Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
CAMCOMPCO
 
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Default $2500 budget on lathe...what should I expect

Hi all,

I am considering upgrading my lathe and have gotten a 'wife approved"
budget of 2500 bucks. The most important thing to me is quality and
longevity. I can slowly acquire tooling and such. I want a tool that
will last me my whole life and never be the weak link in my shop (home
hobby).

I am torn between concentrating on South bend or Clausing. I believe
the tooling is more readily available for the southbend but have heard
some good things about Clausing (5903 for example) too

What should I expect for 2500 bucks? I purchased a Bridgeport mill a
year and a half ago for 5500 and couldn't be happier (it was totally
rebuilt to original specs, new oil lines, acme screw and nuts, motor
was re wired, etc..) but I struggled with the decission for months
before comming to grips with the $$$$ for something made 30 years ago
(just rubbed me wrong for the longest time)

any feedback would be great...I checked the archives but am hoping for
some new insight..never hurts...

Cheers all.

John

  #2   Report Post  
Harold and Susan Vordos
 
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"CAMCOMPCO" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi all,

I am considering upgrading my lathe and have gotten a 'wife approved"
budget of 2500 bucks. The most important thing to me is quality and
longevity. I can slowly acquire tooling and such. I want a tool that
will last me my whole life and never be the weak link in my shop (home
hobby).

I am torn between concentrating on South bend or Clausing. I believe
the tooling is more readily available for the southbend but have heard
some good things about Clausing (5903 for example) too

What should I expect for 2500 bucks? I purchased a Bridgeport mill a
year and a half ago for 5500 and couldn't be happier (it was totally
rebuilt to original specs, new oil lines, acme screw and nuts, motor
was re wired, etc..) but I struggled with the decission for months
before comming to grips with the $$$$ for something made 30 years ago
(just rubbed me wrong for the longest time)

any feedback would be great...I checked the archives but am hoping for
some new insight..never hurts...

Cheers all.

John


I wouldn't close the door on other makes of machines if it was up to me.
I'd keep my eyes open for a good LeBlond, P&W, Lodge & Shipley, American,
Mori-Seiki, Graziano, Monarch or any other decent make of machine, and
there's lots of them from which you can pick. The likelihood of finding a
good machine would improve considerably, and you'd never regret getting an
industrial rated machine instead of a light duty one. All of this, of
course, hinges on your ability to house and use a larger machine, and if
your work justifies it.

I also wouldn't get in a hurry. Do like you did with your Bridgeport, hunt
for that rare gem that's worth the money you'll lay down. You're a quantum
leap better off to pay a respectable price for a decent machine than you'd
be to buy a clapped out one that would require reworking. I recommend
such a buy only to people that delight in rebuilding machines, which, in the
end, would typically cost a huge amount more than one in decent condition.

Don't let a flashy paint job fool you, either. Don't lose sight of the fact
that paint does nothing to make a machine run well. Be more concerned
about the physical condition of the machine you buy, even if it's
ugly--------unless your thing is polishing machines instead of using them.

Harold


  #3   Report Post  
Karl Townsend
 
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I wouldn't close the door on other makes of machines if it was up to me.
I'd keep my eyes open for a good LeBlond, P&W, Lodge & Shipley, American,
Mori-Seiki, Graziano, Monarch or any other decent make of machine, and
there's lots of them from which you can pick. The likelihood of finding
a
good machine would improve considerably, and you'd never regret getting an
industrial rated machine instead of a light duty one. All of this, of
course, hinges on your ability to house and use a larger machine, and if
your work justifies it.


I'll put in a plug for my personal favorite small lathe. Monarch 10EE, only
'cause I own one. Here's a recent ebay sale:
http://cgi.ebay.com/MONARCH-10EE-10x...QQcmdZViewItem

This is a toolmaker quality machine. Prices have been going very reasonable.
Price is generally far below the Hardinge HLV, an equivalent machine. Its
principle weakness is the DC drive. This can easily be upgraded to 3 phase
spindle motor and VFD speed control. Other thing to check is if the swing
and length are adequate for your needs - 10"x20"

Karl


  #4   Report Post  
EdFielder
 
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Putting the machinery issue aside, keep in mind the old saying- " Its the
money you haven't spent yet that you worry over"
There is no such thing as a perfect machine, or a machine that will do
everything, so I would advise you to make a decision and not spend months
losing time ( which cannot be recovered) and sleep agonizing over a choice.


"CAMCOMPCO" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi all,

I am considering upgrading my lathe and have gotten a 'wife approved"
budget of 2500 bucks. The most important thing to me is quality and
longevity. I can slowly acquire tooling and such. I want a tool that
will last me my whole life and never be the weak link in my shop (home
hobby).

I am torn between concentrating on South bend or Clausing. I believe
the tooling is more readily available for the southbend but have heard
some good things about Clausing (5903 for example) too

What should I expect for 2500 bucks? I purchased a Bridgeport mill a
year and a half ago for 5500 and couldn't be happier (it was totally
rebuilt to original specs, new oil lines, acme screw and nuts, motor
was re wired, etc..) but I struggled with the decission for months
before comming to grips with the $$$$ for something made 30 years ago
(just rubbed me wrong for the longest time)

any feedback would be great...I checked the archives but am hoping for
some new insight..never hurts...

Cheers all.

John



  #5   Report Post  
Mike Henry
 
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Default


"CAMCOMPCO" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi all,

I am considering upgrading my lathe and have gotten a 'wife approved"
budget of 2500 bucks. The most important thing to me is quality and
longevity. I can slowly acquire tooling and such. I want a tool that
will last me my whole life and never be the weak link in my shop (home
hobby).

I am torn between concentrating on South bend or Clausing. I believe
the tooling is more readily available for the southbend but have heard
some good things about Clausing (5903 for example) too

What should I expect for 2500 bucks? I purchased a Bridgeport mill a
year and a half ago for 5500 and couldn't be happier (it was totally
rebuilt to original specs, new oil lines, acme screw and nuts, motor
was re wired, etc..) but I struggled with the decission for months
before comming to grips with the $$$$ for something made 30 years ago
(just rubbed me wrong for the longest time)

any feedback would be great...I checked the archives but am hoping for
some new insight..never hurts...


