Here is a bit more information on security systems, from Richard Fitzgerald
in Tulsa, OK. Richard is not a contributor to RCM, but I "drew" on him for
more information.

Bob Swinney

Richard Sez:

Can't remember the name, matter-of-fact I just threw it out during the great
dumpster filling of 2003. Most of the current burgler alarm equipment is
made by ADEMCO. Most of the home security companies just have their name
stuck on it. Most modern systems are modem based and dial into the
monitoring centers computer and dumps a numerical code identifying the
location and type of alarm. Some of the better alarms monitor the phone
line for -48V and in the event they loose the voltage they will dial in via
a cellphone type of connection. Used to most of the central staiton
monitoring was done over a leased pair with a 10ma. current loop, the
monitor panel had a under current and over current relay for status. You
probably remember those in a lot of the small town police stations usually a
small panel with several meters with a couple of lights, it was made by
ADEMCO. In larger towns (Tulsa) they would use a series loop that would
take in as many as 20 businesses in a large series loop called a McCullah
loop. At the central station they had a pen register that moved in relation
to a break in the circuit. Each business had a closed loop for the alarm
and a relay with a code wheel that was in series with the alarm loop. If
you had a premises trip it would cycle the code wheel and the cestral
station would mark the code of opens and closes on a pull paper looked a lot
like tty paper, the operator would read the code and dispatch to the
location bases upon the code. Digital telco CO and interoffice fiber trunks
has did away with these type s of alarms

On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:31:39 GMT, "Bob Swinney"
wrote:

Can't remember the name, matter-of-fact I just threw it out during the great
dumpster filling of 2003. Most of the current burgler alarm equipment is
made by ADEMCO.

Some..some..of the current alarm equipment is rebadged Ademco.
Particulary those sold by the slash and run companies whom install an
alarm system for $19.95 and monitor it for $24 a month for a
gazzillion years.

DSC, Napco and a host of other good controls are made by their own
factories. Im rather fond of DSC controls myself. Made in Canada.

Gunner, Tech Services manager for an alarm/data/communications company
for 17 yrs, before getting into the machine tool business in '97
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

DSC was sold last year.


"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:31:39 GMT, "Bob Swinney"
wrote:

Can't remember the name, matter-of-fact I just threw it out during the
great
dumpster filling of 2003. Most of the current burgler alarm equipment is
made by ADEMCO.

Some..some..of the current alarm equipment is rebadged Ademco.
Particulary those sold by the slash and run companies whom install an
alarm system for $19.95 and monitor it for $24 a month for a
gazzillion years.

DSC, Napco and a host of other good controls are made by their own
factories. Im rather fond of DSC controls myself. Made in Canada.

Gunner, Tech Services manager for an alarm/data/communications company
for 17 yrs, before getting into the machine tool business in '97
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:14:32 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

DSC was sold last year.

Whom/where is the new owner?

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:31:39 GMT, "Bob Swinney"
wrote:

Can't remember the name, matter-of-fact I just threw it out during the
great
dumpster filling of 2003. Most of the current burgler alarm equipment is
made by ADEMCO.

Some..some..of the current alarm equipment is rebadged Ademco.
Particulary those sold by the slash and run companies whom install an
alarm system for $19.95 and monitor it for $24 a month for a
gazzillion years.

DSC, Napco and a host of other good controls are made by their own
factories. Im rather fond of DSC controls myself. Made in Canada.

Gunner, Tech Services manager for an alarm/data/communications company
for 17 yrs, before getting into the machine tool business in '97
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

Tony wrote:
Tyco

Which also owns Simplex, and they make a proprietary DSC panel for Simplex.
If Simplex is involved in the install that's what you'll get if you're not
careful. I chose DSC for a large job including access doors several years
ago and they worked out pretty well. They had an edge over the similar class
of NAPCO panel at the time as far as the number of zones. We considered
adding the access control to the JCI Metasys system but it was way too
costly and the functions were limited.





"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:14:32 GMT, "Tony"
wrote:

DSC was sold last year.

Whom/where is the new owner?

