Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #41   Report Post  
Kurt {:{
 
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Default History of Machine Tools

Hi,
-
I see you are sort of close to me, I'm in NY. Rutland, VT is about a
four hour drive for me. I think Windsor was 5 hours over fromGlens
Falls, NY. I was there about 1990 and then it was just a collection of
machines like Ferdinand Snow's place of used machinery over in Westwood,
NJ, that spanned a few generations. There was a minature machine shop
to a very small scale, all working models, made by hand by an old
retired machinist/toolmaker they had on display there. I was impressed!
The display said it was ALL done by hand files in this guys spare time
until he died!! But when I was there, there wasn'tmuch of a paper trail
of history on display, just old machines to look at and a bit of a mess.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
http://www.americanprecision.org/Default2.html
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
The 1st computer run lathe I ran had a blinking idiot lights display
like "Robbie-the-Robot," run by a binary computer---a SOB of a big ass
turret lathe made by Pratt Whitney, the PJ400. This was 1975 for me,
that lathe had to be 1950's era. We used it to turn cast iron actuator
housings for Kieley and Mueller automatic control valves. I think the
PJ designation was a merger of Potter & Johnson, but just a guess.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Off Topic:
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The oldest automatic turret lathe I ran was a Potter & Johnson 3JU
Speedflex, probably at least WWII or before. It was basicly a glorified
clock with electrical relays. Dogs on a rotating drum that engaged
levers that engaged the relays. You'd start out cold in the morning,
especialy in the winter, then adjust tooling accordingly as it warmed
up, a real art to work tight tolerances and still keep daily quota. And
of course I was running two of 'em simultaneosly!
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
The 1st NC tape lathe I ran was the Warner & Swasey 1 SC, both chuckers
and bar stock machines that ran off perforated paper tape encoded
identical to the stock market ticker tapes of that era, supposedly built
early 1960's. I got on those in 1987! The back panel was just loaded
with circuit boards which overheated in the summerime and it had heat
safeties built in and would trip off. So I would open the rear circuit
board housing and aim a big floor fan in there to keep it cool and keep
working. (DUST?) Ideally suited to an air conditioned environment, but
bosses will be bosses!! A photoelectric eye read the code, BUT it also
read dust specks, and paper wrinkles---and BOY could that sucker
MOVE---and where you didn't want it to go! One tended to develop
lightning quick reflexes. When I was working these we used a flexible
plastic perforated tape, but stll the dust and wrinkles!
-
I would think some university, maybe MIT, developed these early computer
controlled machines as a research project as to the fundamental concept
and I would think the reason was for aerospace/Air Force purposes.
Wonder if MIT has a museum?
-
The 1st TV screened CNC I saw in our shop was a German made lathe that
came in new about 1977.
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Other Stuff:
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I was to Henry Ford's Museum near Detroit about 1961, I was about nine
years old. I still remember an old fashioned machine shop display
there.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Greenfield Village at The Henry Ford
http://www.hfmgv.org/village/libertycraftworks.asp
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In 1980 I was to Washington, D.C. and one of the Smithonian Museums had
a mid-1800's machine shop on display fired by a steam engine. I'd go
nuts if I was allowed access to their archive areas!
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
The Workbench Book
http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/070061.asp
~~~~~~~~~~
Within this Workbench Book, I think this is the book I read, there is a
description how the 1st WOOD helical leadscrews were made---sawn and
chiseled, then refined. Then from a rudimentary wood lathe with
screwcutting capabilities the first metal leadscrews were made, then
refined. And over time, eventually, the guy that made the Moore Jig
Borer got it down to millionths of an inch refinement to work accurately
to fifty millionths off hand wheeled controlled machines. Moore was in
Bridgeport, CT at one time, maybe still?. Maybe they got a museum?
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Some stuff from my stash:
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Medieval and Renaissance Lathes
http://www.his.com/~tom/sca/lathes.html
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Yahoo! Photos - View Photo
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group.../vwp?.dir=3D/=
treadle+ornamental+lathe&.src=3Dgr&.dnm=3Dornament al+treadle+lathe.jpg&.vi=
ew=3Dt&.done=3Dhttp%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/humanpoweredmachinet=
ools/lst%3f%26.dir=3D/treadle%2bornamental%2b
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Soule Live Steam
http://groups.msn.com/SouleLiveSteam...?action=3DSho=
wPhoto&PhotoID=3D7
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I found ALL this stuff off GOOGLE initially, then searches within
MSN.com and Yahoo.com Some of my searches (not necessarily machine
shop) are rather intense, instead of watching a game on the TV, I go
find something.
-
Oh, yeah---used bookstores in Maine got some interesting finds, if not
to buy, just read. There is one place in Wells, ME out on the main road
just south of "The Lighthouse Depot" (a store) that had a $200 big
pictorial book on how steam engines were made.
-
I think finding a chronological history of machining may be difficult as
to who or what was 1st as to the needs of the marketplace or just the
fact that people were interested in working, not necessarily interested
in keeping an accurate record of it. Kind of like asking who the 1st
blacksmith was and who invented the hammer?
-
My father-in-law told me some interesting stories what went on to Bell
Aircraft in Buffalo, NY during WWII. Try finding history on that or the
entire factory full of old machines buried somewhere under the
production floor there and sealed over in concrete to justify buying all
new!
-
Take care,
-
Kurt
{:{
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



History of Machine Tools

Group: rec.crafts.metalworking Date: Sat, Oct 25, 2003, 8:31pm (EST+5)
From: (Errol=A0Groff)
I am preparing a research assignment for my students on this subject.
Looking for suggestions as to names which might be used as search terms
or links to sites that would be appropriate.
Also, I am not remembering the names that were involved in the creation
of the first NC machines back in the late forties/early fifties. I know
that the info is back in my head somewhere but it is not coming forward.
Help would be appreciated!
I don't want togfive the kids everything obviously but I do need to give
them enough to get started It is tough to do research on a subject when
you don't know enough about it to even know what questions to ask.
Thanks for your help!
Errol Groff
Instructor, Machine Tool Department
H.H. Ellis Tech
613 Upper Maple Street
Danielson, CT 06239
860 774 8511 x1811
http://pages.cthome.net/errol.groff/
http://newenglandmodelengineeringsociety.org/

  #42   Report Post  
Excitable Boy
 
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Default History of Machine Tools

"Stanley Dornfeld" wrote in message
...



These references come from "Metalworking Yesterday and Tomorrow" The

100th
Anniversary Issue of American Machinist



You might also try to contact Cincinnati Machine. In 1986 they
published a really great 100th-anniversary history of what was
then Cincinnati-Milacron. It's a little Cincinnati-centric but
has a lot of general info as well, plus it makes the human side
of manufacturing more interesting. Stephen Heald was a wacko ...
  #43   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Kurt {:{
says...

....
machines like Ferdinand Snow's place of used machinery over in Westwood,
NJ, that spanned a few generations.


In westwood? Where in westwood? Is there any of that
still left?

Jim

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  #44   Report Post  
Kurt {:{
 
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Default History of Machine Tools

Hi Jim,
-
This was awhile back, probably 10 to 15 years ago. The guy's place was
Ferdinand Snow used machinery. Coming down from Mahwah, before Paramus,
over off Rt.17, coming east, cross the RXR tracks, thru town, on the
main drag on the right, a couple miles. Maybe do a PHONEBOOK via
computer to see if he is still around? Or maybe somebody else has it.
At the time, most shops I knew about, knew this guy. Do you have
anybody in here from Bergen County, NJ? Maybe they got the scoop.
-
Kurt
{:{

  #45   Report Post  
Neil Ellwood
 
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Default History of Machine Tools

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:08:15 -0800, jim rozen wrote:

In article , Kurt {:{
says...

