Hi

One week of work is uploaded!
_BUT_ there still remains the translation to English to be done. So for
now you have to live with "a picture is worth a thousand words".
However, I think you still will enjoy the page + pictures.

Thanks for the help I got here over the last years*).

If anybody of the rare(?) engine-builders here would like to be linked
on my page, drop an eMail**), I'll be glad to add him. And I also would
be happy if you would put a link to me onto your page.


*) I have been off for two years and was formerly "
**) from: is valid

Nick
--
"Wissenschafts"-Sendung auf einem der Privat-Kanäle:
"Der Behälter fasst 200.000 Kubik-Liter."
Wie viele Quadrat-Stunden braucht es dann wohl, um ihn voll zu bekommen?

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...
Hi

One week of work is uploaded!

Gee, yes, we want to see your engines. What's the URL?

--
Ed Huntress

Nick Müller wrote:

[some pointer to a HP without URL]

**ManOMan**! Guess I need some sleep now! 8-/

http://www.motor-manufaktur.de


Sorry for my nearly useless posting, and thanks to Ed for waking me up!

Nick
--
"Wissenschafts"-Sendung auf einem der Privat-Kanäle:
"Der Behälter fasst 200.000 Kubik-Liter."
Wie viele Quadrat-Stunden braucht es dann wohl, um ihn voll zu bekommen?

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...
Nick Müller wrote:

[some pointer to a HP without URL]

**ManOMan**! Guess I need some sleep now! 8-/

http://www.motor-manufaktur.de

Nick, those are magnificent. I hope you get the English translations
completed soon.

--
Ed Huntress

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...
Nick Müller wrote:


http://www.motor-manufaktur.de

OK, I'm jealous.
Outstanding work.

-Carl

Ed Huntress wrote:

Nick, those are magnificent. I hope you get the English translations
completed soon.

Thank you! :-))
Well the translation will take some time, first I have to get the German
version stable (content- and HTML-wise), but I'll take the chance for a
brief description:

ELLWE 2FB:
----------
It's a model of a Swedish 2-stroke 2-zylinder marine Diesel engine,
built around 1920. The model has 64 ccm, and works with (home made)
spark plugs. To disguise the carb, sucction is from the underside of the
cranccase through the base plate. The reversal gear box is working. Also
working is the starting by compressed air. The oiler (brass box with
bulls eye) is also working (but I don't use it). Yes, the copper tubes
are _tubes_.
The engine itself is about 410 * 130 * 245 mm (L * W * H) and weights 15
kg.
Building the engine was about 600..800 hours of work. I bought the
castings and a plan in Italy. But that plan was a mess! It took me weeks
to correct it. :-(

VTM 87:
-------
This is a 1 cylinder 4-stroke in the style of the Amanco. 87ccm. It
wheigts about 27kg. All parts are welded (those that look like
castings). The sound is really great. If you listen to the videos, turn
up the sub woofer!


cubic:
------
1 cylinder 2 stroke 29ccm.
You might ask why it looks so, ummm..., strange. Well, suddenly I had
this design in my head and immedeatly started to sketch the outer form
of it. I wanted that brick-look without curves. Then, I fittet the
necessary things inside. Size is about 250 * 200 mm (base plate). Was
just about 40 hours of work. Doesn't run well (due to the small fly
wheel) in idle (to be onest, it has no idle), but revs up like mad.
Engine looks great if you hang it on the wall like a picture. Yes, it
was intended to be a sculpture.


DLM-S3a:
--------
This is a aero-engine where I found plans in "Model Craftsman" from 1933
(a Lindsay reprint). I took the basic design and optimized it, so you
can spinn the propeller by blowing in the silicon tube. This is really a
cute engine for putting on the desktop.


If you have any further questions, feel free to ask!


Nick
--
"Wissenschafts"-Sendung auf einem der Privat-Kanäle:
"Der Behälter fasst 200.000 Kubik-Liter."
Wie viele Quadrat-Stunden braucht es dann wohl, um ihn voll zu bekommen?

