Lumber has skyrocketed over the last two years, most common lumber
doubling, or tripling in price. Among the reasons? Trump's tariffs on
Canada substantially reduced Canadian imports, while raising prices.
I hope the Trumpets are happy.

On 19/04/2021 14:04, trader_4 wrote:
Lumber has skyrocketed over the last two years, most common lumber
doubling, or tripling in price. Among the reasons? Trump's tariffs on
Canada substantially reduced Canadian imports, while raising prices.
I hope the Trumpets are happy.

Yup, here's more info:

'Fed study finds Trump tariffs backfired'

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/fe...red-2019-12-27

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:24:51 +0100, Bod wrote:

On 19/04/2021 14:04, trader_4 wrote:
Lumber has skyrocketed over the last two years, most common lumber
doubling, or tripling in price. Among the reasons? Trump's tariffs on
Canada substantially reduced Canadian imports, while raising prices.
I hope the Trumpets are happy.

Yup, here's more info:

'Fed study finds Trump tariffs backfired'

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/fe...red-2019-12-27

That is the flaw in most "Buy American" schemes. We simply can't
compete with 3d world countries on price. They also don't give a ****
about spotted owls or old growth trees. Cut them down, saw them up and
send them to the US.
The ironic thing is that since China is not buying our logs our timber
industry is suffering. We have a lumber shortage but logs are a glut
on the market. The only logical explanation is we do not have the saw
mill capacity to turn logs into lumber.
That is only going to get worse with Biden's $15 minimum wage.
We are rapidly pricing the US out of the job market.
Then we ask why a ship getting stuck in a canal half way around the
world causes shortages here.

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:24:51 +0100, Bod
wrote:

On 19/04/2021 14:04, trader_4 wrote:
Lumber has skyrocketed over the last two years, most common lumber
doubling, or tripling in price. Among the reasons? Trump's tariffs on
Canada substantially reduced Canadian imports, while raising prices.
I hope the Trumpets are happy.

Yup, here's more info:

'Fed study finds Trump tariffs backfired'

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/fe...red-2019-12-27

The use of "backfire" in this headline makes the implicit assumption
that the goal of the tariffs was to make life better for a large number
of Americans.

People of all types, reporters, columnists, pundits, politicians,
"average Americans", and foreigners make this mistake all the time. The
people I just listed here still don't recognize that trump is a
sociopath or they don't understand all that that means. They think it
means someone who spits on the sidewalk or is rude. They don't imagine
someone who conjures up imaginative ways to hurt as many people as
possible.

In fact, the goal of the tariffs was to make life worse for all but
those selling lumber from USA sources, and it did that. The tariffs
were a success.

But don't imagine that the main goal was increased profit for American
lumber suppliers. That was a side benefit**. The main goal was to make
housing unaffordable for poor people, for the lower middle class, and to
force the middle class into smaller houses.

Do you find it hard to believe that this would be the *main* goal? You
probably do, because *you* are not a sociopath. Even when you're
selfish, your goal is to make life good for yourself, not to make life
bad for other people. Well, maybe you want to hurt selected minority
groups (not just race or religion. Maybe you don't like horse-owners or
alfalfa-growers or left-handed people, and maybe you know you don't like
them and want to hurt them, but still you can't imagine wanting to hurt
just about everyone. That's because you're not a sociopath. It might
be like trying to imagine homosexual desires when one is not homosexual.
It just doesn't seem real, or even possible. And afaict, there are so
few true sociopaths that it is even harder to imagine what one would be
like, or to recognize one when he sees one.

(Of course mass murderers are sociopathic, but people put them in a
separate category from people like trump.)

Trump did not limit his imagination to hurting Americans. For example,
attacking NATO and trying to weaken NATO was his method of making the US
but especially western Europe subject to Russian aggression. And
trying to extort Volodymyr Zelensky into claiming the Ukraine was
conducting an investigation into Biden was meant to help trump get
re-elected, but it's bigger goal was to delay arms to Ukraine, arms that
had been allocated and authorized by the Congress, in order to help
Russia seize greater portions of Ukraine.

So onlookers will never understand what trump does or why he does it
until they realize that his major goal is not helping himself but
hurting others.



**Maybe increased profits for the small number of domestic lumber
producers (compared to the number of people who want to live in houses)
was a side benefit of tariffs, or maybe it wasn't. If trump could have
hurt all the house buyers and the Canadian lumber producers AND the USA
lumber producers too that might have been preferable, but the way
economic systems work is that when you hurt one group, you tend to make
things better for another. Sociopaths don't like this latter part, but
they learn to live with it.

writes:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:24:51 +0100, Bod wrote:

On 19/04/2021 14:04, trader_4 wrote:
Lumber has skyrocketed over the last two years, most common lumber
doubling, or tripling in price. Among the reasons? Trump's tariffs on
Canada substantially reduced Canadian imports, while raising prices.
I hope the Trumpets are happy.

Yup, here's more info:

'Fed study finds Trump tariffs backfired'

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/fe...red-2019-12-27


The ironic thing is that since China is not buying our logs our timber
industry is suffering.

Cite?

We have a lumber shortage but logs are a glut
on the market.

As I understand it, the primary raw lumber exports
to China are hardwoods (Walnut, Cherry, et alia) and
China placed retaliatory tariffs on them, thanks to
your buddy trump.