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:31:39 GMT, "Bob Swinney"
wrote:

Can't remember the name, matter-of-fact I just threw it out
during the great dumpster filling of 2003. Most of the current
burgler alarm equipment is made by ADEMCO.

Some..some..of the current alarm equipment is rebadged Ademco.
Particulary those sold by the slash and run companies whom install
an alarm system for $19.95 and monitor it for $24 a month for a
gazzillion years.

DSC, Napco and a host of other good controls are made by their own
factories. Im rather fond of DSC controls myself. Made in Canada.

Gunner, Tech Services manager for an alarm/data/communications
company for 17 yrs, before getting into the machine tool business
in '97 "At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:45:29 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

Tyco

Weird. Why would Tyco ...never mind..diversification.
Hope they dont **** it up.

Gunner



"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:14:32 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

DSC was sold last year.

Whom/where is the new owner?

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:31:39 GMT, "Bob Swinney"
wrote:

Can't remember the name, matter-of-fact I just threw it out during the
great
dumpster filling of 2003. Most of the current burgler alarm equipment
is
made by ADEMCO.

Some..some..of the current alarm equipment is rebadged Ademco.
Particulary those sold by the slash and run companies whom install an
alarm system for $19.95 and monitor it for $24 a month for a
gazzillion years.

DSC, Napco and a host of other good controls are made by their own
factories. Im rather fond of DSC controls myself. Made in Canada.

Gunner, Tech Services manager for an alarm/data/communications company
for 17 yrs, before getting into the machine tool business in '97
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll

Tyco also owns ADT, so they have a ready market for their products.


"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:45:29 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

Tyco

Weird. Why would Tyco ...never mind..diversification.
Hope they dont **** it up.

Gunner



"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:14:32 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

DSC was sold last year.

Whom/where is the new owner?

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:31:39 GMT, "Bob Swinney"

wrote:

Can't remember the name, matter-of-fact I just threw it out during
the
great
dumpster filling of 2003. Most of the current burgler alarm
equipment
is
made by ADEMCO.

Some..some..of the current alarm equipment is rebadged Ademco.
Particulary those sold by the slash and run companies whom install
an
alarm system for $19.95 and monitor it for $24 a month for a
gazzillion years.

DSC, Napco and a host of other good controls are made by their own
factories. Im rather fond of DSC controls myself. Made in Canada.

Gunner, Tech Services manager for an alarm/data/communications
company
for 17 yrs, before getting into the machine tool business in '97
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:56:37 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

Tyco also owns ADT, so they have a ready market for their products.


Gotcha. Will they still be selling under the DSC name?

Gunner

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:45:29 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

Tyco

Weird. Why would Tyco ...never mind..diversification.
Hope they dont **** it up.

Gunner



"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:14:32 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

DSC was sold last year.

Whom/where is the new owner?

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:31:39 GMT, "Bob Swinney"

wrote:

Can't remember the name, matter-of-fact I just threw it out during
the
great
dumpster filling of 2003. Most of the current burgler alarm
equipment
is
made by ADEMCO.

Some..some..of the current alarm equipment is rebadged Ademco.
Particulary those sold by the slash and run companies whom install
an
alarm system for $19.95 and monitor it for $24 a month for a
gazzillion years.

DSC, Napco and a host of other good controls are made by their own
factories. Im rather fond of DSC controls myself. Made in Canada.

Gunner, Tech Services manager for an alarm/data/communications
company
for 17 yrs, before getting into the machine tool business in '97
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:56:37 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

Tyco also owns ADT, so they have a ready market for their products.


BTW...if you ever run across a PC3000 DSC control, mine went west and I
need to replace it. I have the plain english LCD displays so cannot
afford to replace everything. Even an unlocked 1500/1550 would probably
work, if I can get a key pad or two.

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:45:29 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

Tyco

Weird. Why would Tyco ...never mind..diversification.
Hope they dont **** it up.

Gunner



"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:14:32 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

DSC was sold last year.

Whom/where is the new owner?

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:31:39 GMT, "Bob Swinney"

wrote:

Can't remember the name, matter-of-fact I just threw it out during
the
great
dumpster filling of 2003. Most of the current burgler alarm
equipment
is
made by ADEMCO.