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...

Nick Müller wrote:

[some pointer to a HP without URL]

**ManOMan**! Guess I need some sleep now! 8-/

http://www.motor-manufaktur.de


Nick, those are magnificent. I hope you get the English translations
completed soon.

I couldn't wait, so I just copied the URL Nick gave us, went to:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

and pasted the URL in the "Translate a Web Page" slot, set the
translation for German to English, and.....Bob's your uncle."*

You can then navigate through the site and with minor mental
manipulation you get a very good idea of what he says about each of the
pictures.

Jeff


* (Bob's your uncle)
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bob1.htm
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:11:53 +0200, (Nick Müller)
wrote:

Nick Müller wrote:

[some pointer to a HP without URL]

**ManOMan**! Guess I need some sleep now! 8-/

http://www.motor-manufaktur.de


Sorry for my nearly useless posting, and thanks to Ed for waking me up!

Nick

That's really good. Even exploded CAD pictures for the 3 cylinder
rotary engine, did you do the propeller also? Are the cylinders off
set? Any pictures of the shop, or did I miss that part without
translating it?

Sunworshipper wrote:

Even exploded CAD pictures for the 3 cylinder rotary engine, did you do
the propeller also?

No, didn't do the propeller in CAD. This remains a training task to be
done later. 'Am not familiar with nurbs yet.
The non-virtual propeller I made myself. I was looking for one quite a
long time until I was fed up of what I found. Cut some plywood, sand to
shape (beld sander), oil, done. 10 minutes if you made your third.
Oh, it's not a rotary engine. I made a rotary version of it, but no pics
(looks quite the same, only 2 or 3 parts changed), not worth showing.


Are the cylinders off set?

Not pointing to the CL of crank shaft? No, they are.


Any pictures of the shop, or did I miss that part without
translating it?

No pictures (except of the Deckel FP1 in action and my press)
FP1/press (but FP1 only very partial):
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de/vtm87/baubilder.html
OK, I do have pictures of my shop, but they also shoow drunken people,
Schnapps-bottles and beer. ;-)) Not for public use!


Hey folks, makes me happy if you like them. Continue asking!

Nick
--
"Wissenschafts"-Sendung auf einem der Privat-Kanäle:
"Der Behälter fasst 200.000 Kubik-Liter."
Wie viele Quadrat-Stunden braucht es dann wohl, um ihn voll zu bekommen?

Nick Müller wrote:
Sunworshipper wrote:


Even exploded CAD pictures for the 3 cylinder rotary engine, did you do
the propeller also?


No, didn't do the propeller in CAD. This remains a training task to be
done later. 'Am not familiar with nurbs yet.
The non-virtual propeller I made myself. I was looking for one quite a
long time until I was fed up of what I found. Cut some plywood, sand to
shape (beld sander), oil, done. 10 minutes if you made your third.
Oh, it's not a rotary engine. I made a rotary version of it, but no pics
(looks quite the same, only 2 or 3 parts changed), not worth showing.



Are the cylinders off set?


Not pointing to the CL of crank shaft? No, they are.



Any pictures of the shop, or did I miss that part without
translating it?


No pictures (except of the Deckel FP1 in action and my press)
FP1/press (but FP1 only very partial):
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de/vtm87/baubilder.html
OK, I do have pictures of my shop, but they also shoow drunken people,
Schnapps-bottles and beer. ;-)) Not for public use!


Hey folks, makes me happy if you like them. Continue asking!

Nick

Re; the offset cylinders- you have a master connecting rod or three rods
side by side on the journal?

These are beautious little engines, far beyond my attention span and
abilities. Many thanks for displaying them.

John

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...
Nick Müller wrote:

[some pointer to a HP without URL]

**ManOMan**! Guess I need some sleep now! 8-/

http://www.motor-manufaktur.de


Sorry for my nearly useless posting, and thanks to Ed for waking me up!

