David L wrote:

I guess the first consideration would the price of the fuel. The gas
people say natural gas is cheaper and the oil people say oil is cheaper.
I'm locked in at $1.65 for the winter. I think I timed it right before
it skyrocketed in October. I think a 1 year cap price now is about
$2.10. The gas company told me gas is at $1.72/therm. How do I compare
the numbers to see which is cheaper? What's the equation to figure that
out? Is there any indication of which would be cheaper over time or are
there just too many variables and it's impossible to know which will be
cheaper 5 years from now?

I recently compared my natural gas bills (92-04) with someone's memory
of gasoline prices, and found that both had gone up the same 230%.

With gas, you pay whatever you utility charges you, thus it is one less
thing to have to worry about, the oil market place, capping, timing,
etc.

What has the price of gas done over your billing history for the stove?

David L wrote:

I've met with a couple of contractors already and I must say I'm still
not at all sure whether I want to go gas or oil.

First of all, gas, oil and electricity are more or less tied to each other, so
you aren't going to see massive long term differences in equivalent pricing.

Electricity is always going to be the most expensive for a number of reasons,
including higher generation and distribution costs, as well as lower over all
efficiency (yes, people like to point out that electricity is 100% efficient in
the home, but conveniently ignore the rather large line loss involved in pushing
it as much as 2000 miles across the country).

Oil has the problem of a limited number of refineries in the US as well as the
tie to suppliers like OPEC. Any time one goes down for unexpected maintenance,
prices spike. I suspect (but haven't checked) that oil furnaces also lead gas in
emissions.

Natural gas used to be significantly cheaper than either of the above, but that
difference has narrowed as more gas fired generators and industrial users have
come on line.

I would still go gas as it avoids the hassle of dealing with potential tank
removal problems, leaks, as well as the refinery issues.

Electricity is always going to be the most expensive for a number of
reasons,
including higher generation and distribution costs, as well as lower over
all
efficiency (yes, people like to point out that electricity is 100%
efficient in
the home, but conveniently ignore the rather large line loss involved in
pushing
it as much as 2000 miles across the country).

An "All Electric" house can be quite cost effective. You have to have
electric service anyway and when you have, say, gas heat you pay the top
seasonal rates for both gas and electric. With all electric you save
(directly and indirectly) the cost of bringing one more utility to your
property including stuff like reading the meters.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:21:49 -0400, someone wrote:

An "All Electric" house can be quite cost effective.

Not in a heating climate (exception: people who have access to
artificially low below market electricity). Fuel is burned to create
heat from which electricity is made (inefficient process). The
electricity is then transmitted a long distance (somewhat inefficient
process). At the house, it is converted back to heat (that part is
efficient).

If what you really need is the heat, is in inherently more efficient
to burn the fuel at your house.

-v.

"v" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:21:49 -0400, someone wrote:

An "All Electric" house can be quite cost effective.

Not in a heating climate (exception: people who have access to
artificially low below market electricity). Fuel is burned to create
heat from which electricity is made (inefficient process). The
electricity is then transmitted a long distance (somewhat inefficient
process). At the house, it is converted back to heat (that part is
efficient).

If what you really need is the heat, is in inherently more efficient
to burn the fuel at your house.

You HAVE heard of the "heat pump," havn't you?

With electricity the situation is that just about EVERYONE wants air
conditioning in the summer. Gas air conditioning is, at best, a PITA so
electric is the default. SO: whether you also have gas or oil makes NO
difference in your electric bill in the summer. That gas is cheaper in the
summer isn't particularly important as the meter charges are usually on the
order of fuel use for hot water and cooking.

In the winter, GAS/OIL are expensive but electric service (for "all
electric" homes) is CHEAP.



-v.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:15:30 -0400, someone wrote:


You HAVE heard of the "heat pump," havn't you?

Yes - and do *YOU* know what a heat pump does when it actually gets
COLD out instead of just cool??? It switches over to its electric
resistance backup! At the times of highest use, it becomes electric
resistance heat.

Heat pumps work fine in mild climates like VA or further south. In
New England they don't work out that well, too much time with the
backup on. (Some people have fuel burning backup - but then its not
"all electric" any more.) The cooling function of a heat pump (which
as we all know is just a reversible "air conditioner" is also not so
sought after in colder climates, where heating is the important load.
Thus, my observation is that heat pumps are relatively rare in the
North.

-v.

In misc.consumers.house John Gilmer wrote:
An "All Electric" house can be quite cost effective. You have to have
electric service anyway and when you have, say, gas heat you pay the top
seasonal rates for both gas and electric. With all electric you save
(directly and indirectly) the cost of bringing one more utility to your
property including stuff like reading the meters.

