Just put in a new led ceiling light in bedroom, 3 wires, the third capped and taped.
The leds glow with the wall switched off. How is that posible? Installed with breaker off, hand twisted nuts and tape. Does the light retain x for a time?

On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 12:44:17 -0800 (PST), Thomas
wrote:

Just put in a new led ceiling light in bedroom, 3 wires, the third capped and taped.
The leds glow with the wall switched off. How is that posible? Installed with breaker off, hand twisted nuts and tape. Does the light retain x for a time?

It may glow for a minute or so as the capacitors in the power supply
discharge but it should go out. If this is not just a regular snap
switch but some kind of electronic switching, there can be enough
leakage in the triac to keep it from going off or just make it flash.

On 2019-12-08 1:44 p.m., Thomas wrote:
Just put in a new led ceiling light in bedroom, 3 wires, the third capped and taped.
The leds glow with the wall switched off. How is that posible? Installed with breaker off, hand twisted nuts and tape. Does the light retain x for a time?

nope , you did it wrong

On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 12:44:17 -0800 (PST), Thomas
wrote:

Just put in a new led ceiling light in bedroom, 3 wires, the third capped and taped.
The leds glow with the wall switched off. How is that posible? Installed with breaker off, hand twisted nuts and tape. Does the light retain x for a time?
Does your switch have a "pilot light" or "night light" in it???? And
what do you mean 3 wires - third capped????

On 12/8/2019 12:44 PM, Thomas wrote:
Just put in a new led ceiling light in bedroom, 3 wires, the third capped and taped.
The leds glow with the wall switched off. How is that posible? Installed with breaker off, hand twisted nuts and tape. Does the light retain x for a time?


Are you using an X10 remote module on it? The sensing current it passes
for switch control does that. If you turn a swith off then on, the
module turns on the power. Some LEDs go all the way out. Others will
glow even when off.

In article , says...

Are you using an X10 remote module on it? The sensing current it passes
for switch control does that. If you turn a swith off then on, the
module turns on the power. Some LEDs go all the way out. Others will
glow even when off.



Alolng the same line, has anyone had that same problem using the
switches and modules of the newer Alexa and Google home controlers ?

I know from a friend that has the X10 system that he sometimes had a
problem like that. I just do not know anyone that has the newer voice
units and their modules.

On 12/9/19 1:16 AM, Bob F wrote:
On 12/8/2019 12:44 PM, Thomas wrote:
Just put in a new led ceiling light in bedroom, 3 wires, the third
capped and taped.
The leds glow with the wall switched off. How is that posible?
Installed with breaker off, hand twisted nuts and tape. Does the light
retain x for a time?


Are you using an X10 remote module on it? The sensing current it passes
for switch control does that. If you turn a swith off then on, the
module turns on the power. Some LEDs go all the way out. Others will
glow even when off.

X10 switches were designed for tungsten bulbs and often have problems
with LED/CFL/electronic loads. I use a couple like that and get it to
work right by adding a small resistive load that draws about 15mA (1.8W
when on 120V).

I also see this problem when using solid-state relays to control holiday
lights. For this purpose I created several "offer" plugs using the
male/female end of a holiday light string and a 8.6Kohm 2W resistor.

--
16 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Fear prophets ... and those prepared to die for the truth, for as a
rule they make many others die with them, often before them, at times
instead of them." -- Umberto Eco

No x ten no alexa but I have both. There was an old 2 wire light on a wall switch.
This has 3 wires so I capped the white. There is no box to ground to, just 2 wires.
It glowed all night.
Brand Portfolio mxl306 led32k840 2.
Lowes for about 70 bucks.
The glow is not visible when day.

Thomas writes:
No x ten no alexa but I have both. There was an old 2 wire light on a wall switch.
This has 3 wires so I capped the white. There is no box to ground to, just 2 wires.
It glowed all night.
Brand Portfolio mxl306 led32k840 2.
Lowes for about 70 bucks.
The glow is not visible when day.

Hire an electrician. Soon.