Nick
--


Cool pix -- I suppose the real story behind the picture at
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de/dlms3a/index.html
is you are holding the model while the plastic tube goes
down to the beer ???

mikey (who someday will get a chance to build an engine)

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

Nick, those are magnificent. I hope you get the English translations
completed soon.

Thank you! :-))
Well the translation will take some time, first I have to get the German
version stable (content- and HTML-wise), but I'll take the chance for a
brief description:

ELLWE 2FB:
----------
It's a model of a Swedish 2-stroke 2-zylinder marine Diesel engine,
built around 1920. The model has 64 ccm, and works with (home made)
spark plugs. To disguise the carb, sucction is from the underside of the
cranccase through the base plate.

That one really knocks me out. So, it's a spark-ignition replica of a
diesel? Do you have any experience building diesels?

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

That one really knocks me out. So, it's a spark-ignition replica of a
diesel?

Yes. I did the most to hide everything that shows that there is a spark
plug and a carb. The spark plug was crammed into the diesel injection.
The black wire you see on the photos going to the jet is in fact a HV
cable (withstanding 20kV), the thinnest I could find. It took me just a
week to make the ignition working (with some rocket science plastics
that cost literaly more than gold (18 EUR / gramm).
The breaker points and the distributor are in the cylindrical part
between engine and gear box. It drove me nuts to make it HV-proof! I
would make it simpler the next time (2 ignition coils, 2 breakers, no
distributer).
As I said, the carb is not directly at the engine, but at the front side
of the base plate. Tubes going from the carb to the crank case, every
crank case having a reed valve. The original sucked the fresh air from
reed valves behind the "ELLWE" plates (oval shaped, two on each side).
There is a sectional drawing in Lyle Cunnings book (that book is so
great if you like diesels!. Lyle writes great books, but this one is
tremendous)


Do you have any experience building diesels?

No. But this is another story: My next project is a big stationary
Diesel engine that is located in Passau (somewhere between Munich and
Salzburg; to give you some reference). It was built 1906. Rudolf Diesel
personaly adjusted it. When I was there to have a first look at, I also
took the chance to visit the local second hand book seller*). And there
I found a book (1936 IIRC) about diesel engines that convinced me, that
it could be possible to build ones with say about 100 ccm. I didn't try
it yet, but sure sometime. Not with my current project.
I didn't decide on the scale yet, so don't know about the ccm's I will
have.
The problem is the injection pump (you guessed it), not the jet. To make
the engine running in idle you have to inject 0,5mm^3 for every 100ccm.
Well, that ain't really much.
I have seen someone who has built a real diesel with just a few ccm (I
guess less than 10) who claims to have an injection pressure of 80 atm.
Unfortunately I'm unable to contact him anymore and to squeeze him out.


*) well, "second hand books" sounds like pulp fiction, but those dealers
(we call them Antiquariat) do have good and old books. I could waste all
my money at them, if there is left something after visiting my tool
dealer. :-)


Nick

--
Motormodelle / Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de

JohnM wrote:

Re; the offset cylinders- you have a master connecting rod or three rods
side by side on the journal?

No master rod. "KISS" design. :-)


These are beautious little engines, far beyond my attention span and
abilities.

The air operated engine (DLM-S3a) is really simple. If you do have a
lathe, some files & drills, a jig saw and a soldering iron you're on the
track. The book I adopted the design from is: "Unusual Projects from the
first Year of Model Craftsman Magazine". Lindsay Publications; ISBN
1-55918-237-7. Nice reprint, fun reading it! Camden books has it, but
there should be a better source in the USA.


Many thanks for displaying them.

You and all the others who like them are welcome!
Feel free to ask me another hole into my belly (as we say in German).

Nick
--
Motormodelle / Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de

Mike Fields wrote:

I suppose the real story behind the picture at
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de/dlms3a/index.html is you are holding the
model while the plastic tube goes down to the beer ???

