) of an object, and
the forces acting upon it. So a very wide and short, lightweight
indicator stand base will be less prone to tipping over (i.e., more
stable) than a very heavy base that is tall and narrow.

True by the strict definition, but if "stability" is being used in a more
generic sense, then stiffness will be a factor, and the amount of material
involved will make a difference.

In fact, I doubt stability is a design criterion, otherwise, they wouldn't
need the magnet to hold it in place.

Bill, please go back and re-read the original post. He was asking
specifically about stability (in the strictest definition). His problem
wasn't lack of rigidity or positional accuracy in the holder, but rather
that the base would tip over when not in use.

- Michael

"Dave" wrote in message
oups.com...
DeepDiver wrote:
Perhaps you'll find the answer you're seeking if you were to
explain the actual problem that you're having.

Ok, I'm sliding it around on my table and it stands up because it is
pressing on the workpiece, then I set it aside and forget that the
contact pressure was keeping it upright, and it falls over. Maybe if I
could turn the magnet "half on" a metal surface would keep it upright
and still allow you to slide it. But not on a wooden bench or surface
plate. The larger dials make balance even worse and can be annoying to
use on a surface plate. Are lead bases perhaps used on surface plates?

I suspect part of your problem is that you are using the wrong tool(s) for
the job. Again, it would help to know what it is you're trying to
accomplish, rather than simply what you are doing. Are you trying to set up
a part in a machine (e.g., centering a round part in a lathe chuck)? Or are
you trying to take dimensional measurements?

In any case, if you are using the pressure from the indicator on the part to
help support and stabilize your magnetic base, then that is one of your
problems.

- Michael

"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Dave" wrote in message
ups.com...
Are some of these heavier than others? I want one that absolutely won't
fall over... You can't keep the darned magnet turned on all the time...
unless maybe I should try turning the magnet half on???

Stability has nothing to do with weight (or, more precisely, mass). It has
to do with the center of mass (center of gravity) of an object, and the
forces acting upon it. So a very wide and short, lightweight indicator
stand base will be less prone to tipping over (i.e., more stable) than a
very heavy base that is tall and narrow.

However most mag bases have fairly similar, proportional dimensions
(roughly a square cube). So what you want for max stability is a base that
is dimensionally larger, thus concentrating more mass in the base than in
the arms. Lighter weight arms (e.g., aluminum) will also help to keep the
center of mass low.

Of course, if the arms are extended outward, they will increase the
tipping moment acting on the base, and if they are extended upward, they
will raise the center of mass (thus reducing stability). This negative
effect will increase with increasing mass of the item (e.g., indicator)
being held by the arm.

I'm curious though: why *can't* you keep the "darned magnet turned on all
the time" (except when moving/repositioning the base, of course)? It's not
as if the magnet will wear out or lose strength. You suggested turning the
magnet half-on, so it appears as if you are still placing it on a magnetic
surface. Perhaps you'll find the answer you're seeking if you were to
explain the actual problem that you're having.

- Michael

DeepDiver wrote:

I suspect part of your problem is that you are using the wrong tool(s) for
the job. Again, it would help to know what it is you're trying to
accomplish, rather than simply what you are doing. Are you trying to set up
a part in a machine (e.g., centering a round part in a lathe chuck)? Or are
you trying to take dimensional measurements?

In any case, if you are using the pressure from the indicator on the part to
help support and stabilize your magnetic base, then that is one of your
problems.

- Michael

Are you suggesting there are several types of magnetic bases an I am
using the wrong one? When I am measuring the part I don't notice that
the indicator pressure is keeping it upright because it is in place and
also I have my hand on it. As far as what I am attempting to accomplish
I am obviously verifying the part is flat on the table or checking
differential heights on the workpiece.

The correct device to use on a surface plate is the surface gage. Trying to
use a magnetically mounted device on a surface plate is asking for trouble.
Magnetic dial indicator holders aren't designed to be stable in the
non-magnetic condition. Without magnetic attaction they are unstable and
apt to be just plain wobbly. Personally, I am glad that mine is able to be
laid down so's I can put it away in a drawer.