Some..some..of the current alarm equipment is rebadged Ademco.
Particulary those sold by the slash and run companies whom install
an
alarm system for $19.95 and monitor it for $24 a month for a
gazzillion years.

DSC, Napco and a host of other good controls are made by their own
factories. Im rather fond of DSC controls myself. Made in Canada.

Gunner, Tech Services manager for an alarm/data/communications
company
for 17 yrs, before getting into the machine tool business in '97
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll

This thread caught my attention as I have two locations that need
updated/new alarm systems. Are there any good online sources for alarm
systems/parts/components? I'm very much a "do-it-yourself" type of person
and installing my own systems appeals to me.

Thanks!
-Dan

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:56:37 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

Tyco also owns ADT, so they have a ready market for their products.


BTW...if you ever run across a PC3000 DSC control, mine went west and I
need to replace it. I have the plain english LCD displays so cannot
afford to replace everything. Even an unlocked 1500/1550 would probably
work, if I can get a key pad or two.

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:45:29 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

Tyco

Weird. Why would Tyco ...never mind..diversification.
Hope they dont **** it up.

Gunner



"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:14:32 GMT, "Tony"
wrote:

DSC was sold last year.

Whom/where is the new owner?

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:31:39 GMT, "Bob Swinney"

wrote:

Can't remember the name, matter-of-fact I just threw it out
during
the
great
dumpster filling of 2003. Most of the current burgler alarm
equipment
is
made by ADEMCO.

Some..some..of the current alarm equipment is rebadged Ademco.
Particulary those sold by the slash and run companies whom
install
an
alarm system for $19.95 and monitor it for $24 a month for a
gazzillion years.

DSC, Napco and a host of other good controls are made by their
own
factories. Im rather fond of DSC controls myself. Made in Canada.

Gunner, Tech Services manager for an alarm/data/communications
company
for 17 yrs, before getting into the machine tool business in '97
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll

Dan,

Here's a couple I found through Google.

http://www.alarmcontacts.com/
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/index.html
http://home-automation.org/Security_Systems/

Neighbor that got hit is having an ADT system installed today. $250
installation, $30/mo monitoring.
Homesecuritystore.com has a link to monitoring for $9/mo. Haven't talked
to anyone about that yet, wonder just how good a service they can really
provide at that price. But with the neighbor's ADT install it's obvious
they are offering the system cheap and making $$ on the monitoring.

Jon

I don't use DSC equipment that much, I'm an Ademco dealer. I never could get
the DSC downloader program to work. In the NY area, it's mostly Ademco and
Napco, DSC's are few & far between.
"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:56:37 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

Tyco also owns ADT, so they have a ready market for their products.


BTW...if you ever run across a PC3000 DSC control, mine went west and I
need to replace it. I have the plain english LCD displays so cannot
afford to replace everything. Even an unlocked 1500/1550 would probably
work, if I can get a key pad or two.

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:45:29 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

Tyco

Weird. Why would Tyco ...never mind..diversification.
Hope they dont **** it up.

Gunner



"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:14:32 GMT, "Tony"
wrote:

DSC was sold last year.

Whom/where is the new owner?

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:31:39 GMT, "Bob Swinney"

wrote:

Can't remember the name, matter-of-fact I just threw it out
during
the
great
dumpster filling of 2003. Most of the current burgler alarm
equipment
is
made by ADEMCO.

Some..some..of the current alarm equipment is rebadged Ademco.
Particulary those sold by the slash and run companies whom
install
an
alarm system for $19.95 and monitor it for $24 a month for a
gazzillion years.

DSC, Napco and a host of other good controls are made by their
own
factories. Im rather fond of DSC controls myself. Made in Canada.

Gunner, Tech Services manager for an alarm/data/communications
company
for 17 yrs, before getting into the machine tool business in '97
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll

Tony wrote:

The industry average for monitoring is about $21/month. If someone is
selling monitoring for $9, you have to decide if your security is worth an
extra $10 a month for professional service, or if you want a bargain price,

I understand what you are saying, but the other side of the coin is a
tech spending all day long installing an alarm system for a total cost
of $250 including the control panel, wiring, and all sensors. You can't
tell me that's a profitable price. A good part of the $30/month he's
going to be paying is to cover that install and equipment. Oh yeah,
that's two year contract. An install without the monitoring contract was
quoted at around $1200....


