"Ed Huntress" wrote in message et...


I don't have access to the old reports anymore, but the MIT machine was
described as a computer-controlled machine. It had a vacuum-tube computer
controlling it. I don't recall if I ever read just what the functions of the
computer were.



Something a lot of people think today, but is not true :
that NC machines started off low-end and dumb and worked
their way up as technology improved. If anything, the
opposite is true. The early machines were limited by the
capabilities of their day, yes, but they started with APT
(which is still the most capable part programming system
around) for the purpose of making wing spars and such. It
was only fifteen years later that the technology "trickled
down" to machines that a well-off shop could afford. And
really, there hasn't been much *real* improvement over the
past thirty years. My 1962 Cincinnati H-40 when chatter-
milling was doing exactly what the latest-greatest Mori
Seiki with Fanuc 57B is doing when running a kellering
program right outta MasterCam : Point-to-point-to-point-
to-point-to-point ...... ever since the Japs and you
assholes who bought them ran the American machine
builders off, things have totally stagnated. Now that
a few Europeans have entered the picture things are
picking up a little, but sheesh ... Glen and his Jap
crap. Thanks, Buddy. Thanks just a heck of a lot.

Good catch!

Stan-

"john" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

"john" wrote in message
...
Kirk Gordon wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

That's pretty much it. It should be pointed out that it was
controlled
by a
computer, not by a simple logic controller, so it was also the
first
CNC
machine.

Really? Are you sure? I didn't know that!

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.


I think that was done with punch cards, one for each move. There was
no
memory storage as we know it today.Memory was limited by the number to
tubes in the control. One tube for each two bits of data. They did
have mechanical relays the were used. Think pin ball machines.


John

No, I don't think so, John. What you're describing sounds like some of
the
commercial machines that came out in the mid-'50s, like the J&L
Binotrol,
and the G&L Numericord.

I don't have access to the old reports anymore, but the MIT machine was
described as a computer-controlled machine. It had a vacuum-tube
computer
controlling it. I don't recall if I ever read just what the functions of
the
computer were.

Ed Huntress


Ed

I just found this site which goes into Parsons and MIT.

http://www.control.com/949951573/index_html


John

I thought the punch card and linked card machines used in textile
industry pre-dated the Holerith card and punch cards.

I'm sure CNC is there - but I believe Bell Labs pre dated MIT or
elsewhere.
The issue it was Military secret and never was part of history.
Maybe someday those dark days will see the light of day.

These are akin to the Kodak film that they developed with micro fine
chevrons
for high resolution - but for the Mil - Fuji went ahead with private
versions and made the big bucks. Much later - years and years they were
released only with new technology.

Martin [used early punch card printers and computers ]
[still has a TTY-AA/AS/U in 8 bits, gave away my 5 bit.]
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

"Errol Groff" wrote in message
...
I am preparing a research assignment for my students on this subject.
Looking for suggestions as to names which might be used as search
terms or links to sites that would be appropriate.

Also, I am not remembering the names that were involved in the
creation of the first NC machines back in the late forties/early
fifties. I know that the info is back in my head somewhere but it is
not coming forward. Help would be appreciated!

I don't want togfive the kids everything obviously but I do need to
give them enough to get started It is tough to do research on a
subject when you don't know enough about it to even know what
questions to ask.

Thanks for your help!

Errol Groff
Instructor, Machine Tool Department
H.H. Ellis Tech
613 Upper Maple Street
Danielson, CT 06239

860 774 8511 x1811

http://pages.cthome.net/errol.groff/

http://newenglandmodelengineeringsociety.org/



I've never poked around to see what they have, but this one might have
something http://www.seattlehistory.org/


--

Later,

Charlie

fix the e-mail address and it will get to me

i once was faced with the problem as to how the first screws where
made--my research into this opened up a whole field of interest--knowing
how this was done made me aware of teh beauty of machines--I suspect that
any student who does not appreciate the beauty of metal machines and what
goes into them probabvly will just be an automatron--do not interprete
this as derogatory just my own observations over the years--i am not a
machinist




On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 06:07:38 GMT, Ed Huntress
wrote:

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...

The history of Machine tools seems like it would be a interesting
subject, BUT... If I were in a limited time machine shop class for the
purpose of increasing my skill level with the hope of becoming an
employable entry level machinist, I think *I'd* (and probably
prospective shop owners might also) be more interested in just HOW to
edge find or indicator sweep my parts rather than knowing WHO designed
the first edge finder, or indicator, or CNC.
Don't take this wrong, I don't mean to be overly critical here, I'm
just giving you a view from a job-shop productivity standpoint. If I
were interviewing two prospective entry level apprentices I'd be more
inclined to hire the one that showed a knowledge of the practical
application of theory over one that had historical knowledge.

As far as it goes, I wouldn't disagree. But studying the background and
history of one's field is one mark of a professional, in the old sense of
the word. I'd like to think that people getting into the field as a
career,
rather than just as a job, would be interested in how their industry got
where it is today.

If the students aren't curious about it, then there isn't much point in
forcing it upon them. But I believe quite a few would be interested.

I used to lecture on dimensional metrology, often to young people who
were
new to the field, and I remember a lot of questions about the background
of
the technology. They seemed interested in the way things were done in
"the
old days," mostly because they were amazed at how one could measure to
such
extreme accuracies without the benefits of electronic technology.




--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

a few years back aparently a bucnh of massive old machines where being
transported somewhere--the trailors parked on a side street here in the
bronx--they where massive machines one I remeber was a shaper--first one i
ever saw--many looked like wwII stuff---what stories there machines could
have told!

i once got into the history of electron spark machining--discovered in
Russia by two brothers during the nazi invasion of Russia--whiss i could
find out modre about them






On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:04:19 GMT, Ed Huntress
wrote:

"john" wrote in message
...
Kirk Gordon wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

That's pretty much it. It should be pointed out that it was
controlled
by a
computer, not by a simple logic controller, so it was also the first
CNC
machine.

Really? Are you sure? I didn't know that!

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.


I think that was done with punch cards, one for each move. There was no
memory storage as we know it today.Memory was limited by the number to
tubes in the control. One tube for each two bits of data. They did
have mechanical relays the were used. Think pin ball machines.


John

No, I don't think so, John. What you're describing sounds like some of
the
commercial machines that came out in the mid-'50s, like the J&L Binotrol,
and the G&L Numericord.

I don't have access to the old reports anymore, but the MIT machine was
described as a computer-controlled machine. It had a vacuum-tube computer
controlling it. I don't recall if I ever read just what the functions of
the
computer were.

Ed Huntress





--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

"ilaboo" wrote in message
news

i once got into the history of electron spark machining--discovered in
Russia by two brothers during the nazi invasion of Russia--whiss i could
find out modre about them

Husband and wife, actually. The Lazarenkos.

That's a long story, and it's the one aspect of machine-tool history in
which I do claim some expertise. Whether you really want to credit the
Lazarenkos with the "discovery" depends on how you interpret some of the
earlier history.

The Lazarenkos claim to have made their "discovery" in 1943, at which time
they supposedly published a white paper on it in the Soviet Union. But the
paper wasn't released to the public nor to foreigners until after the war
was over.

In fact, there had been manual-servo tap-busters on the market since the
1920s. In the mid-to-late 1930s, some were being used for rough EDM
machining, such as eroding square holes. Liquid dielectric was in use with
these machines, and, contrary to much of what you'll read, so were RC
relaxation circuits. Just before the US entered WWII, the company that would
become Elox during the 1950s sold one or two machines to the Soviets *with
hydraulic servos*! In other words, every element that the Lazarenkos claim
to have "invented" was known and was in use years earlier -- although not,
from the history I've seen, all in the same machine.

This was about the time that the Soviets also claim to have invented
baseball, so take their claims with a big grain of salt. Right at the end of
the war the US Air Force was working on a secret method they called "Method
X." You'll see references to it in the magazines published around 1948 -
1949. Method X turns out to have been EDM, as well.

It was American Machinist that first published the Lazarenko story in the
US, around 1948, if I recall correctly, and it was Charmilles (Switzerland)
that has published their version of it over and over since around 1952. Most
of what you'll read is a repeat of the story as Charmilles tells it.

Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news
"john" wrote in message
...
Kirk Gordon wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

That's pretty much it. It should be pointed out that it was
controlled
by a
computer, not by a simple logic controller, so it was also the first
CNC
machine.

Really? Are you sure? I didn't know that!

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.


I think that was done with punch cards, one for each move. There was no
memory storage as we know it today.Memory was limited by the number to
tubes in the control. One tube for each two bits of data. They did
have mechanical relays the were used. Think pin ball machines.


John

No, I don't think so, John. What you're describing sounds like some of the
commercial machines that came out in the mid-'50s, like the J&L Binotrol,
and the G&L Numericord.

I don't have access to the old reports anymore, but the MIT machine was
described as a computer-controlled machine. It had a vacuum-tube computer
controlling it. I don't recall if I ever read just what the functions of
the
computer were.


Ed,

What bothers me is that prior to the wide spread application of nc / cnc,
profiling machines such as the Keller, and Morey and later the hydraulic
tracing units by Rosebrook, Tru trace, and H&H Wilson (Cincinnati even had a
Bridgeport sized one caled the "contourmaster") were quite common where high
precision contour milling for things like airframe components and molds, ect
were needed...........in fact all the very same industries where cnc is so
prevalent today.

These machine tools were in widespread use until as late as the mid
eighties, yet scant reference to them is to be found today--especially on
the internet.

When I started out in machining, cnc was too expensive for most shops, but
anyone doing aerospace work had several "profilers"....hell, one shop I
worked at in the early 80's likely had 30 of them in various forms,
converted planers and wilsons with up to eight spindles on them........

Sadly, it seems a whole generation of machine tools appears to be on the
verge of becoming lost in history.


--

SVL

ilaboo wrote:

i once was faced with the problem as to how the first screws where
made--my research into this opened up a whole field of interest--knowing
how this was done made me aware of teh beauty of machines--I suspect that
any student who does not appreciate the beauty of metal machines and what
goes into them probabvly will just be an automatron--do not interprete
this as derogatory just my own observations over the years--i am not a
machinist

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 06:07:38 GMT, Ed Huntress
wrote:

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...

