Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that hard
drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally ready to
show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Sincerely.
Ken.

--
Volunteer your idle computer time for cancer research
http//www.grid.org/download/gold/download.htm

Ken Davey wrote:
Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that hard
drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally ready to
show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Neat work, Ken. I hope it works well. Certainly looks like it should.

Chris

Christopher Tidy wrote:
Ken Davey wrote:
Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that
hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally
ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Neat work, Ken. I hope it works well. Certainly looks like it should.

Chris

I have had it up around 20,000 rpm. (on 100 psi. air) and it really ran
smooth.

Ken.

Very clever! What fluid are you going to use to drive the turbine? Air,
I hope. As I recall the usual magnetic coating is not water proof and
the aluminum plates don't like moisture. I think newer drives use
polished glass plates.

I love it when someone is able to put trash to a good use!

When you get ready to scale the turbine up a bit, I have several 10mb
14"-16" disks from an old DEC computer. I am not sure if I have any
hubs or not.

Paul

Ken Davey wrote:
Christopher Tidy wrote:

Ken Davey wrote:

Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that
hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally
ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Neat work, Ken. I hope it works well. Certainly looks like it should.

Chris


I have had it up around 20,000 rpm. (on 100 psi. air) and it really ran
smooth.

Ken.

So it's just the drag caused by forcing air through the gaps between
discs which causes the turbine to rotate? How loud is it at 20,000 rpm?

Chris

Christopher Tidy wrote:
Ken Davey wrote:
Christopher Tidy wrote:

Ken Davey wrote:

Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that
hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally
ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Neat work, Ken. I hope it works well. Certainly looks like it
should. Chris


I have had it up around 20,000 rpm. (on 100 psi. air) and it really
ran smooth.

Ken.

So it's just the drag caused by forcing air through the gaps between
discs which causes the turbine to rotate? How loud is it at 20,000
rpm?
Chris
Inaudible at twenty feet or so - really quiet.

Ken.

Ken Davey wrote:
Christopher Tidy wrote:

Ken Davey wrote:

Christopher Tidy wrote:


Ken Davey wrote:


Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that
hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally
ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Neat work, Ken. I hope it works well. Certainly looks like it
should. Chris


I have had it up around 20,000 rpm. (on 100 psi. air) and it really
ran smooth.

Ken.

So it's just the drag caused by forcing air through the gaps between
discs which causes the turbine to rotate? How loud is it at 20,000
rpm?
Chris

Inaudible at twenty feet or so - really quiet.

Ken.

Neat. Are you going to use it to power something, or is it just a
demonstration?

Chris

Ken Davey wrote:

Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Nice thing! Keep us informed.

Thanks,
Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de

Christopher Tidy wrote:
Ken Davey wrote:
Christopher Tidy wrote:

Ken Davey wrote:

Christopher Tidy wrote:


Ken Davey wrote:


Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing,
that hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am
finally ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Neat work, Ken. I hope it works well. Certainly looks like it
should. Chris


I have had it up around 20,000 rpm. (on 100 psi. air) and it really
ran smooth.

Ken.

So it's just the drag caused by forcing air through the gaps between
discs which causes the turbine to rotate? How loud is it at 20,000
rpm?
Chris

Inaudible at twenty feet or so - really quiet.

Ken.

Neat. Are you going to use it to power something, or is it just a
demonstration?

Chris

Essentially it is just a model but.....
The output end of the shaft is a duplicate of the shaft on my Dumore tool
post grinder so those attachments can be used on the turbine.
I am sure there are going to be many practical uses for it.

Ken.

Ken Davey wrote:
Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that hard
drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally ready to
show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Way excellent, Ken.

Please post again when you have performance and efficiency curves.

--Winston

Winston wrote:
Ken Davey wrote:
Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that
hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally
ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Way excellent, Ken.

Please post again when you have performance and efficiency curves.

--Winston

Chuckle.
Performance and efficiency - two words that are seldom heard in my shop.
I am sitting here watching hurricane force winds rip up the ocean in front
of the house.
Starting to pack up the shop for the winter.
Gallons of LPS3 and all that.
In a couple of weeks I am off to my 'alternate' home in Honduras so not much
more will happen here until spring.
At that time I will set about building the instrumentation I dreamed up over
the winter.

Regards.
Ken.

In article ,
Winston wrote:

Ken Davey wrote:
Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that hard
drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally ready to
show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Way excellent, Ken.

Please post again when you have performance and efficiency curves.

Indeed! This definitely ranks as one of the niftier hacks I've seen.
Can't wait to hear about power output and the rest of the details.