What are you upgrading from? Where will you be putting the lathe and how
difficult will it be to get it there? A shop with wide doors and ground
level access gives you a lot more options than a basement shop with limited
access. Your general location can also make a pretty big difference in
what you can expect, both in terms of condition and avaliable brands.
Unless you are in an area with a wide selection of available used tools you
will probably have to buy whichever brand you can find within cost and time
budget that meets your criteria for condition, utility, and included
tooling.

My shop is in a towwnhome basement with only inside stairway access and I've
found that my Clausing 5914 (~ 1,000 lbs) is about the biggest that can be
moved into the shop, even after tearing it down to the main components.
Mine was $1300 as bought and right around $2500 with repairs and basic
tooling upgrades a few years ago, but prices seem to have dropped a bit
since then for a similar lathe. The 5903 is a 24" C-C lathe and you might
want to consider a longer bed like the 5914 with 36" C-C unless you are
sure that you will never need the extra bed length or are very limited in
shop space. I've found the 5914 to be a vast improvement over the 12x36
Craftsman lathe that occupied it's previous spot in the shop. Finishes are
much better and I've found parting off to be much less nerve racking, even
on stainless steel.

I'm quite happy with the 5914, but you should be aware that the vari-speed
system on these can be a problem if not maintained properly. There's a $25
sleeve on the hub between the two motor pulley halves that needs to be
replaced periodically and the pulley can be severely damaged or destroyed if
this isn't done in time. A quick check of the lathe may not reveal the
damage, as I can verify from personal experience. The pulley is $700+ from
Clausing so it will pay to do your hoemwork and inspect the lathe thoroughly
before committing to a purchase. Other versions of the 5900-series lathes
used a stepped belt drive and you could retrofit them with a VFD to provide
variable speed if the lathe is fitted with a 3-phase motor. A combination
of the stepped drive and VFD is the safest way to go, but the VFD can't give
you the same speed range as the vari-speed system without changing the belt
between pulleys.

On the plus side these lathes have flame-hardened beds so the bed wear on
them could be a lot less than that on a lathe with non-hardened bed,
assuming similar service for both types. The headstock and apron have oil
baths which minimize wear to their internal components, assuming that
previous owners kept the sumps filled and changed out once in a while. Many
of the 5900-series lathes had a clutch and brake, which can come in handy
for some work. Clausing still supplies quite a few maintenance parts, which
can be a real plus, compared to other brands with no factory around to
support them any more.

I see that other brands have been suggested. You might add Rockwell and
Logan to that list. The Rockwell 11" lathe is good brand that you might
want to consider and it's variable speed system is less prone to damage than
the Clausing, but parts can be very hard to find. Logan still offers
support for their lathes. There are probably a lot of other brands that
would work as well for you, South Bend among them. Jim Rozen can probably
fill you in on what to look for in a SB.

Tooling shouldn't really be a problem as most of the basic stuff, like
chucks, toolpost sets, collets, etc. should be available on the used or new
market. Exceptions would be things like steady and follower rests, taper
attachments, or other tooling that will only fit the lathe under
consideration. As an example, it took about 3 years to find a steady
follower and TA for my lathe and cost a considerable fraction of the puchase
price of the lathe.

Mike







  #6   Report Post  
Robert Swinney
 
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Karl sez:

"Its principle weakness is the DC drive. This can easily be upgraded to 3
phase
spindle motor and VFD speed control."

Karl, can you give a bit more information re. upgrade to 3-Phase and VFD
control? I helped a friend go through the "electrics" on a 1964 Monarch
10EE. We repaired and restored the original DC speed control function.
This involved a lot of labor and troubleshooting time plus the cost of a new
( nominal $500) vacuum tube. Please elaborate a bit on the difficulty and
cost of replacing the DC motor with 3-Phase and VFD speed control. How
difficult was it to integrate into the Monarch's transmission? Was there a
space problem? Did you restore the original 10 HP capability of the
Monarch?

Bob Swinney









"Karl Townsend" remove .NOT to reply wrote
in message .net...


I wouldn't close the door on other makes of machines if it was up to me.
I'd keep my eyes open for a good LeBlond, P&W, Lodge & Shipley,
American,
Mori-Seiki, Graziano, Monarch or any other decent make of machine, and
there's lots of them from which you can pick. The likelihood of
finding a
good machine would improve considerably, and you'd never regret getting
an
industrial rated machine instead of a light duty one. All of this, of
course, hinges on your ability to house and use a larger machine, and if
your work justifies it.


I'll put in a plug for my personal favorite small lathe. Monarch 10EE,
only 'cause I own one. Here's a recent ebay sale:
http://cgi.ebay.com/MONARCH-10EE-10x...QQcmdZViewItem

This is a toolmaker quality machine. Prices have been going very
reasonable. Price is generally far below the Hardinge HLV, an equivalent
machine. Other thing to check is if the swing and length are adequate for
your needs - 10"x20"

Karl



  #7   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Don't let a flashy paint job fool you, either. Don't lose sight of the fact
that paint does nothing to make a machine run well.


In another world and another place, the phase is:

"Chrome don't get ya Home."

:^)

Another issue that the original poster might mention is how
*large* a machine he's looking for, and what kind of rigging
will be required to put the machine in place. And if the
budget for rigging and shipping is a *separate* line item
from SWMBO!

10EE is a nice large machine. I've always been fond of the
smaller gear-head P&W machines - 13" is as small as they
come I think.

If however his 2500 is purchase, shipping, and rigging total,
then a smaller machine like a SB 10L is a good choice.