The history of Machine tools seems like it would be a interesting
subject, BUT... If I were in a limited time machine shop class for the
purpose of increasing my skill level with the hope of becoming an
employable entry level machinist, I think *I'd* (and probably
prospective shop owners might also) be more interested in just HOW to
edge find or indicator sweep my parts rather than knowing WHO designed
the first edge finder, or indicator, or CNC.
Don't take this wrong, I don't mean to be overly critical here, I'm
just giving you a view from a job-shop productivity standpoint. If I
were interviewing two prospective entry level apprentices I'd be more
inclined to hire the one that showed a knowledge of the practical
application of theory over one that had historical knowledge.

As far as it goes, I wouldn't disagree. But studying the background and
history of one's field is one mark of a professional, in the old sense of
the word. I'd like to think that people getting into the field as a
career,
rather than just as a job, would be interested in how their industry got
where it is today.

If the students aren't curious about it, then there isn't much point in
forcing it upon them. But I believe quite a few would be interested.

I used to lecture on dimensional metrology, often to young people who
were
new to the field, and I remember a lot of questions about the background
of
the technology. They seemed interested in the way things were done in
"the
old days," mostly because they were amazed at how one could measure to
such
extreme accuracies without the benefits of electronic technology.


--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


I have seem some very old machines still being used in some shops. One
shop has a vertical boring mill from 1881 and anther one just as old. I
got some of the bolts I had to replace and you couldn't tell by looking
that they were that old except by the fact they had slot heads in stead
of hex or allen head. I have an heald internal grinder from 1911 that
does the job fine. Its been rescraped in and motors added but it runs
fine.

John

It's at Holland College, in PEI. (Atlantic Canada) Course info is on
their web site - http://www.hollandcollege.com/FactSheets/Machinist.htm.

I almost died doing my presentation. I thought my knees were going to
give out from under me. I lived through it though. We have another one
in three weeks. Argh. lol

chem


Sounds like a very aggressive program. Where's the school?

Actually the oral presentations can be fun if you don't take
them too seriously. They say the best way is to imagine your
audience with no clothes on.

=8-O

Works best only with certain audiences.

Don't over-prepare.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================


--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

Our book is the fourth edition. According to our outline we're only
doing Unit 57 in Section 6 - Compound Angles, and then we skip ahead to
the CNC section.

Our class has a big difference in the math level people are coming in
with. Some had general math in high school, and one guy took a couple
of math courses in university. For some of us it's been years since
math class in high school, so it's a bit rusty. Our teacher is cool
about that though - she works at a slow pace with the people who need
it, but if you feel comfortable with the material you can write the test
early and skip the rest of the classes for that section and go work in
the shop or whatever. Our pass is 70%, and the way our grading system
works, I don't think it matters if you get 70% or 100%. At the end of
the year we either pass math or we don't, and it just counts as one of
our skills. No final grade for the year. As far as I know. That's not
stopping me from trying to get the highest mark I can, but it's not such
a big deal if I get a couple of questions wrong. And the tests are
pretty short, so three wrong answers drops the mark quite a bit.

Some of the stuff in the book seems... Well, sometimes I feel like I
did in high school "When am I ever going to use this?" But for most of
it, I can see where I'll be applying it. We're doing algebra now, and
some of the people in class don't see why, but if you flip through
something like the Machinery's Handbook and see all the formulas...
Well, that answers that question.

Automotive reading, huh? Is that something related to work or just
something you're doing for yourself? What book are you reading right
now? I find the reading I've been doing a bit dry (I've been trying to
figure out some of this metallurgy stuff), but when it sinks in it's
like something just *clicks* and things start to make sense.

We did our CAD with AutoCAD LT. When we do CNC later on I think we use
MasterCAM (not sure if I got the name right, but it sounds something
like that).

Not sure what area I want to get into. I'd eventually like to be a tool
and die maker or something else that would make me think. The prospect
of being a button pusher for the rest of my life... Well, let's just
not go there...

chem


jon banquer wrote:

Hi,

"-half a day of math per week - our book is Mathematics for
Machine Technology"

Back in 1993 we used the same text. Ours was the third
edition. We never got to Unit 60 Machining Compound-Angular
Surfaces: Computing Angles Of Rotation and Tilt because many
in the class could not keep up and unfortunatly the
Connecticut adult education system leaves a lot to be
desired and teachs to the lowest level.

IMO this book could be a lot better but it's at least a move
in what I consider to be the right direction. I never do
trig that long way like they have you do it in the book.
Much easier for me to look at one of those charts that you
can find in something like a Carr-Lane book.

Lately I have been doing a ton of automotive reading,
downing a 120 page book about every 2 weeks. When I get done
reading what I want to I might just get motivated to do Unit
60. ;)

"but I've met a few machinists before I started school who
would have been easier to work with if they'd learned a few
of those things and followed them."

LOL. You will meet quite a few more. ;)

BTW, what CAD are they using to teach you ?

AutoCAD ?

Enjoyed your post. Hope you stick it out because IMO you do
have the right attitude to make it as a machinist. Have you
decided yet what area of machining you would like to go into ?

jon












"chem" wrote in message
...

I missed the OP about learning other things instead of just the
practical side of machining... I have to throw in my two cents, FWIW.
I'm taking an 8-9 month machining course. In addition to the practical,
hands-on stuff we also have:
-8 full days of CAD - spread out over a month
-half a day of math per week - our book is Mathematics for Machine
Technology, so we're actually learning things we'll be applying in the

shop

-half a day of communications class per week. This is the one that a
lot of the people in our class have trouble realizing the value of.
We've been covering positive attitudes, teamwork, time management,
presentations, and computer skills (email, word processing, etc. CAD
and CNC programming aren't covered in communications). Not really
anything you need to be a good (or even excellent) machinist, but I've
met a few machinists before I started school who would have been easier
to work with if they'd learned a few of those things and followed them.
(I hope it goes without saying - that's not just limited to
machinists... there are difficult people everywhere)
-We also have a machining textbook that we're supposed to work through
and videos to watch. We spend a couple of hours a week of classroom
time on this, working at our own pace.

CAD, math, and the textbook I've been having no troubles with.
Communications class is driving me nuts. I understand the usefulness of
it all, and I appreciate having the chance to learn the things we're
covering. I'm just feeling a bit down on it because I've got an oral
presentation coming up tomorrow.

Yeah, and I wish we'd had a shop program in high school too. Guess it
wouldn't have mattered much for me anyway because I had no idea what a
machine shop even was until i'd been out of high school for a few years.


chem

jon banquer wrote:


that topic could be covered in another class. Maybe make
it part of the english curriculum.


IMO, this would be the right approach. Those interested in
machining attend a english class that has been tailored to
their curriculum.



Just as the math classes should be oriented to machining.


Again, agreed. Wish I had a choice like this when I was in
high school.

Excellent post... almost makes up for your short sighted
anti-union one.

LOL

:)

jon









"john" wrote in message
...


BottleBob wrote:


Errol Groff wrote:


I am preparing a research assignment for my students on this subject.

Errol:

The history of Machine tools seems like it would be a

interesting


subject, BUT... If I were in a limited time machine shop class for the
purpose of increasing my skill level with the hope of becoming an
employable entry level machinist, I think *I'd* (and probably
prospective shop owners might also) be more interested in just HOW to
edge find or indicator sweep my parts rather than knowing WHO designed
the first edge finder, or indicator, or CNC.
Don't take this wrong, I don't mean to be overly critical here,

I'm


just giving you a view from a job-shop productivity standpoint. If I
were interviewing two prospective entry level apprentices I'd be more
inclined to hire the one that showed a knowledge of the practical
application of theory over one that had historical knowledge.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob


Errol,

that topic could be covered in another class. Maybe make it part of the
english curriculum. Just as the math classes should be oriented to
machining. It would make you job easier if you only had to fill their
brains with the actual machine operations.

John



--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl








--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

""PrecisionMachinisT"" wrote in message
...

Ed,

What bothers me is that prior to the wide spread application of nc / cnc,
profiling machines such as the Keller, and Morey and later the hydraulic
tracing units by Rosebrook, Tru trace, and H&H Wilson (Cincinnati even had
a
Bridgeport sized one caled the "contourmaster") were quite common where
high
precision contour milling for things like airframe components and molds,
ect
were needed...........in fact all the very same industries where cnc is so
prevalent today.

These machine tools were in widespread use until as late as the mid
eighties, yet scant reference to them is to be found today--especially on
the internet.

Yeah, they disappeared surprisingly fast. I've remarked before on the same
thing you've observed. I don't even know where they went.

Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

""PrecisionMachinisT"" wrote in message
...

Ed,

What bothers me is that prior to the wide spread application of nc / cnc,
profiling machines such as the Keller, and Morey and later the hydraulic
tracing units by Rosebrook, Tru trace, and H&H Wilson (Cincinnati even had
a
Bridgeport sized one caled the "contourmaster") were quite common where
high
precision contour milling for things like airframe components and molds,
ect
were needed...........in fact all the very same industries where cnc is so
prevalent today.

These machine tools were in widespread use until as late as the mid
eighties, yet scant reference to them is to be found today--especially on
the internet.

Yeah, they disappeared surprisingly fast. I've remarked before on the same
thing you've observed. I don't even know where they went.

Ed Huntress


I got an American Pacemaker in the shop with a tracer attachment and css
from the late 50's Its a shame to get rid of it but the cncs will do the
same thing better and faster.

John

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
""PrecisionMachinisT"" wrote in message
...


These machine tools were in widespread use until as late as the mid
eighties, yet scant reference to them is to be found today--especially
on
the internet.

Yeah, they disappeared surprisingly fast. I've remarked before on the same
thing you've observed. I don't even know where they went.


When Certified Aerospace went belly up in the mid/ ( late ? ) eighties, a
little Chinaman came to the auction and bought about twenty five of them,
large converted planer mills with hydraulic tracers, and also some Wilsons
that had cnc (Tera) controls--ballscrews, electric servos, and the whole
bit.

He was representing the Chinese government. I sometimes refer to machinery
this size as "Mother Machines"...........With a little ingenuity, they can
be easily put to use in mass production of smaller machine tools---as such,
I was saddened to see them leave our soil.

--

SVL

"Our book is the fourth edition. According to our outline
we're only doing Unit 57 in Section 6 - Compound Angles, and
then we skip ahead to the CNC section."

How long have you been enrolled in this machining class ?

"Our teacher is cool about that though - she works at a slow
pace with the people who need it, but if you feel
comfortable with the material you can write the test early
and skip the rest of the classes for that section and go
work in the shop or whatever"

Hope your trying to do this as much as possible. The more
hands on you can get with the schools machines, the easier it's
going to be on you when your no longer in school. Are you
working with both knee mills and lathes right now ?

