David L wrote:

I guess the first consideration would the price of the fuel. The gas
people say natural gas is cheaper and the oil people say oil is cheaper.
I'm locked in at $1.65 for the winter. I think I timed it right before
it skyrocketed in October. I think a 1 year cap price now is about
$2.10. The gas company told me gas is at $1.72/therm. How do I compare
the numbers to see which is cheaper? What's the equation to figure that
out? Is there any indication of which would be cheaper over time or are
there just too many variables and it's impossible to know which will be
cheaper 5 years from now?

I recently compared my natural gas bills (92-04) with someone's memory
of gasoline prices, and found that both had gone up the same 230%.

With gas, you pay whatever you utility charges you, thus it is one less
thing to have to worry about, the oil market place, capping, timing,
etc.

What has the price of gas done over your billing history for the stove?

David L wrote:

I've met with a couple of contractors already and I must say I'm still
not at all sure whether I want to go gas or oil.

First of all, gas, oil and electricity are more or less tied to each other, so
you aren't going to see massive long term differences in equivalent pricing.

Electricity is always going to be the most expensive for a number of reasons,
including higher generation and distribution costs, as well as lower over all
efficiency (yes, people like to point out that electricity is 100% efficient in
the home, but conveniently ignore the rather large line loss involved in pushing
it as much as 2000 miles across the country).

Oil has the problem of a limited number of refineries in the US as well as the
tie to suppliers like OPEC. Any time one goes down for unexpected maintenance,
prices spike. I suspect (but haven't checked) that oil furnaces also lead gas in
emissions.

Natural gas used to be significantly cheaper than either of the above, but that
difference has narrowed as more gas fired generators and industrial users have
come on line.

I would still go gas as it avoids the hassle of dealing with potential tank
removal problems, leaks, as well as the refinery issues.

Electricity is always going to be the most expensive for a number of
reasons,
including higher generation and distribution costs, as well as lower over
all
efficiency (yes, people like to point out that electricity is 100%
efficient in
the home, but conveniently ignore the rather large line loss involved in
pushing
it as much as 2000 miles across the country).

An "All Electric" house can be quite cost effective. You have to have
electric service anyway and when you have, say, gas heat you pay the top
seasonal rates for both gas and electric. With all electric you save
(directly and indirectly) the cost of bringing one more utility to your
property including stuff like reading the meters.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:21:49 -0400, someone wrote:

An "All Electric" house can be quite cost effective.

Not in a heating climate (exception: people who have access to
artificially low below market electricity). Fuel is burned to create
heat from which electricity is made (inefficient process). The
electricity is then transmitted a long distance (somewhat inefficient
process). At the house, it is converted back to heat (that part is
efficient).

If what you really need is the heat, is in inherently more efficient
to burn the fuel at your house.

-v.

In misc.consumers.house John Gilmer wrote:
An "All Electric" house can be quite cost effective. You have to have
electric service anyway and when you have, say, gas heat you pay the top
seasonal rates for both gas and electric. With all electric you save
(directly and indirectly) the cost of bringing one more utility to your
property including stuff like reading the meters.

If your thinking geothermal heat pump heating, then you might be correct.
If you're talking about resistive heating in cold weather and air-to-air
heat pump in mild weather, then you don't understand electric rates in
the northeast US.

An All Electric house is a joke for 98% of the US that live in areas
north of zone 8 as electricity is double the cost per BTU for most.
If heating season is expensive unless you have subsides Hydro, gas is
the cheapest.

If OP is looking for total replacement gas units are up to 94.5%
efficient, that is higher than oil units go.

m Ransley wrote:

An All Electric house is a joke for 98% of the US that live in areas
north of zone 8 as electricity is double the cost per BTU for most.
If heating season is expensive unless you have subsides Hydro, gas is
the cheapest.

If OP is looking for total replacement gas units are up to 94.5%
efficient, that is higher than oil units go.



I was under the impression that if you have an all electric house, the
electric company charges less per Kw hour than for houses that are not
all electric. I don't know since I don't use electricity for anything
other than those things that require electricity to run.
Unlike George Gobel, I don't have a 'gas' guitar.

"v" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:21:49 -0400, someone wrote:

An "All Electric" house can be quite cost effective.

Not in a heating climate (exception: people who have access to
artificially low below market electricity). Fuel is burned to create
heat from which electricity is made (inefficient process). The
electricity is then transmitted a long distance (somewhat inefficient
process). At the house, it is converted back to heat (that part is
efficient).