Jon

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:30:45 -0700, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Tony wrote:

The industry average for monitoring is about $21/month. If someone is
selling monitoring for $9, you have to decide if your security is worth an
extra $10 a month for professional service, or if you want a bargain price,

I understand what you are saying, but the other side of the coin is a
tech spending all day long installing an alarm system for a total cost
of $250 including the control panel, wiring, and all sensors. You can't
tell me that's a profitable price. A good part of the $30/month he's
going to be paying is to cover that install and equipment. Oh yeah,
that's two year contract. An install without the monitoring contract was
quoted at around $1200....


Jon

Thats the way the industry works. It wasnt all that long ago that ADT
was selling a $99.95 install the same way. It just about covered the
wholesale equipment cost. And most installers dont get paid all that
much.

Course this is not uniqe to the alarm industry. How many offers do you
get for a free cell phone if you sign up for a year, or two or
three......

And computer printers..they tend to be sold not much over wholesale. The
consumables is where they make their money.

Gunner

--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:50:23 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

I don't use DSC equipment that much, I'm an Ademco dealer. I never could get
the DSC downloader program to work. In the NY area, it's mostly Ademco and
Napco, DSC's are few & far between.

Ive noticed this to be a largely regional thing. I never saw much
Ademco stuff in California/Western States. A lot of DSC/Napco though.
And a bit of Radionics.

Gunner

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:56:37 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

Tyco also owns ADT, so they have a ready market for their products.


BTW...if you ever run across a PC3000 DSC control, mine went west and I
need to replace it. I have the plain english LCD displays so cannot
afford to replace everything. Even an unlocked 1500/1550 would probably
work, if I can get a key pad or two.

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:45:29 GMT, "Tony" wrote:

Tyco

Weird. Why would Tyco ...never mind..diversification.
Hope they dont **** it up.

Gunner



"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:14:32 GMT, "Tony"
wrote:

DSC was sold last year.

Whom/where is the new owner?

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:31:39 GMT, "Bob Swinney"

wrote:

Can't remember the name, matter-of-fact I just threw it out
during
the
great
dumpster filling of 2003. Most of the current burgler alarm
equipment
is
made by ADEMCO.

Some..some..of the current alarm equipment is rebadged Ademco.
Particulary those sold by the slash and run companies whom
install
an
alarm system for $19.95 and monitor it for $24 a month for a
gazzillion years.

DSC, Napco and a host of other good controls are made by their
own
factories. Im rather fond of DSC controls myself. Made in Canada.

Gunner, Tech Services manager for an alarm/data/communications
company
for 17 yrs, before getting into the machine tool business in '97
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:15:10 GMT, Gunner wrote:
And computer printers..they tend to be sold not much over wholesale. The
consumables is where they make their money.

Actually, the last 3 times I've needed consumables for an inkjet printer,
it has wound up cheaper to simply buy a new printer. They're always on
sale somewhere at a giveaway price. The last one was on sale for $49.95
with a $50 mail in rebate. In other words, Canon paid me a nickel to take
the printer. Can't find that kind of deal on ink cartridges.

Gary

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 02:14:18 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:15:10 GMT, Gunner wrote:
And computer printers..they tend to be sold not much over wholesale. The
consumables is where they make their money.

Actually, the last 3 times I've needed consumables for an inkjet printer,
it has wound up cheaper to simply buy a new printer. They're always on
sale somewhere at a giveaway price. The last one was on sale for $49.95
with a $50 mail in rebate. In other words, Canon paid me a nickel to take
the printer. Can't find that kind of deal on ink cartridges.

Gary

Yup. The consumables are more expensive. I refill my own cartridges for
the one remaining inkjet printer I own, for pennies rathe than that $32
cartridge. On the other hand, after giving it some serious thought, Iv
actually gone back to dot matrix printers for most of my printing needs.
I use a printer seldom, and hate finding the ink dried out in a inkjet.
The ribbons for a dot matrix are dirt cheap, I can find them surplus for
a couple bucks, they seem to last 10 times as long before drying out and
they print decently. I seldom do graphics of any sort, and text is
simply outputted to my printers as Text Only/no graphics

I can get dot matrix printers, for as little as $5, and while slower and
not as feature packed..they do text just fine.