Jim


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  #8   Report Post  
CAMCOMPCO
 
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To be honest, I am a wan-a-be inventor that fantasizes about the great
idea that will allow me to stop working for the man (Investment Banking
Firm). I like restoring cars and fabricating shop tools...but in the
end, the 2500 is all in. Now, as for tooling, SWMBO doesn't scrutinize
my every purchase...I can spend 100 here 100 there, just not 700 here
and 700 there. A MONARCH 10EE is a fantastic machine from what I have
read, just a bit to short...I don't want to permanently restrict myself
at the start. My thinking is that, while there may be a dozen great
lathes out there, aftermarket tooling and ease of future repairs
somewhat important...that's why I was looking at Clausing and SB. I
have a Logan 200, nice Lathe, a bit too small (weight), and not quite
as precise as I would like (wear and tear). It's also not a QC and
that is starting to Bug me the more I get into threading.....

Also, 2500 today will be 3500 after X-Mass, just haven't told (right
:-) SWMBO that yet... so maybe waiting until I have more $$$$ is an
option. I just want precision, and quality and would rather throw the
extra $$$ into CNC the BP.

Just thought I would provide more background....

thanks all for the time spend on my question, great group to belong to
:-)

Cheers

  #9   Report Post  
larry g
 
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CAM

I made the leap from a Logan to a Sheldon. It was a huge gain in weight,
regididity, power and control. I stayed with the same 10" swing and a lot
of the tooling I had carried over. After selling the Logan it was almost a
break even deal. Remember that this is not the last lathe that your going
to buy, it's just the next one. You also have to decide if this is to be a
turn key lathe or are you willing to put some more time and money into it.
It's just like the old cars, spend 30K and get a finished rig or 10K and
then put in the time and money to get it in the condition you want.
lg
no neat sig line

"CAMCOMPCO" wrote in message
ups.com...



Firm). I like restoring cars and fabricating shop tools...but in the
end, the 2500 is all in. Now, as for tooling, SWMBO doesn't scrutinize
my every purchase...I can spend 100 here 100 there, just not 700 here
and 700 there. A MONARCH 10EE is a fantastic machine from what I have
read, just a bit to short...I don't want to permanently restrict myself
at the start. My thinking is that, while there may be a dozen great
lathes out there, aftermarket tooling and ease of future repairs
somewhat important...that's why I was looking at Clausing and SB. I
have a Logan 200, nice Lathe, a bit too small (weight), and not quite
as precise as I would like (wear and tear). It's also not a QC and
that is starting to Bug me the more I get into threading.....



  #10   Report Post  
Karl Townsend
 
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....
Karl, can you give a bit more information re. upgrade to 3-Phase and VFD
control? I helped a friend go through the "electrics" on a 1964 Monarch
10EE. We repaired and restored the original DC speed control function.
This involved a lot of labor and troubleshooting time plus the cost of a
new ( nominal $500) vacuum tube. Please elaborate a bit on the difficulty
and cost of replacing the DC motor with 3-Phase and VFD speed control.
How difficult was it to integrate into the Monarch's transmission? Was
there a space problem? Did you restore the original 10 HP capability of
the Monarch?



Y^ou have a choice on which way to go.

1. Put in a 10 hp. three phase motor and toss the step down tranny.

2. Put in a 5 hp. three phase motor and keep the step down tranny.

I went with option 2. Completely tear the field windings out of the old DC
motor, cut the armature shaft just before the commutator. Mount a new 5hp
motor inside the shell of the old motor, there's plenty of room. Connect new
motor to old shaft with a roller chain coupling. Alignment is pretty touchy
here.



For control, tear out the old rheostat assembly and replace it with a 2K ohm
pot. Connect pot to VFD. Tear apart the old rocker shift assembly for
forward/reverse. Connect contacts to VFD forward and reverse. Done this way,
the operator can't tell its not an original 10EE, controls are identical.



I spent $25 on the 3 phase motor, $20 on the pot, got the roller chain
coupling out a the scrap heap, and maybe $300 on the VFD drive. Of course,
my time to do all this was free.

Karl





  #11   Report Post  
Harold and Susan Vordos
 
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"Karl Townsend" remove .NOT to reply wrote
in message .net...


I wouldn't close the door on other makes of machines if it was up to me.
I'd keep my eyes open for a good LeBlond, P&W, Lodge & Shipley,

American,
Mori-Seiki, Graziano, Monarch or any other decent make of machine, and
there's lots of them from which you can pick. The likelihood of

finding
a
good machine would improve considerably, and you'd never regret getting

an
industrial rated machine instead of a light duty one. All of this, of
course, hinges on your ability to house and use a larger machine, and if
your work justifies it.


I'll put in a plug for my personal favorite small lathe. Monarch 10EE,

only
'cause I own one. Here's a recent ebay sale:

http://cgi.ebay.com/MONARCH-10EE-10x...OF-EXTRAS_W0QQ
itemZ7537592188QQcategoryZ633QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrd Z1QQcmdZViewItem

This is a toolmaker quality machine. Prices have been going very

reasonable.
Price is generally far below the Hardinge HLV, an equivalent machine. Its
principle weakness is the DC drive. This can easily be upgraded to 3 phase
spindle motor and VFD speed control. Other thing to check is if the swing
and length are adequate for your needs - 10"x20"

Karl


Excellent choice of machine, with virtually no equal known. If yours is in
good condition, I'm green with envy. I spent a great deal of time running
what was then a new one.

They're not a 10" machine, however. They are a 12" machine. I have no idea
why they are called a 10. Some were offered with longer centers, but they
aren't common. I've seen only one.

Harold



  #12   Report Post  
D Murphy
 
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"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in
:

I wouldn't close the door on other makes of machines if it was up to
me. I'd keep my eyes open for a good LeBlond, P&W, Lodge & Shipley,
American, Mori-Seiki, Graziano, Monarch or any other decent make of
machine, and there's lots of them from which you can pick.


Good advise. Just keep in mind that some of the older American iron had
high horsepower. A 13" Lodge & Shipley is 20 horse. If you can supply
adequate three phase power for them, these older industrial machines will
reward you with some serious cutting capability.


