I have been practicing welding with my MIG. I think I am getting good
welds. I beat on them, and they don't seem to break.

What I am bugged about is the "fit and finish" of the process. I see sites
that show different welds, and they look great. For example I saw a Ducati
motorcycle frame that claimed to be MIG welded, and it was
superb....apparently no grinding or other cleanup.

Is it just a lack of skill on my part, or is there always a ton of cleanup,
grinding, etc...to get a nice looking fit and finish?

"Jim Newell" wrote in message
...
I have been practicing welding with my MIG. I think I am getting good
welds. I beat on them, and they don't seem to break.

What I am bugged about is the "fit and finish" of the process. I see
sites that show different welds, and they look great. For example I saw a
Ducati motorcycle frame that claimed to be MIG welded, and it was
superb....apparently no grinding or other cleanup.

Is it just a lack of skill on my part, or is there always a ton of
cleanup, grinding, etc...to get a nice looking fit and finish?


Remember that a lot of those welds are done by robots. I can get beyootiful
welds with my MIG, and then, a real groaner. These are identical welds like
repetitious welds when welding wrought iron.

There are some things that robotic welding has over humans. They travel at
an exact speed. On starting a weld, they may have a pause time, or may even
be moving before the arc is struck. When everything is right, higher heat
can be used with less chance of burnthrough. Rule is that the better a
weldor is, the higher heat he can run on the same materials with the same
rod.

But I do agree with you. I see some welds of manufactured goods, and
wonder, "How'd they do that?"

Steve

Don't feel too bad. We alternate between TIG and MIG on race car frames.
When we MIG, it takes an hour of test runs by my best welder to get just
the right voltage, wire speed, and welder confidence. Then he does a
whole frame in less than a couple of hours. No grinding, minimal
spatter, nice tight beads.

Jim Newell wrote:
I have been practicing welding with my MIG. I think I am getting good
welds. I beat on them, and they don't seem to break.

What I am bugged about is the "fit and finish" of the process. I see sites
that show different welds, and they look great. For example I saw a Ducati
motorcycle frame that claimed to be MIG welded, and it was
superb....apparently no grinding or other cleanup.

Is it just a lack of skill on my part, or is there always a ton of cleanup,
grinding, etc...to get a nice looking fit and finish?

RoyJ wrote:
Don't feel too bad. We alternate between TIG and MIG on race car frames.
When we MIG, it takes an hour of test runs by my best welder to get just
the right voltage, wire speed, and welder confidence. Then he does a
whole frame in less than a couple of hours. No grinding, minimal
spatter, nice tight beads.

Yeah, don't get discouraged.. I've found that, when acquiring a new
skill, there's a series of peaks and valleys (if you will).. You'll do
good, and then maybe not so good, keep going and you're doing better.
It's the part of the brain that learns stuff like walking fighting for
control with the conscious part.. Stick with it, that's all you can do.
Consistency is the ticket, watch for what you do that's right and try to
knock off what's wrong.

Listen to the arc, that tells you much in addition to what you see.
Watch your stickout, that's important- especially if the machine isn't
particularly forgiving.

Most of all, don't forget to have fun.

John


Jim Newell wrote:

I have been practicing welding with my MIG. I think I am getting good
welds. I beat on them, and they don't seem to break.

What I am bugged about is the "fit and finish" of the process. I see
sites that show different welds, and they look great. For example I
saw a Ducati motorcycle frame that claimed to be MIG welded, and it
was superb....apparently no grinding or other cleanup.

Is it just a lack of skill on my part, or is there always a ton of
cleanup, grinding, etc...to get a nice looking fit and finish?

On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 03:12:10 GMT, "Jim Newell"
wrote:

I have been practicing welding with my MIG. I think I am getting good
welds. I beat on them, and they don't seem to break.

What I am bugged about is the "fit and finish" of the process. I see sites
that show different welds, and they look great. For example I saw a Ducati
motorcycle frame that claimed to be MIG welded, and it was
superb....apparently no grinding or other cleanup.

Is it just a lack of skill on my part, or is there always a ton of cleanup,
grinding, etc...to get a nice looking fit and finish?



Yes.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

SteveB wrote:

Remember that a lot of those welds are done by robots.

I double this. Most (if not all of mass produced( of the frames that are
MIG/MAG welded are weldet by robots.

Nick


--
Motormodelle / Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
todays SPAMfeed:

What you lack is experience. You shouldn't have to grind the weld
itself. If you use straight CO2 you might have to grind a little
spatter. Using 75/25 Argon/CO2 you should have little or no cleanup.

"footy" wrote in message
...
What you lack is experience. You shouldn't have to grind the weld itself.
If you use straight CO2 you might have to grind a little spatter. Using
75/25 Argon/CO2 you should have little or no cleanup.

