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#1
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Turbine in my furnace?
I've never had a house with air-conditioning before -- this is the
first. I notice that the furnace makes a considerable amount of noise, of a type I am unfamiliar with. Maybe someone can help me understand what's going on. Physical Description of system: forced-air natural gas furnace of the type I am used to seeing here in Southern California. It has air intake in the bottom, and hot air comes out the top which goes through sheet-metal ducting to registers throughout the house. Pretty normal so far. But above this furnace is another sheet metal box that that round ducting of the sort that Terry Gilliam put behind the walls in "Brazil" snaking off somewhere. Outside the house is a 2' x 2' x 3' metal cage with a circular grille on top and a fearsome-looking fan inside. I reckon this is some kind of heat exchanger. Description of noise: With a "normal" furnace I expect to hear the gas valve open, a soft "whoosh" as the burner ignites and after some 30 seconds or so, the blower kicks in. With /this/ system, the moment I turn on the heat there is this jet engine whine that starts immediately and eminates from the furnace closet. The burner lights and after some 30 seconds, the blower turns on. What the heck is the jet engine whine? -- Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus 84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)" KG6RCR |
#2
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It sound like you have a high efficency condensing furnace, the whine is
a motor blowing the system clear. |
#3
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#4
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"Bubba" wrote in message A motor, blowing the system clear? Ransley. Where do you come up with these terms? I believe you are talking about a Draft Inducer venter motor. It doesnt blow. It provides a negative pressure inside the heat exchanger. Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace? How about a model and serial number? Bubba I don't know about the draft inducer on a home heater, but I do know a little about some gas fired boilers. Why is a negative pressure needed? I'm licensed to operate high pressure steam boilers up to 300 horsepower. Any time the boiler is started, the blower comes on and there is a purge cycle. This is to clear the boiler and stack of any unburned gasses that may be in there. On modern equipment this is programmed into the controller, but on older systems it was done manually. Maybe Ransly knows about some home models that are similar. |
#5
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On 12/20/2004 2:45 PM Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:12 -0600, (m Ransley) wrote: Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace? How about a model and serial number? Bubba Oh, I get it: making me /work/ for my free advice! Well, I can play that game as well as anyone. The furnace is labeled "Goodman Manufacturing Co," model GMP100-4 (rev B) Mounted on the frontside, above the burners, is what appears to be a squirrel-cage blower about 8'' across in an enclosure. The input side faces into the furnace. This blower exits into a 5'' diameter round metal (galvanized steel?) vent pipe that vanishes up into the ceiling of the furnace closet. When I turn on the heat, the sequence of events is: WHIRRRRR (the turbine sound, comes from the squirrel-cage blower) pause for 30 seconds Tik-tik-tik (piezo starter) "Whump" (gas ignites) pause another minute or so Vwoooooom (main furnace blower pumping air into the heating ducts) After a short bit of time, the small 5'' duct gets hot. What do I have here -- a furnace with a forced-air burner chamber exhaust? Never had such a thing before. Oh -- I forgot. In the morning, shortly following the "WHIRRRR" of the small blower, you can hear the dead awakening and cursing the noise. -- Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus 84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)" KG6RCR |
#6
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On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:11:29 -0800, "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