As a side note, this has inspired me to start looking at that scrap 3'
chunk of 14"x8" "engineered wood" main beam from the house as a
potential housing for a many-many-more disks on an even longer shaft
version done in a wood case. If I've properly understood what I've read
about TTs, it would seem to me that increasing disc count can do one
thing, and one thing only: Increase output torque. (Yes, Virginia, I'm
certain there's an upper limit of how much fluid you need to feed it to
get it spun up)

Ponders a compressed-air chainsaw where the chain going through the
wood drowns out the engine noise

I know, I know, I'm a heretic, working in wood... But hey! The material
is there, and at this moment, it's considered something to be hauled to
the dump! Chopping it up and making one of these gizmos out of it would
only be enhancing its value!

Ken:
Love the milled spiders - The spooky part is I keep glancing at the
stack of them that's visible in the other window and seeing spiders for
45 RPM records

Suggestion for improvement if there's a "next version" in your shop:
I've done some reading on these little beasties, and they, like so many
other nifty gadgets that Ol' Nick came up with, intrigue me. One of the
things I've learned from that reading is something that you mention on
your page - one of the key things is putting the drive fluid to the
rotor-bank at as close to a perfect tangent as possible, and *WITH AS
LITTLE TURBULENCE AS POSSIBLE*. (Emphasis mine)

Now, your manifold bar/nozzle bar setup is an excellent idea, but I
think I see a flaw in it that's quite likely to be putting extra
turbulence in the fluid path, but could be tuned up pretty easily, with
potentially significant improvement over the excellent-sounding (so far
- I'm waiting for the torque figures ) performance with what I think
would be only a slight alteration of what you've already got.

It isn't clear for sure from your commentary what, if any, kind of plans
you might have for maybe producing/selling this neat little widget
(which doesn't even consider whether there's an exploitable market for
it if you want to try), so do you want me to talk about the idea I've
got "in public", or would you prefer to go to email or some other
medium?

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
Winston wrote:

Ken Davey wrote:
Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that
hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally
ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Way excellent, Ken.

Please post again when you have performance and efficiency curves.

Indeed! This definitely ranks as one of the niftier hacks I've seen.
Can't wait to hear about power output and the rest of the details.

As a side note, this has inspired me to start looking at that scrap 3'
chunk of 14"x8" "engineered wood" main beam from the house as a
potential housing for a many-many-more disks on an even longer shaft
version done in a wood case. If I've properly understood what I've
read
about TTs, it would seem to me that increasing disc count can do one
thing, and one thing only: Increase output torque. (Yes, Virginia, I'm
certain there's an upper limit of how much fluid you need to feed it
to
get it spun up)

Ponders a compressed-air chainsaw where the chain going through the
wood drowns out the engine noise

I know, I know, I'm a heretic, working in wood... But hey! The
material
is there, and at this moment, it's considered something to be hauled
to
the dump! Chopping it up and making one of these gizmos out of it
would
only be enhancing its value!

Ken:
Love the milled spiders - The spooky part is I keep glancing at the
stack of them that's visible in the other window and seeing spiders
for 45 RPM records

Suggestion for improvement if there's a "next version" in your shop:
I've done some reading on these little beasties, and they, like so
many
other nifty gadgets that Ol' Nick came up with, intrigue me. One of
the things I've learned from that reading is something that you
mention on
your page - one of the key things is putting the drive fluid to the
rotor-bank at as close to a perfect tangent as possible, and *WITH AS
LITTLE TURBULENCE AS POSSIBLE*. (Emphasis mine)

Now, your manifold bar/nozzle bar setup is an excellent idea, but I
think I see a flaw in it that's quite likely to be putting extra
turbulence in the fluid path, but could be tuned up pretty easily,
with potentially significant improvement over the excellent-sounding
(so far - I'm waiting for the torque figures ) performance with
what I think
would be only a slight alteration of what you've already got.

It isn't clear for sure from your commentary what, if any, kind of
plans
you might have for maybe producing/selling this neat little widget
(which doesn't even consider whether there's an exploitable market for
it if you want to try), so do you want me to talk about the idea I've
got "in public", or would you prefer to go to email or some other
medium?

Let's keep it all in public - that's what this group is all about eh?
I present the idea and my version in the hopes that someone will (and I just
know they will) come up with something better.
Your comment about 'as little turbulence as possible' is right on the money.

Regards.
Ken.

Winston sez: " Please post again when you have performance and efficiency
curves."

Not liable to happen. How are you going to test the efficiency of a heat
engine -- on air?

Bob Swinney

"Winston" wrote in message
...
Ken Davey wrote:
Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that hard
drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally ready
to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Way excellent, Ken.


--Winston

Robert Swinney wrote:
Winston sez: " Please post again when you have performance and
efficiency curves."

Not liable to happen. How are you going to test the efficiency of a
heat engine -- on air?

You trying to start something? )

Ken.

Bob Swinney

"Winston" wrote in message
...
Ken Davey wrote:
Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that
hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally
ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Way excellent, Ken.


--Winston

In article ,
"Ken Davey" wrote:

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
Winston wrote:

Ken Davey wrote:
Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that
hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally
ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Way excellent, Ken.