If what you really need is the heat, is in inherently more efficient
to burn the fuel at your house.

You HAVE heard of the "heat pump," havn't you?

With electricity the situation is that just about EVERYONE wants air
conditioning in the summer. Gas air conditioning is, at best, a PITA so
electric is the default. SO: whether you also have gas or oil makes NO
difference in your electric bill in the summer. That gas is cheaper in the
summer isn't particularly important as the meter charges are usually on the
order of fuel use for hot water and cooking.

In the winter, GAS/OIL are expensive but electric service (for "all
electric" homes) is CHEAP.



-v.

If your thinking geothermal heat pump heating, then you might be correct.
If you're talking about resistive heating in cold weather and air-to-air
heat pump in mild weather, then you don't understand electric rates in
the northeast US.

I understand very little about the NE United States.

But I do understand that even resistance heat can be cost effective under
certain circumstances. Resistance heat truly provides heat ONLY when and
where it is needed.

Frankly, I have usually lived where electric rates are reasonable (partly
because the utilities have build and properly maintained nukes plants.)
With the Canada hydro power, the NE should have reasonably priced electric.
If the NE had a few more nukes ....

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
An All Electric house is a joke for 98% of the US that live in areas
north of zone 8 as electricity is double the cost per BTU for most.

Two things:

1) Heat pumps (especially ground source heat pumps)

2) "Micro zoned" heating whereby you only heat the ROOMS (no the zones) of
the house in active use.

It would be silly to automatically shut out consideration of all electric
(with, maybe, a propane vestless heater for backup) living.

In places where it gets VERY cold, you can consider heatpump "background"
heat with baseboard electric for room by room comfort.

If heating season is expensive

Gilmer you know Zip about what 98% of the US pays for electricity. It is
more than twice the cost of gas per BTU...... Heat pumps? here it goes
to -20, so no heat pumps. Gas is cheaper, again.....

Electricity is so much more money that in fact the Chicago utility
company used to give free and instal free an electric furnace and
utility upgrade. Because they would have a rapid payback. And of course
, to the surprise of the recipient who was shocked to death over his
more than doubling of utility costs.

Figure this, gas is used to generate electricity here. If electricity
was competive Electric furnaces would be in competion with gas. I dare
you to find a residential electric furnace istaler in areas of the US
with .11 kwh- .13 kwh costs, that is all of the US that is not Hyrdo
subsidised

Now research your " thoughts" before you speak them. Hopefully you
will post further with facts , not misinformed misinformation.

In misc.consumers.house John Gilmer wrote:

Frankly, I have usually lived where electric rates are reasonable (partly
because the utilities have build and properly maintained nukes plants.)
With the Canada hydro power, the NE should have reasonably priced electric.
If the NE had a few more nukes ....

1) The Three Mile Island cleanup is one of reasons electric rates are so
high in the NE US. :-)

2) Good luck finding support for building more nukes in the densly populated
NE US with all of this talk of terrorism. There's a battle over
offshore wind farms on Cape Cod because of "environmental impact" and
they will "ruin the view" and you think we'd be smart enough to build
_nukes_ before oil reaches $150/barrel?

Resistance heat truly provides heat ONLY when and
where it is needed.

Ive always felt this way also.

It would seem to me that sense resistive electric heating can be so
easily controlled and "zoned"...... that maybe THAT could make up for
the inefficiencies in the cost of it. Yes?

In other words..... given that electric heat costs more.... can one
finesses it more by zone heating and other controls and save overall
over gas?

Talking ONLY resistive elect heat here.... not geothermal.

An All Electric house is a joke for 98% of the US that live in areas
north of zone 8 as electricity is double the cost per BTU for most.
If heating season is expensive unless you have subsides Hydro, gas is
the cheapest.

If OP is looking for total replacement gas units are up to 94.5%
efficient, that is higher than oil units go.

OK

Can one also cool and use AC using gas as the energy source?

Just curios

wrote:

Can one also cool and use AC using gas as the energy source?

Sort of, one can setup a refrigeration cycle, using heat to provide the
cooling, however you still electricity to move the air.

They used to have gas powered fridges for example, but they don't move
air.

wrote:
Resistance heat truly provides heat ONLY when and
where it is needed.


Ive always felt this way also.

It would seem to me that sense resistive electric heating can be so
easily controlled and "zoned"...... that maybe THAT could make up for
the inefficiencies in the cost of it. Yes?

In other words..... given that electric heat costs more.... can one
finesses it more by zone heating and other controls and save overall
over gas?