et wrote: On 12/20/2004 2:45 PM Bubba wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:12 -0600, (m Ransley) wrote: Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace? How about a model and serial number? Bubba Oh, I get it: making me /work/ for my free advice! Well, I can play that game as well as anyone. The furnace is labeled "Goodman Manufacturing Co," model GMP100-4 (rev B) Mounted on the frontside, above the burners, is what appears to be a squirrel-cage blower about 8'' across in an enclosure. The input side faces into the furnace. This blower exits into a 5'' diameter round metal (galvanized steel?) vent pipe that vanishes up into the ceiling of the furnace closet. When I turn on the heat, the sequence of events is: WHIRRRRR (the turbine sound, comes from the squirrel-cage blower) pause for 30 seconds Tik-tik-tik (piezo starter) "Whump" (gas ignites) pause another minute or so Vwoooooom (main furnace blower pumping air into the heating ducts) After a short bit of time, the small 5'' duct gets hot. What do I have here -- a furnace with a forced-air burner chamber exhaust? Never had such a thing before. Oh -- I forgot. In the morning, shortly following the "WHIRRRR" of the small blower, you can hear the dead awakening and cursing the noise. Now that helps a lot. Oh, the free advice...............its not free. hehe. You thought I was goina tell you for free what people pay me for. Yur killin me man.....yur just killin me. Bubba |
#7
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Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day On 20-Dec-04 At About 00:00:01, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All Subject: Turbine in my furnace? MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net MRJSE The inducer fan's noise is not audible through the ducting. It comes MRJSE right out of the closet. Which has a louvered door. Exactly NOT the MRJSE kind of door I'd choose to use for sound-isolating. The louvered door is to allow for combustion air and is needed. -= HvacTech2 =- ... "After they make styrofoam, what do they ship it in?" - s.w. ___ TagDude 0.92á+[DM] ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++ spam protection measure, Please remove the 33 to send e-mail |
#8
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Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:
On 12/20/2004 2:45 PM Bubba wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:12 -0600, (m Ransley) wrote: Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace? How about a model and serial number? Bubba Oh, I get it: making me /work/ for my free advice! Well, I can play that game as well as anyone. The furnace is labeled "Goodman Manufacturing Co," model GMP100-4 (rev B) Mounted on the frontside, above the burners, is what appears to be a squirrel-cage blower about 8'' across in an enclosure. The input side faces into the furnace. This blower exits into a 5'' diameter round metal (galvanized steel?) vent pipe that vanishes up into the ceiling of the furnace closet. When I turn on the heat, the sequence of events is: WHIRRRRR (the turbine sound, comes from the squirrel-cage blower) pause for 30 seconds Tik-tik-tik (piezo starter) "Whump" (gas ignites) pause another minute or so Vwoooooom (main furnace blower pumping air into the heating ducts) After a short bit of time, the small 5'' duct gets hot. What do I have here -- a furnace with a forced-air burner chamber exhaust? Never had such a thing before. Oh -- I forgot. In the morning, shortly following the "WHIRRRR" of the small blower, you can hear the dead awakening and cursing the noise. Yep, it is the inducer fan, induces a flow of air through the burn chamber and up the chimney. Somebody did a very poor seal around that fan in my furnace and it caused the furnace to not operate correctly. (A safety feature is a pressure switch that needs a negative pressure to operate and maintain the burn). Just hope you never have to replace the little, noisy SOB. They will cost you upwards of $300. Glad I don't have a high efficiency water heater too. Sounds like you have an exceptionally noise furnace. The burner on mine makes way more noise than the inducer fan or the distribution fan. It is probably normal for your furnace. A few kinks (of the sound trapping kind)in your air system might be able to reduce noise distribution from your furnace. |
#9
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On 12/20/2004 10:27 PM George E. Cawthon wrote:
Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote: On 12/20/2004 2:45 PM Bubba wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:12 -0600, (m Ransley) wrote: Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace? How about a model and serial number? Bubba Oh, I get it: making me /work/ for my free advice! Well, I can play that game as well as anyone. The furnace is labeled "Goodman Manufacturing Co," model GMP100-4 (rev B) Mounted on the frontside, above the burners, is what appears to be a squirrel-cage blower about 8'' across in an enclosure. The input side faces into the furnace. This blower exits into a 5'' diameter round metal (galvanized steel?) vent pipe that vanishes up into the ceiling of the furnace closet. When I turn on the heat, the sequence of events is: WHIRRRRR (the turbine sound, comes from the squirrel-cage blower) pause for 30 seconds Tik-tik-tik (piezo starter) "Whump" (gas ignites) pause another minute or so Vwoooooom (main furnace blower pumping air into the heating ducts) After a short bit of time, the small 5'' duct gets hot. What do I have here -- a furnace with a forced-air burner chamber exhaust? Never had such a thing before. Oh -- I forgot. In the morning, shortly following