IMO showering as a function is poorly explored and I've never read any
book which discusses the issues and comes up with recommendations.
Most simply deal with aesthetics, impermeability of surfaces, or cost
and difficulty of installation.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about just take the handles of
the average shower faucet: short lever, long lever, cross, ball, ...
Should it turn right or left? What level of sensitivity should the
faucet have? This is not opinion! There is a right answer although the
right answer may not be implementable because of costs or aesthetics.

Does anyone know of a book or website that discusses bathroom design
considerations from a perspective of functionality and ergonomics?

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 06:19:03 GMT, SpamFree
wrote:

IMO showering as a function is poorly explored and I've never read any
book which discusses the issues and comes up with recommendations.
Most simply deal with aesthetics, impermeability of surfaces, or cost
and difficulty of installation.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about just take the handles of
the average shower faucet: short lever, long lever, cross, ball, ...
Should it turn right or left? What level of sensitivity should the
faucet have? This is not opinion! There is a right answer although the
right answer may not be implementable because of costs or aesthetics.

Does anyone know of a book or website that discusses bathroom design
considerations from a perspective of functionality and ergonomics?


Just visited a friends bathroom remodel in a San Francisco Victorian.

I couldn't believe how much bad design was put in the name of fashion.
The claw foot tubs were riding high and difficult to step into, the
surrounding shower curtain is icky to touch and gives a feeling of
claustrophobia. The diverter valve required a full 360 turn to turn
on the shower. Single handle faucets are much easier to control flow
and temperature, but these were nowhere to be found. She had a
portable shower nozzle on a hose, but it weighed a ton and was awkward
and difficult to aim and adjust.

Not one bathroom vanity had a single handled valve. Just the inferior
hot and cold mixing valves. I longed for my simple design 1991
molded tub shower combo and solid and functional Moen Faucets.

Beachcomber

SpamFree wrote:

Does anyone know of a book or website that discusses bathroom design
considerations from a perspective of functionality and ergonomics?

You might look for an old (1960?) paperback called "The Bathroom."

Nick

"SpamFree" wrote in message
...
IMO showering as a function is poorly explored and I've never read any
book which discusses the issues and comes up with recommendations.
Most simply deal with aesthetics, impermeability of surfaces, or cost
and difficulty of installation.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about just take the handles of
the average shower faucet: short lever, long lever, cross, ball, ...
Should it turn right or left? What level of sensitivity should the
faucet have? This is not opinion! There is a right answer although the
right answer may not be implementable because of costs or aesthetics.

Does anyone know of a book or website that discusses bathroom design
considerations from a perspective of functionality and ergonomics?



Not opinion? Right answer? I don't agree. Can the ergonomics be improved?
Here is where I agree.

Here is how I would approach your design, form follows function.

Is this a straight shower or a shower bath combination? In a straight
shower I would put the valves at a convenient height. Consider who is going
to usually use the shower. I prefer not to bend over to adjust the valves
so somewhere around elbow height is good, but if you have kids lower might
be a compromise position.

I also like either a single handle or a dual handle with easy and shower
actuation. Specifically I like those ceramic disk valves. they give you
1/4 turn from full on drip-less shut off.

If you have a tub/shower combination then you need to set the valves lower
so they can be operated from sitting in the tub or put in two sets of
valves.

I find the valve placement to be the least of my complaints with showers
however, it is the height of the shower head. When I redid the shower
valves in my house I set the shower head a little above 6 feet and got one
of those swing arms. This allows the user to put the spray where he/she
chooses.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

Beachcomber wrote:
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 06:19:03 GMT, SpamFree
wrote:


IMO showering as a function is poorly explored and I've never read any
book which discusses the issues and comes up with recommendations.
Most simply deal with aesthetics, impermeability of surfaces, or cost
and difficulty of installation.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about just take the handles of
the average shower faucet: short lever, long lever, cross, ball, ...
Should it turn right or left? What level of sensitivity should the
faucet have? This is not opinion! There is a right answer although the
right answer may not be implementable because of costs or aesthetics.

Does anyone know of a book or website that discusses bathroom design
considerations from a perspective of functionality and ergonomics?



Just visited a friends bathroom remodel in a San Francisco Victorian.

I couldn't believe how much bad design was put in the name of fashion.
The claw foot tubs were riding high and difficult to step into, the
surrounding shower curtain is icky to touch and gives a feeling of
claustrophobia. The diverter valve required a full 360 turn to turn
on the shower. Single handle faucets are much easier to control flow
and temperature, but these were nowhere to be found. She had a
portable shower nozzle on a hose, but it weighed a ton and was awkward
and difficult to aim and adjust.