...
machines like Ferdinand Snow's place of used machinery over in Westwood,
NJ, that spanned a few generations.


In westwood? Where in westwood? Is there any of that
still left?

Probably sent to Peterborough UK. We have a Westwood.
--
Neil
My address is Spamless.


  #46   Report Post  
chem
 
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Default History of Machine Tools

I missed the OP about learning other things instead of just the
practical side of machining... I have to throw in my two cents, FWIW.
I'm taking an 8-9 month machining course. In addition to the practical,
hands-on stuff we also have:
-8 full days of CAD - spread out over a month
-half a day of math per week - our book is Mathematics for Machine
Technology, so we're actually learning things we'll be applying in the shop
-half a day of communications class per week. This is the one that a
lot of the people in our class have trouble realizing the value of.
We've been covering positive attitudes, teamwork, time management,
presentations, and computer skills (email, word processing, etc. CAD
and CNC programming aren't covered in communications). Not really
anything you need to be a good (or even excellent) machinist, but I've
met a few machinists before I started school who would have been easier
to work with if they'd learned a few of those things and followed them.
(I hope it goes without saying - that's not just limited to
machinists... there are difficult people everywhere)
-We also have a machining textbook that we're supposed to work through
and videos to watch. We spend a couple of hours a week of classroom
time on this, working at our own pace.

CAD, math, and the textbook I've been having no troubles with.
Communications class is driving me nuts. I understand the usefulness of
it all, and I appreciate having the chance to learn the things we're
covering. I'm just feeling a bit down on it because I've got an oral
presentation coming up tomorrow.

Yeah, and I wish we'd had a shop program in high school too. Guess it
wouldn't have mattered much for me anyway because I had no idea what a
machine shop even was until i'd been out of high school for a few years.


chem

jon banquer wrote:

that topic could be covered in another class. Maybe make
it part of the english curriculum.



IMO, this would be the right approach. Those interested in
machining attend a english class that has been tailored to
their curriculum.


Just as the math classes should be oriented to machining.



Again, agreed. Wish I had a choice like this when I was in
high school.

Excellent post... almost makes up for your short sighted
anti-union one.

LOL

:)

jon









"john" wrote in message
...

BottleBob wrote:

Errol Groff wrote:

I am preparing a research assignment for my students on this subject.

Errol:

The history of Machine tools seems like it would be a


interesting

subject, BUT... If I were in a limited time machine shop class for the
purpose of increasing my skill level with the hope of becoming an
employable entry level machinist, I think *I'd* (and probably
prospective shop owners might also) be more interested in just HOW to
edge find or indicator sweep my parts rather than knowing WHO designed
the first edge finder, or indicator, or CNC.
Don't take this wrong, I don't mean to be overly critical here,


I'm

just giving you a view from a job-shop productivity standpoint. If I
were interviewing two prospective entry level apprentices I'd be more
inclined to hire the one that showed a knowledge of the practical
application of theory over one that had historical knowledge.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob



Errol,

that topic could be covered in another class. Maybe make it part of the
english curriculum. Just as the math classes should be oriented to
machining. It would make you job easier if you only had to fill their
brains with the actual machine operations.

John





--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl

  #47   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default History of Machine Tools

In article , Kurt {:{
says...

Hi Jim,
-
This was awhile back, probably 10 to 15 years ago. The guy's place was
Ferdinand Snow used machinery. Coming down from Mahwah, before Paramus,
over off Rt.17, coming east, cross the RXR tracks, thru town, on the
main drag on the right, a couple miles. Maybe do a PHONEBOOK via
computer to see if he is still around? Or maybe somebody else has it.
At the time, most shops I knew about, knew this guy. Do you have
anybody in here from Bergen County, NJ? Maybe they got the scoop.


LOL. That would be me. I grew up in closter, that same
town with Sobel's. My first job was working at the schwinn
shop in westwood.

I'm aware of Sobel's, and also there's the Tool Chest in
Emerson NJ just down the road. But I never saw Ferdinand
Snows, I'll check into it. By your directions it would be
out beyond the main part of town, past 5 corners.

Jim

==================================================
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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #48   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default History of Machine Tools

In article , jim rozen says...

This was awhile back, probably 10 to 15 years ago. The guy's place was
Ferdinand Snow used machinery. Coming down from Mahwah, before Paramus,
over off Rt.17, coming east, cross the RXR tracks, thru town, on the
main drag on the right, a couple miles. Maybe do a PHONEBOOK via
computer to see if he is still around? Or maybe somebody else has it.
At the time, most shops I knew about, knew this guy. Do you have
anybody in here from Bergen County, NJ? Maybe they got the scoop.


I'm aware of Sobel's, and also there's the Tool Chest in
Emerson NJ just down the road. But I never saw Ferdinand
Snows, I'll check into it. By your directions it would be
out beyond the main part of town, past 5 corners.


Ah, looks like he's now *in* Mahwah:

Snow Ferdinand J Inc

63 Ramapo Valley Rd
Mahwah, NJ 07430-1133
Phone:
(201) 512-9499

Maybe Ed Huntress knows this place?

==================================================
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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #49   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default History of Machine Tools

In article , chem says...

CAD, math, and the textbook I've been having no troubles with.
Communications class is driving me nuts. I understand the usefulness of
it all, and I appreciate having the chance to learn the things we're
covering. I'm just feeling a bit down on it because I've got an oral
presentation coming up tomorrow.


Sounds like a very aggressive program. Where's the school?

Actually the oral presentations can be fun if you don't take
them too seriously. They say the best way is to imagine your
audience with no clothes on.

=8-O

Works best only with certain audiences.

Don't over-prepare.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #50   Report Post  
Kirk Gordon
 
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Default History of Machine Tools

Mark Fields wrote:
I don't read this as a lie at all. It's all in how you read things. I
believe they are telling the history of G&L, not the history of machine
tools.

Therefore they are stating they built "THEIR" first NC machine tool in 1955.

It would be different had they put "invented the first NC machine tool".



Yeah, it's a lie. The beginnings of NC/CNC were done by a couple
guys in a tool shop in Traverse City, Michigan. They made charts of X/Y
coordinates for movements on a Bridgeport mill. Then one guy stood in
front of the machine with the saddle handle (Y axis), while another
stood at the side of the machine with the table handle (X axis), and
they made simultaneous moves in a step by step fashion.'

This wasn't NC machining, of course; but it was a beginning. The
two guys in the tool shop (Parsons might have been one of them; but the
names escape me at the moment), showed their idea to the defense
department as a way to improve and streamline the manufacture of
military stuff. That led to the idea being taken up by MIT, with DOD
funding, where the two guys with charts and handles were replaced by
punched cards, crude calculating machines with relays and vacuum tubes,
and electric motors. THAT was the first NC machine.

If the iron that this idea was first applied to happened to be a G&L,
or a Bridgeport, or whatever, it seems to me that that was totally
incidendtal. G&L not only didn't invent it; but they were actually
pretty slow to do anything that ended up being sold as a useful machine.

Based on what I've read, heard, looked at in museums, and seen with
my own eyes (I'm old, you know), G&L didn't invent NC or CNC machining
any more than Al Gore invented the internet.

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.



  #51   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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Default History of Machine Tools

"Kirk Gordon" wrote in message
...

Yeah, it's a lie. The beginnings of NC/CNC were done by a couple
guys in a tool shop in Traverse City, Michigan.