"Automotive reading, huh? Is that something related to work
or just something you're doing for yourself?"

I see aerospace machining as a dead end job in
Phoenix, Arizona. I would like to broaden my skill base and
build high performance engines and various components that
are used on them. Perhaps 5 axis cylinder head work. I can
see going into business for myself in the future doing high
performance engine related work. I would never want to open
my own machining job shop. Don't like what you have to put
up with to do business with Honeywell which is who most
companies in Phoenix do business with or do a large part of
their business with.

"What book are you reading right now?"

Stayed up most of last night and finished:

Super Tuning And Modifying Holley Carburetors (Performance,
Street and Off-Road Applications) by Dave Emanuel

This afternoon started:

Holley Rebuilding And Modifying (A Guide To Holley Modular
Carburetors) by Jeff Williams

Should be able to finish the above book by this weekend.

"I find the reading I've been doing a bit dry (I've been
trying to figure out some of this metallurgy stuff), but
when it sinks in it's like something just *clicks* and
things start to make sense."

Machining has a massive learning curve to it. A lot of
things you can't even read, you just have to do or
experience. It's a very broad and diverse field where no one
knows it all.

"Not sure what area I want to get into. I'd eventually like
to be a tool and die maker or something else that would make
me think."

Are you working in a job shop right now ? Have you in the
past ?

jon

























"chem" wrote in message
...
Our book is the fourth edition. According to our outline we're only
doing Unit 57 in Section 6 - Compound Angles, and then we skip ahead to
the CNC section.

Our class has a big difference in the math level people are coming in
with. Some had general math in high school, and one guy took a couple
of math courses in university. For some of us it's been years since
math class in high school, so it's a bit rusty. Our teacher is cool
about that though - she works at a slow pace with the people who need
it, but if you feel comfortable with the material you can write the test
early and skip the rest of the classes for that section and go work in
the shop or whatever. Our pass is 70%, and the way our grading system
works, I don't think it matters if you get 70% or 100%. At the end of
the year we either pass math or we don't, and it just counts as one of
our skills. No final grade for the year. As far as I know. That's not
stopping me from trying to get the highest mark I can, but it's not such
a big deal if I get a couple of questions wrong. And the tests are
pretty short, so three wrong answers drops the mark quite a bit.

Some of the stuff in the book seems... Well, sometimes I feel like I
did in high school "When am I ever going to use this?" But for most of
it, I can see where I'll be applying it. We're doing algebra now, and
some of the people in class don't see why, but if you flip through
something like the Machinery's Handbook and see all the formulas...
Well, that answers that question.

Automotive reading, huh? Is that something related to work or just
something you're doing for yourself? What book are you reading right
now? I find the reading I've been doing a bit dry (I've been trying to
figure out some of this metallurgy stuff), but when it sinks in it's
like something just *clicks* and things start to make sense.

We did our CAD with AutoCAD LT. When we do CNC later on I think we use
MasterCAM (not sure if I got the name right, but it sounds something
like that).

Not sure what area I want to get into. I'd eventually like to be a tool
and die maker or something else that would make me think. The prospect
of being a button pusher for the rest of my life... Well, let's just
not go there...

chem


jon banquer wrote:

Hi,

"-half a day of math per week - our book is Mathematics for
Machine Technology"

Back in 1993 we used the same text. Ours was the third
edition. We never got to Unit 60 Machining Compound-Angular
Surfaces: Computing Angles Of Rotation and Tilt because many
in the class could not keep up and unfortunatly the
Connecticut adult education system leaves a lot to be
desired and teachs to the lowest level.

IMO this book could be a lot better but it's at least a move
in what I consider to be the right direction. I never do
trig that long way like they have you do it in the book.
Much easier for me to look at one of those charts that you
can find in something like a Carr-Lane book.

Lately I have been doing a ton of automotive reading,
downing a 120 page book about every 2 weeks. When I get done
reading what I want to I might just get motivated to do Unit
60. ;)

"but I've met a few machinists before I started school who
would have been easier to work with if they'd learned a few
of those things and followed them."

LOL. You will meet quite a few more. ;)

BTW, what CAD are they using to teach you ?

AutoCAD ?

Enjoyed your post. Hope you stick it out because IMO you do
have the right attitude to make it as a machinist. Have you
decided yet what area of machining you would like to go into ?

jon












"chem" wrote in message
...

I missed the OP about learning other things instead of just the
practical side of machining... I have to throw in my two cents, FWIW.
I'm taking an 8-9 month machining course. In addition to the practical,
hands-on stuff we also have:
-8 full days of CAD - spread out over a month
-half a day of math per week - our book is Mathematics for Machine
Technology, so we're actually learning things we'll be applying in the

shop

-half a day of communications class per week. This is the one that a
lot of the people in our class have trouble realizing the value of.
We've been covering positive attitudes, teamwork, time management,
presentations, and computer skills (email, word processing, etc. CAD
and CNC programming aren't covered in communications). Not really
anything you need to be a good (or even excellent) machinist, but I've
met a few machinists before I started school who would have been easier
to work with if they'd learned a few of those things and followed them.
(I hope it goes without saying - that's not just limited to
machinists... there are difficult people everywhere)
-We also have a machining textbook that we're supposed to work through
and videos to watch. We spend a couple of hours a week of classroom
time on this, working at our own pace.

CAD, math, and the textbook I've been having no troubles with.
Communications class is driving me nuts. I understand the usefulness of
it all, and I appreciate having the chance to learn the things we're
covering. I'm just feeling a bit down on it because I've got an oral
presentation coming up tomorrow.

Yeah, and I wish we'd had a shop program in high school too. Guess it
wouldn't have mattered much for me anyway because I had no idea what a
machine shop even was until i'd been out of high school for a few years.


chem

jon banquer wrote:


that topic could be covered in another class. Maybe make
it part of the english curriculum.


IMO, this would be the right approach. Those interested in
machining attend a english class that has been tailored to
their curriculum.



Just as the math classes should be oriented to machining.


Again, agreed. Wish I had a choice like this when I was in
high school.

Excellent post... almost makes up for your short sighted
anti-union one.

LOL

:)

jon









"john" wrote in message
...


BottleBob wrote:


Errol Groff wrote:


I am preparing a research assignment for my students on this
subject.

Errol:

The history of Machine tools seems like it would be a

interesting


subject, BUT... If I were in a limited time machine shop class for
the
purpose of increasing my skill level with the hope of becoming an
employable entry level machinist, I think *I'd* (and probably
prospective shop owners might also) be more interested in just HOW to
edge find or indicator sweep my parts rather than knowing WHO
designed
the first edge finder, or indicator, or CNC.
Don't take this wrong, I don't mean to be overly critical
here,

I'm


just giving you a view from a job-shop productivity standpoint. If I
were interviewing two prospective entry level apprentices I'd be more
inclined to hire the one that showed a knowledge of the practical
application of theory over one that had historical knowledge.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob


Errol,

that topic could be covered in another class. Maybe make it part of
the
english curriculum. Just as the math classes should be oriented to
machining. It would make you job easier if you only had to fill
their
brains with the actual machine operations.

John



--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl








--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

"How long have you been enrolled in this machining class ?"

The course started the first week of September, so a little better than
a month and a half.

"Hope your trying to do this as much as possible. The more
hands on you can get with the schools machines, the easier it's
going to be on you when your no longer in school."

Yeah, I'm trying to work ahead. One of the guys in my class offered to
help me out with any of the things I can't figure out just from the
book, but the book seems to be doing a pretty good job of explaining so
far.

"Are you working with both knee mills and lathes right now"

Just working on the mills right now. Sometime after the middle of
November we're switching and I'll be going to the lathes. We'll be
doing CNC after Christmas and our instructors want us to have the basics
of the mills and the lathes before that. I'll be going back to the mill
later on to finish up the rest of the projects. We've got a couple of
projects to do on the horizontal mills too.

"I see aerospace machining as a dead end job in Phoenix, Arizona."

Aerospace is a big thing here. I live in what used to be an old
military base, and quite a few of the businesses out here are aerospace
related. The school I go to has some aerospace programs and it's out
here as well. Labour is cheaper here than in bigger places and the
government had a part in attracting those businesses here as well.
We've got Honeywell here too. Helipro and Atlantic Turbines, owned by
Vector Aerospace. MDS Prad opened up here a while ago - I don't know
much about them, but they do coatings for turbine engines or something.
Wiebel Aerospace used to be out here, but they moved into town a
couple of years ago. A couple of the companies out here seem to be
slowing down, but yesterday we had a tour of the shop by another company
that's considering opening up here. So... Not sure which way things
are headed.

"I would like to broaden my skill base and build high performance
engines and various components that are used on them. Perhaps 5 axis
cylinder head work. I can see going into business for myself in the
future doing high performance engine related work. I would never want to
open my own machining job shop."

I think a couple of the guys in my class are interested in getting into
custom cars and bikes eventually. I'm not even really sure that I'm
planning on doing for sure. There's so many things that I never
realized were related to machining. I couldn't handle the stress of
opening a machine shop, although 20 years from now I'd love to have a
little hobby shop of my own.

"It's a very broad and diverse field where no one knows it all."

I've met some who think they do... ;D

"Are you working in a job shop right now ? Have you in the past ?"

Not now, I stopped working before school started. I worked deburring in
a machine shop that did aerospace work. That's what got me interested
in becoming a machinist. Before I started there I didn't even know what
a machine shop was.

chem



www.xanga.com/chemgurl

Sorry, snipped out any reference to jon banquer, whose post I was
replying to.

chem wrote:
"How long have you been enrolled in this machining class ?"

The course started the first week of September, so a little better than
a month and a half.

"Hope your trying to do this as much as possible. The more
hands on you can get with the schools machines, the easier it's
going to be on you when your no longer in school."

Yeah, I'm trying to work ahead. One of the guys in my class offered to
help me out with any of the things I can't figure out just from the
book, but the book seems to be doing a pretty good job of explaining so
far.

"Are you working with both knee mills and lathes right now"

Just working on the mills right now. Sometime after the middle of
November we're switching and I'll be going to the lathes. We'll be
doing CNC after Christmas and our instructors want us to have the basics
of the mills and the lathes before that. I'll be going back to the mill
later on to finish up the rest of the projects. We've got a couple of
projects to do on the horizontal mills too.

"I see aerospace machining as a dead end job in Phoenix, Arizona."