Not one bathroom vanity had a single handled valve. Just the inferior
hot and cold mixing valves. I longed for my simple design 1991
molded tub shower combo and solid and functional Moen Faucets.

Beachcomber



Now I can't agree with your desire for single handle
controls. I very much prefer double handles. The past
few years I have been redoing the fixtures all over the
house and putting in double handles, except in the
shower. I find that I can much more precisely control
everything by having the double handle controls.

By the way the shower has a single handle control only
because that is the way pressure balancing controls
come, unless you want to spend quite a bit more money.

Bill Gill

The Bathroom copyright 1966, 1976 by Alexander Kira of Cornell
University School of Architecture.
ISBN 0-670-0612-2 or 0-670-14897-0
TB

"Beachcomber" wrote in message
.. .

Just visited a friends bathroom remodel in a San Francisco Victorian.

I couldn't believe how much bad design was put in the name of fashion.

What's worse is she probably paid a huge sum of money for that nonsense.
When they sell the house someday, the buyers will probably want to subtract
$15 thousand from the selling price to make the room normal again. :-)

"SpamFree" wrote in message
...
IMO showering as a function is poorly explored and I've never read any
book which discusses the issues and comes up with recommendations.
Most simply deal with aesthetics, impermeability of surfaces, or cost
and difficulty of installation.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about just take the handles of
the average shower faucet: short lever, long lever, cross, ball, ...
Should it turn right or left? What level of sensitivity should the
faucet have? This is not opinion! There is a right answer although the
right answer may not be implementable because of costs or aesthetics.

Does anyone know of a book or website that discusses bathroom design
considerations from a perspective of functionality and ergonomics?



Personally, I liked the "Perfect Guy Bathroom" on an episode of "Home
Improvement" years ago:

-Seamless stainless steel wall & floors, and a floor drain so the whole room
could be hosed down like a butcher shop
-Large TV behind sealed glass, with a windshield wiper, visible from toilet
or tub.

Other stuff, too, but I don't recall them all. Too funny, though. :-)

I've never found stainless steel to be easy to clean. It looks bad
unless clean.

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 14:15:04 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"SpamFree" wrote in message
.. .
IMO showering as a function is poorly explored and I've never read any
book which discusses the issues and comes up with recommendations.
Most simply deal with aesthetics, impermeability of surfaces, or cost
and difficulty of installation.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about just take the handles of
the average shower faucet: short lever, long lever, cross, ball, ...
Should it turn right or left? What level of sensitivity should the
faucet have? This is not opinion! There is a right answer although the
right answer may not be implementable because of costs or aesthetics.

Does anyone know of a book or website that discusses bathroom design
considerations from a perspective of functionality and ergonomics?



Personally, I liked the "Perfect Guy Bathroom" on an episode of "Home
Improvement" years ago:

-Seamless stainless steel wall & floors, and a floor drain so the whole room
could be hosed down like a butcher shop
-Large TV behind sealed glass, with a windshield wiper, visible from toilet
or tub.

Other stuff, too, but I don't recall them all. Too funny, though. :-)

SpamFree wrote in
:

IMO showering as a function is poorly explored and I've never read any
book which discusses the issues and comes up with recommendations.
Most simply deal with aesthetics, impermeability of surfaces, or cost
and difficulty of installation.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about just take the handles of
the average shower faucet: short lever, long lever, cross, ball, ...
Should it turn right or left? What level of sensitivity should the
faucet have? This is not opinion! There is a right answer although the
right answer may not be implementable because of costs or aesthetics.

I don't think you will find a book describing the ergonomics of faucet
handles, and some of your questions won't have any "right answer". Faucet
handles should be easy to grasp, obvious in function, consistent in their
actions, and require low force levels to move. Everything else is style.

If it worries you, you can put in automatic sensors that turn the water on
whenever you get near the shower nozzle -- no faucet handles at all.

Does anyone know of a book or website that discusses bathroom design
considerations from a perspective of functionality and ergonomics?

For a book that describes human body sizes, movements, and the required
spaces:

Human Dimensions & Interior Space
Juliues Panero and MArtin Zelnik
ISBN 0-85139-4574

If you want recommendations for your shower, just ask. I am certainly
happy with my latest shower, including the faucet handles.

Murray Peterson wrote:

SpamFree wrote in
:

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about just take the handles of
the average shower faucet: short lever, long lever, cross, ball, ...
Should it turn right or left? What level of sensitivity should the
faucet have? This is not opinion! There is a right answer although the
right answer may not be implementable because of costs or aesthetics.