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 4:30:33 PM UTC-5, Thomas wrote:
No x ten no alexa but I have both. There was an old 2 wire light on a wall switch.
This has 3 wires so I capped the white. There is no box to ground to, just 2 wires.
It glowed all night.
Brand Portfolio mxl306 led32k840 2.
Lowes for about 70 bucks.
The glow is not visible when day.

The light has three wires, blk, wht, grn, yes? And you capped the WHITE?
The blk and wht are the power for the light, the grn is ground. If this
is a very old installation, no ground, then you don't connect the ground.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 10:14:24 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

Are you using an X10 remote module on it? The sensing current it passes
for switch control does that. If you turn a swith off then on, the
module turns on the power. Some LEDs go all the way out. Others will
glow even when off.



Alolng the same line, has anyone had that same problem using the
switches and modules of the newer Alexa and Google home controlers ?

I know from a friend that has the X10 system that he sometimes had a
problem like that. I just do not know anyone that has the newer voice
units and their modules.
The "appliance modules" work. Regular "light switch" mosules
generally do not work properly with LED lights. The difference is
appliance modules "generally" use a relay. You can easily tell the
difference. The relay ones "click" pretty loudly. The solid state
units are virtually silent.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 13:30:27 -0800 (PST), Thomas
wrote:

No x ten no alexa but I have both. There was an old 2 wire light on a wall switch.
This has 3 wires so I capped the white. There is no box to ground to, just 2 wires.
It glowed all night.
Brand Portfolio mxl306 led32k840 2.
Lowes for about 70 bucks.
The glow is not visible when day.
If you capped the white what wires did you use?? What brand and model
is the light?

On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 13:30:27 -0800 (PST), Thomas
wrote:

No x ten no alexa but I have both. There was an old 2 wire light on a wall switch.
This has 3 wires so I capped the white. There is no box to ground to, just 2 wires.
It glowed all night.
Brand Portfolio mxl306 led32k840 2.
Lowes for about 70 bucks.
The glow is not visible when day.
You most certainly did NOT follow the wiring instructions. The WHITE
wire MUST be used. The green (safety ground) is the only wire that
MIGHT not be connected Unless the wiringis pre-sixties or totally
screwed up there WILL be a bare ground. You state there is no box -
which would make it an illegal installation.

Call an electrician.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 13:54:01 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 4:30:33 PM UTC-5, Thomas wrote:
No x ten no alexa but I have both. There was an old 2 wire light on a wall switch.
This has 3 wires so I capped the white. There is no box to ground to, just 2 wires.
It glowed all night.
Brand Portfolio mxl306 led32k840 2.
Lowes for about 70 bucks.
The glow is not visible when day.

The light has three wires, blk, wht, grn, yes? And you capped the WHITE?
The blk and wht are the power for the light, the grn is ground. If this
is a very old installation, no ground, then you don't connect the ground.


Sounds more like a 3 way switch loop if this is an old installation.
BTW you better get used to a capped white wire in boxes with switches.
The 2011 and beyond code requires bring a neutral to every switch
location, even if it is just a simple switch loop. It probably means
the end of the switch loop as we know it. Switch boxes may become that
cludge we used to see in a ceiling box.

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 12:29:56 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 13:54:01 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 4:30:33 PM UTC-5, Thomas wrote:
No x ten no alexa but I have both. There was an old 2 wire light on a wall switch.
This has 3 wires so I capped the white. There is no box to ground to, just 2 wires.
It glowed all night.
Brand Portfolio mxl306 led32k840 2.
Lowes for about 70 bucks.
The glow is not visible when day.

The light has three wires, blk, wht, grn, yes? And you capped the WHITE?
The blk and wht are the power for the light, the grn is ground. If this
is a very old installation, no ground, then you don't connect the ground.


Sounds more like a 3 way switch loop if this is an old installation.
BTW you better get used to a capped white wire in boxes with switches.

Probably not capped in most boxes though. To do a light, you run the
romex into the switch, another run to the light. The white/neutral
is connected. If it's a 3 ways switch, then you'd have to run an unused
neutral.


The 2011 and beyond code requires bring a neutral to every switch
location, even if it is just a simple switch loop. It probably means
the end of the switch loop as we know it. Switch boxes may become that
cludge we used to see in a ceiling box.