That was Parsons Corp., Traverse City. They were producing helicopter-blade
templets with the aid of an IBM 602A Multiplier, calculating positions and
then setting the machine to those positions by hand.

They made charts of X/Y
coordinates for movements on a Bridgeport mill.


A Swiss jig borer, actually.

This wasn't NC machining, of course; but it was a beginning. The
two guys in the tool shop (Parsons might have been one of them; but the
names escape me at the moment), showed their idea to the defense
department as a way to improve and streamline the manufacture of
military stuff.


Integral-rib wing skins were the items that provoked the whole idea of using
electronic control, but the original Air Force demonstrations were on a
helicopter blade. Then demos were done in late 1948 on a 16-in.-wingspan
wing model with a tapered chord. The demos were done at Snyder Corp. in
Detroit. The Air Force granted the contract on June 15, 1949.

That led to the idea being taken up by MIT, with DOD
funding, where the two guys with charts and handles were replaced by
punched cards, crude calculating machines with relays and vacuum tubes,
and electric motors. THAT was the first NC machine.


That's pretty much it. It should be pointed out that it was controlled by a
computer, not by a simple logic controller, so it was also the first CNC
machine.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)


  #52   Report Post  
Kirk Gordon
 
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Default History of Machine Tools

I sort of agree with you, BB, if you take only the short view, and
if your only concern is to make chips in the near future. But if you
really want a healthy industry, and skilled people to keep it healthy,
then you need to have some traditions, some famous names, and some sense
of perspective, in the minds of people who are trying to learn to be
machinists.

There are already too many people in our business who think that the
whole thing starts and ends with their own machines, their own narrow
bits of knowledge, and their own ideas about how smart and skilled they
are. To understand the history of an entire business, and to know the
names of some of the people who changed and drove it, and some of the
innovations that have made it what it is, is to have a better sense of
one's own small place in the overall scheme of things, and of how MUCH
there is to learn, and how much room there is for growth, innovation,
and individual accomplishment.

Equally important, IMHO, is the fact that many people seem to learn
more eagerly, and more effectively, when the knowledge they're offered
comes with some kind of context that makes sense to them. If you're
attending a class and paying attention only because it's a way to get a
job in a machine shop, or because you can't get a certificate unless you
put up with whatever the teacher tells you, then you're not really
getting all you can out of the learning opportunity. If you're taught,
however, that there's a whole world full of innovative, productive,
important, and sometimes very wealthy people, and that it can be an
honor, a challenge, and even a privilege to earn your way into that
world, then everything else might have much more meaning, and might
become something a student WANTS to learn, rather than just needing to.

Future lawyers, I suspect, can be energized, and given a sense of
the gravity of their work and profession, if they're taught about a
dirt-poor country boy named Lincoln, who turned his love for books and
law into one of the most important presidencies in the history of the
United States. Doctors take an oath that was written, for the most
part, 2,500 years ago. It's a way of teaching them about the traditions
and history that guide the practice of medicine, and about standards of
conduct that they're responsible to uphold and perpetuate. Those things
don't always work, of course; but I can't believe that either the legal
world, or the medical profession, would be better off without some clear
and constant contact with their histories.

Cadets at West Point are expected to learn about "The Chain", and
about a million other pieces of military history, before they're
considered true candidates for commissions in the US Army. Knowing all
that stuff won't make the cadets into better marksmen, or better
tank-drivers, or better bridge-builders; but it might help them try a
bit harder, if they know something about how hard others have tried in
the past, and for what purposes, and with what results. It might also
give them a better sense of the reasons for command structures, and for
military codes of conduct; and help them have more trust in their
commanders, teachers, and other mentors, as they move through all the
steps that might one day lead to their own place in history.

People can be awed, motivated, challenged, and even impelled to
excellence, when they're shown something about what others have
accomplished in the past, and about how, and why, accomplishment really
happens. A machinist who's never heard of "The Arsenal of Democracy"
might not realize that it was people just like himself, reading prints
and making chips, who once made such a difference in the entire history
of the world. Someone who lacks that knowledge, and that sense of
perspective, might think "it's just a job" and might treat it
accordingly, and might therefore miss out on the excitement, the energy,
and the opportunities for achievement, that could end up helping to
change history again, tomorrow. Someone who doesn't know that it was
machinists - and the sons of machinists who went to engineering school -
who once, literally, put the whole world on wheels, might miss a chance
to dream of greatness for himself in the future, or to work toward his
dreams with commitment and zeal.

It may seem childish or naive for a student to imagine himself (or
herself) becomming the next Henry Ford, or the next Wilbur Wright, or
the next Frank Landis, or Ralph Cross, or Charles DeVlieg... But where
will the future leaders of industry come from, if not from the dreams of
those just starting out today? Will people who learn only because
they're required to, ever have visions that reach beyond their next
paycheck? Will those who think it's only a job, and that they only do
it because they didn't get a scholarship to business school, ever
realize that it can be more than a job, and that you can get out of a
profession - any profession - as much as you put into it?

Will people who know nothing about the history of the industry be
capable of understanding - in context, and with depth and insight - the
current state of our business, or problems that have roots in prior
generations? Will they be able to solve those problems, to compete with
Chinese and Indian companies, to protect and strengthen America's
industrial economy, if they don't even know that there is such a thing,
or where it came from, or how it got to the point of needing to be
protected?

Are we really willing to demote our profession to something that has
no history worth teaching, and no traditions worth learning, and no
depth or importance that we expect future machinists to understand and
protect and propagate?

I agree that history lessons won't make people better able to solve
trig problems, or to remember which G code is for clockwise circles, or
to figure out why a surface finish is so rough and nasty...

But the reason WHY anyone would want to learn those things, and
would keep learning, and keep growing, and keep improving, every single
day, is something that happens deep inside a human being. And it's
often something that happens best, most fully, and most succesfully,
when there's a history, and a community, and a sense of pride and
purpose, that a student can aspire to be part of.

We all like to belong to something. We all need and enjoy the
benefits of membership in families, communities, churches, fraternities,
bowling leagues, or whatever. It's part of human nature. If we're
going to train the machinists of the future, then why WOULDN'T we show
them just how big, and how old, and how awesome our particular club
really is? Why wouldn't we offer them something to look forward to, and
some kind of membership that deserves their effort, and their
concentration, and in which they might earn rewards that they've never
thought of? Why wouldn't we want them to learn and think about things
that go far beyond immediate concerns like passing a paper test in a
classroom, or reaming a hole to size in the shop?

We don't need more or better button-pushers, BB. We need more
people who see the metal cutting world as a career, as a globe-spanning
imperative, as a vital part of economic and political and military
history... in the past AND the future.

Any Chinese peasant with an index finger can press the start button
on a CNC machine. But how many of todays young students can we truly
prepare to invent the machinery, and to develop the methods, and to make
the decisions, which will determine whether there even IS a metal
cutting industry in the US, half a generation from now? And what can we
do to improve their chances?

In my mind, teaching them where they're starting from, and how/why
we got here, is an important part of the answer.

Respectfully,
KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.


BottleBob wrote:

The history of Machine tools seems like it would be a interesting
subject, BUT... If I were in a limited time machine shop class for the
purpose of increasing my skill level with the hope of becoming an
employable entry level machinist, I think *I'd* (and probably
prospective shop owners might also) be more interested in just HOW to
edge find or indicator sweep my parts rather than knowing WHO designed
the first edge finder, or indicator, or CNC.
Don't take this wrong, I don't mean to be overly critical here, I'm
just giving you a view from a job-shop productivity standpoint. If I
were interviewing two prospective entry level apprentices I'd be more
inclined to hire the one that showed a knowledge of the practical
application of theory over one that had historical knowledge.