the "WHIRRRR" of the small blower, you can hear the dead awakening and cursing the noise. Yep, it is the inducer fan, induces a flow of air through the burn chamber and up the chimney. I've never had a furnace with an inducer fan. Was I just lucky? How does an inducer fan affect the performance of a furnace? I mean -- why the frick would someone want to mount such a noisy little bugger onto an applicance which up until now I considered a fairly quiet device? Sounds like you have an exceptionally noise furnace. The burner on mine makes way more noise than the inducer fan or the distribution fan. It is probably normal for your furnace. A few kinks (of the sound trapping kind)in your air system might be able to reduce noise distribution from your furnace. The inducer fan's noise is not audible through the ducting. It comes right out of the closet. Which has a louvered door. Exactly NOT the kind of door I'd choose to use for sound-isolating. -- Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus 84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)" KG6RCR ------------------------------------ Today's Deep Thought: "Hey, dad, remember our car?" -- Calvin ------------------------------------ |
#10
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On 12/20/2004 8:27 PM Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:11:29 -0800, "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" et wrote: On 12/20/2004 2:45 PM Bubba wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:12 -0600, (m Ransley) wrote: Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace? How about a model and serial number? Bubba Oh, I get it: making me /work/ for my free advice! Well, I can play that game as well as anyone. The furnace is labeled "Goodman Manufacturing Co," model GMP100-4 (rev B) Mounted on the frontside, above the burners, is what appears to be a squirrel-cage blower about 8'' across in an enclosure. The input side faces into the furnace. This blower exits into a 5'' diameter round metal (galvanized steel?) vent pipe that vanishes up into the ceiling of the furnace closet. When I turn on the heat, the sequence of events is: WHIRRRRR (the turbine sound, comes from the squirrel-cage blower) pause for 30 seconds Tik-tik-tik (piezo starter) "Whump" (gas ignites) pause another minute or so Vwoooooom (main furnace blower pumping air into the heating ducts) After a short bit of time, the small 5'' duct gets hot. What do I have here -- a furnace with a forced-air burner chamber exhaust? Never had such a thing before. Oh -- I forgot. In the morning, shortly following the "WHIRRRR" of the small blower, you can hear the dead awakening and cursing the noise. Now that helps a lot. Oh, the free advice...............its not free. hehe. You thought I was goina tell you for free what people pay me for. Yur killin me man.....yur just killin me. All right -- you outsmarted me. Go ahead, hold on to your darn advice. See if I care. sniffle -- Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus 84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)" KG6RCR |
#11
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Bubba what the He## are you doing here if it is not for free helping
advise? Your advise is worth nothing -zip-nada,as it benefits no one on this thread. You are worse than Dave or Stormin in this area, at least they try. Is it a motor blowing- blower motor- motor with blower-inducer-inducer blower- blower- . In the context of OPs question they are equal in my opinion. |
#12
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#13
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On 12/21/2004 6:02 AM HvacTech2 wrote:
Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day On 20-Dec-04 At About 00:00:01, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All Subject: Turbine in my furnace? MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net MRJSE The inducer fan's noise is not audible through the ducting. It comes MRJSE right out of the closet. Which has a louvered door. Exactly NOT the MRJSE kind of door I'd choose to use for sound-isolating. The louvered door is to allow for combustion air and is needed. The whole door -- floor-to-ceiling -- is louvered. I'm used to seeing hollow-core doors with louvered vents a couple square feet in area near the bottom. Given how noisy the inducer blower is, a door that is 50% air might not be the best course. The furnace closet is on concrete slab and not adjacent to any outside walls; if it were not, I would consider giving it a new burner air inlet and putting a solid door on the closet to reduce the inductor-blower noise in the house. So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on any other natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with. -- Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus 84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)" KG6RCR |
#14
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Bubba Ive never serviced even my HVAC.
