I am goign to build a pole barn. I need to extend the posts 6 inches
below the frost line. How do I find out what the frost line is for my
area?

Your local county extension office should be able to tell you what
the projected frost line is in your area, or perhaps a local
contractor.

Frost line here in Alabama is the grass line! My water line from the
main is only 6 to 8 inches deep......


On 20 Jun 2005 07:03:00 -0700, wrote:

===I am goign to build a pole barn. I need to extend the posts 6 inches
===below the frost line. How do I find out what the frost line is for my
===area?


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

This Kentucky source indicates a frost line of 30", but you would still
be best asking the local practices from the local building inspector, as
frost lines can vary. The frost line is more or less arbitary, but is
intended to cover most years. In a really cold year the frost can go
lower and freeze pipes.

http://www.crestviewhills.com/pdf/checklist_decks.pdf

Richard


wrote:
I am goign to build a pole barn. I need to extend the posts 6 inches
below the frost line. How do I find out what the frost line is for my
area?

===I am goign to build a pole barn. I need to extend the posts 6 inches
===below the frost line. How do I find out what the frost line is for my
===area?

I used to live in Kansas. Same latittude, frost line was three feet for
water lines.

If you think a severe thunderstrom might happen sometime in the life of the
barn, I'd go deeper than that. Poles hold your barn from blowing away.

Karl

Even if they are concreted? The problem I am having is I will have to
do all this myself and it is hard to handle a big pole. I was hoping to
use a 4x6 2 feet in the ground and concreteing all holes.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Even if they are concreted? The problem I am having is I will have to
do all this myself and it is hard to handle a big pole. I was hoping to
use a 4x6 2 feet in the ground and concreteing all holes.

stryped, this discussion has been going on for weeks, and you've still not
gotten the point --

The barn won't tend to simply shear horizontally in a strong wind. Rather,
it will shear diagonally, torquing all the poles at the point where they
enter the soil. If the poles are sized to take the expected wind-shear,
then the limiting factor determining whether or not they "undig" themselves
from the ground is how deep they are planted.

Do this: Get a strong, sound 2x4, and plant it like a pole two feet deep.
Do another one four inches deep.

Now, hold the top of each pole steady upright while you try to push the
bottom of the pole horizontally. Can't, can you? That's the action you
seem to think the wind will have. No.

Now pull on the top of the pole horizontally. You'll probably break the two
foot deep one; You'll easily tip the 4-incher right out of the soil.

THAT is the action wind will have on your barn.

Concrete collars around the poles will only provide resistance to that kind
of force if they are as deep as recommended for the pole. Collars are more
designed for straight-line lateral forces.

LLoyd

I agree with almost every thing you said except the part about the
collars. In a former life I did the engineering for a factory built
house company. Lots of our sales were for vacation homes built on
piles. The best information on piles or poles I found in a pamphlet
put out by the Outdoor Advertising Association. Billboards get lots of
wind loads.

They recommended concrete collars around the upper third of the pole.
The reason was to increase the effective diameter of the pole. The
soil at the bottom of the pole has a lot of weight above it, and will
resist the pole moving. At the top of the pole the earth does not
resist moving as well. So a concrete collar increases the diameter and
makes the pole more ridgid.

Don't believe me. Bury that two by four end about two feet deep. Now
rock the top back and forth. The bottom of the two by four harly
moves, but the ground around the top does.

Dan

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:


Concrete collars around the poles will only provide resistance to that kind
of force if they are as deep as recommended for the pole. Collars are more
designed for straight-line lateral forces.

LLoyd

So, what are you saying? Two feet is not deep enough?

The lumber store told me it was ok at that depth if using concrete.

I am sorry but I think a 4 foot hole is overkill.

"~Roy~" wrote in message
...

Your local county extension office should be able to tell you what
the projected frost line is in your area, or perhaps a local
contractor.

Frost line here in Alabama is the grass line! My water line from the
main is only 6 to 8 inches deep......


Man that would be sweet - where I live it's 7.5 feet. We don't get
hurricanes here though

Laurie Forbes

I am sorry but I think a 4 foot hole is overkill.

Its a free country, do what you want. Just remember the story of the three
pigs when you house blows down.