  #53   Report Post  
Nicholas Carter
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

One of my favorite books is "When the Machine Stopped - A Cautionary
Tale from Industrial America" by Max Holland, Harvard Business School
Press 1989, ISBN 0-87584-244-5

It is a history of the rise and fall of the Burgmaster Corporation,
and includes their attempts to break into the NC market, and compete
with Giddings and Lewis.

Although it is an economics text, it reads quite well and contains the
full history of the company.

Nick

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:31:09 GMT, Errol Groff
wrote:

I am preparing a research assignment for my students on this subject.
Looking for suggestions as to names which might be used as search
terms or links to sites that would be appropriate.

Also, I am not remembering the names that were involved in the
creation of the first NC machines back in the late forties/early
fifties. I know that the info is back in my head somewhere but it is
not coming forward. Help would be appreciated!



  #54   Report Post  
Kirk Gordon
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

You might want to look at http://www.emachinetool.com/machine_museum.cfm

There's a forum for people actually interested in machine-tool
history, archives of past articles from the museum's magazine, and also
a machine tool "Hall of Fame". The hall of fame is a list of names,
including John Parsons, with good but brief articles about some key
people, and their contributions to the state of the art.

Other links from the site ought to lead your students as far and
wide as their curiosity cares to go.

Hope this helps!

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.


Errol Groff wrote:
I am preparing a research assignment for my students on this subject.
Looking for suggestions as to names which might be used as search
terms or links to sites that would be appropriate.

Also, I am not remembering the names that were involved in the
creation of the first NC machines back in the late forties/early
fifties. I know that the info is back in my head somewhere but it is
not coming forward. Help would be appreciated!

I don't want togfive the kids everything obviously but I do need to
give them enough to get started It is tough to do research on a
subject when you don't know enough about it to even know what
questions to ask.

Thanks for your help!

Errol Groff
Instructor, Machine Tool Department
H.H. Ellis Tech
613 Upper Maple Street
Danielson, CT 06239

860 774 8511 x1811

http://pages.cthome.net/errol.groff/

http://newenglandmodelengineeringsociety.org/



  #55   Report Post  
Kirk Gordon
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

Ed Huntress wrote:

That's pretty much it. It should be pointed out that it was controlled by a
computer, not by a simple logic controller, so it was also the first CNC
machine.


Really? Are you sure? I didn't know that!

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.



  #56   Report Post  
Kurt {:{
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools (Westwood)

Hi Jim,
-
I still owe you lunch for those tubes you sent me for my intercom.
-
I was only to Westwood once. I was on a mission with my boss looking at
some used equipment. This place was a fairly good sized concrete block
building, looked to be built 1950's era,on the south side of the Blvd.
This guy bought stuff used, fixed it up, then resold it. I know when I
was working to Grant Hardware in West Nyack, some of our stuff came from
him.
-
I contacted Sobel personally a couple of times over the years, but to
me, he was always gruffy (prima donna die maker mentality), and I didn't
like his attitude, so I never did business with him. I have talked to
the guy to http://www.mermac.com and bought some stuff. He knows/knew
Sobel as a machinery source and both these guys have done Cabin Fever
Expo. He's down on Long Island around the Freeport area.
-
I did carpentry for awhile, pre-machine shop days. During the 1974 Oil
Embargo I signed up for 6 years Navy Reserve Seabees as work was a wee
bit scarce. I was gone 6 months doing Basic, schools and some combat
training. If you ever get up to Beacon, NY, just below the hospital
there, is a 4 bay ambulance HQ & rec hall, RNMCB13 built, my claim to
fame. Nice thing about building things, testaments that I was there
once upon a time. On winter carpenter layoff in 1975 I took a 165 hour
turret lathe course here in Middletown at Kieley and Mueller, Inc. to
run automatic turret lathes funded by a government program to get off
unemployment and my one year drafting program under Mr. Vizvary (also
the soccer coach) in tool design training I got to Ulster County
Community College came in handy and that's how I got into machining, a
hell of lot easier than swinging a hammer! I worked around learning on
the job and a few years later kind of apprenticed under a prick (read
SOB) tool maker and worked in a couple different shops doing tooling
work, then I hurt my back on a part time construction job, and that was
that. I got over twenty years in the machine shop trade and can't do
the standing anymore. Well, I supose I could do it, but I wouldn't be a
happy camper (read PAIN!!). Any shop I ever worked in, SITTING was not
allowed. Really funny. I'm thinking about the real estate racket for
these tired old bones.
-
Well, I have fun reminscing (sp?) (remembering) with you guys. I must
say you guys are intimidating or else you all got the gift of gab.
Most of the bull sh*t artists I knew weren't too good at doing anything.
The really good guys weren't too good at the gabbing. And I've seen
high school drop outs, close to genius level in the mechanical trades as
to practical know how. Higher education doesn't necessarily mean poo!
Though I think the engineering studies would be fun. Well, you guys at
least are entertaining and seem to be very in the know. This is my
favorite site on the WWW .
-
Kurt
{:{
-
Can't shut this guy up!
(I change e-mail addies frequently to stay ahead of the spammers, but
the {:{ is always me. Wish I had that much hair! I think somebody
here ain't too fond of WEBTVers and lately quite a bit of spam, but
changes to MSNTV lately should curtail most of it. If I ever get jury
duty to some SOB spammer, I'll show NO mecy!) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



History of Machine Tools =8BErrol Groff=9B =8BJim R.=9B

Group: rec.crafts.metalworking Date: Mon, Oct 27, 2003, 4:54am (EST-3)
From: (jim=A0rozen)
In article ,
Kurt {:{ says...
Hi Jim,
-
This was awhile back, probably 10 to 15 years ago. The guy's place was
Ferdinand Snow used machinery. Coming down from Mahwah, before Paramus,
over off Rt.17, coming east, cross the RXR tracks, thru town, on the
main drag on the right, a couple miles. Maybe do a PHONEBOOK via
computer to see if he is still around? Or maybe somebody else has it. At
the time, most shops I knew about, knew this guy. Do you have anybody in
here from Bergen County, NJ? Maybe they got the scoop.
LOL. That would be me. I grew up in closter, that same town with
Sobel's. My first job was working at the schwinn shop in westwood.
I'm aware of Sobel's, and also there's the Tool Chest in Emerson NJ just
down the road. But I never saw Ferdinand Snows, I'll check into it. By
your directions it would be out beyond the main part of town, past 5
corners.
Jim
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A 0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0please
reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D

  #57   Report Post  
Kirk Gordon
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

Ed Huntress wrote:


These references come from "Metalworking Yesterday and Tomorrow" The


100th

Anniversary Issue of American Machinist


Take a look at the masthead, or at back of the issue, and see who the
editors were. g

I have a couple of copies, which are worth their weight in gold. But I'll
let Errol have one for a while, if he wants to copy anything from it. I
wrote a number of the items in that history, mostly about the 1930's and
1940's.

Ed Huntress



Damn, Ed!

I think that makes you a certified celebrity around here. Very cool!

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.

  #58   Report Post  
Stanley Dornfeld
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

Hi there Kirk..

That's the exact story I've read in MMS yearly "Thick" magazine. I don't
remember what MMS calls it's yearly offering.

Regards,

Stan-

"Kirk Gordon" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

That's pretty much it. It should be pointed out that it was controlled

by a
computer, not by a simple logic controller, so it was also the first CNC
machine.


Really? Are you sure? I didn't know that!

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.



  #59   Report Post  
Stanley Dornfeld
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

That sounds like a good course Chem.

Best of luck to you.