I call in pros. Real ones unlike you. |
#15
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Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All Subject: Turbine in my furnace? MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on any other MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with. To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the chimney. -= HvacTech2 =- ... "A friend of mine is in jail for counterfeiting pennies..."- s.w. ___ TagDude 0.92á+[DM] ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++ spam protection measure, Please remove the 33 to send e-mail |
#17
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On 12/21/2004 6:35 PM HvacTech2 wrote:
Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All Subject: Turbine in my furnace? MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on any other MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with. To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the chimney. Okay -- it would be interesting to see the difference between "passive" and inducer-blown heat exchangers. I'd really like to reduce the noise output of the furnace. The burner gets its air for combustion though the louved door, which also allows the sound of the inducer blower to fill the house with its loud whine. The exhaust from the inducer blower -- the combustion product -- is vented out of the closet through a 5'' diameter steel pipe chimney to someplace I have not yet noticed, probably up on the roof. Clearly I cannot replace the louvered door with a solid door, as it would seal the closet and provide no place to pull air from for combustion. I could put on a solid door with a small opening -- probably would not need to be any larger in cross-section than the exhaust pipe (about 16 square inches), but that would still leave a path for inducer blower sound to exit the furnace closet. Something else: since the inducer blower sends exhaust out of the the house, then replacement air must enter the house through cracks and other openings. This does not contribute to overall efficiency. So it might make sense to provide an combustion intake opening to the furnace closet that comes from the outdoors. Outside air gets sucked into the closet, through the combustion chamber/heat exchanger, and blown up the chimney by the inducer blower. As mentioned in another fork on this thread, the furnace is in a closet which sits on a concrete slab. It does not share a wall with the outdoors. Since I don't have direct access to the outdoors from the closet, how about using a solid door and running something like dryer exhaust tubing from outside to provide air for combustion? -- Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus 84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)" KG6RCR |
#18
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Bubba I bet ive paid my havc Pros more last month then you made all
year. On repairing my commercial properties. Bubba the clueless wood stove inbred hack. |
#19
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"Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" et wrote in message ... On 12/21/2004 6:35 PM HvacTech2 wrote: Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All Subject: Turbine in my furnace? MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on any other MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with. To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the chimney. Okay -- it would be interesting to see the difference between "passive" and inducer-blown heat exchangers. I'd really like to reduce the noise output of the furnace. The burner gets its air for combustion though the louved door, which also allows the sound of the inducer blower to fill the house with its loud whine. The exhaust from the inducer blower -- the combustion product -- is vented out of the closet through a 5'' diameter steel pipe chimney to someplace I have not yet noticed, probably up on the roof. Clearly I cannot replace the louvered door with a solid door, as it would seal the closet and provide no place to pull air from for combustion. I could put on a solid door with a small opening -- probably would not need to be any larger in cross-section than the exhaust pipe (about 16 square inches), but that would still leave a path for inducer blower sound to exit the furnace closet. Something else: since the inducer blower sends exhaust out of the the house, then replacement air must enter the house through cracks and other openings. This does not contribute to overall efficiency. So it might make sense to provide an combustion intake opening to the furnace closet that comes from the outdoors. Outside air gets sucked into the closet, through the combustion chamber/heat exchanger, and blown up the chimney by the inducer blower. As mentioned in another fork on this thread, the furnace is in a closet which sits on a concrete slab. It does not share a wall with the outdoors. Since I don't have direct access to the outdoors from the closet, how about using a solid door and running something like dryer exhaust tubing from outside to provide air for combustion? -- Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus 84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)" KG6RCR This is Turtle. This can be done to bring in air from outdoors by another sheet metal duct or a flex duct run from the closet ceiling out to the attic or outdoors to bring in air to burn. Then put a solid door and seal it. If you can have room to run a supply duct to it. If you have a 5 inch vent pipe going to the roof you will need atleast a 7 but a 8 inch supply air duct would be better to feed the burners. Now if you was not taking the air to burn from your house and get it from outside it would save on the heating bills. If you want to discuss it e-mail me and talk. TURTLE |
#20
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I'm with TURTLE on this one.