Bob Swinney

"Dave" wrote in message
oups.com...
DeepDiver wrote:
[...]
I'm curious though: why *can't* you keep the "darned magnet turned on all
the time" (except when moving/repositioning the base, of course)? It's
not
as if the magnet will wear out or lose strength. You suggested turning
the
magnet half-on, so it appears as if you are still placing it on a
magnetic
surface. Perhaps you'll find the answer you're seeking if you were to
explain the actual problem that you're having.

- Michael

Ok, I'm sliding it around on my table and it stands up because it is
pressing on the workpiece, then I set it aside and forget that the
contact pressure was keeping it upright, and it falls over. Maybe if I
could turn the magnet "half on" a metal surface would keep it upright
and still allow you to slide it. But not on a wooden bench or surface
plate. The larger dials make balance even worse and can be annoying to
use on a surface plate. Are lead bases perhaps used on surface plates?

Sorry, I should have specified a granite surface plate. An indicator holder
might be ok on a cast iron surface plate.
Bob Swinney
"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...

"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Dave" wrote in message
ups.com...
Are some of these heavier than others? I want one that absolutely won't
fall over... You can't keep the darned magnet turned on all the time...
unless maybe I should try turning the magnet half on???

Stability has nothing to do with weight (or, more precisely, mass). It
has to do with the center of mass (center of gravity) of an object, and
the forces acting upon it. So a very wide and short, lightweight
indicator stand base will be less prone to tipping over (i.e., more
stable) than a very heavy base that is tall and narrow.

However most mag bases have fairly similar, proportional dimensions
(roughly a square cube). So what you want for max stability is a base
that is dimensionally larger, thus concentrating more mass in the base
than in the arms. Lighter weight arms (e.g., aluminum) will also help to
keep the center of mass low.

Of course, if the arms are extended outward, they will increase the
tipping moment acting on the base, and if they are extended upward, they
will raise the center of mass (thus reducing stability). This negative
effect will increase with increasing mass of the item (e.g., indicator)
being held by the arm.

I'm curious though: why *can't* you keep the "darned magnet turned on all
the time" (except when moving/repositioning the base, of course)? It's
not as if the magnet will wear out or lose strength. You suggested
turning the magnet half-on, so it appears as if you are still placing it
on a magnetic surface. Perhaps you'll find the answer you're seeking if
you were to explain the actual problem that you're having.

- Michael

"Dave" wrote in message
oups.com...
DeepDiver wrote:

I suspect part of your problem is that you are using the wrong tool(s)
for
the job. Again, it would help to know what it is you're trying to
accomplish, rather than simply what you are doing. Are you trying to set
up
a part in a machine (e.g., centering a round part in a lathe chuck)? Or
are
you trying to take dimensional measurements?

In any case, if you are using the pressure from the indicator on the part
to
help support and stabilize your magnetic base, then that is one of your
problems.

- Michael

Are you suggesting there are several types of magnetic bases
an I am using the wrong one?

No, I am suggesting that a magnetic base is not intended to be used as a
surface gage (which, apparently, is what you are trying to do).


When I am measuring the part I don't notice that the indicator
pressure is keeping it upright because it is in place and
also I have my hand on it.

Wrong tool and wrong technique.


As far as what I am attempting to accomplish I am obviously
verifying the part is flat on the table or checking differential
heights on the workpiece.

Perhaps obvious to you. But there was absolutely no hint of what you were
trying to accomplish in your first post, and your second post was ambiguous:
there were several possibilities based on the meager information you
provided. For example, you could have been trying to ensure that a part is
parallel to a milling table. In any case, you'll find that people are more
willing to take the time to assist you if you are willing to take the time
to provide more information (and are not snotty in your responses).

- Michael

Dave wrote:
Are some of these heavier than others?

You want one of the large indicator stands that were made by Brown and
Sharpe. They were supplied with the 744 dial test indicator.

Kevin Gallimore

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"Dave" wrote in
oups.com:



Are you suggesting there are several types of magnetic bases an I am
using the wrong one? When I am measuring the part I don't notice that
the indicator pressure is keeping it upright because it is in place
and also I have my hand on it. As far as what I am attempting to
accomplish I am obviously verifying the part is flat on the table or
checking differential heights on the workpiece.