Talking ONLY resistive elect heat here.... not geothermal.

Of course you can zone ANY heating.
--

-Bill

Can one also cool and use AC using gas as the energy source?

Sort of, one can setup a refrigeration cycle, using heat to provide the
cooling, however you still electricity to move the air.

Well, "modern" heating systems also require electric power.

(At one time many gas furnaces had "milivolt" type gas valve which used the
small amount of power generated by the pilot light on a "thermpile" to power
the thermostat circuit. If the electric was not working, the
overtemperature sensor would cut the gas. Thus, you could get a little
heat if you had gas but no electricity. Today, most gas water still work
that way so if the power fails you can still fill your hot water bottle and
take a hot bath.)


They used to have gas powered fridges for example, but they don't move
air.

Up until the 70s the gas companies were still pushing gas central air
conditioning systems. But when the gas shortages hit, they gave up on
efforts to create new demand. Without the gas companies behind them, the
makers of smaller gas cooling appliance (& AC) gave up the fight.

The "absorption" type of gas (or any heat source) water chillers (for LARGE
commercial systems) are still being made but except for large industrial
installations that use process steam they just aren't cost effective.

"John Gilmer" wrote in
:




Can one also cool and use AC using gas as the energy source?

Sort of, one can setup a refrigeration cycle, using heat to provide
the cooling, however you still electricity to move the air.

Well, "modern" heating systems also require electric power.
FWIW, my original post specified gas or oil. That's all I'm
considering.

Any other comments on my original question?

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:21:26 -0400, someone wrote:


But I do understand that even resistance heat can be cost effective under
certain circumstances. Resistance heat truly provides heat ONLY when and
where it is needed.

So does my hot water baseboard system.

ANY heating system that uses a thermostat is supposed to only supply
heat WHEN needed - there is nothing inherently more accurate about a
thermostat controlling a resistance heater, in fact the ones mounted
on the heaters themselves have additional problems from being both
down on the floor, AND near to the heat source.

As to WHERE, there can indeed be some issues when trying to use a duct
system optimized for cooling, for heating purposes. However, either a
ducted or baseboard system actually designed for heating, also puts
the heat where it is needed.

As for cost to operate - do the calcs. There is NO WAY that
resistance heating can provide btus for less $, in any place with
normal market electrical rates. This has not changed in the 30 years
that I have been paying attention to the issue. It is inherent in the
"system".

In a primarily cooling climate like FL or maybe So. TX, etc., if one
is looking at capital costs, electric heaters can make sense as they
will seldom be used, so go for the cheapest up-front cost.

-v.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:15:30 -0400, someone wrote:


You HAVE heard of the "heat pump," havn't you?

Yes - and do *YOU* know what a heat pump does when it actually gets
COLD out instead of just cool??? It switches over to its electric
resistance backup! At the times of highest use, it becomes electric
resistance heat.

Heat pumps work fine in mild climates like VA or further south. In
New England they don't work out that well, too much time with the
backup on. (Some people have fuel burning backup - but then its not
"all electric" any more.) The cooling function of a heat pump (which
as we all know is just a reversible "air conditioner" is also not so
sought after in colder climates, where heating is the important load.
Thus, my observation is that heat pumps are relatively rare in the
North.

-v.

wrote in message
...
An All Electric house is a joke for 98% of the US that live in areas
north of zone 8 as electricity is double the cost per BTU for most.
If heating season is expensive unless you have subsides Hydro, gas is
the cheapest.

If OP is looking for total replacement gas units are up to 94.5%
efficient, that is higher than oil units go.

OK

Can one also cool and use AC using gas as the energy source?

Just curios

a few years ago when i last investigated, you could get an ac unit that had
a gas powered generator in it that produced the power to drive the normal ac
unit in the other half of the unit.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:52:18 -0500, someone wrote:

In other words..... given that electric heat costs more.... can one
finesses it more by zone heating and other controls and save overall
over gas?

No.

It takes a certain number of btus to heat a given area to a given
temperature. Electric resistance btus are more expensive than fuel
burning btus. The only way this seems to make sense, is similar to
the analagous artificial argument made for gas fireplaces vs. central
heat - someone compares heating the whole house, to only heating a
small portion of the house. Of course heating a smaller area is less
money, if all else is equal.

If you compared the same sized zone, it would still be cheaper to heat
it with a properly sized fuel burning appliance. This can become
ridiculous if one defines down the zone so much that there is no
furnace or boiler that small - and set up a hypothetical to make the
electric resistance come out on top - but in any "normal" application,
the fuel burning btus are cheaper.