--

Dan

  #13   Report Post  
Paul Amaranth
 
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I'll put in a plug for LeBlond, parts are still available from Leblond
America. I have a 15x30 Regal which is a very nice machine. I did
like the later Clausing Colchesters, though, but didn't find one in my
price range when I was looking.

One thing you'll want to look for is a non-threaded spindle. Being
able to run in reverse without worrying about the chuck coming off is
very handy. For one thing, it allows you to cut threads away from a
shoulder with an upside down threading tool. The Leblond used a keyed
long taper spindle, which I like, but the camlock spindles are much
more popular and available today.

  #14   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article . com, CAMCOMPCO
says...

Also, 2500 today will be 3500 after X-Mass, just haven't told (right
:-) SWMBO that yet... so maybe waiting until I have more $$$$ is an
option. I just want precision, and quality and would rather throw the
extra $$$ into CNC the BP.


The extra 1K will make a considerable difference.

How much room to you have to install this machine?

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
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  #15   Report Post  
DoN. Nichols
 
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In article .com,
CAMCOMPCO wrote:
Hi all,

I am considering upgrading my lathe and have gotten a 'wife approved"
budget of 2500 bucks. The most important thing to me is quality and
longevity. I can slowly acquire tooling and such. I want a tool that
will last me my whole life and never be the weak link in my shop (home
hobby).

I am torn between concentrating on South bend or Clausing. I believe
the tooling is more readily available for the southbend but have heard
some good things about Clausing (5903 for example) too


I have a Clausing 5418 (12x24") with which I am quite pleased.
It cost me something like $1700.00 about five years ago -- from eBay.
(Granted, the auction closed on Chirstmas Eve, and I was one of two
bidders. :-)

I would personally avoid the 5900 series for one reason. I
believe that it has a hydraulically-actuated variable speed pulley
assembly, and there are parts of these which can wear out and if not
maintained (relatively low cost parts like Delrin sleeves), can damage
some quite expensive parts.

Your wish for something to work the rest of your life may make
this style a poor choice.

Note that mine came with a bed turret, and *no* tailstock, so I
had to chase down a proper tailstock to fit it.

What should I expect for 2500 bucks?


If 12x24" is sufficient for your work, this is at least one
datapoint for a reasonable price.

Note that I later picked up from eBay a spare headstock (perhaps
from a 5900 series machine) which had an L-00 spindle nose, and I
swapped that into the machine so I could get away from the risk of a
chuck unscrewing when I ran the lathe in reverse while cutting. (This
is nice for internally threading in a blind hole -- using an upside-down
threading tool cutting on the backside of the workpiece.

One place where the SouthBend wins over the Clausing which I
have is the presence of a clutch assembly in the power feed (not in
threading, of course), which can reduce the damage caused by a crash.

One strong benefit for a machine which comes with a bed turret
is that the leadscrew has probably never been used for threading (the
half nuts), and only has driven the worm gear for power feed. (All
threading with a turret is probably done with things like a Geometric
die head, which cuts beautiful threads while hand fed.

The clue that mine had never been used with the leadscrew for
cutting threads is that the threading dial was still in one of the
drawers in the pedestal, instead of bolted onto the side of the apron.

The cross-feed leadscrew, however, was badly worn (along with
the nut) to the point of 0.070" backlash (nearly 3/4 of a turn). So, I
replaced the leadscrew and nut shortly after getting the machine.

And yes -- I have gotten quite a bit of use out of the bed
turret as well.

As for the tailstock -- there are two which will fit it. One,
(the wrong one, but it will work for many things) has an MT-2 taper.
The proper one has a MT-3 taper, is somewhat longer and much heavier. I
used the wrong one until I came across the right one on yet another eBay
auction. (I also got most of a taper attachment from yet another such
auction -- though it took me a bit of puzzle work to figure out what was
missing, and how it fully install it. I later got the manual pages for
both styles from Clausing service center, and the non-telescoping
version showed that I have figured it out properly

[ ... ]

any feedback would be great...I checked the archives but am hoping for
some new insight..never hurts...


Well ... this is one data point, at least.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---


  #16   Report Post  
CAMCOMPCO
 
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Can't ya put a set screw in the chuck to keep it from unscrewing? Just
a thought..

Now to the original question from Jim, room is an issue, I would say
the footprint of the lathe can't be greater than 6'x3' or so. Real
issue is getting something too damn heavin into my shop, the BP was put
in prior to the basement being finished through a 6' slider (we have a
walkout basement). The way I figure it, even with a Clausing or other
1200 pounder, I would take it apart, bring it to shop, clean and
reasemble. If the footprint gets bigger than I will have to rearrange
my shop cabinets and BP, not the end of the world. Here is a few shots
of the shop for S&G's:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...d/IMG_0571.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...d/IMG_0563.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...d/IMG_0567.jpg

The microwave is actually a GE Advantium (damn thing cost like 650
bucks) I use for heat treating metal and preheating aluminum (etc)
prior to tig welding..we had a house fire Halloween morning (talk about
BOO!!) salvaged the cabinets and oven for the shop..proverbial silver
lining I guess :-)

As you can see, kind of cramped...but, hey I am not a production guy,
just a wanabee prototyper/inventor.

By the way, here is a shot of a shaper I just made (for cutting
keyways, and making round holed square...got the idea from HSM, works
well on aluminum...question how well it will work of CRS.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...d/IMG_0570.jpg
again, totally off topic, just thought I would share.

Back to thread, talked wife into basically whatever, cap = 4k, if I
spend $4001, I am a dead man. New dilemma is finding something before
a new emergency comes up that takes away SWMBO approved funds...this
has happened before...the ol, "The new engine for you 78 Trans Am was
fine until 2 of our kids needed braces in the same 6 months". then, the
T/A got pushed back...that vs jumping on the first thing that comes by.
I bet I sound like a lot of you guys :-)

Sorry for the ramble....


John

  #17   Report Post  
Harold and Susan Vordos
 
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"CAMCOMPCO" wrote in message
ups.com...

Can't ya put a set screw in the chuck to keep it from unscrewing? Just
a thought..