Please post again when you have performance and efficiency curves.

Indeed! This definitely ranks as one of the niftier hacks I've seen.
Can't wait to hear about power output and the rest of the details.

As a side note, this has inspired me to start looking at that scrap 3'
chunk of 14"x8" "engineered wood" main beam from the house as a
potential housing for a many-many-more disks on an even longer shaft
version done in a wood case. If I've properly understood what I've
read
about TTs, it would seem to me that increasing disc count can do one
thing, and one thing only: Increase output torque. (Yes, Virginia, I'm
certain there's an upper limit of how much fluid you need to feed it
to
get it spun up)

Ponders a compressed-air chainsaw where the chain going through the
wood drowns out the engine noise

I know, I know, I'm a heretic, working in wood... But hey! The
material
is there, and at this moment, it's considered something to be hauled
to
the dump! Chopping it up and making one of these gizmos out of it
would
only be enhancing its value!

Ken:
Love the milled spiders - The spooky part is I keep glancing at the
stack of them that's visible in the other window and seeing spiders
for 45 RPM records

Suggestion for improvement if there's a "next version" in your shop:
I've done some reading on these little beasties, and they, like so
many
other nifty gadgets that Ol' Nick came up with, intrigue me. One of
the things I've learned from that reading is something that you
mention on
your page - one of the key things is putting the drive fluid to the
rotor-bank at as close to a perfect tangent as possible, and *WITH AS
LITTLE TURBULENCE AS POSSIBLE*. (Emphasis mine)

Now, your manifold bar/nozzle bar setup is an excellent idea, but I
think I see a flaw in it that's quite likely to be putting extra
turbulence in the fluid path, but could be tuned up pretty easily,
with potentially significant improvement over the excellent-sounding
(so far - I'm waiting for the torque figures ) performance with
what I think
would be only a slight alteration of what you've already got.

It isn't clear for sure from your commentary what, if any, kind of
plans
you might have for maybe producing/selling this neat little widget
(which doesn't even consider whether there's an exploitable market for
it if you want to try), so do you want me to talk about the idea I've
got "in public", or would you prefer to go to email or some other
medium?

Let's keep it all in public - that's what this group is all about eh?
I present the idea and my version in the hopes that someone will (and I just
know they will) come up with something better.
Your comment about 'as little turbulence as possible' is right on the money.

Regards.
Ken.



Hokay, then... Here we go!
Looking at http://www.rupert.net/~solar/Case.jpg I see a 180 degree
turn in the fluid path. Even if you point the brass fitting the other
way, you're still going to be turning two 90s between the supply hookup
and the nozzle opening. Replacing it with a straight fitting is still
going to leave the 90 of going through the manifold bar and coming out
into the gap formed by the nozzle bar. The distance traveled after that
last 90 can't possibly be anywhere near enough for that much turbulence
to "settle out" before hitting the rotors.

Proposed fix/improvement:
Add another plate, suitably drilled and tapped to accept a (preferably
straight) fitting - Place it on the left side of the case as it's shown
in the image noted, then lift the manifold bar and the left piece of the
nozzle bar, and finish milling the "slot" on the top of the nozzle bar
all the way to the leftmost edge of the current case before reassembling
it. The new plate for the left side should be drilled and tapped in the
right position to give the drive fluid a straight flow from source to
rotor-bank, which should give a serious decrease in turbulence compared
to the two right-angle turns you've currently got.

Or am I completely off my rocker?

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

Then add a chamber on the left side and some fins in the channel to
straighten out the flow.

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"Ken Davey" wrote:


Don Bruder wrote:

In article ,
Winston wrote:


Ken Davey wrote:

Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that
hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally
ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Way excellent, Ken.

Please post again when you have performance and efficiency curves.

Indeed! This definitely ranks as one of the niftier hacks I've seen.
Can't wait to hear about power output and the rest of the details.

As a side note, this has inspired me to start looking at that scrap 3'
chunk of 14"x8" "engineered wood" main beam from the house as a
potential housing for a many-many-more disks on an even longer shaft
version done in a wood case. If I've properly understood what I've
read
about TTs, it would seem to me that increasing disc count can do one
thing, and one thing only: Increase output torque. (Yes, Virginia, I'm
certain there's an upper limit of how much fluid you need to feed it
to
get it spun up)

Ponders a compressed-air chainsaw where the chain going through the
wood drowns out the engine noise

I know, I know, I'm a heretic, working in wood... But hey! The
material
is there, and at this moment, it's considered something to be hauled
to
the dump! Chopping it up and making one of these gizmos out of it
would
only be enhancing its value!