Aerospace is a big thing here. I live in what used to be an old
military base, and quite a few of the businesses out here are aerospace
related. The school I go to has some aerospace programs and it's out
here as well. Labour is cheaper here than in bigger places and the
government had a part in attracting those businesses here as well. We've
got Honeywell here too. Helipro and Atlantic Turbines, owned by Vector
Aerospace. MDS Prad opened up here a while ago - I don't know much
about them, but they do coatings for turbine engines or something.
Wiebel Aerospace used to be out here, but they moved into town a couple
of years ago. A couple of the companies out here seem to be slowing
down, but yesterday we had a tour of the shop by another company that's
considering opening up here. So... Not sure which way things are headed.

"I would like to broaden my skill base and build high performance
engines and various components that are used on them. Perhaps 5 axis
cylinder head work. I can see going into business for myself in the
future doing high performance engine related work. I would never want to
open my own machining job shop."

I think a couple of the guys in my class are interested in getting into
custom cars and bikes eventually. I'm not even really sure that I'm
planning on doing for sure. There's so many things that I never
realized were related to machining. I couldn't handle the stress of
opening a machine shop, although 20 years from now I'd love to have a
little hobby shop of my own.

"It's a very broad and diverse field where no one knows it all."

I've met some who think they do... ;D

"Are you working in a job shop right now ? Have you in the past ?"

Not now, I stopped working before school started. I worked deburring in
a machine shop that did aerospace work. That's what got me interested
in becoming a machinist. Before I started there I didn't even know what
a machine shop was.

chem



www.xanga.com/chemgurl


--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

"but the book seems to be doing a pretty good job of
explaining so far."

What is the machining text book your using ? Just a guess but
would it be:

Machining Fundamentals by John R Walker ?

"Just working on the mills right now."

Have they shown you how to tram the head in yet ? What have
you made so far ? Might be able to give you some ideas of
things that I think are important to know and be able
to do quickly with a knee mill.

"We've got a couple of projects to do on the horizontal
mills too."

Can really save time over a knee mill for roughing material.
Some job shops still keep them around even if they have CNC's.

"Aerospace is a big thing here."

If you think your going to go to work for an Aerospace job shop
I can tailor some of my comments toward that.

"We've got Honeywell here too."

Honeywell big business in Phoenix is making Axillary Power
Units (APU's). An APU is a turbine that provides electricity
and takes care of things like the air conditioning, etc. From what
I'm told the APU also is the starter for a planes propulsion
turbines. Honeywell's growth was suppose to be in providing
a new propulsion turbine called an AS900 to Bombardier . For
whatever reasons this has not taken off yet.

"I think a couple of the guys in my class are interested in
getting into custom cars and bikes eventually."

A few of my friends who I have worked with and who are
burned out from working in aerospace job shops here have
gone to work for Bourgett Bike Works. It's easy work. All
aluminum. They are very nice to their employees.

http://www.bourgets.com/

"I've met some who think they do... ;D"

Unfortunately, you will meet plenty more.

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

I suddenly feel old. Very, very old. At least I've heard of
The Beastie Boys and err... actually like them. ;) As far
as the hangover part on your website, looks like your gonna
fit right in. LOL

jon

"I prefer to listen to Cheap Trick." Homer Simpson








"chem" wrote in message
...
"How long have you been enrolled in this machining class ?"

The course started the first week of September, so a little better than
a month and a half.

"Hope your trying to do this as much as possible. The more
hands on you can get with the schools machines, the easier it's
going to be on you when your no longer in school."

Yeah, I'm trying to work ahead. One of the guys in my class offered to
help me out with any of the things I can't figure out just from the
book, but the book seems to be doing a pretty good job of explaining so
far.

"Are you working with both knee mills and lathes right now"

Just working on the mills right now. Sometime after the middle of
November we're switching and I'll be going to the lathes. We'll be
doing CNC after Christmas and our instructors want us to have the basics
of the mills and the lathes before that. I'll be going back to the mill
later on to finish up the rest of the projects. We've got a couple of
projects to do on the horizontal mills too.

"I see aerospace machining as a dead end job in Phoenix, Arizona."

Aerospace is a big thing here. I live in what used to be an old
military base, and quite a few of the businesses out here are aerospace
related. The school I go to has some aerospace programs and it's out
here as well. Labour is cheaper here than in bigger places and the
government had a part in attracting those businesses here as well.
We've got Honeywell here too. Helipro and Atlantic Turbines, owned by
Vector Aerospace. MDS Prad opened up here a while ago - I don't know
much about them, but they do coatings for turbine engines or something.
Wiebel Aerospace used to be out here, but they moved into town a
couple of years ago. A couple of the companies out here seem to be
slowing down, but yesterday we had a tour of the shop by another company
that's considering opening up here. So... Not sure which way things
are headed.

"I would like to broaden my skill base and build high performance
engines and various components that are used on them. Perhaps 5 axis
cylinder head work. I can see going into business for myself in the
future doing high performance engine related work. I would never want to
open my own machining job shop."

I think a couple of the guys in my class are interested in getting into
custom cars and bikes eventually. I'm not even really sure that I'm
planning on doing for sure. There's so many things that I never
realized were related to machining. I couldn't handle the stress of
opening a machine shop, although 20 years from now I'd love to have a
little hobby shop of my own.

"It's a very broad and diverse field where no one knows it all."

I've met some who think they do... ;D

"Are you working in a job shop right now ? Have you in the past ?"

Not now, I stopped working before school started. I worked deburring in
a machine shop that did aerospace work. That's what got me interested
in becoming a machinist. Before I started there I didn't even know what
a machine shop was.

chem



www.xanga.com/chemgurl

jon banquer wrote:

What is the machining text book your using ? Just a guess but
would it be:

Machining Fundamentals by John R Walker ?
Machine Tool and Manufacturing Technology by Steve F. Krar, Mario
Rapisarda, and Albert F. Check, published by Delmar.

Have they shown you how to tram the head in yet ? What have
you made so far ? Might be able to give you some ideas of
things that I think are important to know and be able
to do quickly with a knee mill.
Tramming the head was the first thing we had to do. The instructors ran
through it with us, then knocked it back out again and had us tram it on
our own. I haven't made anything really exciting yet (I guess that's a
lie - milling a piece square was plenty exciting to me). There's some
pics at
http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=...s&uid=38125393
and I took home another project today that I'll post some pics of
tonight or tomorrow. It's half of a boring head. I'll be doing the
other half of it on the lathe. Pretty neat little thing. It has
dovetails, drilled, reamed and tapped holes (I did the tapping by hand
though, not on the mill) and a gib. Today I started work on an aluminum
church for my parents for Christmas. It's a project I came across in
HSM, and I'm pretty excited about it. Friday is our day to do our own
personal projects in the shop if we want.

Any little ideas that you have would be appreciated. There's only two
instructors for 14 students, so they don't have a whole lot of time to
spend with us to give us tips for doing things a better way and/or more
quickly (although I've been suprised how much personal attention they're
able to give us). And any ideas for handy tools I could make would be
appreciated too. Our projects include a square, the boring head, a
brass hammer, a set of v-blocks... And a few other things which escape
me at the moment. Our first project was a holder for our dial indicator
for tramming the head of the mill. My other personal project on the
mill is a set of swivel blocks to use in a vice.

Can really save time over a knee mill for roughing material.
Some job shops still keep them around even if they have CNC's.
Today might have been a candidate for the horizontal mill. The main
part of that church I mentioned above will have finished dimensions of
3" x 3.250" x 4.250" at its widest, tallest, and longest points (the
steeple is made seperately and attached with a couple of pins). The
biggest aluminum bar stock we have in the shop is 3" x 3". So... We
started with a 6" round bar. Sawed off 4.5" because sometimes the saw
makes crooked cuts, so we had to allow for that. That was ok though,
because I got to use the lathe to face off the ends (with the
instructor's help to set up). With the extra 250 thou of material, that
took until lunch. After lunch we laid out a 4.25" square on one face of
the piece and stuck it in the mill. Taking 100 thou cuts, it took me a
couple of hours to take down one side of the bar to a 4.25" flat. By
Christmas I should have a nice square paperweight for my folks! (j/k
- confident I'll be done of it by then. I've still got 6 Fridays of
school before Christmas)

If you think your going to go to work for an Aerospace job shop
I can tailor some of my comments toward that.
Not sure what I'm doing when I get out of school. Because of where I
live though, chances are good that it will be aerospace. I think
because of where our school is located, the course is geared towards
graduating students who can comfortably go into aerospace.

Honeywell big business in Phoenix is making Axillary Power
Units (APU's).
Honeywell does fuel systems here.

http://www.bourgets.com/
Bikes aren't my thing, but - wow...

I suddenly feel old. Very, very old. At least I've heard of
The Beastie Boys and err... actually like them. ;) As far
as the hangover part on your website, looks like your gonna
fit right in. LOL
Lol, if you like the Beastie Boys you can't be that old - not in spirit
anyways. I don't make a habit of drinking, and that hangover was
enough to turn me off it for quite a while. :P

chem



www.xanga.com/chemgurl

"Machine Tool and Manufacturing Technology by Steve F. Krar,
Mario Rapisarda, and Albert F. Check, published by Delmar."

Okay. Very similar book to the one I mentioned. This helps
to give me a good idea what they are teaching you and I
can tailor my comments to that.

"Tramming the head was the first thing we had to do. The
instructors ran through it with us, then knocked it back out
again and had us tram it on our own."

IMO, I think it is very important to be able to check and
tram the head *very quickly* in a small machining job shop.
Very often you will have to share machines or use someone
else's machine. The fact is that most knee mills use what I
call a knuckle in their design. While this knuckle provides
lots of versatility it is also a very weak point as far as
the rigidity of a knee mill is concerned. It's extremely
easy to knock the head out of tram with the table !

Also, very often on older knee mills if you move the knee up
or down, the head will not be in alignment with the table
at the new position you cranked the knee to ! If your doing
a critical part you really will want to use the spindle
travel rather than move the knee. If you must move the knee,
depending on what operation your doing, it's very often a
good idea to check if the head is still in alinement with
the table.

Have they shown you how to set an angle or a compound angle
by tilting the head of a knee mill yet ?

How about moving the Ram in and out ?

Will they be showing you how to use a rotary table ?

"It's half of a boring head. I'll be doing the other half
of it on the lathe. Pretty neat little thing. It has
dovetails, drilled, reamed and tapped holes (I did the
tapping by hand though, not on the mill) and a gib."

What is the TPI on the lead screw that moves your boring
head in and out?

"Any little ideas that you have would be appreciated."