If your thinking geothermal heat pump heating, then you might be correct.
If you're talking about resistive heating in cold weather and air-to-air
heat pump in mild weather, then you don't understand electric rates in
the northeast US.

If your thinking geothermal heat pump heating, then you might be correct.
If you're talking about resistive heating in cold weather and air-to-air
heat pump in mild weather, then you don't understand electric rates in
the northeast US.

I understand very little about the NE United States.

But I do understand that even resistance heat can be cost effective under
certain circumstances. Resistance heat truly provides heat ONLY when and
where it is needed.

Frankly, I have usually lived where electric rates are reasonable (partly
because the utilities have build and properly maintained nukes plants.)
With the Canada hydro power, the NE should have reasonably priced electric.
If the NE had a few more nukes ....

In misc.consumers.house John Gilmer wrote:

Frankly, I have usually lived where electric rates are reasonable (partly
because the utilities have build and properly maintained nukes plants.)
With the Canada hydro power, the NE should have reasonably priced electric.
If the NE had a few more nukes ....

1) The Three Mile Island cleanup is one of reasons electric rates are so
high in the NE US. :-)

2) Good luck finding support for building more nukes in the densly populated
NE US with all of this talk of terrorism. There's a battle over
offshore wind farms on Cape Cod because of "environmental impact" and
they will "ruin the view" and you think we'd be smart enough to build
_nukes_ before oil reaches $150/barrel?

Resistance heat truly provides heat ONLY when and
where it is needed.

Ive always felt this way also.

It would seem to me that sense resistive electric heating can be so
easily controlled and "zoned"...... that maybe THAT could make up for
the inefficiencies in the cost of it. Yes?

In other words..... given that electric heat costs more.... can one
finesses it more by zone heating and other controls and save overall
over gas?

Talking ONLY resistive elect heat here.... not geothermal.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:21:26 -0400, someone wrote:


But I do understand that even resistance heat can be cost effective under
certain circumstances. Resistance heat truly provides heat ONLY when and
where it is needed.

So does my hot water baseboard system.

ANY heating system that uses a thermostat is supposed to only supply
heat WHEN needed - there is nothing inherently more accurate about a
thermostat controlling a resistance heater, in fact the ones mounted
on the heaters themselves have additional problems from being both
down on the floor, AND near to the heat source.

As to WHERE, there can indeed be some issues when trying to use a duct
system optimized for cooling, for heating purposes. However, either a
ducted or baseboard system actually designed for heating, also puts
the heat where it is needed.

As for cost to operate - do the calcs. There is NO WAY that
resistance heating can provide btus for less $, in any place with
normal market electrical rates. This has not changed in the 30 years
that I have been paying attention to the issue. It is inherent in the
"system".

In a primarily cooling climate like FL or maybe So. TX, etc., if one
is looking at capital costs, electric heaters can make sense as they
will seldom be used, so go for the cheapest up-front cost.

-v.

In article ,
says...


If your thinking geothermal heat pump heating, then you might be correct.
If you're talking about resistive heating in cold weather and air-to-air
heat pump in mild weather, then you don't understand electric rates in
the northeast US.

I understand very little about the NE United States.

But I do understand that even resistance heat can be cost effective under
certain circumstances. Resistance heat truly provides heat ONLY when and
where it is needed.

Frankly, I have usually lived where electric rates are reasonable (partly
because the utilities have build and properly maintained nukes plants.)
With the Canada hydro power, the NE should have reasonably priced electric.
If the NE had a few more nukes ....


Here in Vermont where the tree huggers took over, we don't seem to
build anything we need. We do have a contract with Hydro Quebec. Lets
look at the electric bill I just paid today. Over in the corner of the
bill is a box labeled Current Month Average Cost. It comes to 0.133, or
13.3 cents per KWH

I can't afford electric heat with those rates...

Bill

John Gilmer wrote:


If your thinking geothermal heat pump heating, then you might be correct.
If you're talking about resistive heating in cold weather and air-to-air
heat pump in mild weather, then you don't understand electric rates in
the northeast US.

I understand very little about the NE United States.

But I do understand that even resistance heat can be cost effective under
certain circumstances. Resistance heat truly provides heat ONLY when and
where it is needed.

In the cold climates in most of northern USA, heat is definately needed Air
heat pumps don't cut it. Their efficiency falls way down in cold weather and on
top of that frequent defrost cycles (where you are pumping heat from the house
to the great outdoors) are required. Where available gas is fairly efficient.
Unlike oil, gas furnace/boilers can reach efficiencies in excess of 95%. If
you invest in high efficency heating, that can make quite a difference over the
years in cold climates.



