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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
Robert Jordan wrote:
Sorry my mistake... I was reminded it was R12.. Been awhile since i used that Number... So im looking for R12 not R15 Robert in Mesquite Followup-To: dfw.forsale of course you have a license, right? i was in your shoes just last week, needing just a single can to top off my 89 Escort and thinking about using propane (do _NOT_ do this at home) when i found two more cans in a cabinet, separated from the R22 and other volitiles. must have have bot these just before the new law. of course i ran right down to the ac tech and had one installed. my point? look around, you may have some, maybe ask a neighbor who owes you a favor. you can have my last can for the right price. grin good luck, --Loren "Mac McKinzie" wrote in message om... is R15 cheaper than R12? "Robert Jordan" wrote in message news I need to buy 1-2 cans of the old R15 freon can to put in my Car AC. If you have an old can or two laying around and dont need them, Let me know the price and location and I might pick them up from you. Robert in Mesquite |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
"lcoe" wrote in message news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54... Robert Jordan wrote: Sorry my mistake... I was reminded it was R12.. Been awhile since i used that Number... So im looking for R12 not R15 Robert in Mesquite Followup-To: dfw.forsale of course you have a license, right? i was in your shoes just last week, needing just a single can to top off my 89 Escort and thinking about using propane (do _NOT_ do this at home) when i found two more cans in a cabinet, separated from the R22 and other volitiles. must have have bot these just before the new law. of course i ran right down to the ac tech and had one installed. my point? look around, you may have some, maybe ask a neighbor who owes you a favor. you can have my last can for the right price. grin good luck, --Loren "Mac McKinzie" wrote in message om... is R15 cheaper than R12? "Robert Jordan" wrote in message news I need to buy 1-2 cans of the old R15 freon can to put in my Car AC. If you have an old can or two laying around and dont need them, Let me know the price and location and I might pick them up from you. Robert in Mesquite |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
"lcoe" wrote in message news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54... of course you have a license, right? There is a bunch of misinformation out there about this (and this could be some of it). As I recall, you do not need a license to do your own personal AC work and it is legal to possess, buy and sell NOS (new-old stock) F12. That said, it is likely that no commercial establishment will sell you AC materials without at least an EPA license, (which is not difficult to get via the Internet http://www.epatest.com/e_609cert.html ). You can easily hurt yourself working with refrigerants if you do not have the proper equipment and/or know what you are doing. There may be some more-stringent state and local regulation around, I am only talking about federal regulation. Sorry for the double post. Vaughn |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:23:29 GMT, "Vaughn"
wrote: "lcoe" wrote in message news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54... Robert Jordan wrote: Sorry my mistake... I was reminded it was R12.. Been awhile since i used that Number... So im looking for R12 not R15 Robert in Mesquite Followup-To: dfw.forsale of course you have a license, right? i was in your shoes just last week, needing just a single can to top off my 89 Escort and thinking about using propane (do _NOT_ do this at home) when i found two more cans in a cabinet, separated from the R22 and other volitiles. must have have bot these just before the new law. of course i ran right down to the ac tech and had one installed. my point? look around, you may have some, maybe ask a neighbor who owes you a favor. you can have my last can for the right price. grin good luck, --Loren "Mac McKinzie" wrote in message om... Had the R12 drawn out of my '88 Chrysler 2 years ago and traded what was left for a full load of 134A and a set of conversion fittings. Put in an ounce of the new compatible oil, and some dye in case any leaks develop, and back in business. Cools almost as well as the R12 did at its best, and a whole lot better than it did with low freon. No changes to gaskets or "O"rings, - Nothing. Still working just fine.. is R15 cheaper than R12? "Robert Jordan" wrote in message news I need to buy 1-2 cans of the old R15 freon can to put in my Car AC. If you have an old can or two laying around and dont need them, Let me know the price and location and I might pick them up from you. Robert in Mesquite |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:27:59 GMT, "Vaughn"
wrote: "lcoe" wrote in message news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54... of course you have a license, right? There is a bunch of misinformation out there about this (and this could be some of it). As I recall, you do not need a license to do your own personal AC work and it is legal to possess, buy and sell NOS (new-old stock) F12. That said, it is likely that no commercial establishment will sell you AC materials without at least an EPA license, (which is not difficult to get via the Internet http://www.epatest.com/e_609cert.html ). You can easily hurt yourself working with refrigerants if you do not have the proper equipment and/or know what you are doing. There may be some more-stringent state and local regulation around, I am only talking about federal regulation. Sorry for the double post. Vaughn Depends where you are. Here in Ontario it is illegal to work on AC (pressurized components) without a licence, period. Cannot import or produce R12. The only reasonable source of R12 is systems being scrapped, as ALL refrigeration systems must, by law, be evacuated (reclaimed) before disposal. Now, we ALL know laws were made to be broken - - - but don't get caught. |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
