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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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What is the frost line for Kentucky?
I am goign to build a pole barn. I need to extend the posts 6 inches
below the frost line. How do I find out what the frost line is for my area? |
#2
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Your local county extension office should be able to tell you what the projected frost line is in your area, or perhaps a local contractor. Frost line here in Alabama is the grass line! My water line from the main is only 6 to 8 inches deep...... On 20 Jun 2005 07:03:00 -0700, wrote: ===I am goign to build a pole barn. I need to extend the posts 6 inches ===below the frost line. How do I find out what the frost line is for my ===area? ============================================== Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked! "The original frugal ponder" ~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o |
#3
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This Kentucky source indicates a frost line of 30", but you would still
be best asking the local practices from the local building inspector, as frost lines can vary. The frost line is more or less arbitary, but is intended to cover most years. In a really cold year the frost can go lower and freeze pipes. http://www.crestviewhills.com/pdf/checklist_decks.pdf Richard wrote: I am goign to build a pole barn. I need to extend the posts 6 inches below the frost line. How do I find out what the frost line is for my area? |
#4
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===I am goign to build a pole barn. I need to extend the posts 6 inches ===below the frost line. How do I find out what the frost line is for my ===area? I used to live in Kansas. Same latittude, frost line was three feet for water lines. If you think a severe thunderstrom might happen sometime in the life of the barn, I'd go deeper than that. Poles hold your barn from blowing away. Karl |
#5
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Even if they are concreted? The problem I am having is I will have to
do all this myself and it is hard to handle a big pole. I was hoping to use a 4x6 2 feet in the ground and concreteing all holes. |
#6
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wrote in message oups.com... Even if they are concreted? The problem I am having is I will have to do all this myself and it is hard to handle a big pole. I was hoping to use a 4x6 2 feet in the ground and concreteing all holes. stryped, this discussion has been going on for weeks, and you've still not gotten the point -- The barn won't tend to simply shear horizontally in a strong wind. Rather, it will shear diagonally, torquing all the poles at the point where they enter the soil. If the poles are sized to take the expected wind-shear, then the limiting factor determining whether or not they "undig" themselves from the ground is how deep they are planted. Do this: Get a strong, sound 2x4, and plant it like a pole two feet deep. Do another one four inches deep. Now, hold the top of each pole steady upright while you try to push the bottom of the pole horizontally. Can't, can you? That's the action you seem to think the wind will have. No. Now pull on the top of the pole horizontally. You'll probably break the two foot deep one; You'll easily tip the 4-incher right out of the soil. THAT is the action wind will have on your barn. Concrete collars around the poles will only provide resistance to that kind of force if they are as deep as recommended for the pole. Collars are more designed for straight-line lateral forces. LLoyd |
#7
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I agree with almost every thing you said except the part about the
collars. In a former life I did the engineering for a factory built house company. Lots of our sales were for vacation homes built on piles. The best information on piles or poles I found in a pamphlet put out by the Outdoor Advertising Association. Billboards get lots of wind loads. They recommended concrete collars around the upper third of the pole. The reason was to increase the effective diameter of the pole. The soil at the bottom of the pole has a lot of weight above it, and will resist the pole moving. At the top of the pole the earth does not resist moving as well. So a concrete collar increases the diameter and makes the pole more ridgid. Don't believe me. Bury that two by four end about two feet deep. Now rock the top back and forth. The bottom of the two by four harly moves, but the ground around the top does. Dan Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote: Concrete collars around the poles will only provide resistance to that kind of force if they are as deep as recommended for the pole. Collars are more designed for straight-line lateral forces. LLoyd |
#8
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So, what are you saying? Two feet is not deep enough?
The lumber store told me it was ok at that depth if using concrete. I am sorry but I think a 4 foot hole is overkill. |
#9
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"~Roy~" wrote in message ... Your local county extension office should be able to tell you what the projected frost line is in your area, or perhaps a local contractor. Frost line here in Alabama is the grass line! My water line from the main is only 6 to 8 inches deep...... Man that would be sweet - where I live it's 7.5 feet. We don't get hurricanes here though Laurie Forbes |
#10
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I am sorry but I think a 4 foot hole is overkill. Its a free country, do what you want. Just remember the story of the three pigs when you house blows down. Karl |
#11
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I think that 2 feet is not enough. I would go for at least three feet
and depending on how big your barn is I would use bigger poles too. It is not all that hard to put the poles in the holes. Just dig out to the side of the hole a shallow trench about six inches deep and maybe three feet long. Roll the pole so the end in over the hole and the pole is in line with the trench. Lift on the top end and walk toward the hole. For telephone poles put a two by six in the hole for the end of the pole to rest against and use a couple of come-a-longs so that the pole will not pivot sideways. Dan |
#12
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wrote in message ups.com... They recommended concrete collars around the upper third of the pole. The reason was to increase the effective diameter of the pole. The soil at the bottom of the pole has a lot of weight above it, and will resist the pole moving. At the top of the pole the earth does not resist moving as well. So a concrete collar increases the diameter and makes the pole more ridgid. No, I do believe you. The recent discussion has been more about "pads" as collars than about going down a substantial distance. You're 100% right. But, if you will, comment about the value of just a 6"-10" thick pad at the very top of a pole's earth contact. LLoyd |
#13
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Building codes in Lexington require 18" W footers 42" below grade thus a
total of 42" depth by 18" wide. That means that using an 18" wide footer and the bottom is at 42" from the top of your finished elevation you will meet the building code. This is determined by the frost line and as previous people have indicated that is around 30" here in Kentucky. If you are building a pole barn I'd rent a two man auger, sink my holes 48", stand my poles plumb and fill with concrete to the top. Obviously you will have previously determined the wind direction and positioned the barn so that the least amount of eave under hang is getting the most general amount of wind. Having built my share of pole sheds in windy N Texas I can tell you that if you have a roof with an open area that will catch the wind it WILL catch the wind and become a huge sail. Sinking the poles just in earth is OK but with the termites here in KY the concrete gives you that much extra protection from those nasty creatures. Pedroman "Richard Ferguson" wrote in message ... This Kentucky source indicates a frost line of 30", but you would still be best asking the local practices from the local building inspector, as frost lines can vary. The frost line is more or less arbitary, but is intended to cover most years. In a really cold year the frost can go lower and freeze pipes. http://www.crestviewhills.com/pdf/checklist_decks.pdf Richard wrote: I am goign to build a pole barn. I need to extend the posts 6 inches below the frost line. How do I find out what the frost line is for my area? |
#14
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I am thinking 24x32.