No, that's not mee. A friend of mine. I'm about the same age, but not
looking that old. :-))
And no, no beer at that time, it was about 11 am.
Sorry. :-))

Nick

--
Motormodelle / Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:51:07 +0200, (Nick Müller)
wrote:

Hi

One week of work is uploaded!
_BUT_ there still remains the translation to English to be done. So for
now you have to live with "a picture is worth a thousand words".
However, I think you still will enjoy the page + pictures.

Thanks for the help I got here over the last years*).

If anybody of the rare(?) engine-builders here would like to be linked
on my page, drop an eMail**), I'll be glad to add him. And I also would
be happy if you would put a link to me onto your page.


*) I have been off for two years and was formerly "
**) from: is valid

Nick

Nick, those are some beautiful creations. Good for you!

Orrin

Nick Müller wrote:
No. But this is another story: My next project is a big stationary
Diesel engine that is located in Passau (somewhere between Munich and
Salzburg; to give you some reference). It was built 1906. Rudolf Diesel
personaly adjusted it. When I was there to have a first look at, I also
took the chance to visit the local second hand book seller*). And there
I found a book (1936 IIRC) about diesel engines that convinced me, that
it could be possible to build ones with say about 100 ccm. I didn't try
it yet, but sure sometime. Not with my current project.
I didn't decide on the scale yet, so don't know about the ccm's I will
have.
The problem is the injection pump (you guessed it), not the jet. To make
the engine running in idle you have to inject 0,5mm^3 for every 100ccm.
Well, that ain't really much.
I have seen someone who has built a real diesel with just a few ccm (I
guess less than 10) who claims to have an injection pressure of 80 atm.
Unfortunately I'm unable to contact him anymore and to squeeze him out.

This is really nice work!

There have been carb'd diesels built. Model aircraft diesels burn diesel
fuel mixed with ether I think. If the injection pump is too much of an
obstacle, this might be an acceptable way around it.

Bob

Nick,

Very neat! Would be great to see videos of your other
engines running.

Rich

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

Do you have any experience building diesels?

No. But this is another story: My next project is a big stationary
Diesel engine that is located in Passau (somewhere between Munich and
Salzburg; to give you some reference). It was built 1906. Rudolf Diesel
personaly adjusted it. When I was there to have a first look at, I also
took the chance to visit the local second hand book seller*). And there
I found a book (1936 IIRC) about diesel engines that convinced me, that
it could be possible to build ones with say about 100 ccm. I didn't try
it yet, but sure sometime. Not with my current project.
I didn't decide on the scale yet, so don't know about the ccm's I will
have.
The problem is the injection pump (you guessed it), not the jet. To make
the engine running in idle you have to inject 0,5mm^3 for every 100ccm.
Well, that ain't really much.
I have seen someone who has built a real diesel with just a few ccm (I
guess less than 10) who claims to have an injection pressure of 80 atm.
Unfortunately I'm unable to contact him anymore and to squeeze him out.

This is a question that's interested me for some time: how small can you
make a diesel, one that runs on real diesel fuel (cetane +/- 45)?

I asked the question here before, and the consensus was that the smallest
*commercial* diesels were around 300 - 400 cc per cylinder. I didn't check
that out because it was far larger than I was interested in, so I suppose
the model making community is the place to ask.

There are, as I'm sure you know, some very small model diesels that run on
ether (ether/castor oil mixes for the 2-strokes). Someone in Pennsylvania
makes such a kit for home machinists.

But the cetane rating of ether is around 85 - 90, so it's not a good basis
on which to judge how one would run on conventional diesel fuel. Biodiesel
has trouble reaching a cetane rating of 40, so that's probably out.

Do you have any other ideas? I'm thinking of something around 100 cc.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

This is a question that's interested me for some time: how small can you
make a diesel, one that runs on real diesel fuel (cetane +/- 45)?

Well, it seems the answer of 300..400cc is about right for a good
running Diesel.