Ken:
Love the milled spiders - The spooky part is I keep glancing at the
stack of them that's visible in the other window and seeing spiders
for 45 RPM records

Suggestion for improvement if there's a "next version" in your shop:
I've done some reading on these little beasties, and they, like so
many
other nifty gadgets that Ol' Nick came up with, intrigue me. One of
the things I've learned from that reading is something that you
mention on
your page - one of the key things is putting the drive fluid to the
rotor-bank at as close to a perfect tangent as possible, and *WITH AS
LITTLE TURBULENCE AS POSSIBLE*. (Emphasis mine)

Now, your manifold bar/nozzle bar setup is an excellent idea, but I
think I see a flaw in it that's quite likely to be putting extra
turbulence in the fluid path, but could be tuned up pretty easily,
with potentially significant improvement over the excellent-sounding
(so far - I'm waiting for the torque figures ) performance with
what I think
would be only a slight alteration of what you've already got.

It isn't clear for sure from your commentary what, if any, kind of
plans
you might have for maybe producing/selling this neat little widget
(which doesn't even consider whether there's an exploitable market for
it if you want to try), so do you want me to talk about the idea I've
got "in public", or would you prefer to go to email or some other
medium?

Let's keep it all in public - that's what this group is all about eh?
I present the idea and my version in the hopes that someone will (and I just
know they will) come up with something better.
Your comment about 'as little turbulence as possible' is right on the money.

Regards.
Ken.




Hokay, then... Here we go!
Looking at http://www.rupert.net/~solar/Case.jpg I see a 180 degree
turn in the fluid path. Even if you point the brass fitting the other
way, you're still going to be turning two 90s between the supply hookup
and the nozzle opening. Replacing it with a straight fitting is still
going to leave the 90 of going through the manifold bar and coming out
into the gap formed by the nozzle bar. The distance traveled after that
last 90 can't possibly be anywhere near enough for that much turbulence
to "settle out" before hitting the rotors.

Proposed fix/improvement:
Add another plate, suitably drilled and tapped to accept a (preferably
straight) fitting - Place it on the left side of the case as it's shown
in the image noted, then lift the manifold bar and the left piece of the
nozzle bar, and finish milling the "slot" on the top of the nozzle bar
all the way to the leftmost edge of the current case before reassembling
it. The new plate for the left side should be drilled and tapped in the
right position to give the drive fluid a straight flow from source to
rotor-bank, which should give a serious decrease in turbulence compared
to the two right-angle turns you've currently got.

Or am I completely off my rocker?

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"Ken Davey" wrote:

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
Winston wrote:

Ken Davey wrote:
Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing,
that hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally
ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Way excellent, Ken.

Please post again when you have performance and efficiency curves.

Indeed! This definitely ranks as one of the niftier hacks I've seen.
Can't wait to hear about power output and the rest of the details.

As a side note, this has inspired me to start looking at that scrap
3' chunk of 14"x8" "engineered wood" main beam from the house as a
potential housing for a many-many-more disks on an even longer shaft
version done in a wood case. If I've properly understood what I've
read
about TTs, it would seem to me that increasing disc count can do one
thing, and one thing only: Increase output torque. (Yes, Virginia,
I'm certain there's an upper limit of how much fluid you need to
feed it
to
get it spun up)

Ponders a compressed-air chainsaw where the chain going through the
wood drowns out the engine noise

I know, I know, I'm a heretic, working in wood... But hey! The
material
is there, and at this moment, it's considered something to be hauled
to
the dump! Chopping it up and making one of these gizmos out of it
would
only be enhancing its value!

Ken:
Love the milled spiders - The spooky part is I keep glancing at the
stack of them that's visible in the other window and seeing spiders
for 45 RPM records

Suggestion for improvement if there's a "next version" in your shop:
I've done some reading on these little beasties, and they, like so
many
other nifty gadgets that Ol' Nick came up with, intrigue me. One of
the things I've learned from that reading is something that you
mention on
your page - one of the key things is putting the drive fluid to the
rotor-bank at as close to a perfect tangent as possible, and *WITH
AS LITTLE TURBULENCE AS POSSIBLE*. (Emphasis mine)

Now, your manifold bar/nozzle bar setup is an excellent idea, but I
think I see a flaw in it that's quite likely to be putting extra
turbulence in the fluid path, but could be tuned up pretty easily,
with potentially significant improvement over the excellent-sounding
(so far - I'm waiting for the torque figures ) performance with
what I think
would be only a slight alteration of what you've already got.

It isn't clear for sure from your commentary what, if any, kind of
plans
you might have for maybe producing/selling this neat little widget
(which doesn't even consider whether there's an exploitable market
for
it if you want to try), so do you want me to talk about the idea
I've
got "in public", or would you prefer to go to email or some other
medium?

Let's keep it all in public - that's what this group is all about eh?
I present the idea and my version in the hopes that someone will
(and I just know they will) come up with something better.
Your comment about 'as little turbulence as possible' is right on
the money.

Regards.
Ken.