It's sort of a Mickey Mouse way to go, even if it works for the circumstance
at hand at the moment.. Under ideal conditions, you occasionally need to
use your machine in reverse in much the same way you'd use it forward. I'd
hate like hell to think the difference between my chuck staying on the
machine, or not, is nothing more than a set screw keeping it in place.

Yeah, I know, if you've never used one that way, you can't imagine the need,
but trust me, when you use these machines for gain, as many of us have, you
come to realize that any limitation turns out to be a real negative
eventually. That's why I suggested one shop for the closest to an
industrial machine as possible. There's a huge difference between home shop
type machines and industrially rated ones, and it's a difference that can
pay serious dividends as your machining skills improve.

Harold


  #18   Report Post  
Harold and Susan Vordos
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
In article .com,

snip------

Note that I later picked up from eBay a spare headstock (perhaps
from a 5900 series machine) which had an L-00 spindle nose, and I
swapped that into the machine so I could get away from the risk of a
chuck unscrewing when I ran the lathe in reverse while cutting. (This
is nice for internally threading in a blind hole -- using an upside-down
threading tool cutting on the backside of the workpiece.


Want to give that a little more thought, DoN? You run the machine forward
in that setup, not reverse. :-)

Harold



  #19   Report Post  
DoN. Nichols
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
In article .com,

snip------

Note that I later picked up from eBay a spare headstock (perhaps
from a 5900 series machine) which had an L-00 spindle nose, and I
swapped that into the machine so I could get away from the risk of a
chuck unscrewing when I ran the lathe in reverse while cutting. (This
is nice for internally threading in a blind hole -- using an upside-down
threading tool cutting on the backside of the workpiece.


Want to give that a little more thought, DoN? You run the machine forward
in that setup, not reverse. :-)


You're right. Upside down in forward or right-side up in
reverse. Which means that the right-side up one needs a different
grind, while the upside-down one can be the same grind.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
  #20   Report Post  
Wayne Cook
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 27 Aug 2005 09:00:33 -0700, "CAMCOMPCO"
wrote:



To be honest, I am a wan-a-be inventor that fantasizes about the great
idea that will allow me to stop working for the man (Investment Banking
Firm). I like restoring cars and fabricating shop tools...but in the
end, the 2500 is all in. Now, as for tooling, SWMBO doesn't scrutinize
my every purchase...I can spend 100 here 100 there, just not 700 here
and 700 there. A MONARCH 10EE is a fantastic machine from what I have
read, just a bit to short...I don't want to permanently restrict myself
at the start. My thinking is that, while there may be a dozen great
lathes out there, aftermarket tooling and ease of future repairs
somewhat important...that's why I was looking at Clausing and SB. I
have a Logan 200, nice Lathe, a bit too small (weight), and not quite
as precise as I would like (wear and tear). It's also not a QC and
that is starting to Bug me the more I get into threading.....

I agree with Harold myself. If you're looking look for something
with some weight that is capable of decent cuts and accuracy. Now
while I've not used a South Bend myself I've looked at several and I
must say that I'm not impressed with the mass of the machine. I'm not
saying that they're not capable of good work (there's way to many of
them out there producing good work to ever say that) but that it's
just not a heavy duty machine. I know that Fitch always commented on
that. He had both a South Bend and a new import 14" lathe and used the
14" lathe nearly always just due the increased capability it had. He
did state that the South Bend was more soothing to use.

I have a friend here that has just upgraded his lathe from a fully
tooled and super nice shape Atlas 12" cabinet model to a 14" Logan. It
ended up costing a little more than he expected due to a few surprises
but overall he's much happier with the Logan. He did manage to sell
the Atlas for about twice what he'd paid for it not counting the parts
and accessaries he added and it offset the cost considerably (which
overall wasn't much over what your budget is even when counting the
shipping from NY to TX and the new worm and wheel he had to buy for
the feed in the apron). It is not the equal to my Pratt and Whitney
but it isn't anything to sneeze at either. It's fully capable of
adequate cuts and accuracy. My only complaint is that the feed train
is noisy and not as refined as it is on more industrial oriented
lathes.

Given your requirements above I'd say that a 14" Logan might well
fit into the picture. It has the weight, the support, and a decent
amount of tooling available that you're looking for. However if you're
willing to look harder for the parts and accessaries then consider
Pratt and Whitney (since you've already discounted the 10EE I think
mine is great and has enough increased capacity over a 10EE that it
should do most of what you want), larger Monarchs are out there as
well though most do jump rather fast up above the 10EE, there's also
the LeBlondes which make a pretty darn good small lathe for someone
like you (I don't think as much of them in a production environment
but that's a totally different story). The fact is there's more good
lathes out there than I can even think of at the moment. The Clausings
might well be a good choice. Unfortunately my experience with them is
limited to seeing a few at auctions and the like.


Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm


  #21   Report Post  
DoN. Nichols
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"CAMCOMPCO" wrote in message
oups.com...

Can't ya put a set screw in the chuck to keep it from unscrewing? Just
a thought..


It's sort of a Mickey Mouse way to go, even if it works for the circumstance
at hand at the moment..


I've seen posted (here or elsewhere) an interesting approach for
a Myford (a good UK model engineer's lathe). The chuck has bolted to
the backplate a collar which surrounds the register diameter of the
spindle, with a slot out to one edge, and a screw crossing the slot, so
when it is tightened, the collar binds on the spindle so it won't easily
unscrew.

This is *not* as positive as I would like, which is why I
replaced the spindle in my Clausing with an L-00 one (long taper with
key, and a threaded draw-up ring to hold the chuck firmly on the taper.)

The two problems which I can see with the clamp collar a

1) Under serious cutting load it *can* slip, just about the time
you've decided to trust it.

2) If you *don't* tighten it every time, I could see that clamp
screw possibly working lose and backing out when the lahte is
taking a cut which is chattering -- much to your surprise as it
starts bashing into the bed or bounces off a wall or the ceiling
(or *you*).