Most domestic softwood (construction lumber) imports come from Canada.

people .. still don't recognize that trump is a
sociopath or they don't understand all that that means.
They don't imagine someone who conjures up imaginative ways
to hurt as many people as possible.

So onlookers will never understand what trump does or why he does it
until they realize that his major goal is not helping himself but
hurting others.



..... still talking about The Loser President, are we Dr. Micky ?
... geeesh. already.

The softwood lumber disagreements with Canada go back decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada...mber_dispu te


sociopath :
Someone whose social behavior is extremely abnormal.
Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires,
without concern for the effects of their behavior on others.
dictionary . com
narcissist :
a person who is overly self-involved, and often vain and selfish.
Psychoanalysis. a person who suffers from narcissism,
deriving erotic gratification from admiration of their own
physical or mental attributes.
dictionary . com

John T.

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 18:14:55 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:24:51 +0100, Bod wrote:

On 19/04/2021 14:04, trader_4 wrote:
Lumber has skyrocketed over the last two years, most common lumber
doubling, or tripling in price. Among the reasons? Trump's tariffs on
Canada substantially reduced Canadian imports, while raising prices.
I hope the Trumpets are happy.

Yup, here's more info:

'Fed study finds Trump tariffs backfired'

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/fe...red-2019-12-27


The ironic thing is that since China is not buying our logs our timber
industry is suffering.

Cite?

You will like this one, they blame it on Trump.

https://qz.com/1934494/us-timber-ind...-and-covid-19/
We have a lumber shortage but logs are a glut
on the market.

As I understand it, the primary raw lumber exports
to China are hardwoods (Walnut, Cherry, et alia) and
China placed retaliatory tariffs on them, thanks to
your buddy trump.

Most domestic softwood (construction lumber) imports come from Canada.

We still grow a lot of softwoods here. Have you ever been out of town
to the forests just east and northeast of you?
They have so much softwoods they cut it, pile it up and burn it. When
we were in South Dakota the logging roads were lined with "slash
piles" of ponderosa pines and other conifers that they were going to
burn as soon as it snowed.

We just can't mill it up and sell it much cheaper than what it costs
now.

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 1:58:46 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:24:51 +0100, Bod
wrote:

On 19/04/2021 14:04, trader_4 wrote:
Lumber has skyrocketed over the last two years, most common lumber
doubling, or tripling in price. Among the reasons? Trump's tariffs on
Canada substantially reduced Canadian imports, while raising prices.
I hope the Trumpets are happy.

Yup, here's more info:

'Fed study finds Trump tariffs backfired'

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/fe...red-2019-12-27
The use of "backfire" in this headline makes the implicit assumption
that the goal of the tariffs was to make life better for a large number
of Americans.

People of all types, reporters, columnists, pundits, politicians,
"average Americans", and foreigners make this mistake all the time. The
people I just listed here still don't recognize that trump is a
sociopath or they don't understand all that that means. They think it
means someone who spits on the sidewalk or is rude. They don't imagine
someone who conjures up imaginative ways to hurt as many people as
possible.

In fact, the goal of the tariffs was to make life worse for all but
those selling lumber from USA sources, and it did that. The tariffs
were a success.

But don't imagine that the main goal was increased profit for American
lumber suppliers. That was a side benefit**. The main goal was to make
housing unaffordable for poor people, for the lower middle class, and to
force the middle class into smaller houses.

As much as I despise Trump, even I think the above is nuts. Trump himself
doesn't benefit by screwing the middle class, forcing them into smaller
houses? WTF?




Do you find it hard to believe that this would be the *main* goal?

Yes, because it makes no sense. I think Trump did his tariffs because he
figured he was going to help all American workers, help our economy,
that we've had unfair competition from foreign countries for too long.
The problem is he directed that everywhere, not where it belonged, eg China.
And instead of having a coordinated strategy with our allies against China,
Trump attacked them, levied tariffs on them too. He's stupid, he doesn't
understand economics or trade, but there is no evidence he did it to screw
American workers. And mostly he didn't screw them, we reached record
low unemployment, real income increased substantially and taxes were
lowered. Some in certain industries hurt by tariffs did get screwed.

"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:24:51 +0100, Bod
wrote:

On 19/04/2021 14:04, trader_4 wrote:
Lumber has skyrocketed over the last two years, most common lumber
doubling, or tripling in price. Among the reasons? Trump's tariffs on
Canada substantially reduced Canadian imports, while raising prices.
I hope the Trumpets are happy.

Yup, here's more info:

'Fed study finds Trump tariffs backfired'

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/fe...red-2019-12-27

The use of "backfire" in this headline makes the implicit assumption
that the goal of the tariffs was to make life better for a large number
of Americans.

People of all types, reporters, columnists, pundits, politicians,
"average Americans", and foreigners make this mistake all the time. The
people I just listed here still don't recognize that trump is a
sociopath or they don't understand all that that means. They think it
means someone who spits on the sidewalk or is rude. They don't imagine
someone who conjures up imaginative ways to hurt as many people as
possible.

In fact, the goal of the tariffs was to make life worse for all but
those selling lumber from USA sources, and it did that. The tariffs
were a success.

But don't imagine that the main goal was increased profit for American
lumber suppliers. That was a side benefit**. The main goal was to make
housing unaffordable for poor people, for the lower middle class, and to
force the middle class into smaller houses.