I can tell you don't do a lot of welding.

Steve

Gee, that's useful! Just what do you disagree with, asshole.

"SteveB" wrote in message
news:zHOpe.9224$tr.3343@fed1read03...

"Jim Newell" wrote in message
...
I have been practicing welding with my MIG. I think I am getting good
welds. I beat on them, and they don't seem to break.

What I am bugged about is the "fit and finish" of the process. I see
sites that show different welds, and they look great. For example I saw
a Ducati motorcycle frame that claimed to be MIG welded, and it was
superb....apparently no grinding or other cleanup.

Is it just a lack of skill on my part, or is there always a ton of
cleanup, grinding, etc...to get a nice looking fit and finish?


Remember that a lot of those welds are done by robots. I can get
beyootiful welds with my MIG, and then, a real groaner. These are
identical welds like repetitious welds when welding wrought iron.

There are some things that robotic welding has over humans. They travel
at an exact speed. On starting a weld, they may have a pause time, or may
even be moving before the arc is struck. When everything is right, higher
heat can be used with less chance of burnthrough. Rule is that the better
a weldor is, the higher heat he can run on the same materials with the
same rod.

But I do agree with you. I see some welds of manufactured goods, and
wonder, "How'd they do that?"

Steve
A lot of people think MIG welds should look like the "stack of nickels"
characteristic of stick welding. Robots can be programmed with a slight
whipping action but I have read that doing this manually may result in a
lack of root fusion. Maybe the robots are creating a nice convex bead with
freeze lines. It seems like even a perfect straight manual MIG weld does not
have the aesthetic appeal of a nicely done stick bead.

footy wrote:
Gee, that's useful! Just what do you disagree with, asshole.

Well, you certainly *sound* like a welder! :-)

GWE

Well, at least I got that going for me!

"ATP*" wrote

A lot of people think MIG welds should look like the "stack of nickels"
characteristic of stick welding.

A lot of people who don't know anything about welding think that if a weld
looks like a stack of nickels, it is a good weld. The "stack of nickels",
more commonly called "stack of dimes" is achieved using a 6010 electrode
with electrode positive, and a whipping action. A molten puddle is
established, then the electrode whipped out of it long enough for the
puddle, which looks like a human blood corpuscle to harden. Then the
process is repeated. The welds are pretty, but not that sound, as the
fusion is interrupted by the heating/cooling cycle.

Robots can be programmed with a slight
whipping action but I have read that doing this manually may result in a
lack of root fusion.

Bingo!

Maybe the robots are creating a nice convex bead with
freeze lines. It seems like even a perfect straight manual MIG weld does
not have the aesthetic appeal of a nicely done stick bead.

That depends on the rod, and the base material. Thick steel and 7018 rod
gives an outstanding appearing weld, and a very strong one. It is done with
no whipping action.

Steve

"footy" wrote in message
...
Gee, that's useful! Just what do you disagree with, asshole.

I am ass-u-ming that you are referring to my comments in the previous post
of :

"footy" wrote in message
...
What you lack is experience. You shouldn't have to grind the weld itself.
If you use straight CO2 you might have to grind a little spatter. Using
75/25 Argon/CO2 you should have little or no cleanup.

I can tell you don't do a lot of welding.

Steve

You, see, when you post the conversation, it is easier to follow than just
taking one line of a conversation and spewing, which you did, and which
makes no sense to anyone reading one line of spew.

Now, to your point about welding. MIG (GMAW - Gas Metal Arc Welding - is
the technical name, but you knew that, right?) welding can be pretty, and
even, and not need cleanup. But, if there is ANY contamination from oil,
dirt, paint, poor fitup, infiltration of ambient air from the rear of the
weld, or interruption of the shielding gas by air currents, there can be
porosity in the weld that needs to be dressed up. (ground)

You seem to slam others for not being experienced, yet in your own
statements exhibit that you lack the experience needed to state the obvious
regarding porosity in MIG welds.

Steve, who has been welding since 1974, topside, underwater, and in the
dark. ;-)

"SteveB" wrote in message
news:hx5qe.9591$tr.4332@fed1read03...
Steve, who has been welding since 1974, topside, underwater, and in the
dark. ;-)

Ahh big whoop, drop the helmet and you're welding in the dark at high noon.
;-p

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

SteveB wrote:
snip
There are some things that robotic welding has over humans. They travel at
an exact speed. On starting a weld, they may have a pause time, or may even
be moving before the arc is struck. When everything is right, higher heat
can be used with less chance of burnthrough. Rule is that the better a
weldor is, the higher heat he can run on the same materials with the same
rod.

Not to mention that once programmed, in general, curve following is
as easy as doing straight welds.
Few weldors can go at the same speed on tube welds as straight.