I have a ton of them and they are based on what I did not
know when I was taking machine / tool adult education in
1993 / 1994 and now know based on 10 years in what I like to
call the real world of working in small U.S. machining job
shops. What I don't want to do is overwhelm you by throwing
too much stuff at you too soon. I also think it's a good idea if I
keep my comments to manual machining rather than CNC
machining at this point. Of course, if you feel you have a
specific question on CNC I would be more than happy to try
an answer it.

Does this approach seem like a good idea to you ?

"And any ideas for handy tools I could make would be
appreciated too."

A lot of the things that you can make in school can save you
money and are really needed and very frequently used when
you go to work in a job shop. 1-2-3 blocks, (I have 4 pairs)
2-4-6 blocks, (I have 2 pairs) jack screws ( I have 3 of
them), angle blocks, height stand (Not the design they have
you make in school !), the V blocks you mentioned (various
sizes), vise work stops, parallels, etc. The more time you
can spend at the machine making stuff like this the better,
IMO.

Now that you have found alt.machines.cnc (which IMO will
benefit you even more than rec.crafts.metalworking because
most of us here machine for a living and you will be doing
it for a living all too soon) you have read what some others
have said about horizontal milling.

When I typed what I typed about horizontal milling my
thoughts were and still are on helping you to understand
what a knee mill with a knuckle head joint is very, very
weak at as well as what it is good at. A manual horizontal
mill is much more rigid in it's design than a knee mill with
a knuckle head joint. As a result of this *alone* it can
"hog off" more material. As has been mentioned by others
horizontal milling has other advantages, which at this
point unless you want to, I don't feel is appropriate to go
into. Further, some of the many advantages of horizontal
milling have still not been mentioned, yet.

My comments to you are and will be based on augmenting what
you doing in class right now. My comments are designed to
help you get the most out of your class and how to apply it
to what I have labeled above as the real world. IMO, this
will benefit you the most. Others, as well as yourself, may
disagree. :) LOL

"Bikes aren't my thing, but - wow... "

Glad you liked it. Keep this in mind. Aerospace machining
work is one of the best and most complete backgrounds one
can have for doing many other types of work. After aerospace
machining a lot of things can be downright easy to handle.
Certainly, making aluminum Harley type chopper parts is one
of them. Frankly, I would be bored out of my mind very, very
quickly making aluminum parts for Roger's bikes. ;)

"I don't make a habit of drinking, and that hangover was
enough to turn me off it for quite a while. :P"

I never have this problem drinking a quality single malt
scotch and making sure I don't mix drinks. It is quite an
expensive way to go though if you favor a Scotch such as
Glenfiddich like I do.

I have a lot of other questions that I would like to ask you
about your very creative website but I will wait awhile and
see if you find what I have typed helpful.

Hope your enjoying your weekend,

jon




















"chem" wrote in message
...


jon banquer wrote:

What is the machining text book your using ? Just a guess but
would it be:

Machining Fundamentals by John R Walker ?
Machine Tool and Manufacturing Technology by Steve F. Krar, Mario
Rapisarda, and Albert F. Check, published by Delmar.

Have they shown you how to tram the head in yet ? What have
you made so far ? Might be able to give you some ideas of
things that I think are important to know and be able
to do quickly with a knee mill.
Tramming the head was the first thing we had to do. The instructors ran
through it with us, then knocked it back out again and had us tram it on
our own. I haven't made anything really exciting yet (I guess that's a
lie - milling a piece square was plenty exciting to me). There's some
pics at
http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=...s&uid=38125393
and I took home another project today that I'll post some pics of
tonight or tomorrow. It's half of a boring head. I'll be doing the
other half of it on the lathe. Pretty neat little thing. It has
dovetails, drilled, reamed and tapped holes (I did the tapping by hand
though, not on the mill) and a gib. Today I started work on an aluminum
church for my parents for Christmas. It's a project I came across in
HSM, and I'm pretty excited about it. Friday is our day to do our own
personal projects in the shop if we want.

Any little ideas that you have would be appreciated. There's only two
instructors for 14 students, so they don't have a whole lot of time to
spend with us to give us tips for doing things a better way and/or more
quickly (although I've been suprised how much personal attention they're
able to give us). And any ideas for handy tools I could make would be
appreciated too. Our projects include a square, the boring head, a
brass hammer, a set of v-blocks... And a few other things which escape
me at the moment. Our first project was a holder for our dial indicator
for tramming the head of the mill. My other personal project on the
mill is a set of swivel blocks to use in a vice.

Can really save time over a knee mill for roughing material.
Some job shops still keep them around even if they have CNC's.
Today might have been a candidate for the horizontal mill. The main
part of that church I mentioned above will have finished dimensions of
3" x 3.250" x 4.250" at its widest, tallest, and longest points (the
steeple is made seperately and attached with a couple of pins). The
biggest aluminum bar stock we have in the shop is 3" x 3". So... We
started with a 6" round bar. Sawed off 4.5" because sometimes the saw
makes crooked cuts, so we had to allow for that. That was ok though,
because I got to use the lathe to face off the ends (with the
instructor's help to set up). With the extra 250 thou of material, that
took until lunch. After lunch we laid out a 4.25" square on one face of
the piece and stuck it in the mill. Taking 100 thou cuts, it took me a
couple of hours to take down one side of the bar to a 4.25" flat. By
Christmas I should have a nice square paperweight for my folks! (j/k
- confident I'll be done of it by then. I've still got 6 Fridays of
school before Christmas)

If you think your going to go to work for an Aerospace job shop
I can tailor some of my comments toward that.
Not sure what I'm doing when I get out of school. Because of where I
live though, chances are good that it will be aerospace. I think
because of where our school is located, the course is geared towards
graduating students who can comfortably go into aerospace.

Honeywell big business in Phoenix is making Axillary Power
Units (APU's).
Honeywell does fuel systems here.

http://www.bourgets.com/
Bikes aren't my thing, but - wow...

I suddenly feel old. Very, very old. At least I've heard of
The Beastie Boys and err... actually like them. ;) As far
as the hangover part on your website, looks like your gonna
fit right in. LOL
Lol, if you like the Beastie Boys you can't be that old - not in spirit
anyways. I don't make a habit of drinking, and that hangover was
enough to turn me off it for quite a while. :P

chem



www.xanga.com/chemgurl

jon banquer wrote:

IMO, I think it is very important to be able to check and
tram the head *very quickly* in a small machining job shop.

That's something I can't do very quickly. But it's something I could
practice as much as I like because when I'm in the shop I'm pretty much
always in front of my mill.


Also, very often on older knee mills if you move the knee up
or down, the head will not be in alignment with the table
at the new position you cranked the knee to ! If your doing
a critical part you really will want to use the spindle
travel rather than move the knee. If you must move the knee,
depending on what operation your doing, it's very often a
good idea to check if the head is still in alinement with
the table.

We've been told that unless we're just drilling or reaming we should
move the knee instead of using the quill because of rigidity issues with
the quill. I move the quill when I'm finding the edges of my workpiece,
but other than that I've only used it a couple of times.


Have they shown you how to set an angle or a compound angle
by tilting the head of a knee mill yet ?

Not yet. I'm not even sure if we'll be covering that. I've seen it in
a few videos I've watched, but haven't done it myself.


How about moving the Ram in and out ?

I've moved the ram out, and swiveled the head of the mill over to the
right to reach the end of a workpiece.


Will they be showing you how to use a rotary table ?

My next couple of projects use a rotary table (more on that below).


What is the TPI on the lead screw that moves your boring
head in and out?

If I understand your question, there's no lead screw on it. It's just a
couple of set screws that you loosen to slide the middle section out.
There's a pic of it up on my page now so you can see what I mean. You
may be talking about something that will be on the other half of it, but
I don't really know much about that yet.


I also think it's a good idea if I
keep my comments to manual machining rather than CNC
machining at this point. Of course, if you feel you have a
specific question on CNC I would be more than happy to try
an answer it.

We won't be doing CNC until after Christmas, but I'm sure I'll have
questions about it then.


Does this approach seem like a good idea to you ?

Hey, cool with me. Thanks for showing so much interest!


A lot of the things that you can make in school can save you
money and are really needed and very frequently used when
you go to work in a job shop. 1-2-3 blocks, (I have 4 pairs)
2-4-6 blocks, (I have 2 pairs) jack screws ( I have 3 of
them), angle blocks, height stand (Not the design they have
you make in school !), the V blocks you mentioned (various
sizes), vise work stops, parallels, etc. The more time you
can spend at the machine making stuff like this the better,
IMO.

Yeah, money's pretty tight right now with school and all, so I'm all for
making a few things.

Jack screws = machinist's jack? I've seen a couple of simple little
plans for them.

1-2-3 and 2-4-6 blocks - I'll have to see how much time I can get on the
grinder before I plan on making them. It shouldn't be a problem though
- the grinder doesn't seem to be getting a whole lot of use so far.

Angle blocks - well, I don't even know what they're for. Do you use
them like parallels, but for cutting on an angle? Or are they used for
layout? Or both?

Height stand - They don't have us make one in school anyway, but I'm
curious about this one. How complicated is it to make? Do you use a
dial indicator with it?

I've already asked the instructor about making my own parallels - not a
problem.

If you have plans for a work stop I'd like to see them.


When I typed what I typed about horizontal milling my
thoughts were and still are on helping you to understand
what a knee mill with a knuckle head joint is very, very
weak at as well as what it is good at. A manual horizontal
mill is much more rigid in it's design than a knee mill with
a knuckle head joint. As a result of this *alone* it can
"hog off" more material. As has been mentioned by others
horizontal milling has other advantages, which at this
point unless you want to, I don't feel is appropriate to go
into. Further, some of the many advantages of horizontal
milling have still not been mentioned, yet.

Most of the stuff about the horizontal mill... Well, I could understand
most of the terminology, but I couldn't catch it all. From what I
understand though, horizontal mills aren't all that common anymore
anyway. Am I right? We have a few skills we have to get on them
anyway. I can see how other people wanted to jump in on that one
because, hey, when I know about something I like to talk about it too.


My comments to you are and will be based on augmenting what
you doing in class right now. My comments are designed to
help you get the most out of your class and how to apply it
to what I have labeled above as the real world. IMO, this
will benefit you the most. Others, as well as yourself, may
disagree. :) LOL

Well... This week in class I'll be working with the rotary table. I'll
be starting with a 6" round piece of aluminum, 1" thick. On one side I
have to make 6 flats around the outside, and on the other 8 flats, with
a 1/8" thickness of the original 6" dimension between the two. On both
sides I'll have to drill equally spaces holes. Am I making sense here?