Do you find it hard to believe that this would be the *main* goal? You
probably do, because *you* are not a sociopath. Even when you're
selfish, your goal is to make life good for yourself, not to make life
bad for other people. Well, maybe you want to hurt selected minority
groups (not just race or religion. Maybe you don't like horse-owners or
alfalfa-growers or left-handed people, and maybe you know you don't like
them and want to hurt them, but still you can't imagine wanting to hurt
just about everyone. That's because you're not a sociopath. It might
be like trying to imagine homosexual desires when one is not homosexual.
It just doesn't seem real, or even possible. And afaict, there are so
few true sociopaths that it is even harder to imagine what one would be
like, or to recognize one when he sees one.

(Of course mass murderers are sociopathic, but people put them in a
separate category from people like trump.)

Trump did not limit his imagination to hurting Americans. For example,
attacking NATO and trying to weaken NATO was his method of making the US
but especially western Europe subject to Russian aggression. And
trying to extort Volodymyr Zelensky into claiming the Ukraine was
conducting an investigation into Biden was meant to help trump get
re-elected, but it's bigger goal was to delay arms to Ukraine, arms that
had been allocated and authorized by the Congress, in order to help
Russia seize greater portions of Ukraine.

So onlookers will never understand what trump does or why he does it
until they realize that his major goal is not helping himself but
hurting others.

That's mad. He really did want to support american timber producers.

He just ****ed up trying to do that.

**Maybe increased profits for the small number of domestic lumber
producers (compared to the number of people who want to live in houses)
was a side benefit of tariffs, or maybe it wasn't. If trump could have
hurt all the house buyers and the Canadian lumber producers AND the USA
lumber producers too that might have been preferable, but the way
economic systems work is that when you hurt one group, you tend to make
things better for another. Sociopaths don't like this latter part, but
they learn to live with it.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 18:14:55 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:24:51 +0100, Bod wrote:

On 19/04/2021 14:04, trader_4 wrote:
Lumber has skyrocketed over the last two years, most common lumber
doubling, or tripling in price. Among the reasons? Trump's tariffs
on
Canada substantially reduced Canadian imports, while raising prices.
I hope the Trumpets are happy.

Yup, here's more info:

'Fed study finds Trump tariffs backfired'

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/fe...red-2019-12-27


The ironic thing is that since China is not buying our logs our timber
industry is suffering.

Cite?

You will like this one, they blame it on Trump.

https://qz.com/1934494/us-timber-ind...-and-covid-19/
We have a lumber shortage but logs are a glut
on the market.

As I understand it, the primary raw lumber exports
to China are hardwoods (Walnut, Cherry, et alia) and
China placed retaliatory tariffs on them, thanks to
your buddy trump.

Most domestic softwood (construction lumber) imports come from Canada.

We still grow a lot of softwoods here. Have you ever been out of town
to the forests just east and northeast of you?

They have so much softwoods they cut it, pile it up and burn it.

Why the **** would they pay anyone to do that ?

When we were in South Dakota the logging roads were lined
with "slash piles" of ponderosa pines and other conifers that
they were going to burn as soon as it snowed.

We just can't mill it up and sell it much cheaper than what it costs now.

Still no point in cutting it and burning it.

In article ,
says...
mill capacity to turn logs into lumber.
That is only going to get worse with Biden's $15 minimum wage.
We are rapidly pricing the US out of the job market.
Then we ask why a ship getting stuck in a canal half way around the
world causes shortages here.




Some of the jobs are pricing theirselfs out of business. Saw where a
couple of grocery stores in California closed up because the government
put in a $ 4 an hour hazard work pay.

The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will be
mostly be replaced by robots.

I remember working for a grocery store as a teen. We stocked the
shelves, but bagged the groceries and even rolled them to the car and
put them in the car. Now the check out person only has to slid the
items over the computer interface and bag the groceries.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
mill capacity to turn logs into lumber.
That is only going to get worse with Biden's $15 minimum wage.
We are rapidly pricing the US out of the job market.
Then we ask why a ship getting stuck in a canal half way around the
world causes shortages here.




Some of the jobs are pricing theirselfs out of business. Saw where a
couple of grocery stores in California closed up because the government
put in a $ 4 an hour hazard work pay.

The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will be
mostly be replaced by robots.

I remember working for a grocery store as a teen. We stocked the
shelves, but bagged the groceries and even rolled them to the car and
put them in the car. Now the check out person only has to slid the
items over the computer interface and bag the groceries.

Aldi doesn't even bag groceries, you do that yourself.

And plenty don't have a checkout person anymore, you do that yourself too.

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:58:53 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the obnoxious trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Sqwertz to Rodent Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:44:57 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



That's mad. He really did want to support american timber producers.

Who or what could be madder than you, you abnormal trolling senile pest?

He just ****ed up trying to do that.

Who or what could be as ****ed up as you are, you disgusting sociopath?

--
Keema Nam addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You are now exposed as a liar, as well as an ignorant troll."
"MID: .com"

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:30:31 -0400, posted for all of us
to digest...


people .. still don't recognize that trump is a
sociopath or they don't understand all that that means.
They don't imagine someone who conjures up imaginative ways
to hurt as many people as possible.

So onlookers will never understand what trump does or why he does it
until they realize that his major goal is not helping himself but
hurting others.



.... still talking about The Loser President, are we Dr. Micky ?
... geeesh. already.

The softwood lumber disagreements with Canada go back decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada...mber_dispu te


sociopath :
Someone whose social behavior is extremely abnormal.
Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires,
without concern for the effects of their behavior on others.
dictionary . com
narcissist :
a person who is overly self-involved, and often vain and selfish.
Psychoanalysis. a person who suffers from narcissism,
deriving erotic gratification from admiration of their own
physical or mental attributes.
dictionary . com

John T.