There are, as I'm sure you know, some very small model diesels that run on
ether (ether/castor oil mixes for the 2-strokes). Someone in Pennsylvania
makes such a kit for home machinists.

Yes, but they do not use injection pumps, so they are not real Diesels.
Real Diesels do:
- not use a spark plug or any timed device to start ignition
- start burning the fuel by compression heat
- do the timing of the thermal process by the timing of the injected
fuel.

Those model diesels do compress the fuel-air mixture and their only way
to controll the timing is by changing compression. Also, the fuel
explodes all at a time. Not what a Diesel does.


Do you have any other ideas? I'm thinking of something around 100 cc.

It must be doable, not very good running, smoking and nailing. But that
would improve a model of an early Diesel. :-)
If I only could find that guy with his mini Diesel ...


Nick
--
Motormodelle / Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de

MetalHead wrote:

There have been carb'd diesels built. Model aircraft diesels burn diesel
fuel mixed with ether I think.

That's why they are called Semi Diesels. This isn't the real Diesel
process. They are very bad at low revs, so this isn't an option for my
models.


Nick
--
Motormodelle / Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:


Do you have any experience building diesels?

No. But this is another story: My next project is a big stationary
Diesel engine that is located in Passau (somewhere between Munich and
Salzburg; to give you some reference). It was built 1906. Rudolf Diesel
personaly adjusted it. When I was there to have a first look at, I also
took the chance to visit the local second hand book seller*). And there
I found a book (1936 IIRC) about diesel engines that convinced me, that
it could be possible to build ones with say about 100 ccm. I didn't try
it yet, but sure sometime. Not with my current project.
I didn't decide on the scale yet, so don't know about the ccm's I will
have.
The problem is the injection pump (you guessed it), not the jet. To make
the engine running in idle you have to inject 0,5mm^3 for every 100ccm.
Well, that ain't really much.
I have seen someone who has built a real diesel with just a few ccm (I
guess less than 10) who claims to have an injection pressure of 80 atm.
Unfortunately I'm unable to contact him anymore and to squeeze him out.


This is a question that's interested me for some time: how small can you
make a diesel, one that runs on real diesel fuel (cetane +/- 45)?

I asked the question here before, and the consensus was that the smallest
*commercial* diesels were around 300 - 400 cc per cylinder. I didn't check
that out because it was far larger than I was interested in, so I suppose
the model making community is the place to ask.

There are, as I'm sure you know, some very small model diesels that run on
ether (ether/castor oil mixes for the 2-strokes). Someone in Pennsylvania
makes such a kit for home machinists.

But the cetane rating of ether is around 85 - 90, so it's not a good basis
on which to judge how one would run on conventional diesel fuel. Biodiesel
has trouble reaching a cetane rating of 40, so that's probably out.

Do you have any other ideas? I'm thinking of something around 100 cc.

--
Ed Huntress


I've made and burned a bit of biodiesel, Ed, and its cetane runs quite a
bit higher than 40. Here's a quote from one of the abstracts on the
biodiesel.org's site:

"A typical cetane number range for #2 diesel fuel is 40-45 while #1
diesel is 48-52.
Biodiesel from vegetable oils have been recorded as having a cetane
number range of 46
to 52, and animal fat based biodiesels cetane numbers range from 56 to 60."

Run your model diesel on processed bacon grease.

Dale Scroggins

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

This is a question that's interested me for some time: how small can you
make a diesel, one that runs on real diesel fuel (cetane +/- 45)?

Well, it seems the answer of 300..400cc is about right for a good
running Diesel.


There are, as I'm sure you know, some very small model diesels that run
on
ether (ether/castor oil mixes for the 2-strokes). Someone in
Pennsylvania
makes such a kit for home machinists.

Yes, but they do not use injection pumps, so they are not real Diesels.
Real Diesels do:
- not use a spark plug or any timed device to start ignition
- start burning the fuel by compression heat
- do the timing of the thermal process by the timing of the injected
fuel.