Hokay, then... Here we go!
Looking at http://www.rupert.net/~solar/Case.jpg I see a 180 degree
turn in the fluid path. Even if you point the brass fitting the other
way, you're still going to be turning two 90s between the supply
hookup
and the nozzle opening. Replacing it with a straight fitting is still
going to leave the 90 of going through the manifold bar and coming out
into the gap formed by the nozzle bar. The distance traveled after
that
last 90 can't possibly be anywhere near enough for that much
turbulence
to "settle out" before hitting the rotors.

Proposed fix/improvement:
Add another plate, suitably drilled and tapped to accept a (preferably
straight) fitting - Place it on the left side of the case as it's
shown
in the image noted, then lift the manifold bar and the left piece of
the nozzle bar, and finish milling the "slot" on the top of the
nozzle bar
all the way to the leftmost edge of the current case before
reassembling
it. The new plate for the left side should be drilled and tapped in
the right position to give the drive fluid a straight flow from
source to rotor-bank, which should give a serious decrease in
turbulence compared
to the two right-angle turns you've currently got.

Or am I completely off my rocker?

That should work to some extent.
The idea goes into the "going further" file.

Ken.

In article et,
RoyJ wrote:

Then add a chamber on the left side and some fins in the channel to
straighten out the flow.

I think that would likely be counterproductive - *ANYTHING* standing in
the fluid path is going to build turbulence, including fins. (unless you
manage to stumble onto the secret of getting true laminar flow over an
object in a fluid stream - in which case, you can hire somebody to
design a "perfect" nozzle for you, since you're already a rich man from
what the military is paying you for your anti-turbulence design. )

The goal in this case is to keep turbulence to an absolute minimum in
order to maximize the coupling of the fluid to the rotors, so fin (or
anything else in the stream) generated turbulence is a Bad ThingTM.


Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"Ken Davey" wrote:


Don Bruder wrote:

In article ,
Winston wrote:


Ken Davey wrote:

Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that
hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally
ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Way excellent, Ken.

Please post again when you have performance and efficiency curves.

Indeed! This definitely ranks as one of the niftier hacks I've seen.
Can't wait to hear about power output and the rest of the details.

As a side note, this has inspired me to start looking at that scrap 3'
chunk of 14"x8" "engineered wood" main beam from the house as a
potential housing for a many-many-more disks on an even longer shaft
version done in a wood case. If I've properly understood what I've
read
about TTs, it would seem to me that increasing disc count can do one
thing, and one thing only: Increase output torque. (Yes, Virginia, I'm
certain there's an upper limit of how much fluid you need to feed it
to
get it spun up)

Ponders a compressed-air chainsaw where the chain going through the
wood drowns out the engine noise

I know, I know, I'm a heretic, working in wood... But hey! The
material
is there, and at this moment, it's considered something to be hauled
to
the dump! Chopping it up and making one of these gizmos out of it
would
only be enhancing its value!

Ken:
Love the milled spiders - The spooky part is I keep glancing at the
stack of them that's visible in the other window and seeing spiders
for 45 RPM records

Suggestion for improvement if there's a "next version" in your shop:
I've done some reading on these little beasties, and they, like so
many
other nifty gadgets that Ol' Nick came up with, intrigue me. One of
the things I've learned from that reading is something that you
mention on
your page - one of the key things is putting the drive fluid to the
rotor-bank at as close to a perfect tangent as possible, and *WITH AS
LITTLE TURBULENCE AS POSSIBLE*. (Emphasis mine)

Now, your manifold bar/nozzle bar setup is an excellent idea, but I
think I see a flaw in it that's quite likely to be putting extra
turbulence in the fluid path, but could be tuned up pretty easily,
with potentially significant improvement over the excellent-sounding
(so far - I'm waiting for the torque figures ) performance with
what I think
would be only a slight alteration of what you've already got.

It isn't clear for sure from your commentary what, if any, kind of
plans
you might have for maybe producing/selling this neat little widget
(which doesn't even consider whether there's an exploitable market for
it if you want to try), so do you want me to talk about the idea I've
got "in public", or would you prefer to go to email or some other
medium?

Let's keep it all in public - that's what this group is all about eh?
I present the idea and my version in the hopes that someone will (and I
just
know they will) come up with something better.
Your comment about 'as little turbulence as possible' is right on the
money.

Regards.
Ken.




Hokay, then... Here we go!
Looking at http://www.rupert.net/~solar/Case.jpg I see a 180 degree
turn in the fluid path. Even if you point the brass fitting the other
way, you're still going to be turning two 90s between the supply hookup
and the nozzle opening. Replacing it with a straight fitting is still
going to leave the 90 of going through the manifold bar and coming out
into the gap formed by the nozzle bar. The distance traveled after that
last 90 can't possibly be anywhere near enough for that much turbulence
to "settle out" before hitting the rotors.