"Vaughn" wrote in message ... "lcoe" wrote in message news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54... of course you have a license, right? There is a bunch of misinformation out there about this (and this could be some of it). As I recall, you do not need a license to do your own personal AC work and it is legal to possess, buy and sell NOS (new-old stock) F12. Not true. You can not do your own AC service without EPA certification. R-134 perhaps, but not R-12. Study for the test, it is all in there! Greg |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
Greg O wrote:
"Vaughn" wrote in message ... "lcoe" wrote in message news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54... of course you have a license, right? There is a bunch of misinformation out there about this (and this could be some of it). As I recall, you do not need a license to do your own personal AC work and it is legal to possess, buy and sell NOS (new-old stock) F12. Not true. You can not do your own AC service without EPA certification. R-134 perhaps, but not R-12. Study for the test, it is all in there! Greg this sounds like the truth, what i have heard/read, but i am not offering a opinion. Regards, --Loren |
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R12 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
Fred McClellan wrote:
On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 03:26:12 GMT, k7kkg wrote: There's a legal replacement for R 12 other thna 134a, it doesn't require any sort of conversion. Info: http://www.freeze12.com/ Do yourself a favor and read the MSDS for that stuff first. We looked at Freeze12 and several other 'drop-in replacements' for R-12. None were acceptable to us because of notably increased health hazards and/or flammability. Cheers, Fred McClellan the dash plumber at mindspring dot com i looked at it also and figured that it was not a replacement for R-12, but was filling in the space that the R-12 should have been in... it seems to me to be propane or something... i remember an old guy who knew just about everything at work(if you had a question, someone would always say just ask Ralph).. he told me that he was short on some R-12 and had some propane and replaced it in the car and the a/c worked fine... also in my state(motor vehicle section) there is a law about having flamables in the a/c system... most states if not all probably have the same thing....not many people would know about it, but a lawyer with a complete listing of all motor vehicle laws would have it...... most people would only be concerned with red lights, stop signs, who has the right of way at a four way stop, etc.. but they also list the equipment regulations... |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:59:02 -0500, "Greg O"
wrote: "Vaughn" wrote in message ... "lcoe" wrote in message news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54... of course you have a license, right? There is a bunch of misinformation out there about this (and this could be some of it). As I recall, you do not need a license to do your own personal AC work and it is legal to possess, buy and sell NOS (new-old stock) F12. Not true. You can not do your own AC service without EPA certification. R-134 perhaps, but not R-12. Study for the test, it is all in there! Greg R134 too - and 134 is more dangerous than R12 - it is a known carcinogen, even in low concentrations. |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:24:15 -0500, David A. Webb
wrote: You need the license to purchase R12, and to service any R12 system. There are pretty strict guidelines. You do not need a license to sell it. But the seller must obtain the license number from the buyer. You do not need a license to buy, sell, or service R134a. Dave Except in Canada - where you DO need a licence to handle 134. |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
"David A. Webb" wrote in message ... You need the license to purchase R12, and to service any R12 system. ...For Consideration. I see no prohibition if you are working on your own vehicles. OK, you made me go back to the book. Please note the below excerpt from EPA regulations: http://www.epa.gov/oar/caa/caa609.txt and please feel free to correct me (with verified facts and links please) if I am wrong. We are only talking about US government regulation, state and local regulations may be more stringent, the regulations of other countries such as Canada WILL be different. Be sure to note the words "For Consideration" (that means that someone is paying you). (c) Servicing Motor Vehicle Air Conditioners.- Effective January 1, 1992, no person repairing or servicing motor vehicles for consideration may perform any service on a motor vehicle air conditioner involving the refrigerant for such air conditioner without properly using approved refrigerant recycling equipment and no such person may perform such service unless such person has been properly trained and certified. The requirements of the previous sentence shall not apply until January 1, 1993 in the case of a person repairing or servicing motor vehicles for consideration at an entity which performed service on fewer than 100 motor vehicle air conditioners during calendar year 1990 and if such person so certifies, pursuant to subsection (d)(2), to the Administrator by Janu- ary 1, 1992. (d) Certification.