What you need is a height gauge, not a magnetic base.


--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

Dave wrote:

As far as what I am attempting to accomplish
I am obviously verifying the part is flat on the table or checking
differential heights on the workpiece.

Dave:

As others have pointed out, a mag base holder isn't the "proper" tool
for the job. But if it's all you've got, you could magnetically mount
it on a small flat plate of steel (something dimensionally like 4" X 4"
X 1"), or anything reasonable.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

"Robert Swinney" wrote in
:

Sorry, I should have specified a granite surface plate. An indicator
holder might be ok on a cast iron surface plate.

Brown & Sharpe, among others, makes a magnetic surface gage. It is way more
stable than an ordinary mag base.


--

Dan

BottleBob wrote:
Dave wrote:

As far as what I am attempting to accomplish I am obviously verifying
the part is flat on the table or checking differential heights on the workpiece.

Dave:
As others have pointed out, a mag base holder isn't the "proper" tool
for the job. But if it's all you've got, you could magnetically mount
it on a small flat plate of steel (something dimensionally like 4" X 4"
X 1"), or anything reasonable.

So if you were checking that something was flat on your milling table
you wouldn't use a mag base?

I have several that I store by keeping them stuck to a steel plate above the
lathe. This is a beam that supports the floor above my basement, and I just
turn the magnet on. Keeps the indicator out of the way and safe. I use
three other cheap Chinese ones (base only) as "feather boards" on my table
saw in my woodshop. These I keep stuck to the side of a steel cabinet near
the saw.

You might want to consider screwing a steel plate to the wall near your
machine tools just for sticking magnetic bases, if you don't already have
something suitable.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Dave" wrote in message
ups.com...
Are some of these heavier than others? I want one that absolutely won't
fall over... You can't keep the darned magnet turned on all the time...
unless maybe I should try turning the magnet half on???

Robert Swinney wrote:
The correct device to use on a surface plate is the surface gage. Trying to
use a magnetically mounted device on a surface plate is asking for trouble.
Magnetic dial indicator holders aren't designed to be stable in the
non-magnetic condition. Without magnetic attaction they are unstable and
apt to be just plain wobbly. Personally, I am glad that mine is able to be
laid down so's I can put it away in a drawer.

The problem with a height gauge is that it doesn't have any reach. I'll
consider one of the larger mag bases that some have mentioned. Maybe
make a heavy steel base I can lock the mag base onto? Thanks.

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:27:39 -0500, "Bob Chilcoat"
wrote:

I have several that I store by keeping them stuck to a steel plate above the
lathe. This is a beam that supports the floor above my basement, and I just
turn the magnet on. Keeps the indicator out of the way and safe. I use
three other cheap Chinese ones (base only) as "feather boards" on my table
saw in my woodshop. These I keep stuck to the side of a steel cabinet near
the saw.

You might want to consider screwing a steel plate to the wall near your
machine tools just for sticking magnetic bases, if you don't already have
something suitable.
The fluorescent light over my lathe has enough magnets on the steel
reflector that it is tipped 1" off level.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

"Dave" wrote in
ups.com:

Robert Swinney wrote:
The correct device to use on a surface plate is the surface gage.
Trying to use a magnetically mounted device on a surface plate is
asking for trouble. Magnetic dial indicator holders aren't designed
to be stable in the non-magnetic condition. Without magnetic
attaction they are unstable and apt to be just plain wobbly.
Personally, I am glad that mine is able to be laid down so's I can
put it away in a drawer.

The problem with a height gauge is that it doesn't have any reach.
I'll consider one of the larger mag bases that some have mentioned.
Maybe make a heavy steel base I can lock the mag base onto? Thanks.



You need something like this one:

http://tinyurl.com/at3eh

Brown & Sharpe used to make one similar that had a long slotted base that
allowed you to position the vertical rod where you needed it. The one I
used had different height vertical and horizontal rods. I'm not sure who
else makes these now.


--

Dan