I don't think you will find a book describing the ergonomics of faucet
handles, and some of your questions won't have any "right answer". Faucet
handles should be easy to grasp, obvious in function, consistent in their
actions, and require low force levels to move. Everything else is style.

OK, that's ergonomics but it's not as obvious as you make out. Is a
"knob" (usually cheap and often crystal) type easy to grasp with soapy
hands? I have some cross types (Chicago Faucets) for my bucket filler
which are lethal: the arms of the cross are too long and too sharp.
Lever types (especially singles) are not obvious in function, at least
to me. The first time I saw one (in a hotel somewhere) I asked for an
instruction manual. "Low force levels" would seem to be correct but
really you don't want such low force levels that the lever moves on
its own, nor that the slightest nudge from you goes from boiling to
freezing.

But if you do the Consumer Reports -type testing or where appropriate
the epidemiologist's scientific type you'll take all the above and
many more items into consideration and arrive at a correct solution.
It's this work and testing that I hope someone else has done and
published.


a book that describes human body sizes, movements, and the required
spaces:

Human Dimensions & Interior Space
Juliues Panero and MArtin Zelnik
ISBN 0-85139-4574

I'm not sure that's quite what I'm after but thanks anyway.

If you want recommendations for your shower, just ask. I am certainly
happy with my latest shower, including the faucet handles.

Sample size = one. Category = anecdote. Utility = (nicely) modest.

Now if I could collect a few thousand people like this, structure
their responses, have them shift to other people's homes (get some
experience), I could write my own book. g

"Doug Kanter" wrote:


"SpamFree" wrote in message
.. .

Does anyone know of a book or website that discusses bathroom design
considerations from a perspective of functionality and ergonomics?


Personally, I liked the "Perfect Guy Bathroom" on an episode of "Home
Improvement" years ago:

-Seamless stainless steel wall & floors, and a floor drain so the whole room
could be hosed down like a butcher shop

Wouldn't this have expansion and contraction problems? Further
seamless SS the size of a bathroom would be impossible. Maybe welded
seams. The central floor drain however is a great idea but you know
what you're probably going to end up with: institutional showers as in
a gym. Monolithic concrete walls and floor and indeed a high pressure
hose for cleaning.

-Large TV behind sealed glass, with a windshield wiper, visible from toilet
or tub.

Nah, showers are for showering.

"Roger Shoaf" wrote:


"SpamFree" wrote in message
.. .
IMO showering as a function is poorly explored and I've never read any
book which discusses the issues and comes up with recommendations.
Most simply deal with aesthetics, impermeability of surfaces, or cost
and difficulty of installation.

Not opinion? Right answer? I don't agree. Can the ergonomics be improved?
Here is where I agree.

Here is how I would approach your design, form follows function.

Aaagh! The Chicago School, I believe. Ratbag architects who announced
that principle and then immediately put gargoyles on their buildings.
(Alright warding off demons IS a function but they can't be serious.)
If they actually followed this principle all our buildings would be
Stalinesque. Personally I think that would be a great development; I
have no patience with the architect as "artiste". Death to I.M. Pei
for his Louvre glass monstrosity; to Joen Utzon for the Sydney Opera
House; to Frank Lloyd Wright for the Johnson Wax stupidity and Falling
Water; and to whoever did the Guggenheim. (If they're already dead, go
desecrate their graves.)

(Sorry I got carried away there. g)

Is this a straight shower or a shower bath combination? In a straight
shower I would put the valves at a convenient height. Consider who is going
to usually use the shower. I prefer not to bend over to adjust the valves
so somewhere around elbow height is good, but if you have kids lower might
be a compromise position.

You can't (put them at a convenient height). Too many! Consider the
following showering functions:

- bucket filling (not quite showering but a convenient place for it
and also performs the function of bringing full heat hot water to the
valve panel)

- full pressure wall- and floor-washing hose

- general full body shower

- intimate area washing shower (hand held)

- hair washing shower

- feet soaking tub (not quite showering but has to go on concurrently)

Each of these has to have a valve(s) plus drainage diverter valves to
empty the pipes so that next time you use each of them you won't have
a head of cold water. In total I count 16 valves or at least handles.

Showering is incompatible with a bathtub. Tubs are for small children
and dogs.

I also like either a single handle or a dual handle with easy and shower
actuation. Specifically I like those ceramic disk valves. they give you
1/4 turn from full on drip-less shut off.

OK but I suspect that you haven't investigated Chicago Faucet's
Quarturn valves, or the Grobe, or some of the English faucets using
ball valves.

I find the valve placement to be the least of my complaints with showers
however, it is the height of the shower head. When I redid the shower
valves in my house I set the shower head a little above 6 feet and got one
of those swing arms.