- (1) Effective 2 years after the enactment of the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990, each person performing service on motor vehicle air conditioners for consideration shall certify to the Administrator either- (A) that such person has acquired, and is properly using, approved refrigerant recycling equipment in service on motor vehicle air conditioners involving refrigerant and that each individual authorized by such person to perform such service is properly trained and certified; Regards; Vaughn There are pretty strict guidelines. Not so strict actually, unless you are in the business. You do not need a license to sell it. But the seller must obtain the license number from the buyer. You do not need a license to buy, sell, or service R134a. Dave |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
I wonder how many of those eBayer's selling R12 by the can require a license
number to complete the sale. Randy "David A. Webb" wrote in message ... You need the license to purchase R12, and to service any R12 system. There are pretty strict guidelines. You do not need a license to sell it. But the seller must obtain the license number from the buyer. You do not need a license to buy, sell, or service R134a. Dave |
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R12 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:16:01 GMT, "Carl Ijames"
wrote: We looked at Freeze12 and several other 'drop-in replacements' for R-12. None were acceptable to us because of notably increased health hazards and/or flammability. Did you look at R414B? Similar to R406A but that is hard to get locally. A friend has used a lot of both in R12 auto systems and is really satisfied. A little pricey, about $275 for 25 lbs, but cools better than R12, works fine with mineral oil (that's my biggest concern with Freeze-12, from the composition I'm skeptical about oil solubility and another friend at a parts store told me that FourSeasons and the other compressor manufacturers that they carry won't warranty their stuff with Freeze-12 but he didn't know why). Also, propane is a close match for R22, not R12; a mix of propane and isobutane is a good match for R12 but it's flammable and not approved by the EPA; it used to be sold as OZ-12 and something else that you may be confusing with Freeze-12 which is a mix of R134A and R14something :-). Yes, we've looked at all the known 'drop-in' R-12 replacements, and found them wanting in one or more ways. They either had propane as a component or had a really ugly glide. R-134a is bad enough in the glide department, don't see the sense in adding propane to the equation. The key, as you noted, is what the compressor manufacturers will accept as warrantable refrigerant. Cheers, Fred McClellan the dash plumber at mindspring dot com |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
"Vaughn" wrote in message ... "David A. Webb" wrote in message ... You need the license to purchase R12, and to service any R12 system. ...For Consideration. I see no prohibition if you are working on your own vehicles. So far I would have to agree with you, but I am still digging! At this point I will agree that it perhaps is ok for a person to work on his own automobile AC system, BUT several places I have found requirements that ALL refrigerants be recovered, period. This pretty much puts it out of the scope of your typical DIY. What is the pint of doing it yourself if you need to buy several hundred $$ of equipment to do it!! Also be aware of the date of the articles you are referencing. The original laws regarding AC service are still active, but there has been revisions to the early laws. I believe it is illegal for anyone to work on air conditioning, I just can find it in the mountains of information available from the EPA! Greg |
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R12 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
http://www.autofrost.com/monroe/safety/safety.html
Looking at those pictures, I wouldn't recommend using propane as a substitute. IMHO the gentlemen operating the propane tank valve is a prime candidate for a Darwin Award. snippage But, of course, ALL refrigeration systems have flammables in them -- the OIL! Check at George Goble's site http://www.autofrost.com/ for some info and a picture showing him demonstrating the flammability of standard R-12 as vented from a running auto air conditioner, and ignited with a match. (I couldn't find the picture on his page just now, but it was there some time ago.) You might have to email him for it. Jon |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
I have sold R12 on eBay, and it is legal.
You must state in the add that you require the buyer be licensed, AND you must state you require the license number before the transaction is complete. After that, eBay can consider themselves free of liability, and everything is okay. Dave |
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R12 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
Wonder if anyone considered the fact that the ethylene glycol you use
in your radiator is flammable. Dave |
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R12 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
In article , David says...