What about a Psychopath ?

--
Tekkie

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:30:31 -0400, wrote:


people .. still don't recognize that trump is a
sociopath or they don't understand all that that means.
They don't imagine someone who conjures up imaginative ways
to hurt as many people as possible.

So onlookers will never understand what trump does or why he does it
until they realize that his major goal is not helping himself but
hurting others.



.... still talking about The Loser President, are we Dr. Micky ?
... geeesh. already.

The softwood lumber disagreements with Canada go back decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada...mber_dispu te


It is interesting that on Mar 4 the Biden Commerce department was
still pursuing the anti dumping review started by Trump. (AR3)

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 07:19:12 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

wrote:
Most domestic softwood (construction lumber) imports come from Canada.

We still grow a lot of softwoods here. Have you ever been out of town
to the forests just east and northeast of you?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

"most domestic softwood _imports_ come from Canada".

I didn't say

"all softwood is imported from canada".

Do you see the difference?

Given that the USA doesn't produce 100% of it's softwood lumber,
it must need import. Since the imports are down (and the
tariffs are higher), supply and demand drives the price.

And yes, I've visited every corner of my state. The vast
majority of which was clear-cut over the last 150 years. You
easterners have no clue about California, it appears.

Note that outside of the sierra, the vast majority of lumber
is not suitable for lumber (e.g. various live oak species and
other hardwoods).

Ralph Mowery writes:
In article ,
says...
mill capacity to turn logs into lumber.
That is only going to get worse with Biden's $15 minimum wage.
We are rapidly pricing the US out of the job market.
Then we ask why a ship getting stuck in a canal half way around the
world causes shortages here.




Some of the jobs are pricing theirselfs out of business. Saw where a
couple of grocery stores in California closed up because the government
put in a $ 4 an hour hazard work pay.

There are thousands of grocery stories in california. Two of them,
owned by the same conservative republican company closed due to the
temporary covid hazard pay requirement.

That's not even a drop in the bucket.


The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will be
mostly be replaced by robots.

Your spelling and grammar skills are on par with your logical thinking
skills. The USA is far different now than it was fifty years ago, including
a much larger population and a wider gap between the haves and the
have-nots. And all those republican businesses moving
their labor off-shore over the past four decades.

"Scott Lurndal" wrote in message
...
Ralph Mowery writes:
In article ,
says...
mill capacity to turn logs into lumber.
That is only going to get worse with Biden's $15 minimum wage.
We are rapidly pricing the US out of the job market.
Then we ask why a ship getting stuck in a canal half way around the
world causes shortages here.




Some of the jobs are pricing theirselfs out of business. Saw where a
couple of grocery stores in California closed up because the government
put in a $ 4 an hour hazard work pay.

There are thousands of grocery stories in california. Two of them,
owned by the same conservative republican company closed due to the
temporary covid hazard pay requirement.

That's not even a drop in the bucket.


The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will be
mostly be replaced by robots.

Your spelling and grammar skills are on par with your logical thinking
skills. The USA is far different now than it was fifty years ago,
including
a much larger population and a wider gap between the haves and the
have-nots.

That last is very arguable even with the stinking rich like Gates etc.

And all those republican businesses moving
their labor off-shore over the past four decades.

Even the non republican ones like Job's.

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 08:48:37 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the useless trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Xeno to senile Rodent:
"You're a sad old man Rod, truly sad."
MID:

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 13:10:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 1:58:46 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:24:51 +0100, Bod
wrote:

On 19/04/2021 14:04, trader_4 wrote:
Lumber has skyrocketed over the last two years, most common lumber
doubling, or tripling in price. Among the reasons? Trump's tariffs on
Canada substantially reduced Canadian imports, while raising prices.
I hope the Trumpets are happy.

Yup, here's more info:

'Fed study finds Trump tariffs backfired'

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/fe...red-2019-12-27
The use of "backfire" in this headline makes the implicit assumption
that the goal of the tariffs was to make life better for a large number
of Americans.

People of all types, reporters, columnists, pundits, politicians,
"average Americans", and foreigners make this mistake all the time. The
people I just listed here still don't recognize that trump is a
sociopath or they don't understand all that that means. They think it
means someone who spits on the sidewalk or is rude. They don't imagine
someone who conjures up imaginative ways to hurt as many people as
possible.

In fact, the goal of the tariffs was to make life worse for all but
those selling lumber from USA sources, and it did that. The tariffs
were a success.

But don't imagine that the main goal was increased profit for American
lumber suppliers. That was a side benefit**. The main goal was to make
housing unaffordable for poor people, for the lower middle class, and to
force the middle class into smaller houses.

As much as I despise Trump, even I think the above is nuts. Trump himself
doesn't benefit by screwing the middle class, forcing them into smaller
houses? WTF?

Trump was under the mistaken belief that if we made imported goods
more expensive we would start making things here and Americans would
happily pay more to buy American but if that was the case, we wouldn't
have sent our manufacturing off to the 3d world in the first place.

IBM figured that out during the Clinton administration and went from
"6 Sigma" to "Market Driven Quality". Basically "Think like Walmart"
(Sam Walton's business model was even part of the pitch)
The cheap *******s don't want real quality, they just want a cheap
price.
They laid off half the company in the next 5 years.