Frankly, I have usually lived where electric rates are reasonable (partly
because the utilities have build and properly maintained nukes plants.)
With the Canada hydro power, the NE should have reasonably priced electric.
If the NE had a few more nukes ....

Actually nuclear power has proven to be one of the most expensive methods of
generation, save for peaker plants. Even where electric choice options have
come into place in the northeast, incumbent utilties still get cash from
ratepayers ("stranded costs") to pay for their nuclear white elephants, whether
that customer buys juice from that utility or not. In the 1960's the president
of PECo (and many others) said that nuclear energy would be too cheap to
meter. Today that utility, which spent billions and bilions and many more
billions building a small fleet of nuke reactors, is always in a photo finish
for the highest rates in the nation. And they want to stick their own security
costs for their private property to the state government (national guard) on
top of it. As if the Guard doesn't have enough to do. A neighboring utility
which decided to go in another direction is much cheaper.

Now if you live in an area where the utility is subsidized/owned by the
government and they run nuclear plants, then you may think differently, but
that's only because Uncle Sam is paying the extra bills. Say thank you to the
taxpayers.

An All Electric house is a joke for 98% of the US that live in areas
north of zone 8 as electricity is double the cost per BTU for most.
If heating season is expensive unless you have subsides Hydro, gas is
the cheapest.

If OP is looking for total replacement gas units are up to 94.5%
efficient, that is higher than oil units go.

m Ransley wrote:

An All Electric house is a joke for 98% of the US that live in areas
north of zone 8 as electricity is double the cost per BTU for most.
If heating season is expensive unless you have subsides Hydro, gas is
the cheapest.

If OP is looking for total replacement gas units are up to 94.5%
efficient, that is higher than oil units go.



I was under the impression that if you have an all electric house, the
electric company charges less per Kw hour than for houses that are not
all electric. I don't know since I don't use electricity for anything
other than those things that require electricity to run.
Unlike George Gobel, I don't have a 'gas' guitar.

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
An All Electric house is a joke for 98% of the US that live in areas
north of zone 8 as electricity is double the cost per BTU for most.

Two things:

1) Heat pumps (especially ground source heat pumps)

2) "Micro zoned" heating whereby you only heat the ROOMS (no the zones) of
the house in active use.

It would be silly to automatically shut out consideration of all electric
(with, maybe, a propane vestless heater for backup) living.

In places where it gets VERY cold, you can consider heatpump "background"
heat with baseboard electric for room by room comfort.

If heating season is expensive

Gilmer you know Zip about what 98% of the US pays for electricity. It is
more than twice the cost of gas per BTU...... Heat pumps? here it goes
to -20, so no heat pumps. Gas is cheaper, again.....

Electricity is so much more money that in fact the Chicago utility
company used to give free and instal free an electric furnace and
utility upgrade. Because they would have a rapid payback. And of course
, to the surprise of the recipient who was shocked to death over his
more than doubling of utility costs.

Figure this, gas is used to generate electricity here. If electricity
was competive Electric furnaces would be in competion with gas. I dare
you to find a residential electric furnace istaler in areas of the US
with .11 kwh- .13 kwh costs, that is all of the US that is not Hyrdo
subsidised

Now research your " thoughts" before you speak them. Hopefully you
will post further with facts , not misinformed misinformation.

An All Electric house is a joke for 98% of the US that live in areas
north of zone 8 as electricity is double the cost per BTU for most.
If heating season is expensive unless you have subsides Hydro, gas is
the cheapest.

If OP is looking for total replacement gas units are up to 94.5%
efficient, that is higher than oil units go.

OK

Can one also cool and use AC using gas as the energy source?

Just curios

wrote:

Can one also cool and use AC using gas as the energy source?

Sort of, one can setup a refrigeration cycle, using heat to provide the
cooling, however you still electricity to move the air.

They used to have gas powered fridges for example, but they don't move
air.

wrote in message
...
An All Electric house is a joke for 98% of the US that live in areas
north of zone 8 as electricity is double the cost per BTU for most.
If heating season is expensive unless you have subsides Hydro, gas is
the cheapest.

If OP is looking for total replacement gas units are up to 94.5%
efficient, that is higher than oil units go.

OK

Can one also cool and use AC using gas as the energy source?

Just curios

a few years ago when i last investigated, you could get an ac unit that had
a gas powered generator in it that produced the power to drive the normal ac
unit in the other half of the unit.