Greetings,

I have a small 3 bed 2 bath house being built here in a small town in the
Northwest Inland. It should complete by the end of January. The builder is a
small builder that's typical here who has no more that 2 or 3 houses being
built at any given time.

The house is a one level rancher over a crawlspace of about 3' headroom.
Entire house is on the crawlspace, except the garage. It has GFA heating but
no AC. I have no plan to install AC since here in summer there is only time
of 2 or 3 weeks of hot weather.

As I currently live pretty close to that new home, I've got the chance to
visit the site quite a few times as the construction goes on. I did notice
something that I want to talk to the builder (he is very hard to get hold
on) but I want get some ideas first.

Currently it is in the phase of installing HVAC ductwork and plumbing
(installing bath tubs etc). The lot is slightly sloped from back to front.
The neighbor's lot across the backyard is higher than mine, and it goes
lower towards front yard and lower to the street. The builder told me he'd
grade the lot so there is a swale in my backyard that goes on to the sides
and finally to the street. I think it is the right way but he hasn't done
that yet so now the backyard still slopes to the back of the house.

1. I looked into the crawlspace a couple of times. It has a lot of water
there. After a good rain the water is ankle deep. Is it because the lot hasn
't been graded? Is it supposed to be dry even after rain, when grading is
complete?

2. After the foundation walls were poured, I saw them putting two ridged
black plastic pipes (about 6") along the outside of footings all around the
foundation. One has fabric over it. Someone told me the one with fabric is
perforated to collect water that otherwise would seep into the crawlspace.
The gutter downspouts would go to the other pipe. But I don't know to where
these pipes should direct water. I only saw the pipes lying in the trench
but they were not connected to anything!!. The next time I visited they
backfilled it all I saw were a few pipes sticking out a few places. Do these
pipes need to be connected to sewer or something?

3. There are 6 mil sheets on the dirt in the crawlspace (now it is floating
in water). But the sheets cover separate segments because there are two
additional concrete footings running through the space. There are 2x4 lumber
props on these footing to support the floor joists. Is it the right way to
put down the vapor retarder? I guess the concrete footings in the middle
also suck and evaporate a lot of water.

4. Currently there is no insulation under the subfloor. Are they supposed to
put batts between the TJI joists? The house specs do say R38 for attic and
R19 for walls and floor.

5. There are 11 vents on foundation walls (8x16 size). Are they sufficient
for this 1350 SQFT crawlspace?

6. I am going to install the standard 3/4" solid wood strip floor in the
dining/kitchen room. Can flooring store do the installation with the wet
crawlspace? It seems that many suggest that the house must be dry before
floor installation.

Thank you very much.

Bob

1 That is alot of water, you should be concerned
2 Usualy to a sump or a lower area properly prepared drainfield.
3 2x4 for verticle support ?
4 Your contract calls for it so yes. Insulated ducts are also good
6 wood must aclimitise to your house. The instaler should know how
long.

If the drains were doing their job you should be dry. Maybe grading
will help, but where is the water table level . You need to hire on
site independant pro advise , an architect or engineer. Calling your
building inspector would be a start , but hire another pro also.

1. If the house is dried-in, the crawl space should be dry.
It should stay dry.
The surface of the ground (grade) should slope away from the house
in all directions.
Grade should be no higher at the wall of the house than the floor
of the crawl space.
Since folks make planting beds along the wall, the ground level
will rise over time.

2. Find out where the two pipe systems end.
You need to know that for maintenance.

3. 2x4s are not going to support much.
I should * think * masonry piers are needed.
Check the plans.
The poly should be lapped and fastened to the masonry at the edges.

4. Insulation placed when the crawl space is flooded is not going to do
well.

5..Building codes give * minimum * requirements for vent area.
Local climate, usual amount of soil moisture, and wind will
suggest what you need.
Check the Building Science Corporation web site for climate
specific suggestions.
6. Water in the crawl space is going to cause problems.

TB

Bob wrote:
Greetings,

[SNIP]

Bob, listen to what these other folk are saying. Listen VERY
CAREFULLY.