Put in a solid core door for reduction of noise. Don't do that until you have replaced Source air inlet. I believe ducting it in from the ceiling is a do-able idea. However it makes more stuff to filter and such. Filtering will not be for your breathing air, but to keep the ducts from clogging with bird nests and dust and other stuff. Just as a comparison to your heater system, those manufactured fireplaces use three walled Chimney ducting for the flue. Between the outer two pipes, is where the chimney gets it's cooling air. that air is then delivered back up between the inner two pipes. Draw yourself a picture and see if it makes sense to you...............It does work.The actual exhaust from the fire ( smoke and primary heat) goes up though the inside pipe proper. Reason for the explanation is to help understand also, that you could use a triple wall pipe situation for your "chimney" for the heater, and still put a solid core door in there. That way, you won't have to make any major new ducting routes. This is just a thought for pondering, as I think it would be better than code would require also, and could be something that you may be able to find as a kit already manufactured............. I've never heard of the system you are describing, but it makes a good picture in my head the way you described it, Mike. Good luck. This can be done to bring in air from outdoors by another sheet metal duct or a flex duct run from the closet ceiling out to the attic or outdoors to bring in air to burn. Then put a solid door and seal it. If you can have room to run a supply duct to it. If you have a 5 inch vent pipe going to the roof you will need atleast a 7 but a 8 inch supply air duct would be better to feed the burners. Now if you was not taking the air to burn from your house and get it from outside it would save on the heating bills. If you want to discuss it e-mail me and talk. TURTLE Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply MUADIB® http://www.angelfire.com/retro/sster...IN%20PAGE.html one small step for man,..... One giant leap for attorneys. |
#21
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Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:
On 12/20/2004 10:27 PM George E. Cawthon wrote: Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote: On 12/20/2004 2:45 PM Bubba wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:12 -0600, (m Ransley) wrote: Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace? How about a model and serial number? Bubba Oh, I get it: making me /work/ for my free advice! Well, I can play that game as well as anyone. The furnace is labeled "Goodman Manufacturing Co," model GMP100-4 (rev B) Mounted on the frontside, above the burners, is what appears to be a squirrel-cage blower about 8'' across in an enclosure. The input side faces into the furnace. This blower exits into a 5'' diameter round metal (galvanized steel?) vent pipe that vanishes up into the ceiling of the furnace closet. When I turn on the heat, the sequence of events is: WHIRRRRR (the turbine sound, comes from the squirrel-cage blower) pause for 30 seconds Tik-tik-tik (piezo starter) "Whump" (gas ignites) pause another minute or so Vwoooooom (main furnace blower pumping air into the heating ducts) After a short bit of time, the small 5'' duct gets hot. What do I have here -- a furnace with a forced-air burner chamber exhaust? Never had such a thing before. Oh -- I forgot. In the morning, shortly following the "WHIRRRR" of the small blower, you can hear the dead awakening and cursing the noise. Yep, it is the inducer fan, induces a flow of air through the burn chamber and up the chimney. I've never had a furnace with an inducer fan. Was I just lucky? How does an inducer fan affect the performance of a furnace? I mean -- why the frick would someone want to mount such a noisy little bugger onto an applicance which up until now I considered a fairly quiet device? Sounds like you have an exceptionally noise furnace. The burner on mine makes way more noise than the inducer fan or the distribution fan. It is probably normal for your furnace. A few kinks (of the sound trapping kind)in your air system might be able to reduce noise distribution from your furnace. The inducer fan's noise is not audible through the ducting. It comes right out of the closet. Which has a louvered door. Exactly NOT the kind of door I'd choose to use for sound-isolating. Oh well, hell why didn't you say so. Oh, I guess you did. Why do you have a louvered door? Is it part of the air supply for the furnace. If not put something over the louvers. If it is, then put in a separate air supply or fix the louvers so that sound can't travel straight through. The damned inducer is what you pay for having a higher efficiency furnace. Is it worth it? Probably not. |
#22
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Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:
On 12/21/2004 6:35 PM HvacTech2 wrote: Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All Subject: Turbine in my furnace? MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on any other MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with. To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the chimney. Okay -- it would be interesting to see the difference between "passive" and inducer-blown heat exchangers. I'd really like to reduce the noise output of the furnace. The burner gets its air for combustion though the louved door, which also allows the sound of the inducer blower to fill the house with its loud whine. The exhaust from the inducer blower -- the combustion product -- is vented out of the closet through a 5'' diameter steel pipe chimney to someplace I have not yet noticed, probably up on the roof. Clearly I cannot replace the louvered door with a solid door, as it would seal the closet and provide no place to pull air from for combustion. I could put on a solid door with a small opening -- probably would not need to be any larger