Do you find it hard to believe that this would be the *main* goal?

Yes, because it makes no sense. I think Trump did his tariffs because he
figured he was going to help all American workers, help our economy,
that we've had unfair competition from foreign countries for too long.
The problem is he directed that everywhere, not where it belonged, eg China.
And instead of having a coordinated strategy with our allies against China,
Trump attacked them, levied tariffs on them too. He's stupid, he doesn't
understand economics or trade, but there is no evidence he did it to screw
American workers. And mostly he didn't screw them, we reached record
low unemployment, real income increased substantially and taxes were
lowered. Some in certain industries hurt by tariffs did get screwed.

I hadn't really been paying attention but it looks like Biden is not
happy about Canada dumping government subsidized lumber here either. I
wondered why he hasn't said **** about dropping the tariffs.
OTOH a large part of his caucus is against logging anyway so they
don't mind this. I guess they think we will build houses out of
recycled milk jugs or something.

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:58:53 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 18:14:55 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:24:51 +0100, Bod wrote:

On 19/04/2021 14:04, trader_4 wrote:
Lumber has skyrocketed over the last two years, most common lumber
doubling, or tripling in price. Among the reasons? Trump's tariffs
on
Canada substantially reduced Canadian imports, while raising prices.
I hope the Trumpets are happy.

Yup, here's more info:

'Fed study finds Trump tariffs backfired'

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/fe...red-2019-12-27


The ironic thing is that since China is not buying our logs our timber
industry is suffering.

Cite?

You will like this one, they blame it on Trump.

https://qz.com/1934494/us-timber-ind...-and-covid-19/
We have a lumber shortage but logs are a glut
on the market.

As I understand it, the primary raw lumber exports
to China are hardwoods (Walnut, Cherry, et alia) and
China placed retaliatory tariffs on them, thanks to
your buddy trump.

Most domestic softwood (construction lumber) imports come from Canada.

We still grow a lot of softwoods here. Have you ever been out of town
to the forests just east and northeast of you?

They have so much softwoods they cut it, pile it up and burn it.

Why the **** would they pay anyone to do that ?

When we were in South Dakota the logging roads were lined
with "slash piles" of ponderosa pines and other conifers that
they were going to burn as soon as it snowed.

We just can't mill it up and sell it much cheaper than what it costs now.

Still no point in cutting it and burning it.

They do it to prevent the devastating kinds of fires they have in
California where cutting trees is a sin. The folks in the Dakotas were
culling out the excess trees to reduce the fuel load, then they burned
it in the winter when the threat of wild fire was nil.
They were trying to prevent this

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/dakota/Jasp...rs%20later.jpg

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 17:01:13 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
mill capacity to turn logs into lumber.
That is only going to get worse with Biden's $15 minimum wage.
We are rapidly pricing the US out of the job market.
Then we ask why a ship getting stuck in a canal half way around the
world causes shortages here.




Some of the jobs are pricing theirselfs out of business. Saw where a
couple of grocery stores in California closed up because the government
put in a $ 4 an hour hazard work pay.

The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will be
mostly be replaced by robots.

I remember working for a grocery store as a teen. We stocked the
shelves, but bagged the groceries and even rolled them to the car and
put them in the car. Now the check out person only has to slid the
items over the computer interface and bag the groceries.


They are doing a lot more self checkout here with one employee
watching 6-8 scanner stations. People are checking themselves out,
bagging their stuff and paying without involving anyone unless
something goes wrong or they need to show an ID.

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 22:09:54 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:


wrote:
Most domestic softwood (construction lumber) imports come from Canada.

We still grow a lot of softwoods here. Have you ever been out of town
to the forests just east and northeast of you?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

"most domestic softwood _imports_ come from Canada".

I didn't say

"all softwood is imported from canada".

Do you see the difference?

Given that the USA doesn't produce 100% of it's softwood lumber,
it must need import. Since the imports are down (and the
tariffs are higher), supply and demand drives the price.

It is not really a shortage of wood, it is the processing that we
don't do and I doubt we will expand that capability as long as it is
cheaper to import.


And yes, I've visited every corner of my state. The vast
majority of which was clear-cut over the last 150 years. You
easterners have no clue about California, it appears.

You know there are a bunch of other states out there. There are also
forests scattered throughout Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Idaho,
Montana, Western Wyoming and South Dakota. We have hiked in the woods
in all of them. There is no shortage of wood.


Note that outside of the sierra, the vast majority of lumber

is not suitable for lumber (e.g. various live oak species and
other hardwoods).

Who said anything about live oaks? Even in Florida where live oaks are
weeds, we grow a ****load of Southern Yellow Pine that makes excellent
lumber. The same is true all over the South.

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 22:13:48 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Ralph Mowery writes:
In article ,
says...
mill capacity to turn logs into lumber.
That is only going to get worse with Biden's $15 minimum wage.
We are rapidly pricing the US out of the job market.
Then we ask why a ship getting stuck in a canal half way around the
world causes shortages here.




Some of the jobs are pricing theirselfs out of business. Saw where a
couple of grocery stores in California closed up because the government
put in a $ 4 an hour hazard work pay.

There are thousands of grocery stories in california. Two of them,
owned by the same conservative republican company closed due to the
temporary covid hazard pay requirement.

That's not even a drop in the bucket.


The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will be
mostly be replaced by robots.