Proposed fix/improvement:
Add another plate, suitably drilled and tapped to accept a (preferably
straight) fitting - Place it on the left side of the case as it's shown
in the image noted, then lift the manifold bar and the left piece of the
nozzle bar, and finish milling the "slot" on the top of the nozzle bar
all the way to the leftmost edge of the current case before reassembling
it. The new plate for the left side should be drilled and tapped in the
right position to give the drive fluid a straight flow from source to
rotor-bank, which should give a serious decrease in turbulence compared
to the two right-angle turns you've currently got.

Or am I completely off my rocker?


--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

RoyJ wrote:
Then add a chamber on the left side and some fins in the channel to
straighten out the flow.

I thought of that (the fins) but at one point I had to shoot the engineer
(me) and go with what I had.

Ken.

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"Ken Davey" wrote:


Don Bruder wrote:

In article ,
Winston wrote:


Ken Davey wrote:

Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing,
that hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am
finally ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Way excellent, Ken.

Please post again when you have performance and efficiency curves.

Indeed! This definitely ranks as one of the niftier hacks I've
seen. Can't wait to hear about power output and the rest of the
details.

As a side note, this has inspired me to start looking at that
scrap 3' chunk of 14"x8" "engineered wood" main beam from the
house as a potential housing for a many-many-more disks on an even
longer
shaft version done in a wood case. If I've properly understood
what I've read
about TTs, it would seem to me that increasing disc count can do
one thing, and one thing only: Increase output torque. (Yes,
Virginia, I'm certain there's an upper limit of how much fluid you
need to feed it to
get it spun up)

Ponders a compressed-air chainsaw where the chain going through
the wood drowns out the engine noise

I know, I know, I'm a heretic, working in wood... But hey! The
material
is there, and at this moment, it's considered something to be
hauled to
the dump! Chopping it up and making one of these gizmos out of it
would
only be enhancing its value!

Ken:
Love the milled spiders - The spooky part is I keep glancing at the
stack of them that's visible in the other window and seeing spiders
for 45 RPM records

Suggestion for improvement if there's a "next version" in your
shop: I've done some reading on these little beasties, and they, like
so
many
other nifty gadgets that Ol' Nick came up with, intrigue me. One
of the things I've learned from that reading is something that you
mention on
your page - one of the key things is putting the drive fluid to the
rotor-bank at as close to a perfect tangent as possible, and *WITH
AS LITTLE TURBULENCE AS POSSIBLE*. (Emphasis mine)

Now, your manifold bar/nozzle bar setup is an excellent idea, but I
think I see a flaw in it that's quite likely to be putting extra
turbulence in the fluid path, but could be tuned up pretty easily,
with potentially significant improvement over the
excellent-sounding (so far - I'm waiting for the torque figures
) performance with what I think
would be only a slight alteration of what you've already got.

It isn't clear for sure from your commentary what, if any, kind of
plans
you might have for maybe producing/selling this neat little widget
(which doesn't even consider whether there's an exploitable market
for it if you want to try), so do you want me to talk about the idea
I've got "in public", or would you prefer to go to email or some other
medium?

Let's keep it all in public - that's what this group is all about
eh? I present the idea and my version in the hopes that someone will
(and I just know they will) come up with something better.
Your comment about 'as little turbulence as possible' is right on
the money. Regards.
Ken.




Hokay, then... Here we go!
Looking at http://www.rupert.net/~solar/Case.jpg I see a 180 degree
turn in the fluid path. Even if you point the brass fitting the other
way, you're still going to be turning two 90s between the supply
hookup and the nozzle opening. Replacing it with a straight fitting is
still
going to leave the 90 of going through the manifold bar and coming
out into the gap formed by the nozzle bar. The distance traveled after
that last 90 can't possibly be anywhere near enough for that much
turbulence to "settle out" before hitting the rotors.

Proposed fix/improvement:
Add another plate, suitably drilled and tapped to accept a
(preferably straight) fitting - Place it on the left side of the
case as it's shown in the image noted, then lift the manifold bar and the
left piece of
the nozzle bar, and finish milling the "slot" on the top of the
nozzle bar all the way to the leftmost edge of the current case before
reassembling it. The new plate for the left side should be drilled
and tapped in the right position to give the drive fluid a straight
flow from source to rotor-bank, which should give a serious decrease
in turbulence compared to the two right-angle turns you've currently got.

Or am I completely off my rocker?

Robert Swinney wrote:
Winston sez: " Please post again when you have performance and efficiency
curves."

Not liable to happen. How are you going to test the efficiency of a heat
engine -- on air?

(Please forgive the nonsensical units with which I was crippled as a youth.
The following is all probably in gross error, but it's interesting.)

The back of the envelope says that air has a mass of about 20.7 ounces per
cubic foot after it is compressed to 100 PSIG. An 80 cu ft cylinder could
contain air massing 1656 oz.