Here almost every switch box I've encountered has had a neutral.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 09:25:41 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 12:29:56 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 13:54:01 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 4:30:33 PM UTC-5, Thomas wrote:
No x ten no alexa but I have both. There was an old 2 wire light on a wall switch.
This has 3 wires so I capped the white. There is no box to ground to, just 2 wires.
It glowed all night.
Brand Portfolio mxl306 led32k840 2.
Lowes for about 70 bucks.
The glow is not visible when day.

The light has three wires, blk, wht, grn, yes? And you capped the WHITE?
The blk and wht are the power for the light, the grn is ground. If this
is a very old installation, no ground, then you don't connect the ground.


Sounds more like a 3 way switch loop if this is an old installation.
BTW you better get used to a capped white wire in boxes with switches.

Probably not capped in most boxes though. To do a light, you run the
romex into the switch, another run to the light. The white/neutral
is connected. If it's a 3 ways switch, then you'd have to run an unused
neutral.

You always use 3 wires for a 3 way unless you are using that illegal
west coast thing.


The 2011 and beyond code requires bring a neutral to every switch
location, even if it is just a simple switch loop. It probably means
the end of the switch loop as we know it. Switch boxes may become that
cludge we used to see in a ceiling box.

Here almost every switch box I've encountered has had a neutral.

Then it is not a switch loop

On 12/9/19 5:08 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

The "appliance modules" work. Regular "light switch" mosules
generally do not work properly with LED lights. The difference is
appliance modules "generally" use a relay. You can easily tell the
difference. The relay ones "click" pretty loudly. The solid state
units are virtually silent.

That's true about the relays, but all modules will pass a small current
through the load when "off". This allows the "local control" feature,
and can cause trouble with small or inconsistent loads.

--
15 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"If God made us in His image we have certainly returned the compliment."
[Voltaire]

Pulled it off the ceiling. Black on black, white on white, the yellow ground that is connected to the frame is wire nutted and taped.
2 wires. Glows when off. The wall switch only turns this on, no other appliance.
Just pulled the switch faceplate. 2 wires. Not sure where they go. I originally did not cap the white. My own mispoken words concerned me. Got dressed this am with breaker off and flashlight.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 00:29:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 13:54:01 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 4:30:33 PM UTC-5, Thomas wrote:
No x ten no alexa but I have both. There was an old 2 wire light on a wall switch.
This has 3 wires so I capped the white. There is no box to ground to, just 2 wires.
It glowed all night.
Brand Portfolio mxl306 led32k840 2.
Lowes for about 70 bucks.
The glow is not visible when day.

The light has three wires, blk, wht, grn, yes? And you capped the WHITE?
The blk and wht are the power for the light, the grn is ground. If this
is a very old installation, no ground, then you don't connect the ground.


Sounds more like a 3 way switch loop if this is an old installation.
BTW you better get used to a capped white wire in boxes with switches.
The 2011 and beyond code requires bring a neutral to every switch
location, even if it is just a simple switch loop. It probably means
the end of the switch loop as we know it. Switch boxes may become that
cludge we used to see in a ceiling box.
He said 3 wires on the fixture but only 2 wires coming in so he
capped off the white on the fixture - unless I read him wrong. In ANY
event - installation with "no box" to ground it to is illegal -
against code.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 13:16:42 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/9/19 5:08 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

The "appliance modules" work. Regular "light switch" mosules
generally do not work properly with LED lights. The difference is
appliance modules "generally" use a relay. You can easily tell the
difference. The relay ones "click" pretty loudly. The solid state
units are virtually silent.