Those model diesels do compress the fuel-air mixture and their only way
to controll the timing is by changing compression. Also, the fuel
explodes all at a time. Not what a Diesel does.

Aha. I hadn't thought about the difference in the way the fuel burns in a
carburetted versus an injected compression engine.

Have you considered a solenoid pump for your model? I don't have any reason
to believe it would be the answer, but I'm curious.



Do you have any other ideas? I'm thinking of something around 100 cc.

It must be doable, not very good running, smoking and nailing. But that
would improve a model of an early Diesel. :-)
If I only could find that guy with his mini Diesel ...

If you do, please let us know. There probably are some papers on it, buried
deep in the archives at MIT's Sloan Automotive Lab, or in Germany, in
Rudolph's papers. I've never tried that route because it's just a hobby
question. Maybe when I'm retired. g

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)

"Dale Scroggins" wrote in message
. ..
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:


Do you have any experience building diesels?

No. But this is another story: My next project is a big stationary
Diesel engine that is located in Passau (somewhere between Munich and
Salzburg; to give you some reference). It was built 1906. Rudolf Diesel
personaly adjusted it. When I was there to have a first look at, I also
took the chance to visit the local second hand book seller*). And there
I found a book (1936 IIRC) about diesel engines that convinced me, that
it could be possible to build ones with say about 100 ccm. I didn't try
it yet, but sure sometime. Not with my current project.
I didn't decide on the scale yet, so don't know about the ccm's I will
have.
The problem is the injection pump (you guessed it), not the jet. To make
the engine running in idle you have to inject 0,5mm^3 for every 100ccm.
Well, that ain't really much.
I have seen someone who has built a real diesel with just a few ccm (I
guess less than 10) who claims to have an injection pressure of 80 atm.
Unfortunately I'm unable to contact him anymore and to squeeze him out.


This is a question that's interested me for some time: how small can you
make a diesel, one that runs on real diesel fuel (cetane +/- 45)?

I asked the question here before, and the consensus was that the
smallest
*commercial* diesels were around 300 - 400 cc per cylinder. I didn't
check
that out because it was far larger than I was interested in, so I
suppose
the model making community is the place to ask.

There are, as I'm sure you know, some very small model diesels that run
on
ether (ether/castor oil mixes for the 2-strokes). Someone in
Pennsylvania
makes such a kit for home machinists.

But the cetane rating of ether is around 85 - 90, so it's not a good
basis
on which to judge how one would run on conventional diesel fuel.
Biodiesel
has trouble reaching a cetane rating of 40, so that's probably out.

Do you have any other ideas? I'm thinking of something around 100 cc.

--
Ed Huntress


I've made and burned a bit of biodiesel, Ed, and its cetane runs quite a
bit higher than 40. Here's a quote from one of the abstracts on the
biodiesel.org's site:

"A typical cetane number range for #2 diesel fuel is 40-45 while #1
diesel is 48-52.
Biodiesel from vegetable oils have been recorded as having a cetane
number range of 46
to 52, and animal fat based biodiesels cetane numbers range from 56 to
60."

Run your model diesel on processed bacon grease.

Dale Scroggins

OK, but I got those numbers a few months ago from international engineering
societies, and I didn't see a single one that said biodiesel meets the
45-cetane standard. In Europe, they've been experimenting with blends to see
how much biodiesel you can mix in and still keep a cetane rating of 40.

It's over my head because there's a lot of chemistry involved in the
reports, and I'm just going from reports. But be wary of the incentives and
enthusiasms behind the sources you read: biodiesel.org wouldn't be my first
choice for objective info. It's not a matter of individual facts so much as
perspective.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

Aha. I hadn't thought about the difference in the way the fuel burns in a
carburetted versus an injected compression engine.

Well, that's the way it was defined in the patent (which, beside, didn't
work and Diesel had to change it. - Cunning's book!)

Have you considered a solenoid pump for your model? I don't have any reason
to believe it would be the answer, but I'm curious.