This second risk could be minimized by bolting a retaining
plate over the screw head -- with a hole large enough to accept
the allen wrench, but not the head of the capscrew.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
  #22   Report Post  
Peter Grey
 
Posts: n/a
Default



"CAMCOMPCO" wrote in message
ups.com...
The microwave is actually a GE Advantium (damn thing cost like 650
bucks) I use for heat treating metal and preheating aluminum (etc)
prior to tig welding..we had a house fire Halloween morning (talk about
BOO!!) salvaged the cabinets and oven for the shop..proverbial silver
lining I guess :-)


I undoubtedly am showing a vast well of ignorance, but I didn't think
putting metal in a microwave was a "good thing". I thought this would
rearrange the electrons in the earth's magna-gravitational field or some
such thing. How do you use it for preheating and heat treating? How do you
monitor temperature? Microwaves are cheap these days - I want to do this.

Peter


  #23   Report Post  
D Murphy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"CAMCOMPCO" wrote in
ups.com:

Back to thread, talked wife into basically whatever, cap = 4k, if I
spend $4001,


Now your only $500.00 away from a new Alliant 13x40.

http://www.remsales.com/machines/pages/content/engine_lathe.html

Not the greatest lathe in the world, but damn hard to beat for the money.
Plus it comes fully equipped.


--

Dan

  #24   Report Post  
Harold and Susan Vordos
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
In article .com,

snip------

Note that I later picked up from eBay a spare headstock (perhaps
from a 5900 series machine) which had an L-00 spindle nose, and I
swapped that into the machine so I could get away from the risk of a
chuck unscrewing when I ran the lathe in reverse while cutting. (This
is nice for internally threading in a blind hole -- using an

upside-down
threading tool cutting on the backside of the workpiece.


Want to give that a little more thought, DoN? You run the machine

forward
in that setup, not reverse. :-)


You're right. Upside down in forward or right-side up in
reverse. Which means that the right-side up one needs a different
grind, while the upside-down one can be the same grind.

Enjoy,
DoN.



Yep! :-)

Harold


  #25   Report Post  
Mike Henry
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
In article .com,

snip

I would personally avoid the 5900 series for one reason. I
believe that it has a hydraulically-actuated variable speed pulley
assembly, and there are parts of these which can wear out and if not
maintained (relatively low cost parts like Delrin sleeves), can damage
some quite expensive parts.

Your wish for something to work the rest of your life may make
this style a poor choice.


The warning on the pulley for the 5900-series lathes is warranted but
shouldn't be avoided for that reason - just take some time to inspect one
thoroughly before buying. The 5914 I bought had a thourougly trashed
pulley, which was replaced at a cost of $700 or so and the lathe still came
in under the OP's $2500 budget. Then too, some models of that lathe were
sold with step pulleys instead of the vari-speed system. There are quite a
few 5900-series lathes out there still and Clausing support for them is
pretty good.

Note that mine came with a bed turret, and *no* tailstock, so I
had to chase down a proper tailstock to fit it.


Bed turrets are handy accessories to get if you have the work that justifies
them

snip




  #26   Report Post  
Brian Lawson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:37:16 -0500, "Mike Henry"
wrote:


"CAMCOMPCO" wrote in message
roups.com...
Hi all,

I am considering upgrading my lathe and have gotten a 'wife approved"
budget of 2500 bucks. The most important thing to me is quality and
longevity. I can slowly acquire tooling and such. I want a tool that
will last me my whole life and never be the weak link in my shop (home
hobby).

I am torn between concentrating on South bend or Clausing. I believe
the tooling is more readily available for the southbend but have heard
some good things about Clausing (5903 for example) too

What should I expect for 2500 bucks? I purchased a Bridgeport mill a
year and a half ago for 5500 and couldn't be happier (it was totally
rebuilt to original specs, new oil lines, acme screw and nuts, motor
was re wired, etc..) but I struggled with the decission for months
before comming to grips with the $$$$ for something made 30 years ago
(just rubbed me wrong for the longest time)

any feedback would be great...I checked the archives but am hoping for
some new insight..never hurts...


What are you upgrading from? Where will you be putting the lathe and how
difficult will it be to get it there? A shop with wide doors and ground
level access gives you a lot more options than a basement shop with limited
access. Your general location can also make a pretty big difference in
what you can expect, both in terms of condition and avaliable brands.
Unless you are in an area with a wide selection of available used tools you
will probably have to buy whichever brand you can find within cost and time
budget that meets your criteria for condition, utility, and included
tooling.

My shop is in a towwnhome basement with only inside stairway access and I've
found that my Clausing 5914 (~ 1,000 lbs) is about the biggest that can be
moved into the shop, even after tearing it down to the main components.
Mine was $1300 as bought and right around $2500 with repairs and basic
tooling upgrades a few years ago, but prices seem to have dropped a bit
since then for a similar lathe. The 5903 is a 24" C-C lathe and you might
want to consider a longer bed like the 5914 with 36" C-C unless you are
sure that you will never need the extra bed length or are very limited in
shop space. I've found the 5914 to be a vast improvement over the 12x36
Craftsman lathe that occupied it's previous spot in the shop. Finishes are
much better and I've found parting off to be much less nerve racking, even
on stainless steel.

I'm quite happy with the 5914, but you should be aware that the vari-speed
system on these can be a problem if not maintained properly. There's a $25
sleeve on the hub between the two motor pulley halves that needs to be
replaced periodically and the pulley can be severely damaged or destroyed if
this isn't done in time. A quick check of the lathe may not reveal the
damage, as I can verify from personal experience. The pulley is $700+ from
Clausing so it will pay to do your hoemwork and inspect the lathe thoroughly
before committing to a purchase. Other versions of the 5900-series lathes
used a stepped belt drive and you could retrofit them with a VFD to provide
variable speed if the lathe is fitted with a 3-phase motor. A combination
of the stepped drive and VFD is the safest way to go, but the VFD can't give
you the same speed range as the vari-speed system without changing the belt
between pulleys.