My mother just settled a year-and-a-half long nightmare involving a
"contractor" who built an addition 2' below grade behind her 30
year-old brick ranch, also on a "gently sloping" lot. It flooded from
Day 1 and got so bad even the roof caved in. I don't know what the
legal term is for an injunction to get a contractor to stop performing
substandard work, and I am by no means a professional (only someone who
bailed on average 25 Shop Vacs full of water each weekend of June 2003
from this nightmare).

The black tubes you refer to are called drain tile or French drains.
Not only should they be connected to "something," there should be a
trench on the property where you can actually see the connection
leading to the lowest, or to one of the lowest, places on the land.
This connection should, as the contractors say, "lead to daylight."
The reason drain tile needs to lead to daylight is because even under
the best circumstances, the cloth-wrapping around the drains will over
time become muddy and clogged. Drain tile, or French drains, are like
underground gutters. They have to have a clear and open place to
discharge their contents, or they will back up and you will have what
God love you, you already seem to have.

I could go on and on, Bob, but let me finish by saying, REAL loud,
R-U-N, D-O-N'-T W-A-L-K to your local Code Enforcement Officer (I'm
assuming you do have a building permit) and ask for his/her help or at
least a visit to the site. If your municipality does not have a
provision in its code for any kind of action to be taken by the
Officer, call another contractor IMMEDIATELY and offer to pay for
his/her appraisal of the source of the flooding. I guarantee you
without even seeing the property that you're right when you say the
land has not been sufficiently graded.

I don't often say this on this newsgroup, but I'll be keeping you in my
prayers.

Tioga, how could a roof cave in from a wet crawlspace ???

m Ransley wrote:
Tioga, how could a roof cave in from a wet crawlspace ???

Yeah, that was a blooper. In my mother's case, the "contractor" was so
bad he SHINGLED a roof with 1/4" pitch. The whole addition was
situated beneath a huge deck he also put on to the house. By no means
did I want to give the impression that lack of drainage led to the roof
collapse.

However--and this is a big however--once water gets into anything
porous or even into masonry, osmotic "movement" will introduce H20 to
surprisingly heights in gypsum board and joists. Take my word for
it...my $22K+ word for it, you do NOT want to address drainage/flooding
problems after building is done.

m Ransley wrote:
Tioga, how could a roof cave in from a wet crawlspace ???

Yeah, that was a blooper. In my mother's case, the "contractor" was so
bad he SHINGLED a roof with 1/4" pitch. The whole addition was
situated beneath a huge deck he also put on to the house. By no means
did I want to give the impression that lack of drainage led to the roof
collapse.

However--and this is a big however--once water gets into anything
porous or even into masonry, osmotic "movement" will introduce H20 to
surprisingly heights in gypsum board and joists. Take my word for
it...my $22K+ word for it, you do NOT want to address drainage/flooding
problems after building is done.

Hi,

Thanks for all the input.
I did talk to the agent of the builder. She said there is water because
grading has not been done and the downspouts haven't been connected to the
pipes at all. Maybe she was right. At the back side of the foundation wall
there is standing water near the walls after rain (the backyard is higher,
sloping down towards the front). She assured me after the construction is
complete there will be no water.

Earlier the builder specifically told me he would make a swale in the
backyard so the grading slows away in the back. The swale would go on to the
two sides and lead the water to the front then to the street. The agent
comfirmed he would do it later. I mentioned to her that the crawlspace needs
to be dry when wood floor is installed. She said flooring should be last
stage of construction by that time grading should have been done but she
wan't sure when exactly the grading would be done she would check with the
buider.

I still don't know where the drain pipes lead to. I walked around the house
but did not see the "outlet". Only a few pipes (no fabric covering) sticking
upward - I assume these will be connected to downspouts later. The agent
doesn't know either but she will check with builder.

All this doesn't sound as bad. Maybe it is just normal to have some water in
the crawlspace **DURING** the contruction???

Our city does have a building department. They automatically sends inspector
to any new construction. They go to the contruction site at different times
and every time they put an inspection report on the wall - at early stage
like footing, foundation, they just put it on the ground. I have seen a few
of them. Most are OK. There were a few small issues like "Plumbing Ok but
this PEX pipe need to be strapped" etc. The biggest issue I have seen on my
house was "gas pipe pressure 10psi. should be at least 15psi. call for
re-inspection when corrected". But I haven't seen a report on the water.