Solenoid not, but something like a piezo might be an option.
But as soon as you have a plunger, you have trouble. The necessary
tolerances are in the 1/1000mm range. I made some tests that looked
quite encouraging. The plunger has to have a diameter of about 0,7mm and
be in the 5mm lenght range, minimum stroke is about 1mm (all for
100ccm). Fun lapping it.


If you do, please let us know.

The person I'm talking about is still alive, and I have seen his cute
Diesel model.


There probably are some papers on it, buried deep in the archives at MIT's
Sloan Automotive Lab, or in Germany, in Rudolph's papers. I've never tried
that route because it's just a hobby question. Maybe when I'm retired. g

The whole thing is more a mechanical problem than a theoretical. You
need valves that are tight at 40..80 bar, open/close with only a slight
lift, need plungers and cylinders that fit 1/1000mm, ...
And even if I get it working, the model I'm planing to build doesn't
inject fuel directly, but uses compressed air to blast the fuel in. Now
making a compressor (two stage, 1:40) in the size of your thump is yet
another challenge ...

I'm not decided how the next engine will be fired.

Nick
--
Motormodelle / Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de

"Dale Scroggins" wrote in message
. ..

"A typical cetane number range for #2 diesel fuel is 40-45 while #1
diesel is 48-52.
Biodiesel from vegetable oils have been recorded as having a cetane
number range of 46
to 52, and animal fat based biodiesels cetane numbers range from 56 to
60."

Eh, you got my journalist juices going. I sent email about it to MIT's top
engine-fuels expert. If he gets back to me I'll let you know.

--
Ed Huntress

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...

Have you considered a solenoid pump for your model? I don't have any
reason
to believe it would be the answer, but I'm curious.

Solenoid not, but something like a piezo might be an option.
But as soon as you have a plunger, you have trouble.

Since you're into it this deep, I'd like to suggest something you may want
to consider: magnetostrictive metals. I have some (indirect) experience with
them. They produce much more force than piezo, and they're good for (IIRC)
20 kHz. They activate very simply, with a solenoid-type coil, but they do
have some mechanical hysteresis.

They're used in some mechanical applications now. The technology was
developed for sonar transducers. Small bars of the material are reasonably
priced.

Have fun. It sounds like you've developed your work into something close to
laboratory research.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

ince you're into it this deep, I'd like to suggest something you may want
to consider: magnetostrictive metals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The name says it all!

I have some (indirect) experience with them. They produce much more force
than piezo, and they're good for (IIRC) 20 kHz. They activate very simply,
with a solenoid-type coil, but they do have some mechanical hysteresis.

Now this sounds (pun intended) _very_ good! Thanks a lot for that hint!

Small bars of the material are reasonably priced.

Say, do you know how much they contract at about (%-wise)? Going to have
to google for a source (no success until now).


Have fun. It sounds like you've developed your work into something close to
laboratory research.

Sometimes I do have the same impression. ;-)
Next, I will publish my tube-bender (it took me 50 hours of development
and two prototypes to be thrown away). Look at the tubes of the Ellwe to
see how good they are.


Thanks again for the magnetostrictive metal
Nick
--
Motormodelle / Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

ince you're into it this deep, I'd like to suggest something you may
want
to consider: magnetostrictive metals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The name says it all!

I have some (indirect) experience with them. They produce much more
force
than piezo, and they're good for (IIRC) 20 kHz. They activate very
simply,
with a solenoid-type coil, but they do have some mechanical hysteresis.

Now this sounds (pun intended) _very_ good! Thanks a lot for that hint!

Small bars of the material are reasonably priced.

Say, do you know how much they contract at about (%-wise)? Going to have
to google for a source (no success until now).


Have fun. It sounds like you've developed your work into something close
to
laboratory research.

Sometimes I do have the same impression. ;-)
Next, I will publish my tube-bender (it took me 50 hours of development
and two prototypes to be thrown away). Look at the tubes of the Ellwe to
see how good they are.


