I'm building a large wine cellar in the basement, and would like to make it
reasonably fire resistant, since there will be a valuable inventory in
there. A proper steel (metal content) fire door and frame, new, from Home
Despot is around $300. What are my chances of finding one from a building
that's being gutted, or from a building materials salvage dealer in the NYC
area? Any suggestions? Thanks

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in message
...
I'm building a large wine cellar in the basement, and would like to make
it
reasonably fire resistant, since there will be a valuable inventory in
there. A proper steel (metal content) fire door and frame, new, from Home
Despot is around $300. What are my chances of finding one from a building
that's being gutted, or from a building materials salvage dealer in the
NYC
area? Any suggestions? Thanks

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

Sorry, no advice on your question, but do yourself a favor and investigate
industrial steel doors before you buy. They will be priced similarly, but
are a quantum leap better. I used Curries doors and frames in the
construction of our shop, and recommend them highly, especially after
purchasing a couple of metal clad doors for the interior. If I had it to do
over, I'd have never bought the metal clad ones. The slightest contact,
even with soft materials, yields creases in the ever so thin skin.

Harold

"Bob Chilcoat" (clip) Any suggestions? (clip)^^^^^^^^^^^
Unless you make the entire storage room out of steel or thick concrete, I
don't see how an expensive steel door gains you much. Why not build a door
out of several layers of sheet rock? That ought to be more fire retardant
than the walls around it, or the floor above it.

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:42:32 -0400, Bob Chilcoat wrote:

I'm building a large wine cellar in the basement, and would like to make it
reasonably fire resistant, since there will be a valuable inventory in
there. A proper steel (metal content) fire door and frame, new, from Home
Despot is around $300. What are my chances of finding one from a building
that's being gutted, or from a building materials salvage dealer in the NYC
area? Any suggestions? Thanks

Shodl be able to. Fire doors are made as a set, with the door, closer, lock
and frame made and tested as a unit. There is usually a plate on the door
edge with it's fire rating (minutes resistance to a "standard" fire). The
rating of the door has to match or exceed that of the walls surrounding the
room. Most also have brush seals to keep smoke out of the room - a good
idea in this case to stop smoke damage.
The walls of the room will ahve to be fire rated - light framing with fire
gypsum board (Type X board IIRC in the US) will do. Read and follow the
instructions of the manufactuers regarding framing, installation and
stopping - it is important if you want it to work. Stop and seal all the
penetrations, like cable holes as well.
You could always plumb in some sprinkler heads as well...

Geoff

My plan is to wall off one end of the basement with steel studs, and then
use double thickness fire-rated sheetrock on both sides of the wall, with
fiberglass insulation between the studs. In addition, the ceiling will be
similar below the joists. The insulation will make the whole room easy to
maintain at the right temperature, and the fire-resistant walls should give
me 4-6 hours of endurance. Nevertheless, I'll still need the door to hold
up. That's why I'm trying to find an industrial fire door that's cheaper
than buying one new.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Geoff M" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:42:32 -0400, Bob Chilcoat wrote:

I'm building a large wine cellar in the basement, and would like to make
it
reasonably fire resistant, since there will be a valuable inventory in
there. A proper steel (metal content) fire door and frame, new, from
Home
Despot is around $300. What are my chances of finding one from a
building
that's being gutted, or from a building materials salvage dealer in the
NYC
area? Any suggestions? Thanks

Shodl be able to. Fire doors are made as a set, with the door, closer,
lock
and frame made and tested as a unit. There is usually a plate on the door
edge with it's fire rating (minutes resistance to a "standard" fire). The
rating of the door has to match or exceed that of the walls surrounding
the
room. Most also have brush seals to keep smoke out of the room - a good
idea in this case to stop smoke damage.
The walls of the room will ahve to be fire rated - light framing with fire
gypsum board (Type X board IIRC in the US) will do. Read and follow the
instructions of the manufactuers regarding framing, installation and
stopping - it is important if you want it to work. Stop and seal all the
penetrations, like cable holes as well.
You could always plumb in some sprinkler heads as well...

Geoff

"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in message
...
My plan is to wall off one end of the basement with steel studs, and then
use double thickness fire-rated sheetrock on both sides of the wall, with
fiberglass insulation between the studs. In addition, the ceiling will be
similar below the joists. The insulation will make the whole room easy to
maintain at the right temperature, and the fire-resistant walls should
give me 4-6 hours of endurance. Nevertheless, I'll still need the door to
hold up. That's why I'm trying to find an industrial fire door that's
cheaper than buying one new.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


Hey Bob,

There is also a special "firestop" caulking that is used for wire
penetrations, around pipes, etc.
Use this with your plan and you should be golden....