I never have this problem drinking a quality single malt
scotch and making sure I don't mix drinks. It is quite an
expensive way to go though if you favor a Scotch such as
Glenfiddich like I do.

Lol, I'm not picky about what I drink. Not that I drink $5/gallon wine,
but rum and coke or Keiths (beer, not sure if it's sold outside of
Canada) is fine by me. But like I said, I leave enough time between
that I forget about the hangover by the next time around.


I have a lot of other questions that I would like to ask you
about your very creative website but I will wait awhile and
see if you find what I have typed helpful.

If you've got questions about the page, go ahead. It's pretty much just
a template that I plugged my own colors and a couple of pictures into
though.

Thanks again for wanting to help out.

chem


--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

chem wrote:

jon banquer wrote:





A lot of the things that you can make in school can save you
money and are really needed and very frequently used when
you go to work in a job shop. 1-2-3 blocks, (I have 4 pairs)
2-4-6 blocks, (I have 2 pairs) jack screws ( I have 3 of
them), angle blocks, height stand (Not the design they have
you make in school !), the V blocks you mentioned (various
sizes), vise work stops, parallels, etc. The more time you
can spend at the machine making stuff like this the better,
IMO.

Yeah, money's pretty tight right now with school and all, so I'm all for
making a few things.

Jack screws = machinist's jack? I've seen a couple of simple little
plans for them.

1-2-3 and 2-4-6 blocks - I'll have to see how much time I can get on the
grinder before I plan on making them. It shouldn't be a problem though
- the grinder doesn't seem to be getting a whole lot of use so far.

Angle blocks - well, I don't even know what they're for. Do you use
them like parallels, but for cutting on an angle? Or are they used for
layout? Or both?

Height stand - They don't have us make one in school anyway, but I'm
curious about this one. How complicated is it to make? Do you use a
dial indicator with it?

I've already asked the instructor about making my own parallels - not a
problem.



chem



Just a thought or two. When you make your parallels make at least 4 of each
matched size. I have 3 matched sets and could have used a fourth set at times.

Make the angle blocks, very handy for inspection, layout, and part setup.
Anything you can make now, do it. Good experience and it'll cost more to buy
or make later.

michael

What size parallels do you suggest? I was just going to measure the
ones we have around the shop and make a few sets of the same sizes.

chem

michael wrote:

Just a thought or two. When you make your parallels make at least 4
of each
matched size. I have 3 matched sets and could have used a fourth set at times.

Make the angle blocks, very handy for inspection, layout, and part setup.
Anything you can make now, do it. Good experience and it'll cost more to buy
or make later.

michael




--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

"That's something I can't do very quickly. But it's
something I could practice as much as I like because when
I'm in the shop I'm pretty much always in front of my mill."

How about:

Ask someone who you think has talent and works with manual
machines for a living in a job shop if they think it's
important.

Ask others in this newsgroup what their opinion is.
Consider the opinions of those you decide know what
their doing.

Ask someone by e-mail that you respect if they agree
with my opinion.

"We've been told that unless we're just drilling or reaming
we should move the knee instead of using the quill because
of rigidity issues with the quill."

When roughing with an endmill you want to do everything
possible to get as much rigidity as possible. I do not agree
that when drilling or reaming you should be concerned about
how much of the quill is exposed. IMO, the quill is much
more accurate, in Z travel compared to raising and lowering
the knee. Consider the following. :)

Ask someone who you think has talent and works with manual
machines for a living in a job shop if they think it's
important.

Ask others in this newsgroup what their opinion is.
Consider the opinions of those you decide know what
their doing.

Ask someone by e-mail that you respect if they agree
with my opinion.

:)

"Not yet. I'm not even sure if we'll be covering that.
I've seen it in a few videos I've watched, but haven't done
it myself."

IMO, also very important to be able to do quickly. If you
wish I can provide an aerospace example of why it is
important and why a manual knee mill is often used to do
this kind of work in many CNC machine shops.

"If I understand your question, there's no lead screw on it.
It's just a couple of set screws that you loosen to slide
the middle section out."

If you get a chance try and look at any commercial boring
head so you can see how it is designed so that it can move
short distances accurately. Does your school have something
like a Bridgeport or a Criterion boring head that you can
examine so that you can see how they have been designed to
accomplish this task ?

"We won't be doing CNC until after Christmas, but I'm sure
I'll have questions about it then."

Perhaps before... depends on you and how much you can or
want to absorb. :)

"Hey, cool with me. Thanks for showing so much interest!"

IMO you will find others, like I have, that will give you
"the shirt off their back" when it comes to sharing their
knowledge. After you have found others like this you may
notice, like I have, that they all fit a pattern that others
don't.

"Yeah, money's pretty tight right now with school and all,
so I'm all for making a few things."

If you don't you will either have to buy them or spend your
time hunting for the shop tools / asking to use someone
else's. I never felt I had the time to do this as I wanted
to use my time on other things. I also like knowing what my
tools can do rather than being surprised by a tool that I
don't know. All depends on what your comfortable with and
willing to accept or not accept.

"Angle blocks - well, I don't even know what they're for"

Here are just a few possible uses:

Instead of "throwing" the head on a knee mill, use an angle
block.

It's can be very hard to "throw" the head on a surface
grinder. ;)

"Height stand - They don't have us make one in school
anyway, but I'm curious about this one. How complicated is
it to make? Do you use a dial indicator with it?"

Not very complicated. It's all in the design and most
designs suck because they don't have a precise enough
adjustment to *easily* allow you to move in tenths. The
concept of how to do this is similar to controlling movement
of a boring head. The most complex thing you would need is a
piece of spring steel. Yes, you use a dial indicator with
it.

"I've already asked the instructor about making my own
parallels - not a problem."

Think about making some large ones. They can be very, very
handy.

"If you have plans for a work stop I'd like to see them."

All you need to do is look at a few in tool catalogs or see
them in person. Then just copy them or design them to how
you prefer they should be made. :)

"Most of the stuff about the horizontal mill... Well, I
could understand most of the terminology, but I couldn't
catch it all."

Ask them directly in the newsgroup or find someone you can
e-mail that you suspect / knows what they are doing and is
good at explaining their thoughts.

"From what I understand though, horizontal mills aren't all
that common anymore anyway. Am I right?"

IMO manual horizontal mills are not that popular but often
still have their place. CNC horizontals are *very* popular
for damn good reason. :)

Besides what has already been mentioned in this thread,
why ? LOL :)

"We have a few skills we have to get on them anyway. I can
see how other people wanted to jump in on that one because,
hey, when I know about something I like to talk about it
too. "

Then do it !!!

Just a few of my observations over I think 5 or 6 years of
posting he

You might want to make sure before you do that your prepared
to take the heat and / or watch the bad vibes go down as the
fighting starts. At times the bad vibes will carry from
thread to thread and the level of hate will know no limits.

"Well... This week in class I'll be working with the rotary
table. I'll be starting with a 6" round piece of aluminum,
1" thick. On one side I have to make 6 flats around the
outside, and on the other 8 flats, with a 1/8" thickness of
the original 6" dimension between the two. On both sides
I'll have to drill equally spaces holes. Am I making sense
here?"

You doing what I would call indexing with a rotary table. I
have a lot of stuff I would like to convey to you about
rotary tables. As you start to use them, and if your still
interested, I will have more to say. :)

"Thanks again for wanting to help out."

Thanks for appreciating the effort :) Along the way I'm sure I
will learn plenty from / about you as well.

jon












































































"chem" wrote in message
...
jon banquer wrote:

IMO, I think it is very important to be able to check and
tram the head *very quickly* in a small machining job shop.

That's something I can't do very quickly. But it's something I could
practice as much as I like because when I'm in the shop I'm pretty much
always in front of my mill.


Also, very often on older knee mills if you move the knee up
or down, the head will not be in alignment with the table
at the new position you cranked the knee to ! If your doing
a critical part you really will want to use the spindle
travel rather than move the knee. If you must move the knee,
depending on what operation your doing, it's very often a
good idea to check if the head is still in alinement with
the table.

We've been told that unless we're just drilling or reaming we should
move the knee instead of using the quill because of rigidity issues with
the quill. I move the quill when I'm finding the edges of my workpiece,
but other than that I've only used it a couple of times.


Have they shown you how to set an angle or a compound angle
by tilting the head of a knee mill yet ?

Not yet. I'm not even sure if we'll be covering that. I've seen it in
a few videos I've watched, but haven't done it myself.


How about moving the Ram in and out ?

I've moved the ram out, and swiveled the head of the mill over to the
right to reach the end of a workpiece.


Will they be showing you how to use a rotary table ?

My next couple of projects use a rotary table (more on that below).


What is the TPI on the lead screw that moves your boring
head in and out?

If I understand your question, there's no lead screw on it. It's just a
couple of set screws that you loosen to slide the middle section out.
There's a pic of it up on my page now so you can see what I mean. You
may be talking about something that will be on the other half of it, but
I don't really know much about that yet.


I also think it's a good idea if I
keep my comments to manual machining rather than CNC
machining at this point. Of course, if you feel you have a
specific question on CNC I would be more than happy to try
an answer it.

We won't be doing CNC until after Christmas, but I'm sure I'll have
questions about it then.


Does this approach seem like a good idea to you ?

Hey, cool with me. Thanks for showing so much interest!


A lot of the things that you can make in school can save you
money and are really needed and very frequently used when
you go to work in a job shop. 1-2-3 blocks, (I have 4 pairs)
2-4-6 blocks, (I have 2 pairs) jack screws ( I have 3 of
them), angle blocks, height stand (Not the design they have
you make in school !), the V blocks you mentioned (various
sizes), vise work stops, parallels, etc. The more time you
can spend at the machine making stuff like this the better,
IMO.

Yeah, money's pretty tight right now with school and all, so I'm all for
making a few things.

Jack screws = machinist's jack? I've seen a couple of simple little
plans for them.

1-2-3 and 2-4-6 blocks - I'll have to see how much time I can get on the
grinder before I plan on making them. It shouldn't be a problem though
- the grinder doesn't seem to be getting a whole lot of use so far.

Angle blocks - well, I don't even know what they're for. Do you use
them like parallels, but for cutting on an angle? Or are they used for
layout? Or both?

Height stand - They don't have us make one in school anyway, but I'm
curious about this one. How complicated is it to make? Do you use a
dial indicator with it?

I've already asked the instructor about making my own parallels - not a
problem.