On the plus side these lathes have flame-hardened beds so the bed wear on
them could be a lot less than that on a lathe with non-hardened bed,
assuming similar service for both types. The headstock and apron have oil
baths which minimize wear to their internal components, assuming that
previous owners kept the sumps filled and changed out once in a while. Many
of the 5900-series lathes had a clutch and brake, which can come in handy
for some work. Clausing still supplies quite a few maintenance parts, which
can be a real plus, compared to other brands with no factory around to
support them any more.

I see that other brands have been suggested. You might add Rockwell and
Logan to that list. The Rockwell 11" lathe is good brand that you might
want to consider and it's variable speed system is less prone to damage than
the Clausing, but parts can be very hard to find. Logan still offers
support for their lathes. There are probably a lot of other brands that
would work as well for you, South Bend among them. Jim Rozen can probably
fill you in on what to look for in a SB.

Tooling shouldn't really be a problem as most of the basic stuff, like
chucks, toolpost sets, collets, etc. should be available on the used or new
market. Exceptions would be things like steady and follower rests, taper
attachments, or other tooling that will only fit the lathe under
consideration. As an example, it took about 3 years to find a steady
follower and TA for my lathe and cost a considerable fraction of the puchase
price of the lathe.

Mike


Hey Mike,

There have been a number of good posts on this thread, but you've
taken the time, as did the others, to post a really nice reply. I'm
merely an observer on this one, but even I appreciate it, and
recognize that it takes more than just few minutes of your time to
write it.

Undoubtedly, the replies already sent to the OP have been well
receivied by him, as he has said, and I'm sure if "CAMCOMPCO" sticks
around long enough here, he will come to realize just what effort was
done to help him out.

Besides, it's been interesting!

Thank you.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

  #27   Report Post  
CAMCOMPCO
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Peter,

The advantium heats my coffee using microwaves and my metal using
quarts heating elements just like an oven. It heats from the top and
bottom while circulating hot air (fan inside oven) around the part I am
heating. it is programable with user defined settingas so I can set up
staggard cooling for parts that I heat treat...limitation = 450F...but
fine for tig welding, powder coating, etc......

John

  #28   Report Post  
CAMCOMPCO
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Gents,

I have already "come to realize" and appreciate the effort that has
been undertaken to help me out. As I stated in post #10, thanks again
to all that take the time out to help me and others....it's a great
group of people to be associated with and the replies (and the
associated time they imply has been taken) is greatly appreciated. I
look forward to helping others as my skill-set grows.

But, If any of you want some advise on Stock Option hedging
Strategies....just let me know :-)

John

  #29   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article . com, CAMCOMPCO
says...

Now to the original question from Jim, room is an issue, I would say
the footprint of the lathe can't be greater than 6'x3' or so. Real
issue is getting something too damn heavin into my shop, the BP was put
in prior to the basement being finished through a 6' slider (we have a
walkout basement). The way I figure it, even with a Clausing or other
1200 pounder, I would take it apart, bring it to shop, clean and
reasemble.


If you have grade acess with a six foot slider that's half the
battle won right there. You have the option of going with a
larger machine.

Next question is, do you need the extra capacity in the lathe?
How often will you be turning something larger in diameter than
say, 6" or longer than a foot?

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================
  #30   Report Post  
Peter Grey
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ahh. Got it. Thanks.

Peter

"CAMCOMPCO" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Peter,

The advantium heats my coffee using microwaves and my metal using
quarts heating elements just like an oven. It heats from the top and
bottom while circulating hot air (fan inside oven) around the part I am
heating. it is programable with user defined settingas so I can set up
staggard cooling for parts that I heat treat...limitation = 450F...but
fine for tig welding, powder coating, etc......

John





  #31   Report Post  
CAMCOMPCO
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well, here is the thing, I hardly ever turn anything larger than 3 or 4
inches in diameter or longer than 1 foot, but, I have no idea where my
interests will take me over time. So, I say, get the nicest, largest
lathe I can reasonable get. The key here is the term reasonable.
There is an obvious trade off between the probability of an event and
the preparation of said event.....

I think the longest thing I could ever see working on would be a rifle
barrel and I can't think of one thing I would chuck up that is wider
than 1 foot (12" swing)

Cheers


John

  #32   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article . com, CAMCOMPCO
says...

Well, here is the thing, I hardly ever turn anything larger than 3 or 4
inches in diameter or longer than 1 foot, but, I have no idea where my
interests will take me over time.


One viewpoint on this is to simply purchase a reasonably large
machine (something like a logan or 10L SB that can take 5C collets
in the spindle) and hold the industrial strength machine in reserve.

You could upgrade later if circumstances require it.

What lathe did you say you are using right now?

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================
  #33   Report Post  
CAMCOMPCO
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Jim,
I have 2, the one I am using is a Logan 200 with taper attachment and
the one I am restoring (basically, took apart, cleaned, painted,
considering getting the bed re ground) but so far have not put back
together is an Atlas 12"...tight machine with alot of tooling, just a
bit small (light)

The Logan is a fine lathe for it's price and condition, non-QC, I have
a full set of gears for her though...the saddle, if snug at the head,
starts to bind 10 inches back, a bit of taper due to bed wear, not
prohibitive, just looking for an upgrade and got the wife to say "go
for it if it makes you happy (she is a doll like that....but, she is a
stay at home mom...always wondered why I was so shocked to get
permission granted for things like this after the 65 hr work week was
over ;-)


John

  #34   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article .com, CAMCOMPCO
says...

Hi Jim,
I have 2, the one I am using is a Logan 200 with taper attachment and
the one I am restoring (basically, took apart, cleaned, painted,
considering getting the bed re ground) but so far have not put back
together is an Atlas 12"...tight machine with alot of tooling, just a
bit small (light)


The atlas is a pretty light machine of course. I don't think it will
do a 5C collet, right?

The logan likewise.