Gunner


--
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
--James D. Nicoll

Gunner wrote:

Thats the way the industry works. It wasnt all that long ago that ADT
was selling a $99.95 install the same way. It just about covered the
wholesale equipment cost. And most installers dont get paid all that
much.

Gunner, do you know anything about Alarm Relay Inc, based in San Diego?
They offer monitoring for $8.95/mo through the homesecuritystore
website. They can deal with most alarms except Brinks and some ADT
systems. There is a one-time setup/programming fee and they want a year
paid in advance.
Given they are 1/2 to 1/3 the going rate, I can see where they don't
want the expense/hassle of billing. And that does amount to a default
contract, but only a year at a time.

Jon

In article , Jon Anderson says...

BTW, I'm thinking of bars over the kitchen window on the deck. That will
quickly become the weak point. Only real way to attach is from the
outside, and anyone with a few minutes and a ratchet could remove it.
I've seen tamper proof screws in McMaster, but most are pretty short.
Does anyone know of a good source of tamper proof fasteners? Would like
to find some lag screws with some sort of tamper proof head.
If I can't find any, I'll probably just CNC the heads of a bunch to a
shallow oval shape, case harden them, and make a special socket. Pretty
busy right now however and I'd just as soon buy something if it's
available.

I've used the hex head screws from mcmaster carr, where they
are tightned up via the hex head, and then once tight one
snaps off the hex with a breaker bar, leaving a flat
dome-shaped head. These were machine screws, don't know
if they make similar as lag screws.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Tim,

No, it's standard wood. It's a rental too, so I really can't do a lot of
things I would like to.
I'm debating even asking about this one. Once it's installed he's not
likely to make me take it down...

Jim,

Will have to take another look through McMaster, didn't see the ones you
described. If I could find those in lag bolts, I'd be real happy!

Grant,

Wife works at the county jail, I'm sure I can arrange a visit and look
around.

Thanks!

Jon

Jon Anderson wrote in message ...
BTW, I'm thinking of bars over the kitchen window on the deck. That will
quickly become the weak point. Only real way to attach is from the
outside, and anyone with a few minutes and a ratchet could remove it.
I've seen tamper proof screws in McMaster, but most are pretty short.
Does anyone know of a good source of tamper proof fasteners? Would like
to find some lag screws with some sort of tamper proof head.
If I can't find any, I'll probably just CNC the heads of a bunch to a
shallow oval shape, case harden them, and make a special socket. Pretty
busy right now however and I'd just as soon buy something if it's
available.

Jon

Put a bead of weld on them.

Tim wrote:

I'm assuming your fixing into brickwork?
What about using threaded bar with polyester resin and Shear nuts,
have a look @ www.screwfix.com for examples of all the above.

Good idea but use epoxy not polyester - much stronger bond.

Ted

In article ,
Jon Anderson wrote:
BTW, I'm thinking of bars over the kitchen window on the deck. That will
quickly become the weak point. Only real way to attach is from the
outside, and anyone with a few minutes and a ratchet could remove it.
I've seen tamper proof screws in McMaster, but most are pretty short.
Does anyone know of a good source of tamper proof fasteners? Would like
to find some lag screws with some sort of tamper proof head.
If I can't find any, I'll probably just CNC the heads of a bunch to a
shallow oval shape, case harden them, and make a special socket. Pretty
busy right now however and I'd just as soon buy something if it's
available.

Fast & Dirty:

Get a lag & cut off the head
Get a tamper proof lug nut set from NAPA
Weld nuts to lags

Ted
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% William E. Williams Nic: Ted (*NOT* Bill) %%
%% Systems / Programmer III Phone: (412) 624-HELP %%
%% Help Desk Office: 230 David Lawrence Hall %%

When putting up security bars, do consider making them open able from
the inside, ok? Id hate to find out one of our posters became a Extra
Crispy HSM.