Regards,

Stan-

"chem" wrote in message
...
I missed the OP about learning other things instead of just the
practical side of machining... I have to throw in my two cents, FWIW.
I'm taking an 8-9 month machining course. In addition to the practical,
hands-on stuff we also have:
-8 full days of CAD - spread out over a month
-half a day of math per week - our book is Mathematics for Machine
Technology, so we're actually learning things we'll be applying in the

shop
-half a day of communications class per week. This is the one that a
lot of the people in our class have trouble realizing the value of.
We've been covering positive attitudes, teamwork, time management,
presentations, and computer skills (email, word processing, etc. CAD
and CNC programming aren't covered in communications). Not really
anything you need to be a good (or even excellent) machinist, but I've
met a few machinists before I started school who would have been easier
to work with if they'd learned a few of those things and followed them.
(I hope it goes without saying - that's not just limited to
machinists... there are difficult people everywhere)
-We also have a machining textbook that we're supposed to work through
and videos to watch. We spend a couple of hours a week of classroom
time on this, working at our own pace.

CAD, math, and the textbook I've been having no troubles with.
Communications class is driving me nuts. I understand the usefulness of
it all, and I appreciate having the chance to learn the things we're
covering. I'm just feeling a bit down on it because I've got an oral
presentation coming up tomorrow.

Yeah, and I wish we'd had a shop program in high school too. Guess it
wouldn't have mattered much for me anyway because I had no idea what a
machine shop even was until i'd been out of high school for a few years.


chem

jon banquer wrote:

that topic could be covered in another class. Maybe make
it part of the english curriculum.



IMO, this would be the right approach. Those interested in
machining attend a english class that has been tailored to
their curriculum.


Just as the math classes should be oriented to machining.



Again, agreed. Wish I had a choice like this when I was in
high school.

Excellent post... almost makes up for your short sighted
anti-union one.

LOL

:)

jon









"john" wrote in message
...

BottleBob wrote:

Errol Groff wrote:

I am preparing a research assignment for my students on this subject.

Errol:

The history of Machine tools seems like it would be a


interesting

subject, BUT... If I were in a limited time machine shop class for the
purpose of increasing my skill level with the hope of becoming an
employable entry level machinist, I think *I'd* (and probably
prospective shop owners might also) be more interested in just HOW to
edge find or indicator sweep my parts rather than knowing WHO designed
the first edge finder, or indicator, or CNC.
Don't take this wrong, I don't mean to be overly critical here,


I'm

just giving you a view from a job-shop productivity standpoint. If I
were interviewing two prospective entry level apprentices I'd be more
inclined to hire the one that showed a knowledge of the practical
application of theory over one that had historical knowledge.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob


Errol,

that topic could be covered in another class. Maybe make it part of the
english curriculum. Just as the math classes should be oriented to
machining. It would make you job easier if you only had to fill their
brains with the actual machine operations.

John





--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl



  #60   Report Post  
john
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

Kirk Gordon wrote:

You might want to look at http://www.emachinetool.com/machine_museum.cfm

There's a forum for people actually interested in machine-tool
history, archives of past articles from the museum's magazine, and also
a machine tool "Hall of Fame". The hall of fame is a list of names,
including John Parsons, with good but brief articles about some key
people, and their contributions to the state of the art.

Other links from the site ought to lead your students as far and
wide as their curiosity cares to go.

Hope this helps!

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.

Errol Groff wrote:
I am preparing a research assignment for my students on this subject.
Looking for suggestions as to names which might be used as search
terms or links to sites that would be appropriate.

Also, I am not remembering the names that were involved in the
creation of the first NC machines back in the late forties/early
fifties. I know that the info is back in my head somewhere but it is
not coming forward. Help would be appreciated!

I don't want togfive the kids everything obviously but I do need to
give them enough to get started It is tough to do research on a
subject when you don't know enough about it to even know what
questions to ask.

Thanks for your help!

Errol Groff
Instructor, Machine Tool Department
H.H. Ellis Tech
613 Upper Maple Street
Danielson, CT 06239

860 774 8511 x1811

http://pages.cthome.net/errol.groff/

http://newenglandmodelengineeringsociety.org/



A side to the machine tool industry is the development of cutting tools
and how it changed the way parts were manufactured. Muntz metal, carbon
steel, stelite and all the newer material used to make the cutting
tools. A job that took a whole day 100 years ago takes 10 minutes
today. Machine tools would not do what they do without the development
of the cutters themselves.

John


  #61   Report Post  
john
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

Kirk Gordon wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

That's pretty much it. It should be pointed out that it was controlled by a
computer, not by a simple logic controller, so it was also the first CNC
machine.


Really? Are you sure? I didn't know that!

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.



I think that was done with punch cards, one for each move. There was no
memory storage as we know it today.Memory was limited by the number to
tubes in the control. One tube for each two bits of data. They did
have mechanical relays the were used. Think pin ball machines.


John
  #62   Report Post  
john
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Stanley Dornfeld" wrote in message
...
This ought to get you started. *Smile

The question this group has been looking for a definitive answer for is:
How did the "Letter" size drills come into being and why?

Now, a number of members in this group have made some good contributions

in
support of the origin; but I don't think anyone has been able to "rubber
stamp" the quest complete.

Maybe one of your students might take up the banner.

These references come from "Metalworking Yesterday and Tomorrow" The

100th
Anniversary Issue of American Machinist
The book was given to me by Pete Noling ,who sold me my first Hurco in
1/15/'79 Seaboard Machinery Los Angeles --


Take a look at the masthead, or at back of the issue, and see who the
editors were. g

I have a couple of copies, which are worth their weight in gold. But I'll
let Errol have one for a while, if he wants to copy anything from it. I
wrote a number of the items in that history, mostly about the 1930's and
1940's.

Ed Huntress


Ed,

Maybe you should give a lecture. Danbury isn't that far.

John
  #63   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

"Kirk Gordon" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

That's pretty much it. It should be pointed out that it was controlled

by a
computer, not by a simple logic controller, so it was also the first CNC
machine.


Really? Are you sure? I didn't know that!


Well, I'm sure to the degree that the people who researched and wrote the
rest of what I posted about it made a very big point of it around 25 years
ago. American Machinist was deeply involved in reporting on it ever since
Parsons got the ball rolling. The people who wrote that material above knew
him well, and were in on the whole thing.

It was a modest computer they say, but a computer nonetheless, that the
MIT/Air Force/Parsons research machine was controlled by.

Incidentally, there were tape-controlled machine tools going back to 1906,
but they never went anywhere until Parsons got the Air Force involved. They
were sort of machine-tool versions of the old punch-card-controlled weaving
looms.

Ed Huntress


  #64   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

"john" wrote in message
...
Kirk Gordon wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

That's pretty much it. It should be pointed out that it was controlled

by a
computer, not by a simple logic controller, so it was also the first

CNC
machine.


Really? Are you sure? I didn't know that!

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.



I think that was done with punch cards, one for each move. There was no
memory storage as we know it today.Memory was limited by the number to
tubes in the control. One tube for each two bits of data. They did
have mechanical relays the were used. Think pin ball machines.


John


No, I don't think so, John. What you're describing sounds like some of the
commercial machines that came out in the mid-'50s, like the J&L Binotrol,
and the G&L Numericord.

I don't have access to the old reports anymore, but the MIT machine was
described as a computer-controlled machine. It had a vacuum-tube computer
controlling it. I don't recall if I ever read just what the functions of the
computer were.