That's true about the relays, but all modules will pass a small current
through the load when "off". This allows the "local control" feature,
and can cause trouble with small or inconsistent loads.
On a relayed system the ghost current does NOT run through the load
if properly wired.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 12:44:52 -0800 (PST), Thomas
wrote:

Pulled it off the ceiling. Black on black, white on white, the yellow ground that is connected to the frame is wire nutted and taped.
2 wires. Glows when off. The wall switch only turns this on, no other appliance.
Just pulled the switch faceplate. 2 wires. Not sure where they go. I originally did not cap the white. My own mispoken words concerned me. Got dressed this am with breaker off and flashlight.
Check the wires coming into the switch. With the lamp disconnected.
Do you have power on one pair???? If not you have a switch loop - but
then you should only have one pair. With the wires disconnected from
the switch, do you have power at the light (light still disconnected)
You should not unless you DO have a switch loop. If you only have one
pair at the lamp it is almost 100% sure you do NOT have a switch loop.
Assuming you do NOT have a switch loop, connect the wires to the
light - (the light will (should) not come on). Tie the whites together
in the switch box. Light should still be off - not even a glimmer.
Then connect the blacks inthe box. The light should come on. If
everything works according to this procedure you had a leaky switch.
Get a switch that does NOT have a "night-light" feature and install
it.

The "night light" feature lights upthe switch when the light is turned
off by putting a low wattage lamp of some sort (neon, LED or
incandescent) across the terminals of the switch. The current to light
the "night light" flows through the "load" which may be sufficient to
make the led glow.

The 2011 and beyond code requires bring a neutral to every switch
location, even if it is just a simple switch loop.

Can you tell us the reasoning behind this code?

I'm not saying you are wrong, just asking why they would want this.

thanks

m

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 9:15:18 AM UTC-5, wrote:
The 2011 and beyond code requires bring a neutral to every switch
location, even if it is just a simple switch loop.

Can you tell us the reasoning behind this code?

I'm not saying you are wrong, just asking why they would want this.

thanks

m

To be able to power smart switches directly so as to avoid the big problems
with trying to do it by stealing power through the load.

On 12/10/19 7:48 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

That's true about the relays, but all modules will pass a small current
through the load when "off". This allows the "local control" feature,
and can cause trouble with small or inconsistent loads.
On a relayed system the ghost current does NOT run through the load
if properly wired.

Where would it go, and what good would it do? It's there to sense the
operation of the load's switch.

--
14 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"A hundred thousand lemmings can't be wrong."

On 12/10/19 2:44 PM, Thomas wrote:
Pulled it off the ceiling. Black on black, white on white, the yellow ground that is connected to the frame is wire nutted and taped.
2 wires. Glows when off. The wall switch only turns this on, no other appliance.
Just pulled the switch faceplate. 2 wires. Not sure where they go. I originally did not cap the white. My own mispoken words concerned me. Got dressed this am with breaker off and flashlight.

I have some ceiling boxes with TWO hot wires, one switched and the other
always on. This is for a ceiling fan, where the wall switch is just for
the light. The fan uses its own switch. Could you have something like
that, and used thw wrong wire?

--
14 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"A hundred thousand lemmings can't be wrong."

On 12/10/19 7:48 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

On a relayed system the ghost current does NOT run through the load
if properly wired.

It's connected to the hot wire going to the load. Where's the detour?

--
14 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

"God is a concept by which we measure our pain." [John Lennon (1940-80)]

On 12/11/19 8:15 AM, wrote:

The 2011 and beyond code requires bring a neutral to every switch
location, even if it is just a simple switch loop.

Can you tell us the reasoning behind this code?

I'm not saying you are wrong, just asking why they would want this.

thanks

m

The neutral is for use with switches (like a timer or home automation
device) that require a little power themselves. Some can get that power
through the load, but that does not work well when the load is something
other than an incandescent bulb.

--
14 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"A hundred thousand lemmings can't be wrong."

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 10:49:00 AM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/10/19 7:48 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

That's true about the relays, but all modules will pass a small current
through the load when "off". This allows the "local control" feature,
and can cause trouble with small or inconsistent loads.
On a relayed system the ghost current does NOT run through the load
if properly wired.

Where would it go, and what good would it do? It's there to sense the
operation of the load's switch.

--
14 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"A hundred thousand lemmings can't be wrong."

There are two types of X-10 or similar devices. One type uses the path
through the load for a small current to power the devices circuitry,
eg the RF receiver. That small current poses no issues with incandescent
and similar loads, but if it's an LED or CFL, then it probably will flicker
or partially light. Those devices just use two wires, no neutral. An
example is an X-10 wall switch. The advantage is that it can go into
any switch location, it does not use a neutral.