Has it leaked yet?

This allows the user to put the spray where he/she
chooses.

The principle though (of height of shower outlet) is of maximum
importance. It's amazing what even an inch up or down can do. For
children the answer is multiple level shower heads with the desired
one chosen by opening and closing tile stops. (More valves! g)

SpamFree wrote in
:

[snip]
But if you do the Consumer Reports -type testing or where appropriate
the epidemiologist's scientific type you'll take all the above and
many more items into consideration and arrive at a correct solution.
It's this work and testing that I hope someone else has done and
published.

Not if you are looking for the part number of the "perfect faucet" --
that's as likely as finding the "perfect car". Personal preference plays
too big a part for there to be any single "correct" faucet.

Now if I could collect a few thousand people like this, structure
their responses, have them shift to other people's homes (get some
experience), I could write my own book. g

That's a different book than the one you asked for.


Please don't misunderstand me here -- I am very aware that there are very
many badly designed and built faucets. They can be too difficult to grasp
or turn, poor temperature adjustment, uncomfortable, difficult to clean,
even short lived and leaky. On the other hand, there are some out there
that are well built and ergonomically satisfying. The trick isn't finding
the perfect faucet, but to find one that is "good enough" (or even
"great").

Pjx:

I've never found stainless steel to be easy to clean.

There are spray stainless cleaners that will make it look new... spray,
wipe, done.

--
Mac Cool

SpamFree wrote in
:

The principle though (of height of shower outlet) is of maximum
importance. It's amazing what even an inch up or down can do. For
children the answer is multiple level shower heads with the desired
one chosen by opening and closing tile stops. (More valves! g)

Why not just buy a European style slide bar, with the shower nozzle on the
end of a 5 foot hose? The slide bar allows the head to be infinitely
adjusted over a 2-3 foot height range, and the hose allows you to use it
directly on your pet dog (or the bottom of your feet :-).

"SpamFree" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:


"SpamFree" wrote in message
. ..

Does anyone know of a book or website that discusses bathroom design
considerations from a perspective of functionality and ergonomics?


Personally, I liked the "Perfect Guy Bathroom" on an episode of "Home
Improvement" years ago:

-Seamless stainless steel wall & floors, and a floor drain so the whole
room
could be hosed down like a butcher shop

Wouldn't this have expansion and contraction problems? Further
seamless SS the size of a bathroom would be impossible. Maybe welded
seams.

Of course - welding would be the only way. That works, though.

The central floor drain however is a great idea but you know
what you're probably going to end up with: institutional showers as in
a gym. Monolithic concrete walls and floor and indeed a high pressure
hose for cleaning.

Why concrete? Regular studs would support the metal. And, I like the idea of
the hose! Think of the typical bathroom - you need two or three approaches
for cleaning the various materials (tile, painted wall, or wallpaper, if
you're insane). Stainless steel - one approach.

"SpamFree" wrote in message
...

Lever types (especially singles) are not obvious in function, at least
to me. The first time I saw one (in a hotel somewhere) I asked for an
instruction manual.

Up until this point, I appreciated your goals. But now, I'm wondering if you
iron your socks.

In article ,
"Roger Shoaf" wrote:

Is this a straight shower or a shower bath combination? In a straight
shower I would put the valves at a convenient height. Consider who is going
to usually use the shower. I prefer not to bend over to adjust the valves
so somewhere around elbow height is good, but if you have kids lower might
be a compromise position.

I did something similiar when I built my bathroom; I have separate
calves for shower and tub, both placed on the SIDE where you can adjust
temperature without getting scalded. The tub spout has a diverter and a
shower head on a hose for tub cleaning, kids, etc.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Why concrete? Regular studs would support the metal. And, I like the idea of
the hose! Think of the typical bathroom - you need two or three approaches
for cleaning the various materials (tile, painted wall, or wallpaper, if
you're insane). Stainless steel - one approach.

Poured epoxy looks like a better idea, to me.. Truely seamless, multiple colors
and patterns, chemically resistant, textured non-skid surfaces....

wrote in message ...

Why concrete? Regular studs would support the metal. And, I like the idea
of
the hose! Think of the typical bathroom - you need two or three
approaches
for cleaning the various materials (tile, painted wall, or wallpaper, if
you're insane). Stainless steel - one approach.

Poured epoxy looks like a better idea, to me.. Truely seamless, multiple
colors
and patterns, chemically resistant, textured non-skid surfaces....




How would you pour the walls? Turn the room on its side? :-)

"Doug Kanter" wrote:

"SpamFree" wrote in message
.. .