Good luck with it...

Jeff

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:45:04 -0400, "Bob Chilcoat"
wrote:

My plan is to wall off one end of the basement with steel studs, and then
use double thickness fire-rated sheetrock on both sides of the wall, with
fiberglass insulation between the studs. In addition, the ceiling will be
similar below the joists. The insulation will make the whole room easy to
maintain at the right temperature, and the fire-resistant walls should give
me 4-6 hours of endurance. Nevertheless, I'll still need the door to hold
up. That's why I'm trying to find an industrial fire door that's cheaper
than buying one new.
So how many bottles of wine can you drink in 4 to 6 hours? Wouldn't it
be better to just wait outside? Unless it's awfully good wine. Then
maybe it's better to drink it all in 4 hours than to spend the rest of
your life imagining how good it would have been.
Cheers!
Eric R Snow

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:45:04 -0400, "Bob Chilcoat"
wrote:

My plan is to wall off one end of the basement with steel studs, and then
use double thickness fire-rated sheetrock on both sides of the wall, with
fiberglass insulation between the studs. In addition, the ceiling will be
similar below the joists. The insulation will make the whole room easy to
maintain at the right temperature, and the fire-resistant walls should give
me 4-6 hours of endurance. Nevertheless, I'll still need the door to hold
up. That's why I'm trying to find an industrial fire door that's cheaper
than buying one new.

I have just gone through this sort of info to build a boiler room that
the department of buildings decided was necessary (same boiler sat in
the same place for 50 years, suddenly it is a fire hazard).

Two sheets of 5/8 type x drywall on both sides will only get you a
maximum of a 2 hr rating. To get 4 hr you need 4 sheets min 1/2 in
each, staggered joints on each side. If you have wooden joists, the
best you can hope for on the ceiling is 2 hr. That is for min 10"
nominal joists and 1 1/2" wood flooring. One sheet of 5/8 type x
screwed to the joists, then furred with metal furring and another
sheet of 5/8 firecode screwed to them.

But that's ok. Most doors are only rated 1 1/2 hr. and if the rest of
your house has been burning for a couple of hours, it has probably
collapsed into the basement.

While a used door will get you some protection, the jamb and it's
mounting technique are an integral part of the fire rating. You might
get lucky and find a used one with the right size and mounting
strategy to fit your wall, but it is probably cheaper to pay the borg
their forty pieces of silver.

Consider yourself lucky. Because of a 6'8" ceiling height, my boiler
room needed 2 custom made rated firedoors. $750 each.

Paul K. Dickman

Suppliers sometimes have discounted new ones that are damaged or
weren't made right. My steel front door had a slight, easily filled
dent and the fire door between the garage and house has a
wire-reinforced window a fraction of an inch larger than the Mass. fire
code for industrial buildings allows (I live in NH).
JimW

I have a local architectual salvage dealer that has a huge stock of fire
doors (among a LOT of other stuff!) Most office buildings will use 20
minute fire doors for standard office doors so they have lots of doors
from any remodel. Prices seem to be fair, around half of new for really
nice stuff and going down from there for damaged spots.

Try looking in the yellow pages under "salvage", look for the word
"architectual" in the name or description.

Bob Chilcoat wrote:

I'm building a large wine cellar in the basement, and would like to make it
reasonably fire resistant, since there will be a valuable inventory in
there. A proper steel (metal content) fire door and frame, new, from Home
Despot is around $300. What are my chances of finding one from a building
that's being gutted, or from a building materials salvage dealer in the NYC
area? Any suggestions? Thanks

Roy, where are you located. I tried that route, but so far have found no
one in the NY metro area who has these sort of doors.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"RoyJ" wrote in message
. net...
I have a local architectual salvage dealer that has a huge stock of fire
doors (among a LOT of other stuff!) Most office buildings will use 20
minute fire doors for standard office doors so they have lots of doors from
any remodel. Prices seem to be fair, around half of new for really nice
stuff and going down from there for damaged spots.

Try looking in the yellow pages under "salvage", look for the word
"architectual" in the name or description.