Thanks again.

Bob

"Bob" wrote in message
...


SNIP

Bob,
I caught this thread late. Relax. Breathe deeply.

It is normal to have problems during construction that do not happen later.
I had a foot of water in my basement before the yard was graded and the sump
pump added. It has been bone dry for 10 years now.

When the builder says the house is finished is the time to worry about these
items if they still exist and DEMAND that they be corrected before you
close. To discuss them now other than to say I am sure this won't still be a
problem when you are finished makes you a "nervous Nellie".

You will get a lot better quality if you take notes and wait for the people
to finish their jobs before you complain. The only exception to that rule
is where something is completely contrary to what you agreed to purchase or
is being done in an unworkmanlike manner.

Have a peaceful day.

Colbyt

Did you have a percolation test done?

You were right. It is probably too soon to complain but I was just bit
nervous when I saw that water down there.

I went to the site today after work and found two new inspection reports on
the wall.

On 12/9 electrical inspection report the city inspector scribbled a few
lines that I couldn't read - basically OK.

On 12/8 report, a different inspector was also concerned with the water, see
item 4:

1. block braced wall panels in garage
2. 6 foot or larger opening need double tra????s under heater @ each end. -
this has been called out consistently and needs to be fixed.
3. glass broken over front window needs to be finished
4. Pump out crawlspace - I may require a permanent sump on this house - call
before final inspection so I can come look at it again.
5. Strap stud wall where dryer duct severs it.
6 Anchor gas pipe main run in garage - when this is done I will sign the gas
tag - saw pressure @ 15 LBS.

Don't understand 1 and 2, though.

Wait and see what the builder will do.

Bob


"Colbyt" wrote in message
...

"Bob" wrote in message
...


SNIP

Bob,
I caught this thread late. Relax. Breathe deeply.

It is normal to have problems during construction that do not happen
later.
I had a foot of water in my basement before the yard was graded and the
sump
pump added. It has been bone dry for 10 years now.

When the builder says the house is finished is the time to worry about
these
items if they still exist and DEMAND that they be corrected before you
close. To discuss them now other than to say I am sure this won't still be
a
problem when you are finished makes you a "nervous Nellie".

You will get a lot better quality if you take notes and wait for the
people
to finish their jobs before you complain. The only exception to that rule
is where something is completely contrary to what you agreed to purchase
or
is being done in an unworkmanlike manner.

Have a peaceful day.

Colbyt

What is a percolation test?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Did you have a percolation test done?

Bob wrote:
What is a percolation test?

It's a test usually done for people who are going to install septic
systems, to see how close to the ground the water table lies.

I've read the entire thread (since the subject is so close to my
heart). I agree with the poster who said not to worry if the builder
hasn't announced or acted as if the floor is ready to go on, or the
drain work is complete. At one point in my mother's construction, when
proper drainage still was possible (the foundation just having been
poured), the first of interminable thunderstorms swept through, and the
"room" took on at least six inches of water. I didn't have to call the
builder to know there was no reason to worry about it--THEN.

But in my case the builder CONTINUED to act this way. If yours
conducts himself in such a way to suggest your extremely valid concerns
are negligeable, then I say, Heck, be the QUEEN of Nervous Nellies.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Bob wrote:
What is a percolation test?

It's a test usually done for people who are going to install septic
systems, to see how close to the ground the water table lies.

Right, and when I mentioned it, I wasn't sure if it made sense in your
situation. I've been watching the results of such a test on a friend's
property. He's trying to get the construction of his house underway, and the
perc test is driving EVERYONE nuts. The house is on a rise about 50' above
the rest of the property. The perc test (for the cesspool) is *not* going
well. The hole's filling up with water to a level which would be about
halfway up the basement walls, if the hole were right next to where the
house will stand. In two places down the 50' slope, two other holes are bone
dry.

At first, he thought the building inspector was being overly picky, but when
he considered the connection between the test results, and the misery of a
permanently wet basement, he changed his tune. So, the tests go on and he's
seriously considering hiring a geologist! Otherwise, he's afraid the house
will never be built.