There is some room in between those machines, and the real
industrial stuff that harold was mentioning.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================
  #35   Report Post  
Marty Escarcega
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Great advice from many people. I recently bought a Clausing 5904. As Mike
mentioned already, its a 12"x24" lathe. It is replacing a really nice
Leblond 15" Dual Drive. I am in the process of moving and had to downsize.
The 5904 will do 90% of the work I intend to do. It is well supported by
Clausing and anything larger I have lots of friends with big machines in my
metalworking club. Capacity and manufacturer support helped my make my
decision. I was leaning towards the same size Grizzly Gear Head for less
money. But the imports tend to change design and I was unsure of long term
support. The flip side is as was mentioned before, you really have to
inspect a used machine.

Good luck in your quest.


  #36   Report Post  
Peter Wiley
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Wayne Cook
wrote:

On 27 Aug 2005 09:00:33 -0700, "CAMCOMPCO"
wrote:



To be honest, I am a wan-a-be inventor that fantasizes about the great
idea that will allow me to stop working for the man (Investment Banking
Firm). I like restoring cars and fabricating shop tools...but in the
end, the 2500 is all in. Now, as for tooling, SWMBO doesn't scrutinize
my every purchase...I can spend 100 here 100 there, just not 700 here
and 700 there. A MONARCH 10EE is a fantastic machine from what I have
read, just a bit to short...I don't want to permanently restrict myself
at the start. My thinking is that, while there may be a dozen great
lathes out there, aftermarket tooling and ease of future repairs
somewhat important...that's why I was looking at Clausing and SB. I
have a Logan 200, nice Lathe, a bit too small (weight), and not quite
as precise as I would like (wear and tear). It's also not a QC and
that is starting to Bug me the more I get into threading.....

I agree with Harold myself. If you're looking look for something
with some weight that is capable of decent cuts and accuracy. Now
while I've not used a South Bend myself I've looked at several and I
must say that I'm not impressed with the mass of the machine. I'm not
saying that they're not capable of good work (there's way to many of
them out there producing good work to ever say that) but that it's
just not a heavy duty machine. I know that Fitch always commented on
that. He had both a South Bend and a new import 14" lathe and used the
14" lathe nearly always just due the increased capability it had.


I don't know what a SB weighs, but I had an Aussie Premo about the same
size but a V bed config. 2 people could lift the headstock/bed assy
without too much dramas. I did a lot of work on that machine.

My Emco Maximat 11 weighs 180 kg. It was a lot more rigid & capable of
heavier cuts than the Premo. I don't use it much because ....

My Colchester Chipmaster weighs nearly 600 kg. It's a lot more rigid &
capable of heavier cuts than the Emco 11. I lucked into a good deal on
this machine.

The Monarch is heavier still and a better machine for about the same
work envelope. Friend of mine has one.

The other thing you get with mass & rigidity is repeatability. I was
doing a short production run, boring for bearings. Once I had the
settings dialed in, with a good QC toolpost I used to drill, rough
bore, finish bore and swap parts out. Check measure every couple. You
can get the same accuracy with a lot lighter machine, but you have to
work harder for it, and it takes longer.

My advice - but the heaviest machine you can find/afford/move, in
satisfactory mechanical condition. Screw the paint job. You can add
tooling to a machine by purchase or making it yourself, but the ony way
to get more mass/power is to buy another one.

PDW
  #37   Report Post  
CAMCOMPCO
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Marty

What, if you don't mind me asking, did the Clausing run ya? Can you
provide some color as to shape and tooling that the $$$$ got ya. I am
just curious to see what others are paying and what they are getting.
Did your price include shipping or was it local?

Thanks Marty

John

  #38   Report Post  
Rex B
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"CAMCOMPCO" wrote in message
oups.com...

Hi all,

I am considering upgrading my lathe and have gotten a 'wife approved"
budget of 2500 bucks. The most important thing to me is quality and
longevity. I can slowly acquire tooling and such. I want a tool that
will last me my whole life and never be the weak link in my shop (home
hobby).

I am torn between concentrating on South bend or Clausing. I believe
the tooling is more readily available for the southbend but have heard
some good things about Clausing (5903 for example) too

What should I expect for 2500 bucks?

John


I wouldn't close the door on other makes of machines if it was up to me.
I'd keep my eyes open for a good LeBlond, P&W, Lodge & Shipley, American,
Mori-Seiki, Graziano, Monarch or any other decent make of machine, and
there's lots of them from which you can pick. The likelihood of finding a
good machine would improve considerably, and you'd never regret getting an
industrial rated machine instead of a light duty one. All of this, of
course, hinges on your ability to house and use a larger machine, and if
your work justifies it.


I'd also add Okuma to this list. These are gorgeous modern industrial
machines that can occasionally be found in your price range.
  #39   Report Post  
Rex B
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Marty Escarcega wrote:
Great advice from many people. I recently bought a Clausing 5904. As Mike
mentioned already, its a 12"x24" lathe. It is replacing a really nice
Leblond 15" Dual Drive. I am in the process of moving and had to downsize.
The 5904 will do 90% of the work I intend to do. It is well supported by
Clausing and anything larger I have lots of friends with big machines in my
metalworking club. Capacity and manufacturer support helped my make my
decision. I was leaning towards the same size Grizzly Gear Head for less
money. But the imports tend to change design and I was unsure of long term
support.


Good point there. I can buy almost any part for my 50 year old Logan
(thanks, Scott), but a 20 year old Enco is not supported with parts
availability by Enco or anyone else.
So I'm using my Logan to make parts to get the Enco working.

Rex B
  #40   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 28 Aug 2005 14:04:06 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article .com, CAMCOMPCO
says...

Hi Jim,
I have 2, the one I am using is a Logan 200 with taper attachment and
the one I am restoring (basically, took apart, cleaned, painted,
considering getting the bed re ground) but so far have not put back
together is an Atlas 12"...tight machine with alot of tooling, just a
bit small (light)


The atlas is a pretty light machine of course. I don't think it will
do a 5C collet, right?

The logan likewise.

There is some room in between those machines, and the real
industrial stuff that harold was mentioning.

Jim


A good Logan 11, is a decent lathe of its type. 5c spindle nose, beefy
enough for most normal work, and parts are readily available.

Gunner

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