Your spelling and grammar skills are on par with your logical thinking
skills. The USA is far different now than it was fifty years ago, including
a much larger population and a wider gap between the haves and the
have-nots. And all those republican businesses moving
their labor off-shore over the past four decades.


You certainly will not help that situation by legislating an
artificially high wage to jobs that do not provide that level of
return for the business.
All you are doing is assuring that unskilled labor will be replaced by
more machines.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 13:10:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 1:58:46 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:24:51 +0100, Bod
wrote:

On 19/04/2021 14:04, trader_4 wrote:
Lumber has skyrocketed over the last two years, most common lumber
doubling, or tripling in price. Among the reasons? Trump's tariffs on
Canada substantially reduced Canadian imports, while raising prices.
I hope the Trumpets are happy.

Yup, here's more info:

'Fed study finds Trump tariffs backfired'

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/fe...red-2019-12-27
The use of "backfire" in this headline makes the implicit assumption
that the goal of the tariffs was to make life better for a large number
of Americans.

People of all types, reporters, columnists, pundits, politicians,
"average Americans", and foreigners make this mistake all the time. The
people I just listed here still don't recognize that trump is a
sociopath or they don't understand all that that means. They think it
means someone who spits on the sidewalk or is rude. They don't imagine
someone who conjures up imaginative ways to hurt as many people as
possible.

In fact, the goal of the tariffs was to make life worse for all but
those selling lumber from USA sources, and it did that. The tariffs
were a success.

But don't imagine that the main goal was increased profit for American
lumber suppliers. That was a side benefit**. The main goal was to make
housing unaffordable for poor people, for the lower middle class, and to
force the middle class into smaller houses.

As much as I despise Trump, even I think the above is nuts. Trump himself
doesn't benefit by screwing the middle class, forcing them into smaller
houses? WTF?

Trump was under the mistaken belief that if we made imported
goods more expensive we would start making things here

Nope, make more there.

and Americans would happily pay more to buy American

He didn't even consider that.

but if that was the case, we wouldn't have sent our
manufacturing off to the 3d world in the first place.

IBM figured that out during the Clinton administration and went from
"6 Sigma" to "Market Driven Quality". Basically "Think like Walmart"
(Sam Walton's business model was even part of the pitch)
The cheap *******s don't want real quality, they just want a cheap
price.

They laid off half the company in the next 5 years.

For a different reason, they completely ****ed
up the move away from mainframes and minis.

Do you find it hard to believe that this would be the *main* goal?

Yes, because it makes no sense. I think Trump did his tariffs because he
figured he was going to help all American workers, help our economy,
that we've had unfair competition from foreign countries for too long.
The problem is he directed that everywhere, not where it belonged, eg
China.
And instead of having a coordinated strategy with our allies against
China,
Trump attacked them, levied tariffs on them too. He's stupid, he doesn't
understand economics or trade, but there is no evidence he did it to screw
American workers. And mostly he didn't screw them, we reached record
low unemployment, real income increased substantially and taxes were
lowered. Some in certain industries hurt by tariffs did get screwed.

I hadn't really been paying attention but it looks like Biden is not happy
about Canada dumping government subsidized lumber here either.

It isnt govt subsidised timber and it isnt being dumped.

I wondered why he hasn't said **** about dropping the tariffs.

Got other more urgent things to do first.

OTOH a large part of his caucus is against logging anyway

Unlikely given how much timber is used in your houses.

so they don't mind this. I guess they think we will
build houses out of recycled milk jugs or something.

Unlikely they are that ignorant.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:58:53 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 18:14:55 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:24:51 +0100, Bod wrote:

On 19/04/2021 14:04, trader_4 wrote:
Lumber has skyrocketed over the last two years, most common lumber
doubling, or tripling in price. Among the reasons? Trump's
tariffs
on
Canada substantially reduced Canadian imports, while raising prices.
I hope the Trumpets are happy.

Yup, here's more info:

'Fed study finds Trump tariffs backfired'

https://www.marke****ch.com/story/fe...red-2019-12-27


The ironic thing is that since China is not buying our logs our timber
industry is suffering.

Cite?

You will like this one, they blame it on Trump.

https://qz.com/1934494/us-timber-ind...-and-covid-19/
We have a lumber shortage but logs are a glut
on the market.

As I understand it, the primary raw lumber exports
to China are hardwoods (Walnut, Cherry, et alia) and
China placed retaliatory tariffs on them, thanks to
your buddy trump.

Most domestic softwood (construction lumber) imports come from Canada.

We still grow a lot of softwoods here. Have you ever been out of town
to the forests just east and northeast of you?

They have so much softwoods they cut it, pile it up and burn it.

Why the **** would they pay anyone to do that ?

When we were in South Dakota the logging roads were lined
with "slash piles" of ponderosa pines and other conifers that
they were going to burn as soon as it snowed.

We just can't mill it up and sell it much cheaper than what it costs
now.

Still no point in cutting it and burning it.

They do it to prevent the devastating kinds of fires
they have in California where cutting trees is a sin.

That's bull****. You don't clear fell to prevent devastating fires.

The folks in the Dakotas were culling out
the excess trees to reduce the fuel load,

That's not LOGGING ROADS.

then they burned it in the winter when the threat of
wild fire was nil. They were trying to prevent this

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/dakota/Jasp...rs%20later.jpg

BULL****. They are in fact burning the useless
timber that's inevitable with clear felling.