Ed Huntress


  #65   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

"Kirk Gordon" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:


These references come from "Metalworking Yesterday and Tomorrow" The


100th

Anniversary Issue of American Machinist


Take a look at the masthead, or at back of the issue, and see who the
editors were. g

I have a couple of copies, which are worth their weight in gold. But

I'll
let Errol have one for a while, if he wants to copy anything from it. I
wrote a number of the items in that history, mostly about the 1930's and
1940's.

Ed Huntress



Damn, Ed!

I think that makes you a certified celebrity around here. Very cool!

KG



Not a celebrity, but it does make me certifiably old.

Ed Huntress




  #66   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

"john" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

"Stanley Dornfeld" wrote in message
...
This ought to get you started. *Smile

The question this group has been looking for a definitive answer for

is:
How did the "Letter" size drills come into being and why?

Now, a number of members in this group have made some good

contributions
in
support of the origin; but I don't think anyone has been able to

"rubber
stamp" the quest complete.

Maybe one of your students might take up the banner.

These references come from "Metalworking Yesterday and Tomorrow" The

100th
Anniversary Issue of American Machinist
The book was given to me by Pete Noling ,who sold me my first Hurco in
1/15/'79 Seaboard Machinery Los Angeles --


Take a look at the masthead, or at back of the issue, and see who the
editors were. g

I have a couple of copies, which are worth their weight in gold. But

I'll
let Errol have one for a while, if he wants to copy anything from it. I
wrote a number of the items in that history, mostly about the 1930's and
1940's.

Ed Huntress


Ed,

Maybe you should give a lecture. Danbury isn't that far.

John


Nah, I'm no expert on it. I was just one of a team of editors who researched
and put that history together. We each took a few slices of it and studied
them for a year or so.

A great deal of the research material was right in the building with us --
the collection of American Machinist magazines going back to 1877, and the
McGraw-Hill corporate library, which contained every important book
published on machining up to the early 1950s. McGraw-Hill published most of
those produced in the US up until that time, anyway.

And some of our editors knew the key people very well. Colvin had been an AM
editor himself at one time. Dick Moore used to come in for lunch. Parsons
was around from time to time. Andy Ashburn, who wrote much of the WWII
training material for machinists, was our Editor when I was there. And so
on. We had the living history right there with us.

The curators at the American Precision Museum in Vermont know more about it
than anyone alive. If you ever get up there, stop in. It's worth it.

Ed Huntress


  #67   Report Post  
Kirk Gordon
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

Errol Groff wrote:
I am preparing a research assignment for my students on this subject.
Looking for suggestions as to names which might be used as search
terms or links to sites that would be appropriate.


and...

I am instructing in a vo-tech system that is run, largely, by academic
types and there are things that we are told to do and ways in which to
do them. This sort of assignment is one of those things.



Just for the heck of it...

Scan around in these newsgroups for a few minutes, and look at the
number of responses, and number of different contributors, that make up
an average thread. Now compare that with the number of responses, and
contributors, that THIS thread has generated in just over two days.

Then do some Google searching, and see if you can find a thread or
two about the origin of letter size drills, or about some of the
machine-tool builders that have gone bankrupt or closed their doors
during the last few years. How much interest did those threads draw,
and from how many different people, and over how many weeks and months?

Then think a minute about what the answers to those questions might
mean, and about how interesting history is to people who already work in
this profession. And, if history is interesting to us, then maybe, just
maybe, it'll be more interesting to your students than you might have
estimated.

If the classes you teach are like most that I'm familiar with, then
it's possible that the members of just a couple small newsgroups have
generated more bytes of typing, and more real thoughts and ideas, and
more honest, sincere debate on this topic, than all of your students put
together will produce from ANY topic in an entire year - even though the
newsgroupies don't have to be here, don't get graded for either
attendance or contribution, and do this only for fun and personal enjoyment.

And if history IS that interesting, then isn't it just possible that
it offers you a way not only to inform and train your students, but also
to draw them into their work and studies, to capture their attention
rather than just hoping for it, to help them WANT to excell in class,
and beyond, for reasons that are entirely their own, and that might make
everything else you teach them just a bit more compelling, and
important, and worth learning?

I get the impression from one of your earlier posts that your heart
isn't really in this, and that you're doing it because you've been told
to. Your students will sense that, of course; and they'll probably
follow your lead.

Lead thoughtfully and carefully, please. There are careers at
stake, and lifetimes that will be spent in factories and machine shops,
and food and homes and security and stability for families that don't
even exist yet. And maybe a great deal more.

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.

  #68   Report Post  
Kirk Gordon
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

Just in case it helps any, you seem to communicate pretty well. And
you've obviously figured out that being a machinist means working with
people, and not just machines. That's excellent.

Don't sweat the oral presentation. In fact, don't bother DOING a
"presentation" at all. Just talk. Just say what you want to say, as if
you were saying it to friend. Enjoy the chance to share what you've
been studying or preparing, and invite everybody else to enjoy it with
you. They will, if you give them a chance.

And stop back here as often as you can. Communication takes
practice too, just like sharpening a drill or running a CAD system.
And, if you don't mind the fact that some of us get crazy and cranky
once in a while, you might just find the group to be a fun place to hang
out.

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.

chem wrote:
I missed the OP about learning other things instead of just the
practical side of machining... I have to throw in my two cents, FWIW.
I'm taking an 8-9 month machining course. In addition to the practical,
hands-on stuff we also have:
-8 full days of CAD - spread out over a month
-half a day of math per week - our book is Mathematics for Machine
Technology, so we're actually learning things we'll be applying in
the shop
-half a day of communications class per week. This is the one that
a lot of the people in our class have trouble realizing the value of.
We've been covering positive attitudes, teamwork, time management,
presentations, and computer skills (email, word processing, etc. CAD
and CNC programming aren't covered in communications). Not really
anything you need to be a good (or even excellent) machinist, but I've
met a few machinists before I started school who would have been easier
to work with if they'd learned a few of those things and followed them.
(I hope it goes without saying - that's not just limited to
machinists... there are difficult people everywhere)
-We also have a machining textbook that we're supposed to work
through and videos to watch. We spend a couple of hours a week of
classroom time on this, working at our own pace.

CAD, math, and the textbook I've been having no troubles with.
Communications class is driving me nuts. I understand the usefulness of
it all, and I appreciate having the chance to learn the things we're
covering. I'm just feeling a bit down on it because I've got an oral
presentation coming up tomorrow.

Yeah, and I wish we'd had a shop program in high school too. Guess it
wouldn't have mattered much for me anyway because I had no idea what a
machine shop even was until i'd been out of high school for a few years.



  #69   Report Post  
Bob Powell
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message et...
"Kirk Gordon" wrote in message
...

Yeah, it's a lie. The beginnings of NC/CNC were done by a couple
guys in a tool shop in Traverse City, Michigan.


That was Parsons Corp., Traverse City. They were producing helicopter-blade
templets with the aid of an IBM 602A Multiplier, calculating positions and
then setting the machine to those positions by hand.

....

Ed and others, thanks for the interesting thread. Like many
innovations there clearly were multiple paths involved. Here are a
few related ones at least worth mention.

The Jaquard looms go back almost 200 years, punch-card controlled
weaving machines. Interesting topic in itself, along with Babbage and
his mechanical computing machines. Side note, you might enjoy Gibson
and Sterling's sci fi book "The Difference Engine".

Few folks in this group under 40 may know what an automatic screw
machine is, how they work or that they go back at least 120 years.