in cross-section than the exhaust pipe (about 16 square inches), but that would still leave a path for inducer blower sound to exit the furnace closet. Something else: since the inducer blower sends exhaust out of the the house, then replacement air must enter the house through cracks and other openings. This does not contribute to overall efficiency. So it might make sense to provide an combustion intake opening to the furnace closet that comes from the outdoors. Outside air gets sucked into the closet, through the combustion chamber/heat exchanger, and blown up the chimney by the inducer blower. As mentioned in another fork on this thread, the furnace is in a closet which sits on a concrete slab. It does not share a wall with the outdoors. Since I don't have direct access to the outdoors from the closet, how about using a solid door and running something like dryer exhaust tubing from outside to provide air for combustion? The closet has a ceiling right? Is the ceiling the floor to an attic? If so you can get the air for the furnace from the attic, install a solid door, and even install some sound insulation. I suggest that you find out what manufacturer states is needed for the air supply (hint--it will be a lot more than the 5" exhaust). In fact, you will need two air supplies for the closet--one at the ceiling and one at the floor. Not a problem, since both can come from the attic. Get the installation manual from the manufacturer of the furnace. Or, get a furnace man and pay a bundle. |
#23
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"MUADIB®" wrote in message ... I'm with TURTLE on this one. Put in a solid core door for reduction of noise. Don't do that until you have replaced Source air inlet. I believe ducting it in from the ceiling is a do-able idea. However it makes more stuff to filter and such. Filtering will not be for your breathing air, but to keep the ducts from clogging with bird nests and dust and other stuff. Just as a comparison to your heater system, those manufactured fireplaces use three walled Chimney ducting for the flue. Between the outer two pipes, is where the chimney gets it's cooling air. that air is then delivered back up between the inner two pipes. Draw yourself a picture and see if it makes sense to you...............It does work.The actual exhaust from the fire ( smoke and primary heat) goes up though the inside pipe proper. Reason for the explanation is to help understand also, that you could use a triple wall pipe situation for your "chimney" for the heater, and still put a solid core door in there. That way, you won't have to make any major new ducting routes. This is just a thought for pondering, as I think it would be better than code would require also, and could be something that you may be able to find as a kit already manufactured............. I've never heard of the system you are describing, but it makes a good picture in my head the way you described it, Mike. Good luck. This is Turtle. He is drawing air to burn from his house and to the code it could be ok but in general it is just not nice to burn the same air you breath in a house. TURTLE |
#24
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#25
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On 12/21/2004 10:33 PM George E. Cawthon wrote:
Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote: On 12/21/2004 6:35 PM HvacTech2 wrote: Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All Subject: Turbine in my furnace? MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on any other MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with. To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the chimney. Okay -- it would be interesting to see the difference between "passive" and inducer-blown heat exchangers. I'd really like to reduce the noise output of the furnace. The burner gets its air for combustion though the louved door, which also allows the sound of the inducer blower to fill the house with its loud whine. The exhaust from the inducer blower -- the combustion product -- is vented out of the closet through a 5'' diameter steel pipe chimney to someplace I have not yet noticed, probably up on the roof. Clearly I cannot replace the louvered door with a solid door, as it would seal the closet and provide no place to pull air from for combustion. I could put on a solid door with a small opening -- probably would not need to be any larger in cross-section than the exhaust pipe (about 16 square inches), but that would still leave a path for inducer blower sound to exit the furnace closet. Something else: since the inducer blower sends exhaust out of the the house, then replacement air must enter the house through cracks and other openings. This does not contribute to overall efficiency. So it might make sense to provide an combustion intake opening to the furnace closet that comes from the outdoors. Outside air gets sucked into the closet, through the combustion chamber/heat exchanger, and blown up the chimney by the inducer blower. As mentioned in another fork on this thread, the furnace is in a closet which sits on a concrete slab. It does not share a wall with the outdoors. Since I don't have direct access to the outdoors from the closet, how about using a solid door and running something like dryer exhaust tubing from outside to provide air for combustion? The closet has a ceiling right? Is the ceiling the floor to an attic? If so you can get the air for the furnace from the attic, install a solid door, and even install some sound insulation. Alas, the furnace closet is on the ground floor of a two-story house. The furnace chimney does not have a straight-shot up to the roof, but instead takes a turn as it exits the ceiling of the closet and heads upwards through some convoluted path I am unable to see. MUADIB's idea of a coaxial three-wall chimney to both blow and suck through will be tough to make work in this situation. Far easier would be to cut a hole in the side