The other type uses the neutral so that it doesn't have any current flowing
through the load when the device is off. An example of that is the X-10
appliance module that plugs into a receptacle and then the load plugs into
it. It gets it's power between hot and neutral at the receptacle.
Like the other poster said, it uses a relay for the load, there is no current
in the load when it's off.

The code has been updated to require a neutral at all switch locations,
that will allow switches that connect to the neutral to be used,
eliminating the problems with LED, CFL flickering or partially lighting
with the switches that don't use a neutral.

In article , lid says...

The 2011 and beyond code requires bring a neutral to every switch
location, even if it is just a simple switch loop.

Can you tell us the reasoning behind this code?

I'm not saying you are wrong, just asking why they would want this.

thanks

m

The neutral is for use with switches (like a timer or home automation
device) that require a little power themselves. Some can get that power
through the load, but that does not work well when the load is something
other than an incandescent bulb.



Yes, it used to be simple in the house. Just a normal switch to turn a
light off and on. Maybe a few 3 way switches. Now we are starting to
see many installing the 'smart speakers' and other devices. Just say
'Alexa turn on the light'. The smart switches need the hot and neutral
to power them. There are fewer incadescent bulbs being used.

Many houses used to have the wiring going over head to the light
fixtuer. From there a hot wire was ran to the wall switch and back to
the light. No easy way to retro fit a smart switch powered by the AC.
Some have came out with batteries that have to be changed every so
often.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 06:15:13 -0800 (PST), wrote:


The 2011 and beyond code requires bring a neutral to every switch
location, even if it is just a simple switch loop.

Can you tell us the reasoning behind this code?

I'm not saying you are wrong, just asking why they would want this.

thanks

m

It is to support "smart" switching devices without using the ground
for a neutral.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 11:18:37 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , lid says...

The 2011 and beyond code requires bring a neutral to every switch
location, even if it is just a simple switch loop.

Can you tell us the reasoning behind this code?

I'm not saying you are wrong, just asking why they would want this.

thanks

m

The neutral is for use with switches (like a timer or home automation
device) that require a little power themselves. Some can get that power
through the load, but that does not work well when the load is something
other than an incandescent bulb.



Yes, it used to be simple in the house. Just a normal switch to turn a
light off and on. Maybe a few 3 way switches. Now we are starting to
see many installing the 'smart speakers' and other devices. Just say
'Alexa turn on the light'. The smart switches need the hot and neutral
to power them. There are fewer incadescent bulbs being used.

Many houses used to have the wiring going over head to the light
fixtuer. From there a hot wire was ran to the wall switch and back to
the light. No easy way to retro fit a smart switch powered by the AC.
Some have came out with batteries that have to be changed every so
often.

U/L used to let devices "leak" 500 micro amps or so into the ground,
enough to drive CMOS but no more.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 06:15:13 -0800 (PST), wrote:


The 2011 and beyond code requires bring a neutral to every switch
location, even if it is just a simple switch loop.

Can you tell us the reasoning behind this code?

I'm not saying you are wrong, just asking why they would want this.

thanks

m


Sothere is a neutral available for "smart switches" for one - and to
avoild the ambiguity of having a live white return.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:52:55 -0600, Sam E
wrote:

On 12/10/19 7:48 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

On a relayed system the ghost current does NOT run through the load
if properly wired.

It's connected to the hot wire going to the load. Where's the detour?
You don't understand - On a relayed remote control the remote
control and the controlled load are on separate circuit segnents. The
control circuitry gets power from the black wire to the white wire -
and the load gets power through the relay from the black wire to the
unswitched white neutral. The control and the load are in parallel.

On the electronically switched unit the contol circuitry runs off the
power that flows through the load - it is effectively in SEIES with
the load. The power required to operate the control flows through the
load. On an incandescent lamp that current is so low there is
virtually no voltage drop across the resistance of the cold filament,
and therefore virtually no power is dissipated and the liamp does not
glow.