Thinning out forest doesn't prevent forest fires, stupid.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 17:01:13 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
mill capacity to turn logs into lumber.
That is only going to get worse with Biden's $15 minimum wage.
We are rapidly pricing the US out of the job market.
Then we ask why a ship getting stuck in a canal half way around the
world causes shortages here.




Some of the jobs are pricing theirselfs out of business. Saw where a
couple of grocery stores in California closed up because the government
put in a $ 4 an hour hazard work pay.

The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will be
mostly be replaced by robots.

I remember working for a grocery store as a teen. We stocked the
shelves, but bagged the groceries and even rolled them to the car and
put them in the car. Now the check out person only has to slid the
items over the computer interface and bag the groceries.


They are doing a lot more self checkout here
with one employee watching 6-8 scanner stations.

The best of ours watch twice that many.

People are checking themselves out, bagging their
stuff and paying without involving anyone unless
something goes wrong or they need to show an ID.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 22:09:54 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:


wrote:
Most domestic softwood (construction lumber) imports come from Canada.

We still grow a lot of softwoods here. Have you ever been out of town
to the forests just east and northeast of you?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

"most domestic softwood _imports_ come from Canada".

I didn't say

"all softwood is imported from canada".

Do you see the difference?

Given that the USA doesn't produce 100% of it's softwood lumber,
it must need import. Since the imports are down (and the
tariffs are higher), supply and demand drives the price.

It is not really a shortage of wood, it is the processing that we
don't do and I doubt we will expand that capability as long as it is
cheaper to import.

Hard to explain why its cheaper to import from Canada
which has the same wage levels as the USA tho.

And yes, I've visited every corner of my state. The vast
majority of which was clear-cut over the last 150 years.
You easterners have no clue about California, it appears.

You know there are a bunch of other states out there. There are also
forests scattered throughout Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Idaho,
Montana, Western Wyoming and South Dakota. We have hiked in
the woods in all of them. There is no shortage of wood.

Not all wood is as useful for construction tho.

Note that outside of the sierra, the vast majority
of lumber is not suitable for lumber (e.g. various
live oak species and other hardwoods).

Who said anything about live oaks? Even in Florida where live
oaks are weeds, we grow a ****load of Southern Yellow Pine
that makes excellent lumber. The same is true all over the South.

But what matters is the cost of the land its grown on, stupid.

On 4/19/2021 9:00 PM, wrote:


The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will be
mostly be replaced by robots.

Your spelling and grammar skills are on par with your logical thinking
skills. The USA is far different now than it was fifty years ago, including
a much larger population and a wider gap between the haves and the
have-nots. And all those republican businesses moving
their labor off-shore over the past four decades.


You certainly will not help that situation by legislating an
artificially high wage to jobs that do not provide that level of
return for the business.
All you are doing is assuring that unskilled labor will be replaced by
more machines.


Agree that $15 is too high for some jobs but $7.25 is slave wages and
has not kept up with inflation.

You need balance. If you want to keep jobs in the USA you have to pay
enough for people to buy the products we make.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On 4/19/2021 9:00 PM, wrote:


The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will
be
mostly be replaced by robots.

Your spelling and grammar skills are on par with your logical thinking
skills. The USA is far different now than it was fifty years ago,
including
a much larger population and a wider gap between the haves and the
have-nots. And all those republican businesses moving
their labor off-shore over the past four decades.


You certainly will not help that situation by legislating an
artificially high wage to jobs that do not provide that level of
return for the business.
All you are doing is assuring that unskilled labor will be replaced by
more machines.


Agree that $15 is too high for some jobs but $7.25 is slave wages

Slaves dont get paid wages, they get flogged if they dont work hard
enough.

and has not kept up with inflation.

Thats very arguable with the stuff minimum wage people spend their money
on.

You need balance. If you want to keep jobs in the USA

There hasnt been an unemployment problem
in the USA for a hell of a long time now and
that with vast numbers of illegals many of
whom dont even get the minimum wage.

you have to pay enough for people to buy the products we make.

Mindlessly superficial.

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 23:32:13 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 4/19/2021 9:00 PM, wrote:


The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will be
mostly be replaced by robots.

Your spelling and grammar skills are on par with your logical thinking
skills. The USA is far different now than it was fifty years ago, including
a much larger population and a wider gap between the haves and the
have-nots. And all those republican businesses moving
their labor off-shore over the past four decades.


You certainly will not help that situation by legislating an
artificially high wage to jobs that do not provide that level of
return for the business.
All you are doing is assuring that unskilled labor will be replaced by
more machines.


Agree that $15 is too high for some jobs but $7.25 is slave wages and
has not kept up with inflation.

It is not that far off if you look at the minimum wage in say 1964 and
put it into an inflation calculator.

You need balance. If you want to keep jobs in the USA you have to pay
enough for people to buy the products we make.

I am not sure the intent was for minimum wage people to buy that much.
If you are an adult and only capable of making minimum wage even down
here in a coolie wage state like Florida, you really need to reassess
your life.
My wife's club started landscape guys and kitchen help at $11 4 years
ago and they could be making $16 after they were there a while ...
with benefits.

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 14:10:45 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the useless trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Sqwertz to Rodent Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 11:23:26 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the useless trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On 4/20/2021 1:08 AM, wrote:


Agree that $15 is too high for some jobs but $7.25 is slave wages and
has not kept up with inflation.

It is not that far off if you look at the minimum wage in say 1964 and
put it into an inflation calculator.

You need balance. If you want to keep jobs in the USA you have to pay
enough for people to buy the products we make.