Lever types (especially singles) are not obvious in function, at least
to me. The first time I saw one (in a hotel somewhere) I asked for an
instruction manual.

Up until this point, I appreciated your goals. But now, I'm wondering if you
iron your socks.

LOL! No I don't iron my socks or anything at all for that matter
(after I get through with the shower I'll redesign the functionality
of the laundry).

The single lever faucet is not so easy to understand. How can a single
lever control both the heat of the water and its flow (cfm)? Is there
some nanny deciding what temperature water I should shower in? If I
take too much hot the great-nanny-in-the-sky will come along and say
"You have to eat the cake too, not just the icing" or in this case
"Here's some cold to give some pain with your pleasure." In fact,
depending on water flow this does really happen. I want more water so
I push the lever all the way to the left but that then makes the water
too hot. How do I get more water without increasing or decreasing the
temperature? Yeah, I know now--change the shower head--but it's not so
obvious especially the first time you see one.

Murray Peterson wrote:

SpamFree wrote in
:

The principle though (of height of shower outlet) is of maximum
importance. It's amazing what even an inch up or down can do. For
children the answer is multiple level shower heads with the desired
one chosen by opening and closing tile stops. (More valves! g)

Why not just buy a European style slide bar, with the shower nozzle on the
end of a 5 foot hose? The slide bar allows the head to be infinitely
adjusted over a 2-3 foot height range, and the hose allows you to use it
directly on your pet dog (or the bottom of your feet :-).

There are woodworking tools that perform the function of table saw,
shaper, jointer, plane, etc and probably make coffee when not
otherwise occupied but most of us don't use them. We have dedicated
function machines mostly because the set up time and effort each time
you want to change the job of the multi-function tool is too much. So
it goes here.

Imagine a six year old struggling to re-position that shower head;
even I'd have a problem and I'm sure my wife would just throw up her
hands in horror and insist on an immediate change. Maybe those sliding
showers are OK where the users are all young adults but not for kids
or those of us who require instruction manuals for single lever
faucets (see my other post).

As to the other items these require different heads and to be in
operation concurrently with the main shower (maybe the dog doesn't but
I don't think he's even a candidate for my shower due to his claws).
For ex: the intimate area washing head should produce a stream similar
to a kitchen faucet (this is the sort of stream bidets produce) and
needs to be at a lower temperature than the main shower. Your
shoulders can take a lot more heat than your...er, unmentionables.

The feet washer isn't exactly for washing and isn't really a shower.
The purpose is to soak your toenails preparatory to cutting them,
something shower-only people give short shrift too. I don't really
know how to do this but someone must have figured it out (wishful
thinking perhaps?).

SpamFree wrote in
:



We have dedicated function machines mostly because the set up time and
effort each time you want to change the job of the multi-function tool
is too much. So it goes here.

I can't agree with you here. The slide bar with a handset on a hose is
easy to use, infinitely adjustable, and requires no effort to switch from
one use to another. You can get slidebars that are usable (and adjustable)
by anyone old enough to take a shower by themselves. Match this with a
faucet that allows fast and precise temperature (and volume) changes, and
you have a very nice system indeed.

"SpamFree" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

"SpamFree" wrote in message
. ..

Lever types (especially singles) are not obvious in function, at least
to me. The first time I saw one (in a hotel somewhere) I asked for an
instruction manual.

Up until this point, I appreciated your goals. But now, I'm wondering if
you
iron your socks.

LOL! No I don't iron my socks or anything at all for that matter
(after I get through with the shower I'll redesign the functionality
of the laundry).

The single lever faucet is not so easy to understand. How can a single
lever control both the heat of the water and its flow (cfm)? Is there
some nanny deciding what temperature water I should shower in? If I
take too much hot the great-nanny-in-the-sky will come along and say
"You have to eat the cake too, not just the icing" or in this case
"Here's some cold to give some pain with your pleasure." In fact,
depending on water flow this does really happen. I want more water so
I push the lever all the way to the left but that then makes the water
too hot. How do I get more water without increasing or decreasing the
temperature? Yeah, I know now--change the shower head--but it's not so
obvious especially the first time you see one.



Who cares how it works? I have a single knob Moen in the shower. It works. A
few years back, the debris from the deteriorating dip tube in my water
heater caused problems inside the Moen faucet. Moen sent me new parts for
free, although the problem was in no way the fault of their product. So....a
faucet that works and a company that's obsessive about keeping customers
happy.

Oh....and the Moen was installed when my son was about 3. He figured it out
immediately. :-) Any kids in your family who could assist you when faucets
confuse you?