BTW, there is another issue - personally, I find that forced air heat
is poor from a comfort standpoint - either blows hot or cold. That is
why I prefer baseboard. But baseboard doesn't have to be electric.
Comparing electric baseboard to fuel burning forced air is therefore
also not comparable - you should compare to electric forced air, which
has been done but is very rare by itself, but IS what happens when a
heat pump system has to switch to its electric backup.

-v.

In article ,
says...


If your thinking geothermal heat pump heating, then you might be correct.
If you're talking about resistive heating in cold weather and air-to-air
heat pump in mild weather, then you don't understand electric rates in
the northeast US.

I understand very little about the NE United States.

But I do understand that even resistance heat can be cost effective under
certain circumstances. Resistance heat truly provides heat ONLY when and
where it is needed.

Frankly, I have usually lived where electric rates are reasonable (partly
because the utilities have build and properly maintained nukes plants.)
With the Canada hydro power, the NE should have reasonably priced electric.
If the NE had a few more nukes ....


Here in Vermont where the tree huggers took over, we don't seem to
build anything we need. We do have a contract with Hydro Quebec. Lets
look at the electric bill I just paid today. Over in the corner of the
bill is a box labeled Current Month Average Cost. It comes to 0.133, or
13.3 cents per KWH

I can't afford electric heat with those rates...

Bill

a few years ago when i last investigated, you could get an ac unit that
had
a gas powered generator in it that produced the power to drive the normal
ac
unit in the other half of the unit.

I think I saw something about that in Popular Science (or variation
thereof.) IF you didn't count the cost of the generator set it was about
break even. But the gas engine would need the oil changes every few weeks
and a complete re-build ever other year.

It might make sense in you are "off the grid" but ...

"Bill" wrote in message
a.net...
Here in Vermont where the tree huggers took over, we don't seem to
build anything we need. We do have a contract with Hydro Quebec. Lets
look at the electric bill I just paid today. Over in the corner of the
bill is a box labeled Current Month Average Cost. It comes to 0.133, or
13.3 cents per KWH

I can't afford electric heat with those rates...

Bill

Some utlities charge less if you have electric heat. Nstar in Massachusetts
charges 13.358 cents per KWH for regular residential service, but 11.344
cents per KWH if you use electric heating (there are slight variations
depending upon what town/city you live in).

-al sung

(v) wrote:

Heat pumps work fine in mild climates like VA or further south. In
New England they don't work out that well, too much time with the
backup on.

Actually, there is a new version of heat pump that works quite well in very cold
climates. I was able to look at one installed in North Dakota last summer.

The traditional air vented pumps do not. The newer geothermal heatpumps use
multiple wells with a closed circulating coolant running 100-200 feet
underground. The temps there are around 55 degrees year round, which is optimum
for a heat pump in summer or winter.

Don't know how the capital (installation) costs compare though...

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
...



a few years ago when i last investigated, you could get an ac unit that
had
a gas powered generator in it that produced the power to drive the normal
ac
unit in the other half of the unit.

I think I saw something about that in Popular Science (or variation
thereof.) IF you didn't count the cost of the generator set it was about
break even. But the gas engine would need the oil changes every few
weeks
and a complete re-build ever other year.

It might make sense in you are "off the grid" but ...

http://www.polarpowerinc.com/product...s/cogenset.htm

The traditional air vented pumps do not. The newer geothermal heatpumps
use
multiple wells with a closed circulating coolant running 100-200 feet
underground. The temps there are around 55 degrees year round, which is
optimum
for a heat pump in summer or winter.

That's hardly "new." Just about every variant in ground source heat pumps
has been established for years.

Some 6 years ago I was very interested in ground source and other heat
pumps. (My HVAC guy basically said, "forget it" but it was fun looking.)

Anyway, one interesting design for VERY cold climates which was marketed in
Finland used what they called a "Cold Finger." The outside evaporator
presented a vertical "finger" with smooth flutes. In operation, it would
ice up (just like any heat pump in cold weather) but because of the shape
the ice would just flake off. No outside fan, no (or little) defrosting.
And it would look "cool" standing out in your back yard!

http://www.polarpowerinc.com/product...s/cogenset.htm



Thanks for the link. I "scanned" it and it was a fun read.

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
Gilmer you know Zip about what 98% of the US pays for electricity. It is
more than twice the cost of gas per BTU...... Heat pumps? here it goes
to -20, so no heat pumps. Gas is cheaper, again.....