I'm mentioning all this simply to point out that he movement of water
underground sometimes makes no sense at all.

"Bob" wrote in message
...

4. Pump out crawlspace - I may require a permanent sump on this house -
call
before final inspection so I can come look at it again.
Wait and see what the builder will do.

Bob

You are fine. If the inspector is on top of the problem, the problem will
be resolved with grading or with a sump pump. Either will solve your
problem. Most of us would prefer grading but sometimes sumps are required
in crawls. They usually last years and are not hard or expensive to replace.
You can even add a $15 alarm to let you you know if it ever fails.

I don't have a clue as to what items 1 or 2 were either. But you can bet
that the building inspector will make sure it is fixed.

Colbyt

"Colbyt" wrote in message
...

"Bob" wrote in message
...

4. Pump out crawlspace - I may require a permanent sump on this house -
call
before final inspection so I can come look at it again.
Wait and see what the builder will do.

Bob

You are fine. If the inspector is on top of the problem, the problem will
be resolved with grading or with a sump pump. Either will solve your
problem. Most of us would prefer grading but sometimes sumps are required
in crawls. They usually last years and are not hard or expensive to
replace.
You can even add a $15 alarm to let you you know if it ever fails.

I don't have a clue as to what items 1 or 2 were either. But you can bet
that the building inspector will make sure it is fixed.

Colbyt



For what it's worth, in the past couple of months, 3 people have told me
that there are now sump pumps whose innards are operated by water pressure,
not electricity. Sounds interesting.

1. May mean there is not a line of horizontal blocking between the
vertical studs.
Blocking in this case would be used to reduce the vertical "span" of
the studs.
2. May mean that two trimmers are needed to support each end of the
header.
The header is the horizontal member spanning the top of the opening.
Smaller openings need only one trimmer or cripple at each end of the
header.
Since it has been "called out consistently" the builder may be slow in
meeting minimum standards.
The comment about a "permanent sump pump" suggests there is a long term
condition.
That condition could become a problem if not addressed.

You appear to be doing this one on one with the builder.
It is not time to get upset.
It might be time to find someone to compare the contract documents to
the built conditions.

I'm a registerd architect working with a builder on documentation of
residential building failures.
We have lots of work.

TB

Thanks for your professional opinion. You were right - I just realized in
item 2 it's "header" not "heater". It makes sense now.

Bob

wrote in message
oups.com...
1. May mean there is not a line of horizontal blocking between the
vertical studs.
Blocking in this case would be used to reduce the vertical "span" of
the studs.
2. May mean that two trimmers are needed to support each end of the
header.
The header is the horizontal member spanning the top of the opening.
Smaller openings need only one trimmer or cripple at each end of the
header.
Since it has been "called out consistently" the builder may be slow in
meeting minimum standards.
The comment about a "permanent sump pump" suggests there is a long term
condition.
That condition could become a problem if not addressed.

You appear to be doing this one on one with the builder.
It is not time to get upset.
It might be time to find someone to compare the contract documents to
the built conditions.

I'm a registerd architect working with a builder on documentation of
residential building failures.
We have lots of work.

TB

And you guessed it right: the words I couldn't read are indeed "double
trimmers".

"Bob" wrote in message
...
Thanks for your professional opinion. You were right - I just realized in
item 2 it's "header" not "heater". It makes sense now.

Bob

wrote in message
oups.com...
1. May mean there is not a line of horizontal blocking between the
vertical studs.
Blocking in this case would be used to reduce the vertical "span" of
the studs.
2. May mean that two trimmers are needed to support each end of the
header.
The header is the horizontal member spanning the top of the opening.
Smaller openings need only one trimmer or cripple at each end of the
header.
Since it has been "called out consistently" the builder may be slow in
meeting minimum standards.
The comment about a "permanent sump pump" suggests there is a long term
condition.
That condition could become a problem if not addressed.

You appear to be doing this one on one with the builder.
It is not time to get upset.
It might be time to find someone to compare the contract documents to
the built conditions.

I'm a registerd architect working with a builder on documentation of
residential building failures.
We have lots of work.

TB