I am not sure the intent was for minimum wage people to buy that much.
If you are an adult and only capable of making minimum wage even down
here in a coolie wage state like Florida, you really need to reassess
your life.
My wife's club started landscape guys and kitchen help at $11 4 years
ago and they could be making $16 after they were there a while ...
with benefits.


Unfortunately some people were born with minimal ability to reassess
their lives. They still have to eat, buy clothing, and want to keep out
of the rain when they sleep. Hard to do when the minimum wage has been
7.25 for years.

The 1964 minimum wage was 1.15. That is equal to 9.86 today and you say
not far off?
https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

That is a difference of $104 a week. Huge for a low wage earner.

Your wife sounds reasonable. McD's is advertising $10, Amazon is $15 to
start. Good for them. If you can;t pay $10 you probably are an
incompetent business person.

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 6:13:53 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Ralph Mowery writes:
In article ,
says...
mill capacity to turn logs into lumber.
That is only going to get worse with Biden's $15 minimum wage.
We are rapidly pricing the US out of the job market.
Then we ask why a ship getting stuck in a canal half way around the
world causes shortages here.




Some of the jobs are pricing theirselfs out of business. Saw where a
couple of grocery stores in California closed up because the government
put in a $ 4 an hour hazard work pay.
There are thousands of grocery stories in california. Two of them,
owned by the same conservative republican company closed due to the
temporary covid hazard pay requirement.

That's not even a drop in the bucket.

Also from economics 101 what would be expected is that all the grocery
stores would raise prices enough to cover the new increased costs, not
that they would start closing. People still need groceries and are going
to pay the slightly higher prices that the new reqt would create. In the
overall cost structure, I'd bet it would result in such a small price increase
that customers would not even know it.




The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will be
mostly be replaced by robots.
Your spelling and grammar skills are on par with your logical thinking
skills. The USA is far different now than it was fifty years ago, including
a much larger population and a wider gap between the haves and the
have-nots. And all those republican businesses moving
their labor off-shore over the past four decades.

Right, no Democrat owned businesses would ever do that. Nor would any
Democrat go to Walmart to take advantage of all the low cost imports
that make up the majority of their business.

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 1:08:51 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 23:32:13 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 4/19/2021 9:00 PM, wrote:


The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will be
mostly be replaced by robots.

Your spelling and grammar skills are on par with your logical thinking
skills. The USA is far different now than it was fifty years ago, including
a much larger population and a wider gap between the haves and the
have-nots. And all those republican businesses moving
their labor off-shore over the past four decades.


You certainly will not help that situation by legislating an
artificially high wage to jobs that do not provide that level of
return for the business.
All you are doing is assuring that unskilled labor will be replaced by
more machines.


Agree that $15 is too high for some jobs but $7.25 is slave wages and
has not kept up with inflation.

It is not that far off if you look at the minimum wage in say 1964 and
put it into an inflation calculator.

I was always was kind of middle of the road when it comes to the min wage.
On the one hand, there is an argument for letting the market determine the
price. But I'm coming more to the side of not having a problem with raising
the min wage to $15. Like you say, in the early 70s the min wage was $1.60.
Adjust that for inflation and you'd be around $15 now. The other argument
for having a decent min wage is that we should be making working be a
rewarding experience, for people to feel adequately compensated, that it's
worth working instead of collecting public assistance. But Republicans don't
seem to recognize that angle, which is consistent with what Republicans
say they believe. Or used to believe anyway. Seems now they are just a cult
that don't really know what they believe, other than that Democrats and masks
are evil and not to get vaccinated.

writes:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 23:32:13 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 4/19/2021 9:00 PM, wrote:


The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will be
mostly be replaced by robots.

Your spelling and grammar skills are on par with your logical thinking
skills. The USA is far different now than it was fifty years ago, including
a much larger population and a wider gap between the haves and the
have-nots. And all those republican businesses moving
their labor off-shore over the past four decades.


You certainly will not help that situation by legislating an
artificially high wage to jobs that do not provide that level of
return for the business.
All you are doing is assuring that unskilled labor will be replaced by
more machines.


Agree that $15 is too high for some jobs but $7.25 is slave wages and
has not kept up with inflation.

It is not that far off if you look at the minimum wage in say 1964 and
put it into an inflation calculator.

Well, it's not 1964, and it hasn't been 1964 for a long damn time.

What, pray tell, was the minimum wage in 1964, and what percentage
of the labor force was being paid minimum wage?


You need balance. If you want to keep jobs in the USA you have to pay
enough for people to buy the products we make.

I am not sure the intent was for minimum wage people to buy that much.

WTF?

If you are an adult and only capable of making minimum wage even down
here in a coolie wage state like Florida, you really need to reassess
your life.

WTF?

trader_4 writes:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 6:13:53 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Ralph Mowery writes:

The fast food places that were mostly maned by teenagers when I was
growing up are now adult jobs. If the pay gets high enough they will be
mostly be replaced by robots.
Your spelling and grammar skills are on par with your logical thinking
skills. The USA is far different now than it was fifty years ago, including
a much larger population and a wider gap between the haves and the
have-nots. And all those republican businesses moving
their labor off-shore over the past four decades.

Right, no Democrat owned businesses would ever do that. Nor would any
Democrat go to Walmart to take advantage of all the low cost imports
that make up the majority of their business.

Personally, I don't believe I've ever walked through the door
of a Walmart.