If you have plans for a work stop I'd like to see them.


When I typed what I typed about horizontal milling my
thoughts were and still are on helping you to understand
what a knee mill with a knuckle head joint is very, very
weak at as well as what it is good at. A manual horizontal
mill is much more rigid in it's design than a knee mill with
a knuckle head joint. As a result of this *alone* it can
"hog off" more material. As has been mentioned by others
horizontal milling has other advantages, which at this
point unless you want to, I don't feel is appropriate to go
into. Further, some of the many advantages of horizontal
milling have still not been mentioned, yet.

Most of the stuff about the horizontal mill... Well, I could understand
most of the terminology, but I couldn't catch it all. From what I
understand though, horizontal mills aren't all that common anymore
anyway. Am I right? We have a few skills we have to get on them
anyway. I can see how other people wanted to jump in on that one
because, hey, when I know about something I like to talk about it too.


My comments to you are and will be based on augmenting what
you doing in class right now. My comments are designed to
help you get the most out of your class and how to apply it
to what I have labeled above as the real world. IMO, this
will benefit you the most. Others, as well as yourself, may
disagree. :) LOL

Well... This week in class I'll be working with the rotary table. I'll
be starting with a 6" round piece of aluminum, 1" thick. On one side I
have to make 6 flats around the outside, and on the other 8 flats, with
a 1/8" thickness of the original 6" dimension between the two. On both
sides I'll have to drill equally spaces holes. Am I making sense here?


I never have this problem drinking a quality single malt
scotch and making sure I don't mix drinks. It is quite an
expensive way to go though if you favor a Scotch such as
Glenfiddich like I do.

Lol, I'm not picky about what I drink. Not that I drink $5/gallon wine,
but rum and coke or Keiths (beer, not sure if it's sold outside of
Canada) is fine by me. But like I said, I leave enough time between
that I forget about the hangover by the next time around.


I have a lot of other questions that I would like to ask you
about your very creative website but I will wait awhile and
see if you find what I have typed helpful.

If you've got questions about the page, go ahead. It's pretty much just
a template that I plugged my own colors and a couple of pictures into
though.

Thanks again for wanting to help out.

chem


--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

chem wrote:

What size parallels do you suggest? I was just going to measure the
ones we have around the shop and make a few sets of the same sizes.

chem


It's one of those things where it's tough to have too many. Commonly available are
sets from 1/2" thru 1-5/8" in 1/8" increments. I have 3 sets like that which were
purchased at a very good price and then match ground. Out of the box they vary too
much. I have others that were made or acquired along with other tools, some are
I-beam style that give a wide surface, and they look cool. Also some made from
square tubing. I tend to keep several 1/8" thick by 6" aluminum blanks handy for the
odd size needed when the "standard" ones don't do the job. You might consider
cutting a step along one edge of your parallels so that during use the step is
placed against the jaws. That eliminates the sharp corner that catches chips easily
and leaves some space for a sharp or slightly burred part edge. If you harden your
parallels, don't make them too hard, you *will* drill into them sooner or later. Or
someone else will.

michael

Industry determines what we're taught, because they know what skills
they want us to have when we're ready to join the workforce (or re-enter
the workforce). Well, my instructors were both machining for a living
for a long time before they started teaching this course, so they have a
pretty good idea of what's useful for us I guess.

jon banquer wrote:


IMO, also very important to be able to do quickly. If you
wish I can provide an aerospace example of why it is
important and why a manual knee mill is often used to do
this kind of work in many CNC machine shops.

Sure, hit me with the example


If you get a chance try and look at any commercial boring
head so you can see how it is designed so that it can move
short distances accurately. Does your school have something
like a Bridgeport or a Criterion boring head that you can
examine so that you can see how they have been designed to
accomplish this task ?

We have a few commercial boring heads around the shop, and I've seen how
they work. I think the point of making ours was just to get a few of
our skills checked off, and to have a little tool we could use if we
want/need to.


Perhaps before... depends on you and how much you can or
want to absorb. :)

I have enough to absorb right now, with working ahead in math and
reading about metallurgy. Soon I'll be starting the lathe section in
the textbook, and there's a lot of questions to work on with that. Then
I've got a couple more presentations coming up in communications class. :P


IMO you will find others, like I have, that will give you
"the shirt off their back" when it comes to sharing their
knowledge. After you have found others like this you may
notice, like I have, that they all fit a pattern that others
don't.

I've met a couple of machinists that would take the time to explain
things to me about machining even when I was just deburring. I hope I
get to work with more like them.

If you don't you will either have to buy them or spend your
time hunting for the shop tools / asking to use someone
else's. I never felt I had the time to do this as I wanted
to use my time on other things. I also like knowing what my
tools can do rather than being surprised by a tool that I
don't know. All depends on what your comfortable with and
willing to accept or not accept.

I don't much enjoy having to ask someone else if I can use their tools,
and wasting time digging through the shop to find something - argh. But
I have absolutely no problem letting someone else use one of my tools
as long as it finds its way back to my tool box when they're done with
it.


Not very complicated. It's all in the design and most
designs suck because they don't have a precise enough
adjustment to *easily* allow you to move in tenths. The
concept of how to do this is similar to controlling movement
of a boring head. The most complex thing you would need is a
piece of spring steel. Yes, you use a dial indicator with
it.

Cool, I'll look into making one of these. It would be handy to have.



"Most of the stuff about the horizontal mill... Well, I
could understand most of the terminology, but I couldn't
catch it all."

Ask them directly in the newsgroup or find someone you can
e-mail that you suspect / knows what they are doing and is
good at explaining their thoughts.

When I get on the horizontal mill I'll worry about learning more about
it. I've got enough on my plate right now.


Just a few of my observations over I think 5 or 6 years of
posting he

You might want to make sure before you do that your prepared
to take the heat and / or watch the bad vibes go down as the
fighting starts. At times the bad vibes will carry from
thread to thread and the level of hate will know no limits.

Lol, just like real life, then. Not everyone gets along. I guess it's
just an unfortunate fact of life. You can learn something from everyone
if you keep your ears (err, eyes in this case) open. You just have to
learn to ignore the crap.


You doing what I would call indexing with a rotary table. I
have a lot of stuff I would like to convey to you about
rotary tables. As you start to use them, and if your still
interested, I will have more to say. :)

Well, I guess I'll be starting with that today. I'll let you know how
it goes, and when I get the bare basics down you can pass on some of
your stuff to me.

chem

--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

Ahh, cool idea about the step - I hadn't thought of that. But "slightly
burred part edge"? Naw, I used to be a deburrer... My parts don't have
burred edges! (Yes, I realize that it only takes a tiny burr to throw
off a measurement, and I know that when I get out into the real world
I'm not going to have time to deburr all of my parts before I put them
in the vice. I'm just being a smartass) And yeah, I've seen some
parallels around the shop with holes drilled through them :P

chem

michael wrote:

chem wrote:


What size parallels do you suggest? I was just going to measure the
ones we have around the shop and make a few sets of the same sizes.

chem



It's one of those things where it's tough to have too many. Commonly available are
sets from 1/2" thru 1-5/8" in 1/8" increments. I have 3 sets like that which were
purchased at a very good price and then match ground. Out of the box they vary too
much. I have others that were made or acquired along with other tools, some are
I-beam style that give a wide surface, and they look cool. Also some made from
square tubing. I tend to keep several 1/8" thick by 6" aluminum blanks handy for the
odd size needed when the "standard" ones don't do the job. You might consider
cutting a step along one edge of your parallels so that during use the step is
placed against the jaws. That eliminates the sharp corner that catches chips easily
and leaves some space for a sharp or slightly burred part edge. If you harden your
parallels, don't make them too hard, you *will* drill into them sooner or later. Or
someone else will.

michael



--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

chem wrote:

Ahh, cool idea about the step - I hadn't thought of that. But "slightly
burred part edge"? Naw, I used to be a deburrer... My parts don't have
burred edges! (Yes, I realize that it only takes a tiny burr to throw
off a measurement, and I know that when I get out into the real world
I'm not going to have time to deburr all of my parts before I put them
in the vice. I'm just being a smartass) And yeah, I've seen some
parallels around the shop with holes drilled through them :P

chem


I should have been more clear. For instance, when squaring and having a burr thrown off 1
edge......but the key is the elinination of the sharp internal corner from the parallel
and jaw.

michael

Ahh, ok. Understood. How big should the step be? 1/8"? I guess
it's probably just personal preference.

chem

michael wrote:



I should have been more clear. For instance, when squaring and having a burr thrown off 1
edge......but the key is the elinination of the sharp internal corner from the parallel
and jaw.

michael




--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

chem wrote:

Ahh, ok. Understood. How big should the step be? 1/8"? I guess
it's probably just personal preference.

chem

michael wrote:



I should have been more clear. For instance, when squaring and having a burr thrown off 1
edge......but the key is the elinination of the sharp internal corner from the parallel
and jaw.

michael




--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

Depending on thickness of parallel, whatever suits your fancy. Keep in mind that you will need
to drill/bore holes very near part edge and may wish to turn them around so relief is away from
the jaw, leaving clearance for your cutting tool to go through unmolested. I have not done this
with my hardened parallels other than a couple pairs, wish I had. Do it with aluminum ones
usually. Most of the time I stick a shorter parallel next to the jaws, same effect.

enjoy

michael

"Well, my instructors were both machining for a living for a
long time before they started teaching this course, so they
have a pretty good idea of what's useful for us I guess."

I'll have more questions about your instructors after you
have more of your time invested in this machining
program. Also, after you have had awhile to get to know others
in this newsgroup and have kicked around some of their
ideas.

"Sure, hit me with the example "

It's very common to do secondary operations like 5 axis
drilling, reaming and very limited milling on a manual knee
mill with a tilting rotary table because many shops either
don't have a 5 axis CNC or don't want to tie an extremely
expensive machine up.It especially common to see this in
many aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication.

Can you see where this would make sense ?

"I think the point of making ours was just to get a few of
our skills checked off, and to have a little tool we could
use if we want/need to."

Okay, but do you think that when you make a shop tool in
class that it should not only build your machining skills
but also be a shop tool that can be practical to use when
you go to work in a machine shop ? If the shop tool takes too
long to setup, in what I like to call the real world of the
small machining job shop, is this a good shop tool to make
if you have a choice in the matter ? :)

You didn't think I was going to let you off the hook that
easy did you ? LOL

:)

"I have enough to absorb right now, with working ahead in
math and reading about metallurgy. Soon I'll be starting
the lathe section in the textbook, and there's a lot of
questions to work on with that."