Karl

I think that 2 feet is not enough. I would go for at least three feet
and depending on how big your barn is I would use bigger poles too. It
is not all that hard to put the poles in the holes. Just dig out to
the side of the hole a shallow trench about six inches deep and maybe
three feet long. Roll the pole so the end in over the hole and the
pole is in line with the trench. Lift on the top end and walk toward
the hole.

For telephone poles put a two by six in the hole for the end of the
pole to rest against and use a couple of come-a-longs so that the pole
will not pivot sideways.


Dan

wrote in message
ups.com...

They recommended concrete collars around the upper third of the pole.
The reason was to increase the effective diameter of the pole. The
soil at the bottom of the pole has a lot of weight above it, and will
resist the pole moving. At the top of the pole the earth does not
resist moving as well. So a concrete collar increases the diameter and
makes the pole more ridgid.


No, I do believe you. The recent discussion has been more about "pads" as
collars than about going down a substantial distance. You're 100% right.
But, if you will, comment about the value of just a 6"-10" thick pad at the
very top of a pole's earth contact.

LLoyd

Building codes in Lexington require 18" W footers 42" below grade thus a
total of 42" depth by 18" wide. That means that using an 18" wide footer and
the bottom is at 42" from the top of your finished elevation you will meet
the building code. This is determined by the frost line and as previous
people have indicated that is around 30" here in Kentucky. If you are
building a pole barn I'd rent a two man auger, sink my holes 48", stand my
poles plumb and fill with concrete to the top. Obviously you will have
previously determined the wind direction and positioned the barn so that the
least amount of eave under hang is getting the most general amount of wind.

Having built my share of pole sheds in windy N Texas I can tell you that if
you have a roof with an open area that will catch the wind it WILL catch the
wind and become a huge sail. Sinking the poles just in earth is OK but with
the termites here in KY the concrete gives you that much extra protection
from those nasty creatures.

Pedroman

"Richard Ferguson" wrote in message
...
This Kentucky source indicates a frost line of 30", but you would still
be best asking the local practices from the local building inspector, as
frost lines can vary. The frost line is more or less arbitary, but is
intended to cover most years. In a really cold year the frost can go
lower and freeze pipes.

http://www.crestviewhills.com/pdf/checklist_decks.pdf

Richard


wrote:
I am goign to build a pole barn. I need to extend the posts 6 inches
below the frost line. How do I find out what the frost line is for my
area?

I am thinking 24x32.

By the way guys, the local ag center says the frost line is 24 inches.

What do you mean "stand my holes plumb"?

On 20 Jun 2005 13:57:05 -0700, wrote:
What do you mean "stand my holes plumb"?

When you install the holes into the ground, make sure you don't set 'em
in crooked.

wrote:
So, what are you saying? Two feet is not deep enough?

The lumber store told me it was ok at that depth if using concrete.

I am sorry but I think a 4 foot hole is overkill.

Surprised to see this thread still going. You need a system to resist horizontal
loads. If the poles are not deeply embedded then you will need a system of
diagonal braces in every plane (including the roof plane(s)). Even with diagonal
bracing to resist horizontal loads, you will still need a system to resist
uplift. This will usually be concrete footings for the posts. The amount of
concrete needed depends on the weight of the building and the roof area
supported by each pole. In high wind areas in NZ (55 M/s) the requirement is to
design for a uplift of 100Kg/sqr. metre. If the poles are to resist horizontal
loads without diagonal bracing then they are working as cantilevered piles and
the theoretical resistance to movement at the top of the pole goes up as the
square of the depth of embeddment. Deeper is much better. My guess is that 3 or
4 feet of embedment with a concrete collar around the top third of the pole
would be about right. Don't underestimate wind loadings, wind loading goes up
exponentially with wind speed. One useful trick is to set a small concrete
culvert vrtically in the post hole, pack earth and rubble around this to hold it
in place and then you have room to manuever heavy posts into exact alignment
without crud dropping into the post hole as you do so. When you have the post
properly positioned inside the culvert, wedge it in place and and fill the
culvert with concrete. Hey presto!.

In article lTEte.88528$xm3.40707@attbi_s21,
"Pedro" wrote:

Having built my share of pole sheds in windy N Texas I can tell you that if
you have a roof with an open area that will catch the wind it WILL catch the
wind and become a huge sail. Sinking the poles just in earth is OK but with
the termites here in KY the concrete gives you that much extra protection
from those nasty creatures.