If you exhausted that mass through a 100 percent efficient TT at sea level
in one second, you would expect to see about 140 watt-seconds of energy
converted from compressed air into work at the shaft end.

(Thought experiment: TT has 24" diameter rotor. 1.29 lbs of force placed
at the circumference for a torque of 1.29 lb. ft. at the shaft. That
torque, for one second is about 1/426 horsepower or 1.749 watt.)
At 1.749 watt seconds per cubic foot, an 80 cubic foot cylinder should
contain about 139.9 watt seconds of energy if it were initially at
100 PSIG. Clearly I am assuming a massless rotor and no loss incurred
in the process of measuring the power!)

So if you measured, say 70 watt - seconds of energy at the shaft, you
could peg the efficiency of the TT at 50%.

Physics majors, are these *anywhere near* the real numbers?

--Winston

It's common to put some sort of chamber followed by a set of fins or
other lattice. The chamber allows the pressure to equalize over the
entire surface of the flow channel and allow even distribution of the
fluid across the entire cross section, the fins straighten out the flow,
dampen the turbulance. Granted, the fins need to be straight and THIN.

Don Bruder wrote:
In article et,
RoyJ wrote:


Then add a chamber on the left side and some fins in the channel to
straighten out the flow.


I think that would likely be counterproductive - *ANYTHING* standing in
the fluid path is going to build turbulence, including fins. (unless you
manage to stumble onto the secret of getting true laminar flow over an
object in a fluid stream - in which case, you can hire somebody to
design a "perfect" nozzle for you, since you're already a rich man from
what the military is paying you for your anti-turbulence design. )

The goal in this case is to keep turbulence to an absolute minimum in
order to maximize the coupling of the fluid to the rotors, so fin (or
anything else in the stream) generated turbulence is a Bad ThingTM.


Don Bruder wrote:

In article ,
"Ken Davey" wrote:



Don Bruder wrote:


In article ,
Winston wrote:



Ken Davey wrote:


Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that
hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally
ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Way excellent, Ken.

Please post again when you have performance and efficiency curves.

Indeed! This definitely ranks as one of the niftier hacks I've seen.
Can't wait to hear about power output and the rest of the details.

As a side note, this has inspired me to start looking at that scrap 3'
chunk of 14"x8" "engineered wood" main beam from the house as a
potential housing for a many-many-more disks on an even longer shaft
version done in a wood case. If I've properly understood what I've
read
about TTs, it would seem to me that increasing disc count can do one
thing, and one thing only: Increase output torque. (Yes, Virginia, I'm
certain there's an upper limit of how much fluid you need to feed it
to
get it spun up)

Ponders a compressed-air chainsaw where the chain going through the
wood drowns out the engine noise

I know, I know, I'm a heretic, working in wood... But hey! The
material
is there, and at this moment, it's considered something to be hauled
to
the dump! Chopping it up and making one of these gizmos out of it
would
only be enhancing its value!

Ken:
Love the milled spiders - The spooky part is I keep glancing at the
stack of them that's visible in the other window and seeing spiders
for 45 RPM records

Suggestion for improvement if there's a "next version" in your shop:
I've done some reading on these little beasties, and they, like so
many
other nifty gadgets that Ol' Nick came up with, intrigue me. One of
the things I've learned from that reading is something that you
mention on
your page - one of the key things is putting the drive fluid to the
rotor-bank at as close to a perfect tangent as possible, and *WITH AS
LITTLE TURBULENCE AS POSSIBLE*. (Emphasis mine)

Now, your manifold bar/nozzle bar setup is an excellent idea, but I
think I see a flaw in it that's quite likely to be putting extra
turbulence in the fluid path, but could be tuned up pretty easily,
with potentially significant improvement over the excellent-sounding
(so far - I'm waiting for the torque figures ) performance with
what I think
would be only a slight alteration of what you've already got.

It isn't clear for sure from your commentary what, if any, kind of
plans
you might have for maybe producing/selling this neat little widget
(which doesn't even consider whether there's an exploitable market for
it if you want to try), so do you want me to talk about the idea I've
got "in public", or would you prefer to go to email or some other
medium?

Let's keep it all in public - that's what this group is all about eh?
I present the idea and my version in the hopes that someone will (and I
just
know they will) come up with something better.
Your comment about 'as little turbulence as possible' is right on the
money.

Regards.
Ken.




Hokay, then... Here we go!
Looking at http://www.rupert.net/~solar/Case.jpg I see a 180 degree
turn in the fluid path. Even if you point the brass fitting the other
way, you're still going to be turning two 90s between the supply hookup
and the nozzle opening. Replacing it with a straight fitting is still
going to leave the 90 of going through the manifold bar and coming out
into the gap formed by the nozzle bar. The distance traveled after that
last 90 can't possibly be anywhere near enough for that much turbulence
to "settle out" before hitting the rotors.