Electricity is so much more money that in fact the Chicago utility
company used to give free and instal free an electric furnace and
utility upgrade. Because they would have a rapid payback. And of course
, to the surprise of the recipient who was shocked to death over his
more than doubling of utility costs.

Figure this, gas is used to generate electricity here. If electricity
was competive Electric furnaces would be in competion with gas. I dare
you to find a residential electric furnace istaler in areas of the US
with .11 kwh- .13 kwh costs, that is all of the US that is not Hyrdo
subsidised

Well here in Canada (Vancouver) we pay 6 cents/KWH which IS cheaper than gas
at $11/GJ (approx 10 therms). I zone heat with electricity and my heating
bill is $200/year vs $1200 for gas.

"Rick" wrote in message
news:Igehd.64363$9b.26051@edtnps84...


Well here in Canada (Vancouver) we pay 6 cents/KWH which IS cheaper than
gas
at $11/GJ (approx 10 therms). I zone heat with electricity and my heating
bill is $200/year vs $1200 for gas.

Can I run an extension cord to your house? I'll pay for your use as well as
mine. Converted to USD I'm paying triple that in CT. I heat with oil
($1.599) as the only gas available near my house is from eating beans.
Ed

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
om...

"Rick" wrote in message
news:Igehd.64363$9b.26051@edtnps84...


Well here in Canada (Vancouver) we pay 6 cents/KWH which IS cheaper than
gas
at $11/GJ (approx 10 therms). I zone heat with electricity and my heating
bill is $200/year vs $1200 for gas.

Can I run an extension cord to your house? I'll pay for your use as well
as
mine. Converted to USD I'm paying triple that in CT. I heat with oil
($1.599) as the only gas available near my house is from eating beans.
Ed


Buy a chainsaw and a good woodstove!

Thank goodness for cheap hydroelectric power

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:07:02 -0600, someone wrote:


Actually, there is a new version of heat pump that works quite well in very cold
climates. I was able to look at one installed in North Dakota last summer.

The traditional air vented pumps do not. The newer geothermal heatpumps use
multiple wells with a closed circulating coolant running 100-200 feet
underground.

They are nothing new, back when I was in college in the 70's, one of
our class projects wasw design of a geothermal heatpump system. I was
indeed talking about the "usual" air system. I doubt that geothermals
are even 1% of the actual in service installations, so I omitted them.
Their capital cost is huge compared to a "normal" system. They don't
work for every site either.

Glad you got your in.

-v.

06 kwh you are lucky with subsidised hydro , in the midwest U.S. I pay
1275 kwh and that is a normal US rate, many areas are much higher here
and going higher soon.

John Gilmer wrote:


If your thinking geothermal heat pump heating, then you might be correct.
If you're talking about resistive heating in cold weather and air-to-air
heat pump in mild weather, then you don't understand electric rates in
the northeast US.

I understand very little about the NE United States.

But I do understand that even resistance heat can be cost effective under
certain circumstances. Resistance heat truly provides heat ONLY when and
where it is needed.

In the cold climates in most of northern USA, heat is definately needed Air
heat pumps don't cut it. Their efficiency falls way down in cold weather and on
top of that frequent defrost cycles (where you are pumping heat from the house
to the great outdoors) are required. Where available gas is fairly efficient.
Unlike oil, gas furnace/boilers can reach efficiencies in excess of 95%. If
you invest in high efficency heating, that can make quite a difference over the
years in cold climates.



Frankly, I have usually lived where electric rates are reasonable (partly
because the utilities have build and properly maintained nukes plants.)
With the Canada hydro power, the NE should have reasonably priced electric.
If the NE had a few more nukes ....

Actually nuclear power has proven to be one of the most expensive methods of
generation, save for peaker plants. Even where electric choice options have
come into place in the northeast, incumbent utilties still get cash from
ratepayers ("stranded costs") to pay for their nuclear white elephants, whether
that customer buys juice from that utility or not. In the 1960's the president
of PECo (and many others) said that nuclear energy would be too cheap to
meter. Today that utility, which spent billions and bilions and many more
billions building a small fleet of nuke reactors, is always in a photo finish
for the highest rates in the nation. And they want to stick their own security
costs for their private property to the state government (national guard) on
top of it. As if the Guard doesn't have enough to do. A neighboring utility
which decided to go in another direction is much cheaper.

Now if you live in an area where the utility is subsidized/owned by the
government and they run nuclear plants, then you may think differently, but
that's only because Uncle Sam is paying the extra bills. Say thank you to the
taxpayers.