Depends on the area, I find that concrete rots out poles faster. Also.
I have a pole shed with all open areas, no walls at all. It's sheltered
so the wind doesn't take the roof off.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

In article .com,
wrote:

So, what are you saying? Two feet is not deep enough?

The lumber store told me it was ok at that depth if using concrete.

I am sorry but I think a 4 foot hole is overkill.


It doesn't matter whay you think, it only matters what the wind thinks.
You will never know if you put the poles too deep, but you will find out
if you put them in too shallow.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Well it would be better than nothing. 10 inches would be about right
for a pole that was only set in about 2 1/2 feet. If I were only going
to put in six inches of concrete, I would put it in about four to six
inches below the surface.

Depending on what the soil is like, using cement mixed with the soil is
another option. Often a lot easier to do than using concrete in areas
where one can't get a truck close to the site.

Dan

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:


No, I do believe you. The recent discussion has been more about "pads" as
collars than about going down a substantial distance. You're 100% right.
But, if you will, comment about the value of just a 6"-10" thick pad at the
very top of a pole's earth contact.

LLoyd

Dave Hinz wrote:
wrote:
[in reply to "Pedro"]
What do you mean "stand my holes plumb"?

When you install the holes into the ground, make sure you don't
set 'em in crooked.

Good advice, of course, but stryped actually misquoted Pedro, who
wrote: "stand my poles plumb", (poles, not holes) ie, line the
poles up and make them vertical.

AIUI, about a dozen different people have told stryped to put
the poles 4' deep -- to handle wind load -- but he is still
talking about 2' deep -- "easier to put in the poles". It may
be that stryped is planning to lay each pole on the ground by
its hole and then lean over, pick it up by hand, and put it
in. Obviously he needs to be educated about a better way
to handle the poles. For example, line up the back of your
trailer with the hole; let about 3' of pole overhang; cinch the
pole to the trailer edge like a hinge; swing the pole up, maybe
using an A-frame on the trailer; uncinch the pole and let it
drop straight down.

In article .com,
says...

I am sorry but I think a 4 foot hole is overkill.

Why be sorry? Just put 'em in as deep as you feel
like, I'm sure it will work out OK.

Jim


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On 21 Jun 2005 11:28:55 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article .com,
says...

I am sorry but I think a 4 foot hole is overkill.

Why be sorry? Just put 'em in as deep as you feel
like, I'm sure it will work out OK.

And if it doesn't work out, he'll be chasing his barn and all the
contents through the countryside in the next really stiff windstorm.
Of course, when that outbuilding blows across the property line into
the neighbors house and demolishes it, a simple "sorry" ain't gonna
cut it.

(And your homeowners insurance carrier will be looking for any
convenient "out" so they don't have to pay for it. No building
permit, no engineering, no inspections is a perfect excuse for them.)

Think about it... Erecting the building to meet or exceed the local
building codes is the right way to do it, and whenever in doubt go a
bit "overkill". If you overbuild it a bit (or a lot) in good faith,
and you can prove it with all the inspections and engineering papers
and a pile of construction photographs - and something bad still
happens - they can't come back at you nearly as easily.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

In article , Bruce L. Bergman
says...

I am sorry but I think a 4 foot hole is overkill.

Why be sorry? Just put 'em in as deep as you feel
like, I'm sure it will work out OK.

And if it doesn't work out, he'll be chasing his barn and all the
contents through the countryside in the next really stiff windstorm.

Well hold on now. I think it sounds like he has his mind
flat-out made up on the issue. I've come to the conclusion
(after many experiences like this) that folks who have their
"mind made up" about the answer to a question they've posed
should be treated politely to the utmost.

I've seen over a half-dozen good comments from folks here
about how his two foot answer is higly suspect, at best.
Sometimes the *best* way to convince folks that their
plan of action is going to result in a screw-up is to listen
to their strong arguments in favor of it, and then do
NOT give any substantive refutation of approach. Do NOT
give them something to nit-pick at, and do NOT be a nay-sayer.

Just say, hmm, sounds like you've got the whole thing
planned out just the way you want it. Hope it works out
for the best. I'm sure it'll be a lovely barn.

Jim


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