Proposed fix/improvement:
Add another plate, suitably drilled and tapped to accept a (preferably
straight) fitting - Place it on the left side of the case as it's shown
in the image noted, then lift the manifold bar and the left piece of the
nozzle bar, and finish milling the "slot" on the top of the nozzle bar
all the way to the leftmost edge of the current case before reassembling
it. The new plate for the left side should be drilled and tapped in the
right position to give the drive fluid a straight flow from source to
rotor-bank, which should give a serious decrease in turbulence compared
to the two right-angle turns you've currently got.

Or am I completely off my rocker?

A thought, maybe not a good one..but perhaps a laminar flow element,
aka LFE would be useful to inject air or gas into the rotor section. A
LFE can simply be made from closely spaced plates - perhaps your
existing plate spacing on your rotor could be used. It works by having
a large channel length to diameter ratio. The renolds number is a
function of the LD ratio, so with smaller channels, laminar flow can be
maintained. Laminar flow elements are often used for flow measurement
devices, as the delta P is linear over awide range of flow. Refer to a
Perry's or Marks handbook to calculate the channel size need for
laminar flow at your mass flow rate.


Ken Davey wrote:
Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing, that hard
drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am finally ready to
show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Sincerely.
Ken.

--
Volunteer your idle computer time for cancer research
http//www.grid.org/download/gold/download.htm

"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
Christopher Tidy wrote:
Ken Davey wrote:
Christopher Tidy wrote:

Ken Davey wrote:

Christopher Tidy wrote:


Ken Davey wrote:


Some time ago somebody (forgotten who) mentioned, in passing,
that hard drive discs might serve as rotors in a Tesla Turbine.
I had been working for some time on that idea and now I am
finally ready to show the world (or at least RCM) the results.
http://www.rupert.net/~solar/
Click on Tesla Turbine - go figure
The page is still incomplete but the basics are there.

Neat work, Ken. I hope it works well. Certainly looks like it
should. Chris


I have had it up around 20,000 rpm. (on 100 psi. air) and it really
ran smooth.

Ken.

So it's just the drag caused by forcing air through the gaps between
discs which causes the turbine to rotate? How loud is it at 20,000
rpm?
Chris

Inaudible at twenty feet or so - really quiet.

Ken.

Neat. Are you going to use it to power something, or is it just a
demonstration?

Chris

Essentially it is just a model but.....
The output end of the shaft is a duplicate of the shaft on my Dumore tool
post grinder so those attachments can be used on the turbine.
I am sure there are going to be many practical uses for it.

Ken.


Oh, that should be fun -- I can just imagine what kind of gyroscopic forces
you will be fighting at 20,000 rpm with the disk platters and trying to move
it around. But I do like the work -- looks cool - and probably thick enough
side walls if the disks explode (I have no idea what max speed on them
would be).

mikey

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:14:20 -0700, Winston
wrote:

Robert Swinney wrote:
Winston sez: " Please post again when you have performance and efficiency
curves."

Not liable to happen. How are you going to test the efficiency of a heat
engine -- on air?

(Please forgive the nonsensical units with which I was crippled as a youth.
The following is all probably in gross error, but it's interesting.)

The back of the envelope says that air has a mass of about 20.7 ounces per
cubic foot after it is compressed to 100 PSIG. An 80 cu ft cylinder could
contain air massing 1656 oz.

If you exhausted that mass through a 100 percent efficient TT at sea level
in one second, you would expect to see about 140 watt-seconds of energy
converted from compressed air into work at the shaft end.

(Thought experiment: TT has 24" diameter rotor. 1.29 lbs of force placed
at the circumference for a torque of 1.29 lb. ft. at the shaft. That
torque, for one second is about 1/426 horsepower or 1.749 watt.)
At 1.749 watt seconds per cubic foot, an 80 cubic foot cylinder should
contain about 139.9 watt seconds of energy if it were initially at
100 PSIG. Clearly I am assuming a massless rotor and no loss incurred
in the process of measuring the power!)

So if you measured, say 70 watt - seconds of energy at the shaft, you
could peg the efficiency of the TT at 50%.

Physics majors, are these *anywhere near* the real numbers?

Probably not. Ya gotta include thermodynamics because temperature is
not constant when there is expansion and pressure is affected by
temperature.

When the term "entropy" appears, my eyes glaze and I quietly
retreat.

Don Foreman wrote:
(...)

Probably not. Ya gotta include thermodynamics because temperature is
not constant when there is expansion and pressure is affected by
temperature.

When the term "entropy" appears, my eyes glaze and I quietly
retreat.

(G)

So the force to the edge of the TT rotor is going to be some fraction
of (the mass of the air times the difference in the airs velocity from
the tank to the volute of the TT)? Hmmm.

--Winston