Not that I know more than from reading a book. Bunch of change gears
to set feed rates and cycle timing, and hand-cut cams to cycle through
changes of tools, feeds and stock advance. Net result is loading a
20' bar, then coming back in 20 minutes to empty the bin of whatever
part it just made 300 of. Need a turned length of .750"? Set up
change gears for a cycle that feeds at .010" per rev and cut a cam
that dwells on that cycle for 75 spindle revolutions. Something like
that. Pretty darn close to numerical control. Efficient enough
overall they are still in use all over the world today. The older
Machinery's editions have sections on programming them.

While I know almost nothing about them, some pretty fancy
cam-controlled milling machines were developed either side of WW2.

I'm not arguing that any of this is in any way the equivalent of
direct numerical control, just that it was a long evolution with many
overlapping concepts.

Hydraulic tracers also evolved roughly in parallel with NC and
co-existed for a few decades before becoming "mostly obsolete".
Still used here and there. Tracing goes back around 200 years,
probably to the gunstock duplicating lathes in Whitney's factory that
produced government muskets in the early 1800's.

Hydraulic tracer duplicating mills and lathes were a mid 20th century
innovation, the new concept being the servo mechanism that allow a
stylus to follow a template using very little pressure, while rigidly
controlling a lathe carriage or mill table applying hundreds of pounds
of cutting force.

Tracing and NC were both driven by the need to mass-produce parts
having complex contoured surfaces that could neither be expressed with
simple specifications nor be milled or turned using straight feeds or
specially shaped tooling.

Some of the first practical NC machines were based on hydraulic tracer
machines because the feed control mechanism was so close to what NC
needed.

Bob
  #70   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

In article , Ed Huntress says...

Not a celebrity, but it does make me certifiably old.


Second prize, *two* free cerfications!!

:^)

Jim

==================================================
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==================================================



  #71   Report Post  
Koz
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

And along the same lines, cam operated spring forming machines. Often
very complex programming via specially machined cams. Of course this
has been replaced by CNC spring formers which are more suited to quickly
changing jobs rather than set-ups for long runs.

However, is there really that much difference between holes punched in a
card telling a machine where to go and profiled cams telling a machine
where to go? I guess one may have a mechanical linkage where the other
may have an electrical linkage. Either way, they are both effectively
numerical control.

So where does the line cross to being true NC? Is there a definition of
this point? I remember that my Comp Sci teacher once defined a computer
as being such because it could modify it's own program if needed, rather
than a set of codes that were simply repeated from memory. I wonder if
there is such a (historical) line or point where mechanical becomes
defined as NC becomes CNC?

Koz

Bob Powell wrote:

snip


Few folks in this group under 40 may know what an automatic screw
machine is, how they work or that they go back at least 120 years.
Not that I know more than from reading a book. Bunch of change gears
to set feed rates and cycle timing, and hand-cut cams to cycle through
changes of tools, feeds and stock advance. Net result is loading a
20' bar, then coming back in 20 minutes to empty the bin of whatever
part it just made 300 of. Need a turned length of .750"? Set up
change gears for a cycle that feeds at .010" per rev and cut a cam
that dwells on that cycle for 75 spindle revolutions. Something like
that. Pretty darn close to numerical control. Efficient enough
overall they are still in use all over the world today. The older
Machinery's editions have sections on programming them.

snip
Bob



  #72   Report Post  
Stanley Dornfeld
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

I like your support Kirk.

Good on you!

Stan-

"Kirk Gordon" wrote in message
...
Just in case it helps any, you seem to communicate pretty well. And
you've obviously figured out that being a machinist means working with
people, and not just machines. That's excellent.

Don't sweat the oral presentation. In fact, don't bother DOING a
"presentation" at all. Just talk. Just say what you want to say, as if
you were saying it to friend. Enjoy the chance to share what you've
been studying or preparing, and invite everybody else to enjoy it with
you. They will, if you give them a chance.

And stop back here as often as you can. Communication takes
practice too, just like sharpening a drill or running a CAD system.
And, if you don't mind the fact that some of us get crazy and cranky
once in a while, you might just find the group to be a fun place to hang
out.

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.

chem wrote:
I missed the OP about learning other things instead of just the
practical side of machining... I have to throw in my two cents, FWIW.
I'm taking an 8-9 month machining course. In addition to the practical,
hands-on stuff we also have:
-8 full days of CAD - spread out over a month
-half a day of math per week - our book is Mathematics for Machine
Technology, so we're actually learning things we'll be applying in
the shop
-half a day of communications class per week. This is the one that
a lot of the people in our class have trouble realizing the value of.
We've been covering positive attitudes, teamwork, time management,
presentations, and computer skills (email, word processing, etc. CAD
and CNC programming aren't covered in communications). Not really
anything you need to be a good (or even excellent) machinist, but I've
met a few machinists before I started school who would have been easier
to work with if they'd learned a few of those things and followed them.
(I hope it goes without saying - that's not just limited to
machinists... there are difficult people everywhere)
-We also have a machining textbook that we're supposed to work
through and videos to watch. We spend a couple of hours a week of
classroom time on this, working at our own pace.

CAD, math, and the textbook I've been having no troubles with.
Communications class is driving me nuts. I understand the usefulness of
it all, and I appreciate having the chance to learn the things we're
covering. I'm just feeling a bit down on it because I've got an oral
presentation coming up tomorrow.

Yeah, and I wish we'd had a shop program in high school too. Guess it
wouldn't have mattered much for me anyway because I had no idea what a
machine shop even was until i'd been out of high school for a few years.





  #73   Report Post  
jon banquer
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

Hi,

"-half a day of math per week - our book is Mathematics for
Machine Technology"

Back in 1993 we used the same text. Ours was the third
edition. We never got to Unit 60 Machining Compound-Angular
Surfaces: Computing Angles Of Rotation and Tilt because many
in the class could not keep up and unfortunatly the
Connecticut adult education system leaves a lot to be
desired and teachs to the lowest level.

IMO this book could be a lot better but it's at least a move
in what I consider to be the right direction. I never do
trig that long way like they have you do it in the book.
Much easier for me to look at one of those charts that you
can find in something like a Carr-Lane book.

Lately I have been doing a ton of automotive reading,
downing a 120 page book about every 2 weeks. When I get done
reading what I want to I might just get motivated to do Unit
60. ;)

"but I've met a few machinists before I started school who
would have been easier to work with if they'd learned a few
of those things and followed them."

LOL. You will meet quite a few more. ;)

BTW, what CAD are they using to teach you ?

AutoCAD ?

Enjoyed your post. Hope you stick it out because IMO you do
have the right attitude to make it as a machinist. Have you
decided yet what area of machining you would like to go into ?

jon












"chem" wrote in message
...
I missed the OP about learning other things instead of just the
practical side of machining... I have to throw in my two cents, FWIW.
I'm taking an 8-9 month machining course. In addition to the practical,
hands-on stuff we also have:
-8 full days of CAD - spread out over a month
-half a day of math per week - our book is Mathematics for Machine
Technology, so we're actually learning things we'll be applying in the

shop
-half a day of communications class per week. This is the one that a
lot of the people in our class have trouble realizing the value of.
We've been covering positive attitudes, teamwork, time management,
presentations, and computer skills (email, word processing, etc. CAD
and CNC programming aren't covered in communications). Not really
anything you need to be a good (or even excellent) machinist, but I've
met a few machinists before I started school who would have been easier
to work with if they'd learned a few of those things and followed them.
(I hope it goes without saying - that's not just limited to
machinists... there are difficult people everywhere)
-We also have a machining textbook that we're supposed to work through
and videos to watch. We spend a couple of hours a week of classroom
time on this, working at our own pace.