Thanks again for the magnetostrictive metal
Nick

Go to Google and look up Terfenol-D. Also, look up "magnetostrictive
transducer." Without the quotes, I got 20,000 hits.

You may run into one of my old articles about it. When I was at Wasino, we,
in cooperation with Etrema, who were the material experts, were developing
it for elliptical piston-turning.

The properties are well-known. The force is very high compared to any
comparable technology. When I Googled, I saw a technical paper about
modeling the hysteresis, but I didn't read it.

IIRC, some engine company was considering using it for fuel injection, but I
don't trust my memory that far.

Anyway, it's a great project for an experimenter. As for prices, go to:

http://www.etrema-usa.com/products/terfenol/

They'll give you a quote. You may find a similar material cheaper somewhere.
The US Navy uses it in sonar, so there must be other sources.

--
Ed Huntress

Well, it seems the answer of 300..400cc is about right for a good
running Diesel.

http://www.hatz.com/
lists a 232cc diesel engine, 71lbs and rated at 1.8hp,
here's the specs
http://www.hatz.com/type/1be.pdf
and its also available in vertical shaft. Runs up to
3600rpm. Makes me wonder if their injector system
would be usable in a scale engine...

Would you have access to a used one of those motors to
play around with?
--Glenn Lyford

wrote:

lists a 232cc diesel engine, 71lbs and rated at 1.8hp,
here's the specs

Nice. But still about factor 4 too big.

http://www.hatz.com/type/1be.pdf

Downloaded. Thanks for the hint.


Would you have access to a used one of those motors to
play around with?

Umm, I think not.


Thanks,
Nick
--
Motormodelle / Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de

Ed Huntress wrote:

Go to Google and look up Terfenol-D.

That was it. Got enough stuff to read now.
And found 2 or 3 articles about EFI with Terfenol.


When I was at Wasino, we, in cooperation with Etrema, who were the
material experts, were developing it for elliptical piston-turning.

Is Terfenol machineable (without having an EDM), and how? Couldn't find
anything.

Very interesting that material, thanks again!

Nick

--
Motormodelle / Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
todays SPAMfeed:

Nick Müller wrote:

[I got quite some stuff to read, so the answer is a little late]
lists a 232cc diesel engine, 71lbs and rated at 1.8hp,
here's the specs

Nice. But still about factor 4 too big.

That engine has a CR of 1:22. Interpolating with the bigger Hatz of the
same family, a 100cc diesel would need 1:23 or 1:24, a 50cc 1:24 or
1:25. About what I guessed.


Nick
--
Motormodelle / Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
todays SPAMfeed:

"Nick Müller" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

Go to Google and look up Terfenol-D.

That was it. Got enough stuff to read now.
And found 2 or 3 articles about EFI with Terfenol.

Aha! Well, it's a very logical application. I'm not surprised that someone
has been working on it.


When I was at Wasino, we, in cooperation with Etrema, who were the
material experts, were developing it for elliptical piston-turning.

Is Terfenol machineable (without having an EDM), and how? Couldn't find
anything.

I forget. I think I used to know, but I forget that, too. g It's been a
few years.

Now that you're on the trail, I'm sure you'll be able to get answers. The
Etrema people are very knowledgeable and I always found them forthcoming
when I talked with them.


Very interesting that material, thanks again!

You're welcome. It will be fun to experiment with it if you get your hands
on some. Making it work is very easy. Making it position a tool to +/- 1
micrometer through its full stroke, on a lathe turning at 4,000 rpm, is not
so easy. That's where the hysteresis becomes challenging.

However, I'm guessing that, for injection, all you'll have to do is add a
compensating factor to the solenoid current as the rpm increases. That could
be a simple circuit.

Maybe. I hope. g In its favor, it's much more durable than a stacked piezo
array, in addition to producing more force, and it apparently doesn't
fatigue in service.

--
Ed Huntress