Thanks for the thought!
When we own our own home I'll go to that effort. Here, the kitchen is
too small to get "trapped" in, and the front door is just a couple feet
to the right. Living quarters are the whole upstairs, and we have an
emergency chain ladder that can be let down from any other window.

As for "security" fasteners, while looking to see if there might be any
bargains on ebay for alarm systems, I ran across a very complete set of
drivers for practically every "tamper resistant" fastener on the market,
selling for under $12. So much for that one..
Think I'm going to custom mill the heads of lag bolts in the three-lobe
profile centerless grinders hate. I think I can come up with a profile
sufficiently close to constant diameter that after case hardening,
nobody is going to get much of a bite on them with vise grips, yet still
be able to get a decent grip with a matching driver.

Jon

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:22:46 -0700, Jon Anderson
wrote:

When putting up security bars, do consider making them open able from
the inside, ok? Id hate to find out one of our posters became a Extra
Crispy HSM.

Thanks for the thought!
When we own our own home I'll go to that effort. Here, the kitchen is
too small to get "trapped" in, and the front door is just a couple feet
to the right. Living quarters are the whole upstairs, and we have an
emergency chain ladder that can be let down from any other window.

As for "security" fasteners, while looking to see if there might be any
bargains on ebay for alarm systems, I ran across a very complete set of
drivers for practically every "tamper resistant" fastener on the market,
selling for under $12. So much for that one..
Think I'm going to custom mill the heads of lag bolts in the three-lobe
profile centerless grinders hate. I think I can come up with a profile
sufficiently close to constant diameter that after case hardening,
nobody is going to get much of a bite on them with vise grips, yet still
be able to get a decent grip with a matching driver.

Jon

The last set of security bars I saw installed, had one side hinged,
and the opposite side had a pair of stainless steel rods that came
through the wall, via a couple weathertight grommits, and were secured
on the inside of the room, with a pair of small cotterpin/hitchpins,
backing up a large washer. The cotter pin secured rod ends were under
a small plastic cover, that had a small piece of stainless wire rope
secured to the cotter pins and were pressed on the ends of the rods,
with a wide flange covering the pins and cable for cosmetic reasons,
and then painted to match the walls. One simply pulled on the plastic
covers, they came off the ends of the rods, and one simply continued
to pull and the cotters came out of the rods, and then one simply
pushed the bars out of the way and escaped the flames. They appeared
quite simple to make, very low profile and not the least unsightly,
and if one had drapes, the drapes covered the two covers completly.

Gunner
"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

"One way" lag screws are available at most suppliers. They take a special
tool to install, and are a bear to get out.

Steve

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:22:46 -0700, Jon Anderson
wrote:

When putting up security bars, do consider making them open able from
the inside, ok? Id hate to find out one of our posters became a Extra
Crispy HSM.

Thanks for the thought!
When we own our own home I'll go to that effort. Here, the kitchen is
too small to get "trapped" in, and the front door is just a couple feet
to the right. Living quarters are the whole upstairs, and we have an
emergency chain ladder that can be let down from any other window.

As for "security" fasteners, while looking to see if there might be any
bargains on ebay for alarm systems, I ran across a very complete set of
drivers for practically every "tamper resistant" fastener on the market,
selling for under $12. So much for that one..
Think I'm going to custom mill the heads of lag bolts in the three-lobe
profile centerless grinders hate. I think I can come up with a profile
sufficiently close to constant diameter that after case hardening,
nobody is going to get much of a bite on them with vise grips, yet still
be able to get a decent grip with a matching driver.

Visegrips can grab constant-diameter just fine. Put a bit of taper on
the sides so visegrips can't get a grip but just slide off the
hardened surface when tightened.

After you've made 'em and case-hardened 'em, I'd zinc plate them for
you if you'd like, no charge. It only takes a few minutes.

Tim wrote:

Is there a Stats page anywhere online that tests both epoxy and
polyester resins for stud fixing strengths?

Not that I know of but if you pick up a Rawl fastner catalog, you'll
find that their strongest method for fastening to concrete is threaded
rod epoxied into a drilled hole. In general, polyester is not known for
high bond strengths.