None of the good, cheap sources around here pay $$$ to be in the Yellow
Pages. I find stuff through friends in construction, second-hand and
surplus shop owners, scrap-metal dealers, et al. I used to prowl Canal
St in NYC and a few spots in NJ for such goodies. Anybody want an old
wire recorder I found in a junk shop near Asbury Park?

JimW, currently plumbing in a 3HP 60 Gal air compressor assembled from
parts for $100.

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:54:40 GMT, RoyJ wrote:

I have a local architectual salvage dealer that has a huge stock of fire
doors (among a LOT of other stuff!) Most office buildings will use 20
minute fire doors for standard office doors so they have lots of doors
from any remodel. Prices seem to be fair, around half of new for really
nice stuff and going down from there for damaged spots.

Try looking in the yellow pages under "salvage", look for the word
"architectual" in the name or description.

Also check your local Habitat for Humanity outlet. They often have
these, and will occasionally take your name and let you know if they
get any.

Gunner


Bob Chilcoat wrote:

I'm building a large wine cellar in the basement, and would like to make it
reasonably fire resistant, since there will be a valuable inventory in
there. A proper steel (metal content) fire door and frame, new, from Home
Despot is around $300. What are my chances of finding one from a building
that's being gutted, or from a building materials salvage dealer in the NYC
area? Any suggestions? Thanks


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Bob,
You better hurry and buy what you saw. My cost on a 1 hour rated
door is $245. A label jamb is about $140. Add LCN closer, Falcon
mortise lockset, air seal, bottom sweep, and ball bearing hinges I
go over 600 quick.

Any 18 gauge commercial metal door and jamb will make 45 minutes.
Your biggest problem will be finding a jamb throat that will take
studs and 2 layers of rock on both sides. "Normal" 5 and 3/4
jamb has a 4 and 7/8 throat.

2 and 1/2 " studs with double rock will be slightly over 5:, a
mighty tight fit to shove the rock into. You can run the finish
layers with J mold against the jamb, but will look a bit strange.


(top posted for your convenience)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in message
...
I'm building a large wine cellar in the basement, and would like
to make it reasonably fire resistant, since there will be a
valuable inventory in there. A proper steel (metal content)
fire door and frame, new, from Home Despot is around $300. What
are my chances of finding one from a building that's being
gutted, or from a building materials salvage dealer in the NYC
area? Any suggestions? Thanks

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

Bob Chilcoat wrote in article
...
I'm building a large wine cellar in the basement, and would like to make
it
reasonably fire resistant, since there will be a valuable inventory in
there. A proper steel (metal content) fire door and frame, new, from
Home
Despot is around $300. What are my chances of finding one from a
building
that's being gutted, or from a building materials salvage dealer in the
NYC
area? Any suggestions? Thanks

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)






First stop should be your insurance agent to find out if such a door would
qualify for insurance coverage.....

After the fire is no time to have the insurance company say, "Sorry, that
wasn't a matched door and frame......OR That was a used, damaged
door.......no coverage."

I am a Field College Trainer at Home Depot, and, for similar liability
reasons, we destroy ANY returned fire door that has been removed from its
original box - whether or not it has actually been installed.

A previously installed door may have been damaged during
installation/removal, or in the case of multi-door replacements, it may
have been mis-matched with a differently serial-numbered frame.

In any case, the insurance company is likely to not pay if such a door has
been installed.

Now, if your insurance refuses to pay based on the used/returned door you
bought from Home Depot, does anybody want to guess who will be next in the
gun site?

On a new door, we have the manufacturer and its certification processes to
fall back on.

On a used/returned door, we have no way of knowing if it has, somehow, been
compromised.

It is cheaper for us to destroy it.

In your case, it would be cheaper to check with your insurance company
BEFORE the need to file a claim arises.

Bob Chilcoat wrote:

What are my chances of finding one from a building
that's being gutted, or from a building materials salvage dealer in the NYC
area? Any suggestions? Thanks


I'd say chances are very good. In an earlier part of my career, I've
filled dumpsters with such doors. You'll want to look for a "labled"
door, that is, one with a UL label with some denotation of a 2 hour fire
rating. As time has passed, I've forgotten what the rating is, but
IIRC, it's a "C" labeled door. Look for commercial remodeling sites.
Multi story buildings usually have C labeled doors in stairwells.
Hospitals have large numbers of these doors.

Gary Brady
Austin, TX