Yes, understood. I'm trying very hard to not overwhelm you.
Let me know if it's too much.

"Then I've got a couple more presentations coming up in
communications class. :P"

You certainly don't want my opinion on what I think of your
"communications class" and how I would approach it. :)

"I've met a couple of machinists that would take the time to
explain things to me about machining even when I was just
deburring. I hope I get to work with more like them."

A couple of machinists in this newsgroup (not including
myself, here) have already shown a willingness to spend time
pointing out things that they feel are very helpful. Some of
these posters are people I have a great deal of respect for
and who, because of experience, are much better machinists
than I am. I do, however, have other technical skills that I
use to, shall we say, even up the odds to keep their egos in
check. ;)

"I don't much enjoy having to ask someone else if I can use
their tools, and wasting time digging through the shop to
find something - argh."

Hmmm you and I might think alike here. Wait till you see
what it's like "wasting time digging through the shop to
find something" when the pressure is really on. Your "argh"
might very well become something else more along the
expletive lines and you might very well forget all about a
recent hangover. :)

"Cool, I'll look into making one of these. It would be
handy to have."

When your ready ask and I will give you more details... if you
haven't figured it out on your own by then / already. ;)

"When I get on the horizontal mill I'll worry about learning
more about it. I've got enough on my plate right now."

I hear ya ! See what I wrote above.

"Lol, just like real life, then. Not everyone gets along. I
guess it's just an unfortunate fact of life. You can learn
something from everyone if you keep your ears (err, eyes in
this case) open. You just have to learn to ignore the
crap."

IMO, the advice Bottlebob gave you is most excellent. Give some
thought to following it, if you have not already reached your own
conclusion.

jon




"chem" wrote in message
...
Industry determines what we're taught, because they know what skills
they want us to have when we're ready to join the workforce (or re-enter
the workforce). Well, my instructors were both machining for a living
for a long time before they started teaching this course, so they have a
pretty good idea of what's useful for us I guess.

jon banquer wrote:


IMO, also very important to be able to do quickly. If you
wish I can provide an aerospace example of why it is
important and why a manual knee mill is often used to do
this kind of work in many CNC machine shops.

Sure, hit me with the example


If you get a chance try and look at any commercial boring
head so you can see how it is designed so that it can move
short distances accurately. Does your school have something
like a Bridgeport or a Criterion boring head that you can
examine so that you can see how they have been designed to
accomplish this task ?

We have a few commercial boring heads around the shop, and I've seen how
they work. I think the point of making ours was just to get a few of
our skills checked off, and to have a little tool we could use if we
want/need to.


Perhaps before... depends on you and how much you can or
want to absorb. :)

I have enough to absorb right now, with working ahead in math and
reading about metallurgy. Soon I'll be starting the lathe section in
the textbook, and there's a lot of questions to work on with that. Then
I've got a couple more presentations coming up in communications class.
:P


IMO you will find others, like I have, that will give you
"the shirt off their back" when it comes to sharing their
knowledge. After you have found others like this you may
notice, like I have, that they all fit a pattern that others
don't.

I've met a couple of machinists that would take the time to explain
things to me about machining even when I was just deburring. I hope I
get to work with more like them.

If you don't you will either have to buy them or spend your
time hunting for the shop tools / asking to use someone
else's. I never felt I had the time to do this as I wanted
to use my time on other things. I also like knowing what my
tools can do rather than being surprised by a tool that I
don't know. All depends on what your comfortable with and
willing to accept or not accept.

I don't much enjoy having to ask someone else if I can use their tools,
and wasting time digging through the shop to find something - argh. But
I have absolutely no problem letting someone else use one of my tools
as long as it finds its way back to my tool box when they're done with
it.


Not very complicated. It's all in the design and most
designs suck because they don't have a precise enough
adjustment to *easily* allow you to move in tenths. The
concept of how to do this is similar to controlling movement
of a boring head. The most complex thing you would need is a
piece of spring steel. Yes, you use a dial indicator with
it.

Cool, I'll look into making one of these. It would be handy to have.



"Most of the stuff about the horizontal mill... Well, I
could understand most of the terminology, but I couldn't
catch it all."

Ask them directly in the newsgroup or find someone you can
e-mail that you suspect / knows what they are doing and is
good at explaining their thoughts.

When I get on the horizontal mill I'll worry about learning more about
it. I've got enough on my plate right now.


Just a few of my observations over I think 5 or 6 years of
posting he

You might want to make sure before you do that your prepared
to take the heat and / or watch the bad vibes go down as the
fighting starts. At times the bad vibes will carry from
thread to thread and the level of hate will know no limits.

Lol, just like real life, then. Not everyone gets along. I guess it's
just an unfortunate fact of life. You can learn something from everyone
if you keep your ears (err, eyes in this case) open. You just have to
learn to ignore the crap.


You doing what I would call indexing with a rotary table. I
have a lot of stuff I would like to convey to you about
rotary tables. As you start to use them, and if your still
interested, I will have more to say. :)

Well, I guess I'll be starting with that today. I'll let you know how
it goes, and when I get the bare basics down you can pass on some of
your stuff to me.

chem

--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

"jon banquer" wrote in message
...

It's very common to do secondary operations like 5 axis
drilling, reaming and very limited milling on a manual knee
mill with a tilting rotary table because many shops either
don't have a 5 axis CNC or don't want to tie an extremely
expensive machine up.It especially common to see this in
many aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication.


jon,

For the life of me I cant figure out what also doing sheetmetal would have
to do with this.


Can you see where this would make sense ?




Nope.................................

................BUT.....................


I *WILL* venture a guess :

You somehow accidently pasted an extra line in there by mistake ???

Worked at several aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication
recently, have you ???

--

SVL

For the life of me I cant figure out what also doing sheetmetal would have
to do with this

One of the oldest aerospace job shops in Phoenix does a ton of work
like this.

You somehow accidently pasted an extra line in there by mistake ???

No mistake.

Worked at several aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication
recently, have you ???

How long is recently ?

jon




""PrecisionMachinisT"" wrote in message
...

"jon banquer" wrote in message
...

It's very common to do secondary operations like 5 axis
drilling, reaming and very limited milling on a manual knee
mill with a tilting rotary table because many shops either
don't have a 5 axis CNC or don't want to tie an extremely
expensive machine up.It especially common to see this in
many aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication.


jon,

For the life of me I cant figure out what also doing sheetmetal would have
to do with this.


Can you see where this would make sense ?




Nope.................................

...............BUT.....................


I *WILL* venture a guess :

You somehow accidently pasted an extra line in there by mistake ???

Worked at several aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication
recently, have you ???

--

SVL

Maybe you misunderstood.

The sheet metal department does the sheat metal work for the
weldments. Lots of Inconel rings welded to whatever.

If you want the companies name you can e-mail me and I will
give you the person to talk with who is head of the manual
department and he will backup what I'm saying. Anyone who
knows the Phoenix job shop market should have no trouble figuring
out what shop I mean, either.

jon











""PrecisionMachinisT"" wrote in message
...

"jon banquer" wrote in message
...

It's very common to do secondary operations like 5 axis
drilling, reaming and very limited milling on a manual knee
mill with a tilting rotary table because many shops either
don't have a 5 axis CNC or don't want to tie an extremely
expensive machine up.It especially common to see this in
many aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication.


jon,

For the life of me I cant figure out what also doing sheetmetal would have
to do with this.


Can you see where this would make sense ?




Nope.................................

...............BUT.....................


I *WILL* venture a guess :

You somehow accidently pasted an extra line in there by mistake ???

Worked at several aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication
recently, have you ???

--

SVL

"jon banquer" wrote in message
...


Lots of Inconel rings welded to whatever.


Hmm free clue ???

Sheet metal maybe ???

If you want the companies name you can e-mail me and I will

Remember, no email jon.

give you the person to talk with who is head of the manual
department and he will backup what I'm saying. Anyone who
knows the Phoenix job shop market should have no trouble figuring
out what shop I mean, either.

Be careful....... ( A clue for Gary )

I got twenty bucks says he already knows where you work.

Bet he even has photographs.

--

SVL

"jon banquer" wrote in message
...
For the life of me I cant figure out what also doing sheetmetal would
have
to do with this

One of the oldest aerospace job shops in Phoenix does a ton of work
like this.


So now "many aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication" has
turned into a single shop in Phoenix ???

--

SVL

So now "many aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication" has
turned into a single shop in Phoenix ???

Just an example that I'm willing to give that can be easily confirmed. ;)

Here's "a clue" on why I gave this example... they are Canadian owned.

How does the hook taste in the bait you swallowed, "Steve" ?

jon







""PrecisionMachinisT"" wrote in message
...

"jon banquer" wrote in message
...
For the life of me I cant figure out what also doing sheetmetal would
have
to do with this

One of the oldest aerospace job shops in Phoenix does a ton of work
like this.


So now "many aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication" has
turned into a single shop in Phoenix ???

--

SVL

You get that hook out of your mouth yet, "Steve" ?

LOL

jon




""PrecisionMachinisT"" wrote in message
...

"jon banquer" wrote in message
...


Lots of Inconel rings welded to whatever.


Hmm free clue ???

Sheet metal maybe ???

If you want the companies name you can e-mail me and I will

Remember, no email jon.

give you the person to talk with who is head of the manual
department and he will backup what I'm saying. Anyone who
knows the Phoenix job shop market should have no trouble figuring
out what shop I mean, either.

Be careful....... ( A clue for Gary )

I got twenty bucks says he already knows where you work.

Bet he even has photographs.

--

SVL

I still wanna know how this is "common"---- youve only given one (perhaps)
plausible instance.

Clues, clues.

Everywhere you look there are clues.

That games not so fun when the game is played on "Steve" or Sam.

LOL

It's just a Cheap Trick !

www.cheaptrickcom


jon




""PrecisionMachinisT"" wrote in message
...

"jon banquer" wrote in message
...
You get that hook out of your mouth yet, "Steve" ?


Nope.

I still wanna know how this is "common"---- youve only given one (perhaps)
plausible instance.

--

SVL

"jon banquer" wrote in message
...
So now "many aerospace shops that also do sheet metal fabrication" has
turned into a single shop in Phoenix ???

Just an example that I'm willing to give that can be easily confirmed. ;)

Here's "a clue" on why I gave this example... they are Canadian owned.

How does the hook taste in the bait you swallowed, "Steve" ?


What does Canadian ownership have anything to do with???

--

SVL