Ted

And lo, it came about, that on Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:15:10 GMT in
rec.crafts.metalworking , Gunner was inspired to utter:



Thats the way the industry works. It wasnt all that long ago that ADT
was selling a $99.95 install the same way. It just about covered the
wholesale equipment cost. And most installers dont get paid all that
much.

Course this is not uniqe to the alarm industry. How many offers do you
get for a free cell phone if you sign up for a year, or two or
three......

And computer printers..they tend to be sold not much over wholesale. The
consumables is where they make their money.

Don't forget Safety Razors. Gillete gave them away - the money was in the
blades.

And the first serious toothpick manufacturer sent a "shill" round to
restaurants to eat dinner, and then make a small scene about having something
stuck in his teeth and "no toothpicks?".

And let us not forget that it was the printing press which created a
problem it could solve (illiteracy wasn't a "problem" when books were the
equivalent of $20,000 - and up.).

Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle.


pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
The cliche is that history rarely repeats herself. Usually she just
lets fly with a frying pan and yells "Why weren't you listening
the first time!?"

And lo, it came about, that on Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:22:46 -0700 in
rec.crafts.metalworking , Jon Anderson was inspired
to utter:


As for "security" fasteners, while looking to see if there might be any
bargains on ebay for alarm systems, I ran across a very complete set of
drivers for practically every "tamper resistant" fastener on the market,
selling for under $12. So much for that one..

Remember, those are "tamper resistant." Like locks, they keep out the
honest and the lazy. (I also remember seeing some bolts with a head which
sheared off when set. Really are "Just tighten it up till it breaks off, then
back off a quarter turn")

You've got two basic sort of thieves: those who will try and finesse their
way in (they buy all the "tamper resistant" drivers, etc.), and those who
figure they can break in, grab the stuff and be gone before the cops arrive.

Given time, security fasteners aren't a problem. even the headless ones
will grind off :-)
Or I can always hook a cable from the grill to the back of a vehicle and
just pull them off. Okay, I may need to get a bigger truck ...

toodles
pyotr



--
pyotr filipivich
The cliche is that history rarely repeats herself. Usually she just
lets fly with a frying pan and yells "Why weren't you listening
the first time!?"

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:39:10 GMT, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Given time, security fasteners aren't a problem. even the headless ones
will grind off :-)
Or I can always hook a cable from the grill to the back of a vehicle and
just pull them off. Okay, I may need to get a bigger truck ...

Thieves used a backhoe to rob a convenience store here this morning.
They ripped an ATM out of the store and loaded it on a truck. They left
the (stolen) backhoe behind.

The tragedy of this theft is that they crushed 100 cases of beer with
the backhoe while they were ripping the ATM out of the store. Police
have no suspects.

Gary

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 03:03:57 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

The tragedy of this theft is that they crushed 100 cases of beer with
the backhoe while they were ripping the ATM out of the store. Police
have no suspects.


Tragedy? It was only that mainstream budmillercoors **** right? It
was not like it was a good home made beer or anything.



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 06:50:10 -0700, Jon Anderson wrote:
I can't exactly complain, but I've gotten way to busy to take time to
mess with my own tri-lobed lag screw head, but soon... Decided I'm going
to weld a shallow ring around the bolt heads, such that the custom
socket I'll make will fit over the head, but prevent grabbing the head
with visegrips.

Why not just tack weld the heads to the frame after you screw them
down? That'll make them "tamper proof" for anyone without an angle
grinder or a torch. Your bars aren't tamper proof against the latter
tools anyway.

Gary

Gary Coffman wrote:

Why not just tack weld the heads to the frame after you screw them
down? That'll make them "tamper proof" for anyone without an angle
grinder or a torch. Your bars aren't tamper proof against the latter
tools anyway.

Kitchen window is a LONG way from the 220 outlet. Yeah, I could beg,
borrow, or maybe even rent a 110v wire welder, but the landlord will
look upon bars much more favorably if I show him it can easily be
removed with a special tool.
Renting sucks really, there's a lot of things I'd like to do here but
there's a limit to how much work I'm going to put into something that
doesn't belong to me.

Jon