of the closet and run an intake through the laundry room above the washer/dryer to the rear of the house. I suggest that you find out what manufacturer states is needed for the air supply (hint--it will be a lot more than the 5" exhaust). I've been thinking about that. The inducer blower forces combustion products and heated air up the chimney. This creates negative pressure in the closet, so air gets sucked in through whatever opening there is in the closet for fresh air to come in. In my case, the sound-transparent louvered door. Since the exhaust products are hot, it seems to me that for every cubic foot of cold air that comes in, a larger volume of hot stuff goes out, since gases expand when heated (thus hot air balloons). So the intake could be smaller than the output -- unless we want as little resistance for the inducer to have to suck against. That blower may be much better at blowing than sucking. In fact, you will need two air supplies for the closet--one at the ceiling and one at the floor. Not a problem, since both can come from the attic. Two? Is this counting the house air which is heated and blown throughout the house through the ducts? Get the installation manual from the manufacturer of the furnace. Manuals are good for telling what should be done. But not why. That's the realm of smart guys that study these things. -- Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus 84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)" KG6RCR ------------------------------------ Today's Deep Thought: Quote me as saying I was misquoted. -- Groucho Marx ------------------------------------ |
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Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:
On 12/21/2004 10:33 PM George E. Cawthon wrote: Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote: On 12/21/2004 6:35 PM HvacTech2 wrote: Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All Subject: Turbine in my furnace? MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on any other MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with. To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the chimney. Okay -- it would be interesting to see the difference between "passive" and inducer-blown heat exchangers. I'd really like to reduce the noise output of the furnace. The burner gets its air for combustion though the louved door, which also allows the sound of the inducer blower to fill the house with its loud whine. The exhaust from the inducer blower -- the combustion product -- is vented out of the closet through a 5'' diameter steel pipe chimney to someplace I have not yet noticed, probably up on the roof. Clearly I cannot replace the louvered door with a solid door, as it would seal the closet and provide no place to pull air from for combustion. I could put on a solid door with a small opening -- probably would not need to be any larger in cross-section than the exhaust pipe (about 16 square inches), but that would still leave a path for inducer blower sound to exit the furnace closet. Something else: since the inducer blower sends exhaust out of the the house, then replacement air must enter the house through cracks and other openings. This does not contribute to overall efficiency. So it might make sense to provide an combustion intake opening to the furnace closet that comes from the outdoors. Outside air gets sucked into the closet, through the combustion chamber/heat exchanger, and blown up the chimney by the inducer blower. As mentioned in another fork on this thread, the furnace is in a closet which sits on a concrete slab. It does not share a wall with the outdoors. Since I don't have direct access to the outdoors from the closet, how about using a solid door and running something like dryer exhaust tubing from outside to provide air for combustion? The closet has a ceiling right? Is the ceiling the floor to an attic? If so you can get the air for the furnace from the attic, install a solid door, and even install some sound insulation. Alas, the furnace closet is on the ground floor of a two-story house. The furnace chimney does not have a straight-shot up to the roof, but instead takes a turn as it exits the ceiling of the closet and heads upwards through some convoluted path I am unable to see. MUADIB's idea of a coaxial three-wall chimney to both blow and suck through will be tough to make work in this situation. Far easier would be to cut a hole in the side of the closet and run an intake through the laundry room above the washer/dryer to the rear of the house. I suggest that you find out what manufacturer states is needed for the air supply (hint--it will be a lot more than the 5" exhaust). I've been thinking about that. The inducer blower forces combustion products and heated air up the chimney. This creates negative pressure in the closet, so air gets sucked in through whatever opening there is in the closet for fresh air to come in. In my case, the sound-transparent louvered door. Since the exhaust products are hot, it seems to me that for every cubic foot of cold air that comes in, a larger volume of hot stuff goes out, since gases expand when heated (thus hot air balloons). So the intake could be smaller than the output -- unless we want as little resistance for the inducer to have to suck against. That blower may be much better at blowing than sucking. In fact, you will need two air supplies for the closet--one at the ceiling and one at the floor. Not a problem, since both can come from the attic. Two? Is this counting the house air which is heated and blown throughout the house through the ducts? Get the installation manual from the manufacturer of the furnace. Manuals are good for telling what should be done. But not why. That's the realm of smart guys that study these things. Two, yes, and not it doesn't have anything to do with the air blown throughout the house (that comes from the cold air returns). The lower one is for the combustion air. The upper is for ventilation (a safety feature). I believe each is supposed to be 1 sq inch for each 1000 BTU but not less than 100 sq inches. Too bad about the concrete slab, sounds like a PITA. Never lived in a house built on a slab, glad about that too. |