Wonder if anyone considered the fact that the ethylene glycol you use in your radiator is flammable. It would be pretty tough to light on fire mixed 50/50 with water. The *real* question you should be asking, is if many folks know that the LD/50 dose for ethylene glycol is 1/4 cup for a human adult. If a bunch of folks ingest that amount, about half of them will die. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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R12 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
"jim rozen" wrote in message
... ... is if many folks know that the LD/50 dose ... Is that like a half life? Tim -- In the immortal words of Ned Flanders: "No foot longs!" Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
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R12 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
"Tim Williams" wrote in message ... ... is if many folks know that the LD/50 dose ... Is that like a half life? Exactly the opposite Vaughn |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
"Greg O" wrote in message ... Ok! I found it! It is in the EPA's Final Rule, dated December 30, 1997. If you read through it you will see that they no longer include the term " for consideration". All techs servicing MVAC systems must be EPA 609 certified. All techs must recover, no venting. Guidelines for recovery equipment, and more! It is all in there! http://epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/regu.../62fr68026.pdf Your info is older information! It is from the EPA's current web page http://www.epa.gov/oar/caa/caa609.txt For you to be correct, the EPA site would have to be some six years out of date (OK, we are talking about the US government here so that is not TOO great a stretch) Read it and weep! Weep? You make this sound like this is an argument, I thought we were just digging for the facts. The Federal Register link is a good find! I have not had time to digest all 33 pages, but I am not finding the same stuff that you are finding. The damn pdf does not seem to allow copying, so look at 82.34 on page 23. The "Consideration" language seems to be intact. There may be some good stuff that I haven't found yet, particularly in the pages that discuss the EPA's intent. Vaughn Greg |
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R12 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:16:51 -0500, David A. Webb
wrote: Wonder if anyone considered the fact that the ethylene glycol you use in your radiator is flammable. Dave Anybody else notice that the windshiel washer stuff they have in the buckets at the gas station is VERY flammable? Like we are talking 15 foot diameter fireball if you try to us it to put out an engine fire. Being as it was winter and the stuff wasn't frozen I should have clued in, but I was kinda in a hurry as my new spark plug wires were getting burnt. Was filling with gas at the time, some people are nervous about somone leaving their engine running while filling, this one put that in perspective. If anyone is interested in the whole story let me know, in retrospect it was really a comical series of events. Dave |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
"David A. Webb" wrote in message ... On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:48:50 -0500, "Greg O" wrote: Go to page 19, end of the page, starting section F Sales Restriction. There it clearly states that is is illegal for anyone to possess refrigerant without certification in containers less than 20 lbs.. Later the paragragh mentions that the rules where changed again to include any size container. Actually, it says it is illegal to SELL it to anyone who does not have a license. It says nothing about possession. Dave \ Oops, got me there! But since it is illegal to do anything with it once you possess it, what you gonna do with it?? Sell it to someone with certification is your only "legal" choice! Greg |
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R15 (old) Car Freon Cans (1-2)
"Greg O" wrote in message ... "Vaughn Simon" wrote in message ... Read it and weep! Weep? You make this sound like this is an argument, I thought we were just digging for the facts. Don't get your panties in a knot, I am just screwing with you! Go to page 19, end of the page, starting section F Sales Restriction. There it clearly states that is is illegal for anyone to possess refrigerant without certification in containers less than 20 lbs.. Later the paragragh mentions that the rules where changed again to include any size container. Another poster cannot find any prohibition to possession, I haven't looked. AND, The section you mention, 82.34,(a)No person repairing or servicing MVACs for consideration, and no person repairing or servicing MVAC like appliances, may perform any service involving the refrigerant for such MVAC or MVAC like appliance: If you are NOT a "person repairing or servicing MVACs for consideration" or a "person repairing or servicing MVAC like appliances", then (1) and (2) below do not apply. (1) Without properly using equipment approved pursuant to 82.36; (2) Unless any such person repairing or servicing an MVAC has been properly trained and CERTIFIED by a technician certification program approved by the administrator pursuant to 82.40; Blah, blah, blah...... In 82.34(a), I do not have a clue why they insist on including the term consideration, it clearly requires everyone to be certified if they are working on MVAC, (motor vehicle air conditioning), or MVAC-like appliances. Notice they do not say technician, they state person. It says what it says and I don't find it particularly confusing unless you are trying to get it to say something that it doesn't say. Pretty clear to me, you need to be certified. That is not clear to me. If you are NOT a "person repairing or servicing MVACs for consideration" and you are NOT a "person repairing or servicing MVAC like appliances", then 82.34,(a) clearly does not apply, (perhaps something ELSE applies, but I haven't found it yet.) Although this government lawyer legalese language can be confusing!! True enough, I am a commercial pilot so I am pretty used to reading through this crap, not to mention having studied Administrative Law in grad. school and I do not (yet) agree with your take on this. Also, this conversation is almost moot because getting certified is such a trivial excercise (a few $ and one night on the Internet) that the EPA license is meaningless. Regards; Vaughn If someone goes as far as to take the test for 608, or 609 this is all covered. It is too bad that the EPA can not simplify it so the basics are covered and if more info is needed THEN you can read through all the BS! Greg |
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