On an LED lamp the electronics of the lamp have a fixed voltage drop
that is not dependent on current flow - and the led will glow at VERY
low current - so the low current flowing through the controller lights
the light . If the switch has a neutral wire the current does not flow
through the load - but on a switch drop loop on a 2 wire cable there
is no neutral - - - - -

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 3:47:40 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 06:15:13 -0800 (PST), wrote:


The 2011 and beyond code requires bring a neutral to every switch
location, even if it is just a simple switch loop.

Can you tell us the reasoning behind this code?

I'm not saying you are wrong, just asking why they would want this.

thanks

m


Sothere is a neutral available for "smart switches" for one - and to
avoild the ambiguity of having a live white return.

thank you and to the others that replied.
m

Got new switches. Report on saturday or so

On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 15:47:34 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 06:15:13 -0800 (PST), wrote:


The 2011 and beyond code requires bring a neutral to every switch
location, even if it is just a simple switch loop.

Can you tell us the reasoning behind this code?

I'm not saying you are wrong, just asking why they would want this.

thanks

m


Sothere is a neutral available for "smart switches" for one - and to
avoild the ambiguity of having a live white return.

The white is supposed to be the hot feed to the switch, the return is
black. (or some other "ungrounded conductor" color)

200.7(C)(1)
If used for single-pole,
3-way or 4-way switch loops, the re identified conductor
with white or gray insulation or three continuous
white or gray stripes shall be used only for the supply
to the switch, but not as a return conductor from the
switch to the outlet.

On 12/11/19 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

The other type uses the neutral so that it doesn't have any current flowing
through the load when the device is off. An example of that is the X-10
appliance module that plugs into a receptacle and then the load plugs into
it. It gets it's power between hot and neutral at the receptacle.
Like the other poster said, it uses a relay for the load, there is no current
in the load when it's off.

I have used enough X10 switches of different types to know that there IS
current through the load when the switch is off. Also, I've seen
schematic diagrams (such as for an appliance module) that show the path
past the relay for this current.

A receptacle module causes less trouble with this, but it is still NOT
free of load current when off. I have 2 of those in use now, which
require additional load resistors because of this (one controls a CFL,
the other a LCD TV with LED backlight).

The code has been updated to require a neutral at all switch locations,
that will allow switches that connect to the neutral to be used,
eliminating the problems with LED, CFL flickering or partially lighting
with the switches that don't use a neutral.

It doesn't automatically eliminate it, when you consider existing wiring.

--
13 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking."

On 12/11/19 10:18 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

[snip]

Many houses used to have the wiring going over head to the light
fixtuer. From there a hot wire was ran to the wall switch and back to
the light. No easy way to retro fit a smart switch powered by the AC.
Some have came out with batteries that have to be changed every so
often.


I found several of those around here, when I installed ceiling fans. The
box would have a bundle of black wires and a bundle of white wires. The
black bundle would usually have one white (for the switch loop) in it.

--
13 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking."

On 12/11/19 2:59 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

You don't understand - On a relayed remote control the remote
control and the controlled load are on separate circuit segnents

Could you have not tried it?

I just got out an appliance module and connected a string of cheap
Christmas lights. When the module is "off" the lights still glow
(although more dimly than when on).

The usual "solution" I saw on the home automation newsgroup was to add
an incandescent light in parallel. It is enough of a load to reduce the
voltage below the LED threshold (this is 30 LEDs in series).

BTW, If I had designed the X10 appliance modules, what you said would be
true (off would actually be off). It isn't.

[snip]

--
13 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking."

In article , lid says...

I found several of those around here, when I installed ceiling fans. The
box would have a bundle of black wires and a bundle of white wires. The
black bundle would usually have one white (for the switch loop) in it.




I don't know the code now.

Way back it was common to use the same wire that had a black and white,
bare wire for everything. So going to the wall switch you would have
the black, a white that should be marked to black usually by tape and
the bare. When that wire gets back to the junction box, the white wire
should be marked black. The black marking may or may not be done
depending on how sloppy the electrician and inspectors are.

That is because the black ( hot ) wire goes to the switch and is broken
to cut off the current and back to the light. A netural wire should not
be switched.