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On 12/22/2004 7:32 PM George E. Cawthon wrote:
Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote: On 12/21/2004 10:33 PM George E. Cawthon wrote: Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote: On 12/21/2004 6:35 PM HvacTech2 wrote: Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All Subject: Turbine in my furnace? MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on any other MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with. To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the chimney. Okay -- it would be interesting to see the difference between "passive" and inducer-blown heat exchangers. I'd really like to reduce the noise output of the furnace. The burner gets its air for combustion though the louved door, which also allows the sound of the inducer blower to fill the house with its loud whine. The exhaust from the inducer blower -- the combustion product -- is vented out of the closet through a 5'' diameter steel pipe chimney to someplace I have not yet noticed, probably up on the roof. Clearly I cannot replace the louvered door with a solid door, as it would seal the closet and provide no place to pull air from for combustion. I could put on a solid door with a small opening -- probably would not need to be any larger in cross-section than the exhaust pipe (about 16 square inches), but that would still leave a path for inducer blower sound to exit the furnace closet. Something else: since the inducer blower sends exhaust out of the the house, then replacement air must enter the house through cracks and other openings. This does not contribute to overall efficiency. So it might make sense to provide an combustion intake opening to the furnace closet that comes from the outdoors. Outside air gets sucked into the closet, through the combustion chamber/heat exchanger, and blown up the chimney by the inducer blower. As mentioned in another fork on this thread, the furnace is in a closet which sits on a concrete slab. It does not share a wall with the outdoors. Since I don't have direct access to the outdoors from the closet, how about using a solid door and running something like dryer exhaust tubing from outside to provide air for combustion? The closet has a ceiling right? Is the ceiling the floor to an attic? If so you can get the air for the furnace from the attic, install a solid door, and even install some sound insulation. Alas, the furnace closet is on the ground floor of a two-story house. The furnace chimney does not have a straight-shot up to the roof, but instead takes a turn as it exits the ceiling of the closet and heads upwards through some convoluted path I am unable to see. MUADIB's idea of a coaxial three-wall chimney to both blow and suck through will be tough to make work in this situation. Far easier would be to cut a hole in the side of the closet and run an intake through the laundry room above the washer/dryer to the rear of the house. I suggest that you find out what manufacturer states is needed for the air supply (hint--it will be a lot more than the 5" exhaust). I've been thinking about that. The inducer blower forces combustion products and heated air up the chimney. This creates negative pressure in the closet, so air gets sucked in through whatever opening there is in the closet for fresh air to come in. In my case, the sound-transparent louvered door. Since the exhaust products are hot, it seems to me that for every cubic foot of cold air that comes in, a larger volume of hot stuff goes out, since gases expand when heated (thus hot air balloons). So the intake could be smaller than the output -- unless we want as little resistance for the inducer to have to suck against. That blower may be much better at blowing than sucking. In fact, you will need two air supplies for the closet--one at the ceiling and one at the floor. Not a problem, since both can come from the attic. Two? Is this counting the house air which is heated and blown throughout the house through the ducts? Get the installation manual from the manufacturer of the furnace. Manuals are good for telling what should be done. But not why. That's the realm of smart guys that study these things. Two, yes, and not it doesn't have anything to do with the air blown throughout the house (that comes from the cold air returns). The lower one is for the combustion air. The upper is for ventilation (a safety feature). Got it -- thanks. I believe each is supposed to be 1 sq inch for each 1000 BTU but not less than 100 sq inches. Too bad about the concrete slab, sounds like a PITA. Never lived in a house built on a slab, glad about that too. Normal construction practice here in SoCal. Earthquakes cause houses to fall into basements or something like that. -- -- Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus 84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)" KG6RCR |
#28
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Turbine in my furnace?
replying to HvacTech2, BRIAN W GUNNING wrote:
Oh man, this whole string was worth the price of entry. Kudos to everyone who threw down for no reason at all. I have two identical furnaces and we had the inducer fan replaced two years ago. Now /that/ furnace makes a great turbine like whine as it starts up, but the other doesn't. So I would cautiously offer than not all inducer motors are the same, and some may be more whiny than others. Our after-market one is WAY louder. Solution? Just imagine you're jumping to light speed every time and it's really a nice sound effect to have in the house. Par for the course folks. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ce-577414-.htm |
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