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:
snip
There are some things that robotic welding has over humans. They travel
at
an exact speed. On starting a weld, they may have a pause time, or may
even
be moving before the arc is struck. When everything is right, higher
heat
can be used with less chance of burnthrough. Rule is that the better a
weldor is, the higher heat he can run on the same materials with the same
rod.

Not to mention that once programmed, in general, curve following is
as easy as doing straight welds.
Few weldors can go at the same speed on tube welds as straight.

I once went to a welding convention in Las Vegas. It was absolutely
awesome. More there than your brain could take in. One display had a cart
that was tack welded. A robotic welder was doing welding movements, but
without an arc. The positioner would twist and roll the cart so that it
would move to the next weld when the robot was done. So, you had two
movements there. One of the torch head, and the other of the positioner.
Automated welding in conjunction with CNC and CAD/CAM programs is really
impressive.

Steve

On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 03:12:10 GMT, "Jim Newell"
wrote:

I have been practicing welding with my MIG. I think I am getting good
welds. I beat on them, and they don't seem to break.

What I am bugged about is the "fit and finish" of the process. I see sites
that show different welds, and they look great. For example I saw a Ducati
motorcycle frame that claimed to be MIG welded, and it was
superb....apparently no grinding or other cleanup.

Is it just a lack of skill on my part, or is there always a ton of cleanup,
grinding, etc...to get a nice looking fit and finish?

Practice! Try experimenting with your angle of approach, using a
"push" rather than a "drag" approach. Set the heat and wire feed
rate so it "sounds right", then control rate of deposition by
varying rate of progress.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 03:12:10 GMT, "Jim Newell"
wrote:

I have been practicing welding with my MIG. I think I am getting good
welds. I beat on them, and they don't seem to break.

What I am bugged about is the "fit and finish" of the process. I see
sites
that show different welds, and they look great. For example I saw a
Ducati
motorcycle frame that claimed to be MIG welded, and it was
superb....apparently no grinding or other cleanup.

Is it just a lack of skill on my part, or is there always a ton of
cleanup,
grinding, etc...to get a nice looking fit and finish?

Practice! Try experimenting with your angle of approach, using a
"push" rather than a "drag" approach. Set the heat and wire feed
rate so it "sounds right", then control rate of deposition by
varying rate of progress.

Push or pull. Above centerline, below centerline, forward of center, behind
center. That is mathematically a lot of permutations.

Everything you do to vary the angles, speed, movement, and aim of a welding
torch will give you a different result. The thing you want is repeatability
so that you can make a lot of welds that look the same. You need to weld a
lot to clearly understand how the difference in the position of the torch
head during welding affects the final properties of the weld. And, whether
you aim the wire at the root, or aim it on one side or the other and then
let the molten pool wash onto the other piece has a great deal to do with
the final outcome, too.

Not as simple as some people make it out to be. Every time some small
variables changes infinitessimily (sp?), the whole thing changes.

Steve

SteveB wrote:
6010 ...
The welds are pretty, but not that sound, as the
fusion is interrupted by the heating/cooling cycle.

Gee, they seem sound enough to me. Last time I did a tensile test on 1"
plate welded with 6010 the two specimens failed in the base metal.

"footy" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:
6010 ... The welds are pretty, but not that sound, as the fusion is
interrupted by the heating/cooling cycle.

Gee, they seem sound enough to me. Last time I did a tensile test on 1"
plate welded with 6010 the two specimens failed in the base metal.

Hey, if you're happy with them, isn't that all that matters?

Steve

"footy" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:
6010 ... The welds are pretty, but not that sound, as the fusion is
interrupted by the heating/cooling cycle.

Gee, they seem sound enough to me. Last time I did a tensile test on 1"
plate welded with 6010 the two specimens failed in the base metal.

You did one inch plate with 6010 in a "stack of dimes" manner? How the heck
big was the rod you used? Your porosity and slag inclusion rate must have
been astronomical on such a multipass uneven deposition weld. But, hey, it
passed tensile test. Must have been one ugleeee weld. Or did you cover up
all the slag and porosity with some 7018?

X ray it now and get back to me.

Ever wonder why they give you 6010 for your first six weeks at welding
school?

Steve

SteveB wrote:

Must have been one ugleeee weld. Or did you cover up
all the slag and porosity with some 7018?

I have never had a problem with slag or porosity with 6010. If you do,
you don't know how to weld with 6010.

"footy" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:

Must have been one ugleeee weld. Or did you cover up all the slag and
porosity with some 7018?

I have never had a problem with slag or porosity with 6010. If you do,
you don't know how to weld with 6010.

If you can fill up a 1" vee with 6010 done with "stack of dimes" whipping,
my hat is off to you.

Please let me know how that x ray comes out.

Steve