CAD, math, and the textbook I've been having no troubles with.
Communications class is driving me nuts. I understand the usefulness of
it all, and I appreciate having the chance to learn the things we're
covering. I'm just feeling a bit down on it because I've got an oral
presentation coming up tomorrow.

Yeah, and I wish we'd had a shop program in high school too. Guess it
wouldn't have mattered much for me anyway because I had no idea what a
machine shop even was until i'd been out of high school for a few years.


chem

jon banquer wrote:

that topic could be covered in another class. Maybe make
it part of the english curriculum.



IMO, this would be the right approach. Those interested in
machining attend a english class that has been tailored to
their curriculum.


Just as the math classes should be oriented to machining.



Again, agreed. Wish I had a choice like this when I was in
high school.

Excellent post... almost makes up for your short sighted
anti-union one.

LOL

:)

jon









"john" wrote in message
...

BottleBob wrote:

Errol Groff wrote:

I am preparing a research assignment for my students on this subject.

Errol:

The history of Machine tools seems like it would be a


interesting

subject, BUT... If I were in a limited time machine shop class for the
purpose of increasing my skill level with the hope of becoming an
employable entry level machinist, I think *I'd* (and probably
prospective shop owners might also) be more interested in just HOW to
edge find or indicator sweep my parts rather than knowing WHO designed
the first edge finder, or indicator, or CNC.
Don't take this wrong, I don't mean to be overly critical here,


I'm

just giving you a view from a job-shop productivity standpoint. If I
were interviewing two prospective entry level apprentices I'd be more
inclined to hire the one that showed a knowledge of the practical
application of theory over one that had historical knowledge.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob


Errol,

that topic could be covered in another class. Maybe make it part of the
english curriculum. Just as the math classes should be oriented to
machining. It would make you job easier if you only had to fill their
brains with the actual machine operations.

John





--

www.xanga.com/chemgurl






  #74   Report Post  
john
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

Ed Huntress wrote:

"john" wrote in message
...
Kirk Gordon wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

That's pretty much it. It should be pointed out that it was controlled

by a
computer, not by a simple logic controller, so it was also the first

CNC
machine.

Really? Are you sure? I didn't know that!

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.



I think that was done with punch cards, one for each move. There was no
memory storage as we know it today.Memory was limited by the number to
tubes in the control. One tube for each two bits of data. They did
have mechanical relays the were used. Think pin ball machines.


John


No, I don't think so, John. What you're describing sounds like some of the
commercial machines that came out in the mid-'50s, like the J&L Binotrol,
and the G&L Numericord.

I don't have access to the old reports anymore, but the MIT machine was
described as a computer-controlled machine. It had a vacuum-tube computer
controlling it. I don't recall if I ever read just what the functions of the
computer were.

Ed Huntress



Ed

I just found this site which goes into Parsons and MIT.

http://www.control.com/949951573/index_html


John
  #75   Report Post  
john
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

Ed Huntress wrote:

"john" wrote in message
...
Kirk Gordon wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

That's pretty much it. It should be pointed out that it was controlled

by a
computer, not by a simple logic controller, so it was also the first

CNC
machine.

Really? Are you sure? I didn't know that!

KG
--
I'm sick of spam.
The 2 in my address doesn't belong there.



I think that was done with punch cards, one for each move. There was no
memory storage as we know it today.Memory was limited by the number to
tubes in the control. One tube for each two bits of data. They did
have mechanical relays the were used. Think pin ball machines.


John


No, I don't think so, John. What you're describing sounds like some of the
commercial machines that came out in the mid-'50s, like the J&L Binotrol,
and the G&L Numericord.

I don't have access to the old reports anymore, but the MIT machine was
described as a computer-controlled machine. It had a vacuum-tube computer
controlling it. I don't recall if I ever read just what the functions of the
computer were.

Ed Huntress




and this site

http://www.tadesite.com/parsons.mgi


John


  #76   Report Post  
jon banquer
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

As for Battleboob's concerns, perhaps if they researched
the *ideas* behind revolutionary machine tools instead of
the boring/useless 'who when where' aspect of it ? I am
continually amazed by the number of 'CNC machinists' who
don't have a clue about basic machining functions and
processes.


Ever consider that because the future of machining in the U.S.
is so dim that studying the past feels much better than studying
what's current ???


jon








"Excitable Boy" wrote in message
om...
Ned Simmons wrote in message

...

Giddings & Lewis claims they were first in this company
history.

http://www.glcastings.com/ne/basenav/dateline.asp



Jesus Christ, now G&L's joined the Liars' Club :-(
It's documented all over the place; M.I.T. and John
Parsons built the first functional NC machine. It ran
in 1952. I even have a jpeg (somewhere) of an ashtray
made on the thing. It used a Cincinnati Hydrotel for
the base machine. Parsons-Bendix-Dynapath-Autocon was
the first maker of ANY nc control. All this is discussed
in any of the early books on NC ... you don't have any
of those ?

As for Battleboob's concerns, perhaps if they researched
the *ideas* behind revolutionary machine tools instead of
the boring/useless 'who when where' aspect of it ? I am
continually amazed by the number of 'CNC machinists' who
don't have a clue about basic machining functions and
processes.



  #77   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

"Bob Powell" wrote in message
om...

Few folks in this group under 40 may know what an automatic screw
machine is, how they work or that they go back at least 120 years.
Not that I know more than from reading a book. Bunch of change gears
to set feed rates and cycle timing, and hand-cut cams to cycle through
changes of tools, feeds and stock advance. Net result is loading a
20' bar, then coming back in 20 minutes to empty the bin of whatever
part it just made 300 of. Need a turned length of .750"? Set up
change gears for a cycle that feeds at .010" per rev and cut a cam
that dwells on that cycle for 75 spindle revolutions. Something like
that. Pretty darn close to numerical control. Efficient enough
overall they are still in use all over the world today. The older
Machinery's editions have sections on programming them.


Haha! Ask Dave ("Why"). He still runs them. Belt-driven ones, at that. g

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)


  #78   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

"Koz" wrote in message
...

However, is there really that much difference between holes punched in a
card telling a machine where to go and profiled cams telling a machine
where to go? I guess one may have a mechanical linkage where the other
may have an electrical linkage. Either way, they are both effectively
numerical control.


Cams give you automatic control, but not numerical positioning instructions.
They're a kind of proportional control, as opposed to numerical control.

The big difference, and the line of demarcation, is between control systems
that are numerically programmable, or programmable with a discrete set of
symbols or numbers, and those that require making a proportional-control
pattern or model.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)


  #79   Report Post  
Excitable Boy
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

"Stanley Dornfeld" wrote in message ...

That sounds like a good course Chem.

Best of luck to you.



Could you guys maybe learn something ELSE new ? Such as
how to snip the 180 lines of nothingness when all you
want to do is say, "Best wishes ! hi to Mom and the kids !"

It's NOT that hard. Really, it isn't.
  #80   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default History of Machine Tools

In article , Ed Huntress says...

The big difference, and the line of demarcation, is between control systems
that are numerically programmable, or programmable with a discrete set of
symbols or numbers, and those that require making a proportional-control
pattern or model.


Right, the paper tapes are real programs, the punches denote
ones and zeros, I think they're either ascii or G code.
G code = excess grey?

Jim

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