By the way guys, the local ag center says the frost line is 24 inches. |
#16
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#17
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#18
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In article lTEte.88528$xm3.40707@attbi_s21,
"Pedro" wrote: Having built my share of pole sheds in windy N Texas I can tell you that if you have a roof with an open area that will catch the wind it WILL catch the wind and become a huge sail. Sinking the poles just in earth is OK but with the termites here in KY the concrete gives you that much extra protection from those nasty creatures. Depends on the area, I find that concrete rots out poles faster. Also. I have a pole shed with all open areas, no walls at all. It's sheltered so the wind doesn't take the roof off. -- Free men own guns, slaves don't www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/ |
#20
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Well it would be better than nothing. 10 inches would be about right
for a pole that was only set in about 2 1/2 feet. If I were only going to put in six inches of concrete, I would put it in about four to six inches below the surface. Depending on what the soil is like, using cement mixed with the soil is another option. Often a lot easier to do than using concrete in areas where one can't get a truck close to the site. Dan Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote: No, I do believe you. The recent discussion has been more about "pads" as collars than about going down a substantial distance. You're 100% right. But, if you will, comment about the value of just a 6"-10" thick pad at the very top of a pole's earth contact. LLoyd |
#21
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Dave Hinz wrote:
wrote: [in reply to "Pedro"] What do you mean "stand my holes plumb"? When you install the holes into the ground, make sure you don't set 'em in crooked. Good advice, of course, but stryped actually misquoted Pedro, who wrote: "stand my poles plumb", (poles, not holes) ie, line the poles up and make them vertical. AIUI, about a dozen different people have told stryped to put the poles 4' deep -- to handle wind load -- but he is still talking about 2' deep -- "easier to put in the poles". It may be that stryped is planning to lay each pole on the ground by its hole and then lean over, pick it up by hand, and put it in. Obviously he needs to be educated about a better way to handle the poles. For example, line up the back of your trailer with the hole; let about 3' of pole overhang; cinch the pole to the trailer edge like a hinge; swing the pole up, maybe using an A-frame on the trailer; uncinch the pole and let it drop straight down. |
#22
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#23
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On 21 Jun 2005 11:28:55 -0700, jim rozen
wrote: In article .com, says... I am sorry but I think a 4 foot hole is overkill. Why be sorry? Just put 'em in as deep as you feel like, I'm sure it will work out OK. And if it doesn't work out, he'll be chasing his barn and all the contents through the countryside in the next really stiff windstorm. Of course, when that outbuilding blows across the property line into the neighbors house and demolishes it, a simple "sorry" ain't gonna cut it. (And your homeowners insurance carrier will be looking for any convenient "out" so they don't have to pay for it. No building permit, no engineering, no inspections is a perfect excuse for them.) Think about it... Erecting the building to meet or exceed the local building codes is the right way to do it, and whenever in doubt go a bit "overkill". If you overbuild it a bit (or a lot) in good faith, and you can prove it with all the inspections and engineering papers and a pile of construction photographs - and something bad still happens - they can't come back at you nearly as easily. -- Bruce -- -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. |
#24
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In article , Bruce L. Bergman
says... I am sorry but I think a 4 foot hole is overkill. Why be sorry? Just put 'em in as deep as you feel like, I'm sure it will work out OK. And if it doesn't work out, he'll be chasing his barn and all the contents through the countryside in the next really stiff windstorm. Well hold on now. I think it sounds like he has his mind flat-out made up on the issue. I've come to the conclusion (after many experiences like this) that folks who have their "mind made up" about the answer to a question they've posed should be treated politely to the utmost. I've seen over a half-dozen good comments from folks here about how his two foot answer is higly suspect, at best. Sometimes the *best* way to convince folks that their plan of action is going to result in a screw-up is to listen to their strong arguments in favor of it, and then do NOT give any substantive refutation of approach. Do NOT give them something to nit-pick at, and do NOT be a nay-sayer. Just say, hmm, sounds like you've got the whole thing planned out just the way you want it. Hope it works out for the best. I'm sure it'll be a lovely barn. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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